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The lati twins still give Landorus-I trouble as they always have, but their presence did not allow it to stay in OU last gen. However, landorus requires little team support, is capable of smashing through a large portion of the meta, and can run many different sets, the three most common (that I know of) are sheer force attacker, choice scarf, and swords dance, making it very unpredictable.
On the topic of infernape, it is somewhat powerful and fast, but we've got a new starter that's all the rage for it's power and coverage, and that is greninja.
Also, saying rotom needs to watch out for grass knot proves your ignorance, as the most durable washing machine on the planet is also the ultra-light model, weighing in at around 2 pounds. One more thing, if you're going to be running a mixed set, you only have 4 moveslots and 508 EV's. (technically 510 ev's, but the last 2 don't count.) Meaning that infernape won't be strong enough to severely damage many things will switch in, and won't be able to have thunderpunch/mach punch/grass knot/close combat/HP ice/flare blitz or fire blast. Plus, most of infernape's best checks and counters happen to be some of the most common and effective pokemon in the metagame. The OU tier has become too strong, too fast, or too bulky for infernape to keep up. Infernape is C rank and that is where it will stay until it is demoted yet again.
The lati twins still give Landorus-I trouble as they always have, but their presence did not allow it to stay in OU last gen. However, landorus requires little team support, is capable of smashing through a large portion of the meta, and can run many different sets, the three most common (that I know of) are sheer force attacker, choice scarf, and swords dance, making it very unpredictable.
On the topic of infernape, it is somewhat powerful and fast, but we've got a new starter that's all the rage for it's power and coverage, and that is greninja.
Also, saying rotom needs to watch out for grass knot proves your ignorance, as the most durable washing machine on the planet is also the ultra-light model, weighing in at around 2 pounds. One more thing, if you're going to be running a mixed set, you only have 4 moveslots and 508 EV's. (technically 510 ev's, but the last 2 don't count.) Meaning that infernape won't be strong enough to severely damage many things will switch in, and won't be able to have thunderpunch/mach punch/grass knot/close combat/HP ice/flare blitz or fire blast. Plus, most of infernape's best checks and counters happen to be some of the most common and effective pokemon in the metagame. The OU tier has become too strong, too fast, or too bulky for infernape to keep up. Infernape is C rank and that is where it will stay until it is demoted yet again.
Does knock of take up a more usable slot on the sheer force attacker? Earth Power, psychic and focus blast seem to be mandatory, and sludge wave or u-turn could prove more useful against other threats. (u-turn to smack the latis then get to check/counter for them, and sludge wave to kill syvleon and heavily dent Azu on the switch in)
Does knock of take up a more usable slot on the sheer force attacker? Earth Power, psychic and focus blast seem to be mandatory, and sludge wave or u-turn could prove more useful against other threats. (u-turn to smack the latis then get to check/counter for them, and sludge wave to kill syvleon and heavily dent Azu on the switch in)
You would think that most of Rotom's forms like a lawn mower and a god damn fridge would actually weigh something, especially considering Rotom is just a possessed appliance.
Knock Off's main use is hitting Chansey, which is considered to be a good switch in to Landorus. Hitting Latios and Latias on the switch is just an added bonus.
I am starting to think Infernape should be higher in this ranking thread. B+ rank tops for Infernape and C+ rank lowest. That Iron Fist boosted Mach Punch is still pretty strong and Infernape has nice coverage and is a nice mixed sweeper. I think it's so low becasue people are running the wrong sets(Anti-Lead, Band, Nasty Plot, Sword's Dance, and Scarf) when they should be running a simple Life Orb set. Also another thing, Infernape is easily checked but not straight up walled or countered. Things like Talonflame, Tentacruel, Azumarill have to watch out for Thunder Punch and Rotom Wash has to watch out for Grass Knot and things like Dragonite or Latios have to watch out for HP Ice. His coverage picks his poison and with that in mind you can add teammates to deal with his checks easily. Some checks get straight up 2HKO'd by his moves period and can't switch safely thus letting Infernape get a kill regardless. Just based on using Infernape and the other pokes in that rank I can tell you he does not deserve to be there.
Latios and Latias still at least hard check Ape even with HP Ice, since I'm pretty sure it does like 50% to Latios. Grass Knot does jack to Rotom-W, you use it for destroying Hippowdon stall/Quagsire, CC after SR 2hko's Rotom-W anyways.
Also Infernape is a wall breaker not a sweeper jesus people get it right. :\ I love Infernape, and it isn't completely outclassed, simply due to how it's still really good at wall breaking through stall and his picking off potential with it to beat through set up sweepers its competition cannot, but is incredibly niche in comparison to it's competition as well as not being the easiest thing to fit on a team hence why it hasn't been bumped up.
I completely disagree with Charizard Y moving down to A+. This thing is so monstorously powerful that it can 3HKO the blobs. Those Fire Blasts have some serious power behind them. While Charizard-X has to set up to be dangerous, Charizard Y has immediate power (unmatched at that). Also, Charizard Y can run many different coverage moves while Zard X is almost 100% running DD, Flare Blitz/Fire Punch, Outrage/Dragon Claw, Earthquake. It's walled by Azumarill, Clefable, Quagsire, and Heatran if it opts for roost over EQ. Zard Y can also be walled, but the only consistent ones are the blobs. Zard X also has competition as a Dragon Dance sweeper, while Zard Y has almost none as a Special nuke.
I also disagree with Bisharp dropping, though to a lesser degree. Bisharp is extremely anti-metagame and I've pulled more sweeps with Bisharp than I can count. There's really not much to say that hasn't already been said, but it's ability to use Intimidate, Defog, and Sticky Web against their users is a great asset. It's also got decent enough bulk to take a 2x Super Effective move from most Physical Attackers. Being a Steel type also gives it handy resistances. Being a Dark type makes it the nastiest Knock Off/Sucker Punch user around. It can also set up with Swords Dance or Pursuit trap.
You may look at my team and think that I'm biased based on what I use, but actually I use what I consider to be the best, so that point is moot.
But while I'm on the subject:
Mandibuzz shouldn't drop. Hell, I'd say that it could probably be A+ since it's arguably the best mixed wall. Unlike Skarmory, it can take Special hits, and unlike the blobs, it can take Physical hits. You don't even have to choose! You can mix its EVs any way you reasonably want. It's also great support with a movepool consisting of Defog, Whirlwind, Knock Off, Roost, Foul Play, Toxic, etc!
Greninja is perfect in A+.
Gengar is perfect in A, but he could move to A+ for his versatility. He can run the classic Sub-Disable set, which is always annoying. He can run a Scarf set to be a great revenge killer. He can pull off a surprise Specs Set (kind of outclassed, but still viable). He can even run a fast Taunt set. My personal favorite variant is the double-killer Taunt, Counter, Destiny Bond, Shadow Ball set. It's not common, but it's still a great unexpected set.
As for Dragonite, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that he belongs in the S rank. At least A+. This thing is a monster. Getting Dragonite to +2 Attack is a cinch when you mix Multiscale and Weakness Policy. He also has an immense 134 base Attack with the move any physical sweeper would kill for, Extreme Speed! At +2 with Extreme Speed, Dragonite becomes Bisharp on crack. If you are crafty, you can stack a Dragon Dance on top of Weakness Policy, getting Dragonite to +3 Attack, +1 Speed (AKA "GG") which is only reliably stopped by Clefable and Skarmory (unless you carry Fire or Thunder Punch, in which case Heatran can stop it). But all Pokemon can be stopped easily by SOMETHING, or else they'd be Uber. And keep in mind, this is only one set! Dragonite's movepool is more vast than the amount of my Firebot posts that get deleted by v. It's also a good Choice Band user. It can go special with it's diverse special movepool that shines most in the rain. It can run a bulky set with Roost. It can Parashuffle. You can even run a Scarf set for the sheer surprise (possibly deadly surprise).
So I'm nominating Dragonite, Charizard Y, and Bisharp for S-Rank!
I'm also nominating Mandibuzz and Gengar for A+ Rank!
Later I'll do a post about other Pokemon that are not on my team that I think should move up or down.
I completely disagree with Charizard Y moving down to A+. This thing is so monstorously powerful that it can 3HKO the blobs. Those Fire Blasts have some serious power behind them. While Charizard-X has to set up to be dangerous, Charizard Y has immediate power (unmatched at that). Also, Charizard Y can run many different coverage moves while Zard X is almost 100% running DD, Flare Blitz/Fire Punch, Outrage/Dragon Claw, Earthquake. It's walled by Azumarill, Clefable, Quagsire, and Heatran if it opts for roost over EQ. Zard Y can also be walled, but the only consistent ones are the blobs. Zard X also has competition as a Dragon Dance sweeper, while Zard Y has almost none as a Special nuke.
I also disagree with Bisharp dropping, though to a lesser degree. Bisharp is extremely anti-metagame and I've pulled more sweeps with Bisharp than I can count. There's really not much to say that hasn't already been said, but it's ability to use Intimidate, Defog, and Sticky Web against their users is a great asset. It's also got decent enough bulk to take a 2x Super Effective move from most Physical Attackers. Being a Steel type also gives it handy resistances. Being a Dark type makes it the nastiest Knock Off/Sucker Punch user around. It can also set up with Swords Dance or Pursuit trap.
You may look at my team and think that I'm biased based on what I use, but actually I use what I consider to be the best, so that point is moot.
But while I'm on the subject:
Mandibuzz shouldn't drop. Hell, I'd say that it could probably be A+ since it's arguably the best mixed wall. Unlike Skarmory, it can take Special hits, and unlike the blobs, it can take Physical hits. You don't even have to choose! You can mix its EVs any way you reasonably want. It's also great support with a movepool consisting of Defog, Whirlwind, Knock Off, Roost, Foul Play, Toxic, etc!
Greninja is perfect in A+.
Gengar is perfect in A, but he could move to A+ for his versatility. He can run the classic Sub-Disable set, which is always annoying. He can run a Scarf set to be a great revenge killer. He can pull off a surprise Specs Set (kind of outclassed, but still viable). He can even run a fast Taunt set. My personal favorite variant is the double-killer Taunt, Counter, Destiny Bond, Shadow Ball set. It's not common, but it's still a great unexpected set.
As for Dragonite, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that he belongs in the S rank. At least A+. This thing is a monster. Getting Dragonite to +2 Attack is a cinch when you mix Multiscale and Weakness Policy. He also has an immense 134 base Attack with the move any physical sweeper would kill for, Extreme Speed! At +2 with Extreme Speed, Dragonite becomes Bisharp on crack. If you are crafty, you can stack a Dragon Dance on top of Weakness Policy, getting Dragonite to +3 Attack, +1 Speed (AKA "GG") which is only reliably stopped by Clefable and Skarmory (unless you carry Fire or Thunder Punch, in which case Heatran can stop it). But all Pokemon can be stopped easily by SOMETHING, or else they'd be Uber. And keep in mind, this is only one set! Dragonite's movepool is more vast than the amount of my Firebot posts that get deleted by v. It's also a good Choice Band user. It can go special with it's diverse special movepool that shines most in the rain. It can run a bulky set with Roost. It can Parashuffle. You can even run a Scarf set for the sheer surprise (possibly deadly surprise).
So I'm nominating Dragonite, Charizard Y, and Bisharp for S-Rank!
I'm also nominating Mandibuzz and Gengar for A+ Rank!
Later I'll do a post about other Pokemon that are not on my team that I think should move up or down.
I agree with Charizard Y, honestly, but Dragonite is good, but not that good. It's A-rank in my opinion, nothing more. Bisharp is also fine right where it is. However, I strongly disagree with Mandibuzz and Gengar moving, Mandibuzz is ok, but it's not as amazing as you make it out to be. What hits is it taking exactly? It's not comparable to Skarmory bar the Defensive Flying-type and ability to Defog, Skarmory has access to Stealth Rock and Spikes, while Mandibuzz has STAB Foul Play and Knock Off. Both are good, but I just don't think Mandibuzz is deserving of A+, however, A would be fine, as it was. I myself haven't encountered much of Mandibuzz, and when I do, I don't have a problem with it, it could just be me, but whatever. Gengar, however, I very strongly disagree with. I want it in A-, it's annoying, but it just lacks raw power and isn't as amazing as it sounds. It can't take any hits, and smart players know how to play around Sub Disable. I've never had any problems with it except for when it is running Destiny Bond and it has never been a threat to any of my teams. I mean it's good, but I've never been overwhelmed by it or seen it as much of a threat. It's totally not bias because Haunter is far superior, but whatever ;]. Anyways, I think you make good points, but here's where I stand:
Dragonite, Bisharp, and Mandibuzz ----> Stay where they are
Gengar ----> A-
Char Y ----> Back up to S
Going to throw some of my opinions out there, but I won't be going too in-depth.
-> A- Hate to break it to you, but Dragonite is overrated. Dragonite has a few sets, but none that particularly shine. Its Dragon Dance set just has too many checks and counters, any competent player should be able to shut it down.
And I'm sure someone will mention its Choice Band set, but that relies too much on prediction guesswork to be consistent. All of its moves can be taken advantage of, it's potential set up fodder if you play it wrong.
-> A I'm with Dice on Mega Venusaur. People are prepared for it, know how to deal with it, and Venusaur has major four move slot syndrome (which isn't a good thing). It just isn't all that effective anymore.
-> A+ Seriously, Clefable is just so versatile. It can act as a sweeper, cleric, Wish passer, stall breaker, and wall - And mostly performing more than one of these roles in a single set! Clefable's not even limited to purely defensive teams. This thing is always worth the slot. It has many jobs to do and it does them all well; Clefable's utility is definitely worth this rank.
-> B+ Much like with Conkeldurr, the metagame just hasn't been too kind to these two. They're usable, they're decent, but not as good as they used to be.
I completely disagree with Charizard Y moving down to A+. This thing is so monstorously powerful that it can 3HKO the blobs. Those Fire Blasts have some serious power behind them. While Charizard-X has to set up to be dangerous, Charizard Y has immediate power (unmatched at that). Also, Charizard Y can run many different coverage moves while Zard X is almost 100% running DD, Flare Blitz/Fire Punch, Outrage/Dragon Claw, Earthquake. It's walled by Azumarill, Clefable, Quagsire, and Heatran if it opts for roost over EQ. Zard Y can also be walled, but the only consistent ones are the blobs. Zard X also has competition as a Dragon Dance sweeper, while Zard Y has almost none as a Special nuke.
So, everything I bolded has problems. First off, 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey is 4HKO'd by Fire Blast and Focus Blast. The other blobs (clefable and sylveon) are not counters or switch ins to zard y to start with. Lol zard y has one good set and it's the one analysis, the 3 special attacks plus roost set. Which coverage moves are there? Outside of Fire Blast, Focus Blast, Solar Beam and potentially earthquake, there isn't anything else to run. What different coverage moves are there that are actually viable?
There aren't many things you can successfully pull of with this thing you could run a spdef wisp set but you need a ton of support for that to the worth using and just makes it more work than it's worth in the grand scheme of things.
Zard x is not 100% of the time Dragon dance. The bulky wisp set is very common on the upper ladder. Just because the lower and mid ladder only use dd doesn't mean it's better. Popularity =/= viability.
Zard x isn't hard walled by clefable when flare blitz 2hkos. Quagsire can wall it but outrage 2hkos. Heatran does wall it if it lacks earthquake so that's fair.
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 173-204 (42.8 - 50.4%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Yup. It's walled.
Despite being the "best" special nuke it's effectiveness has dropped so why should it remain in S rank? Being the best doesn't merit a place in S rank.
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alexwolf, I can have the op updated tomorrow if your still having computer issues. I don't think you'll mind me doing it for you.
Seconding clefable going up to A+
It is really versatile, its like this gens jirachi. You never know what set it is until it reveals one of its moves. It can run CM, cleric, support, wall, and many times, it can do it in the same set. Its typing is a godsend to it, as it only fears rare steel and poison moves. The only thing keeping clefable from S is the fact it doesn't have a single stat over base 100, and for not having a stat over 100 its pretty fucking good. It can find itself on almost every team bar the most offensive, which is a pretty impressive feat. The fact it can do more than one job in one set is a big selling point.
Alright, decided I'd throw in my two cents (or three in this case).
B+ -> A- Chesnaught and Ninja Charizard have stated everything that needs to be said. Mega Gardevoir is a really dangerous sweeper/wallbreaker with an awesome offensive typing, decent Speed (though sometimes a bit disappointing) and a great movepool to boot. Its physical frailty (because fuck you GF, it should've had 75 Def/110 Spe) and susceptibility to priority are pretty annoying, but Mega Gardevoir is always guaranteed to rack up some high damage because it can't be switched in onto without taking a Pixilate Hyper Voice to the face. In short, Mega Gardevoir for A- Rank.
B+ -> A-/A I honestly can't believe Mega Manectric is in the same rank as Raikou. Sure, it takes up the Mega slot and doesn't have as much special bulk, but Mega Manectric is a fantastic offensive pivot, scout, hole puncher and late-game cleaner. The combination of Intimidate and Volt Switch make it really good at softening up physical attackers, allowing teammates to come in more safely. On top of that, Mega Manectric is really easy to fit on offensive teams and makes for a great Pokémon in VoltTurn cores; I'm bringing special attention to Landorus-T as a VoltTurn buddy due to dual-Intimidate forcing an immense amount of switches and Landorus-T being able to take Ground-type moves aimed at Mega Manectric. Fire-type coverage is what really makes Mega Manectric shine above Raikou, as this allows Mega Manectric to obliterate Steel-types that try to take its Thunderbolts. Furthermore, Mega Manectric is capable of checking a large slew of Pokémon in the higher ranks: Mega Pinsir and Talonflame immediately come to mind and aside from the obvious, Mega Gyarados, for example is OHKOed by Thunderbolt with 2 layers of Spikes. Regular Manectric can even come in on Electric-type moves from the likes of Zapdos and Thundurus, get a Lightning Rod boost, then Mega Evolve to be even more dangerous. Despite all these good things, however, Mega Manectric sometimes finds itself lacking in power and special bulk, but do keep in mind: it's stronger and faster than AV Raikou. All in all, with the massive utility Mega Manectric provides by itself on one teamslot, I definitely feel like it should be in a higher rank than Raikou. Mega Manectric for A-/A Rank.
A+ -> S Ah, Mega Gyarados. I'm probably repeating myself from other posts, but I'd like to bring up our favorite cuddly water snake again. With the immense bulk it attains using the combination of Intimidate and its 95/109/130 defenses, setting up is like taking candy from a child for Mega Gyarados. The type switch is the biggest factor here, completely turning the tables and giving the serpent a huge slew of set-up opportunities; key is to wait just for the right opportunity to Mega Evolve, which adds another factor of unpredictability. 155 Attack is brilliant and 81 Speed, while slightly slow, isn't all that bad. Then again, Mega Gyarados can easily use its bulk to set up multiple times on Pokémon that can't hit it supereffectively, such as Aegislash without Sacred Sword, Tyranitar, Mega Tyranitar, etc. Mold Breaker, as previously addressed, is the icing on the cake, allowing Mega Gyarados to send Rotom-W to the scrapyard and making Clefable and Quagsire aware of their defeats at the hand (or fin, whatever) of this brutal sea serpent. Though its five weaknesses and lack of Crunch (why GF) do hold it back, they're only minor flaws of the grand sceheme that is Mega Gyarados. I'll recap: Mega Gyarados for S-Rank.
Mega Gyarados should stay in the A+ rank, if not lower. My reasoning is because I love the water/flying typing rather than the water/dark typing. Mega Gyarados doesn't learn crunch so it has to use bite as dark stab or ice fang to counter gliscor and dragons.
Alright, decided I'd throw in my two cents (or three in this case).
B+ -> A- Chesnaught and Ninja Charizard have stated everything that needs to be said. Mega Gardevoir is a really dangerous sweeper/wallbreaker with an awesome offensive typing, decent Speed (though sometimes a bit disappointing) and a great movepool to boot. Its physical frailty (because fuck you GF, it should've had 75 Def/110 Spe) and susceptibility to priority are pretty annoying, but Mega Gardevoir is always guaranteed to rack up some high damage because it can't be switched in onto without taking a Pixilate Hyper Voice to the face. In short, Mega Gardevoir for A- Rank.
B+ -> A-/A I honestly can't believe Mega Manectric is in the same rank as Raikou. Sure, it takes up the Mega slot and doesn't have as much special bulk, but Mega Manectric is a fantastic offensive pivot, scout, hole puncher and late-game cleaner. The combination of Intimidate and Volt Switch make it really good at softening up physical attackers, allowing teammates to come in more safely. On top of that, Mega Manectric is really easy to fit on offensive teams and makes for a great Pokémon in VoltTurn cores; I'm bringing special attention to Landorus-T as a VoltTurn buddy due to dual-Intimidate forcing an immense amount of switches and Landorus-T being able to take Ground-type moves aimed at Mega Manectric. Fire-type coverage is what really makes Mega Manectric shine above Raikou, as this allows Mega Manectric to obliterate Steel-types that try to take its Thunderbolts. Furthermore, Mega Manectric is capable of checking a large slew of Pokémon in the higher ranks: Mega Pinsir and Talonflame immediately come to mind and aside from the obvious, Mega Gyarados, for example is OHKOed by Thunderbolt with 2 layers of Spikes. Regular Manectric can even come in on Electric-type moves from the likes of Zapdos and Thundurus, get a Lightning Rod boost, then Mega Evolve to be even more dangerous. Despite all these good things, however, Mega Manectric sometimes finds itself lacking in power and special bulk, but do keep in mind: it's stronger and faster than AV Raikou. All in all, with the massive utility Mega Manectric provides by itself on one teamslot, I definitely feel like it should be in a higher rank than Raikou. Mega Manectric for A-/A Rank.
A+ -> S Ah, Mega Gyarados. I'm probably repeating myself from other posts, but I'd like to bring up our favorite cuddly water snake again. With the immense bulk it attains using the combination of Intimidate and its 95/109/130 defenses, setting up is like taking candy from a child for Mega Gyarados. The type switch is the biggest factor here, completely turning the tables and giving the serpent a huge slew of set-up opportunities; key is to wait just for the right opportunity to Mega Evolve, which adds another factor of unpredictability. 155 Attack is brilliant and 81 Speed, while slightly slow, isn't all that bad. Then again, Mega Gyarados can easily use its bulk to set up multiple times on Pokémon that can't hit it supereffectively, such as Aegislash without Sacred Sword, Tyranitar, Mega Tyranitar, etc. Mold Breaker, as previously addressed, is the icing on the cake, allowing Mega Gyarados to send Rotom-W to the scrapyard and making Clefable and Quagsire aware of their defeats at the hand (or fin, whatever) of this brutal sea serpent. Though its five weaknesses and lack of Crunch (why GF) do hold it back, they're only minor flaws of the grand sceheme that is Mega Gyarados. I'll recap: Mega Gyarados for S-Rank.
Mega Gyarados should stay in the A+ rank, if not lower. My reasoning is because I love the water/flying typing rather than the water/dark typing. Mega Gyarados doesn't learn crunch so it has to use bite as dark stab or ice fang to counter gliscor and dragons.
Mega Gyarados should stay in the A+ rank, if not lower. My reasoning is because I love the water/flying typing rather than the water/dark typing. Mega Gyarados doesn't learn crunch so it has to use bite as dark stab or ice fang to counter gliscor and dragons.
If you've read my post on Mega Gyarados properly, it's the type switch that exactly makes Mega Gyara so potent. It's no longer SR-weak and its Electric-type weakness is now a regular instead of a double weakness. Couple that with its augmented bulk and it's not hard to understand why Mega Gyarados is S-Rank material. Regular Gyarados is really underwhelming in comparison. Sure, Mega Gyara can't learn Crunch, but it's perfectly fine with DD/Waterfall/Earthquake/Ice Fang. Earthquake fills the gap nicely, as I've explained. Aside from that, Unaware Clefable/Quagsire and Rotom-W shit all over regular Gyarados, but Mega Gyarados gets past them thanks to Mold Breaker nullifying their Abilities. Again, just read my and others' posts properly.
Mega Gyarados might be great but I don't think he should be in S rank as he only has one set and that is DD, which is pretty much outclassed by Zard X and Zard X has a better typing in general, Mega Gyarados can wreck after a DD but Zard X is just better than Mega gyarados. Mega Gyarados is still amazing and is arguably the second best DD user right now.
Mega Gardevoir is pretty darn strong no one can deny that, but Mega Gardevoir's speed is just not good enough. Switching in on Hyper Voice or Psyshock is difficult but revenge killing Mega Gardevoir is not difficult at all with it's low 60/60 physical defense. Lot's of Pokemon can revenge kill Mega Gardevoir without too much trouble like Choice Scarf Excadrill, Choice Band Talonflame and Scizor. It just has a few too many flaws for me to let it be A- or A rank. Also while Mega Gardevoir is a good way to deal with Baton Pass teams why should we it up because of that. Epseon didn't move up because of Baton Pass, Sylveon didn't move up because of Baton Pass so why Mega Gardevoir. Yes Quagsire did move up because of Baton Pass becoming more popular but Mega Gardevoir isn't as good against Baton Pass as Quagsire. Overall while Mega Gardevoir isn't a bad Pokemon A- or A rank is just a bit too high for it.
Mega Gyarados might be great but I don't think he should be in S rank as he only has one set and that is DD, which is pretty much outclassed by Zard X and Zard X has a better typing in general, Mega Gyarados can wreck after a DD but Zard X is just better than Mega gyarados. Mega Gyarados is still amazing and is arguably the second best DD user right now.
Mega gyarados usually does run dragon dance, but it can run two different versions, Bulky and offensive.
Bulky is a nightmare for stall teams. ResTalk, while still unreliable, is much better than last gen. with the sleep counter no longer resetting upon switch. Also, mold breaker allows it to simply annihilate the most common unaware pokemon and it's bulk allows to be only 3HKO'd by many things on more defensive teams.
It's offensive set has more raw power, being able to 2HKO megasaur at +1 with ice fang, again thanks to mold breaker, while outspeding any thing below base 130 speed and does not have a choice scarf. Gyarados can help itself set-up with intimidate or help get the ball rolling with moxie.
However, I just don't think Gyarados is S material. It's bulky set struggles against offense, and it's offensive set can have problems with certain pokemon.
For example, its offensive set relies on ice fang to deal with things it couldn't otherwise but ice fang is still only 65 base power and doesn't have any STAB boosts. It can have power issues even though it has a monstrous attack stat because unlike CharX it doesn't have a pseudo like orb boost and unlike Megatar it doesn't have any Stab moves over 100 base power. Finally, two almost useless secondary types before and after mega-evolving, what was Game Freak thinking?
I almost think that Water-Flying would have been preferable to Water-Dark because you can reliably check many bug types (Scizor and volcarona). Where as with a dark typing, you're weak to Bug, fighting, and fairy, which means you cannot comfortably KO clefable despite mold breaker, and sylveon will be even worse.
With the apparent popularity rise in breloom and ferrothorn, and with conkeldurr seeing decent usage, Gyara just doesn't seem like S rank to me.
Edit: sorry wrong quote, wanted the one you were replying to.
Alright, decided I'd throw in my two cents (or three in this case).
B+ -> A-/A I honestly can't believe Mega Manectric is in the same rank as Raikou. Sure, it takes up the Mega slot and doesn't have as much special bulk, but Mega Manectric is a fantastic offensive pivot, scout, hole puncher and late-game cleaner. The combination of Intimidate and Volt Switch make it really good at softening up physical attackers, allowing teammates to come in more safely. On top of that, Mega Manectric is really easy to fit on offensive teams and makes for a great Pokémon in VoltTurn cores; I'm bringing special attention to Landorus-T as a VoltTurn buddy due to dual-Intimidate forcing an immense amount of switches and Landorus-T being able to take Ground-type moves aimed at Mega Manectric. Fire-type coverage is what really makes Mega Manectric shine above Raikou, as this allows Mega Manectric to obliterate Steel-types that try to take its Thunderbolts. Furthermore, Mega Manectric is capable of checking a large slew of Pokémon in the higher ranks: Mega Pinsir and Talonflame immediately come to mind and aside from the obvious, Mega Gyarados, for example is OHKOed by Thunderbolt with 2 layers of Spikes. Regular Manectric can even come in on Electric-type moves from the likes of Zapdos and Thundurus, get a Lightning Rod boost, then Mega Evolve to be even more dangerous. Despite all these good things, however, Mega Manectric sometimes finds itself lacking in power and special bulk, but do keep in mind: it's stronger and faster than AV Raikou. All in all, with the massive utility Mega Manectric provides by itself on one teamslot, I definitely feel like it should be in a higher rank than Raikou. Mega Manectric for A-/A Rank.
I second that. Something that fast shouldn't have been allowed to get Volt Switch. I believe this is the best pivot in the metagame right now, even better than Rotom-W, the biggest downside being the fact it uses a mega slot. It can come in every time something on its team faints, force the opponent out and deal ridiculous damage in the process, and electric/fire/ice is a pretty good coverage.
I will repeat what I said in another post, facing Mega Manectric feels like I'm facing Genesect all over again, i. e., having to deal with a pretty good coverage from a fast pokemon and taking heavy damage from a STAB Volt Turn. Of course Genesect is better, but Manectric is nearly as effective at doing what it used to do.
Mega manectric offers good power and high utility at being able to ko many of the pokemon it outspeeds. It is also a very good mega gyara check, being able to ko it after it's normal form has switched into stealth rocks and still outspeed it even at +1. It does take up the mega slot but if you're going to be using a balanced team here isn't much better a use for that slot then mega manectric who is able to pivot into and out of battles, using it's amazing ability and powerful volt switch.
It is also able to revenge kill other threatening sweepers that are very dangerous including checking both M-Pinsir and M-Scizor something that only talonflame could boast. It's almost like the Anti-Mega mega evolution.
This thing is highly underrated and has enough uses and enough reasons to justify those uses that it should be in the same ranking as megachomp, A- (not comparing the two just saying they are both equally effective at what they do).
Can we talk a bit about Mega Gyarados again? I see we've brought it up, and I've been using it on a stall team for a few reasons. Nevertheless, Mega Gyarados probably ranks in the top five of most devastating megas to face right now, for a majority of reason.
First off, Gyarados isn't a giveaway of a mega. Sure, the same goes for Tyranitar and to a lesser extent, Garchomp [but really, gar mega isn't even used outside of sand teams], but gyarados can abuse this fact. Secondly, of the megas in OU, Gyarados is one of three to have a type change upon mega evolving and pinsir can't really abuse this outside of avoiding like a conkedurr ice punch on a predicted swords dance.
Both of these lead to Mega Gyarados' most major key: His mega evolution turn. On this turn, Mega Gyarados changes what counters and checks him with ease. Fighting types, previously unable to come in, are now struggling to find a way back in. Rotom, previously the best check, is now getting destroyed by mold breaker earthquake. Landorus-i and Charizard-Y both need to get in, but couldn't reliably stick around due to the flying/water typing taking neutral damage at best. Aegislash and Bisharp no longer can do anything to Gyarados. Multiscale and Thick fat Dragonite/Venusaur (respectively) get destroyed where previously both could try and set up on Gyara.
But this alone, switching all the checks, wouldn't be enough. The addition of Dragon dance makes it so in that turn, all those checks that are supposed to take him in mega, bar Keldeo and maybe Zard-Y (if no rocks) are not getting the chance to check him. In fact, the best option is to force Mega Gyarados to kill your Pokemon so it can't get +1 speed right away. The literal worst case scenerio is your opponent loses a pokemon on your mega evolution. Your opponent CAN'T expect the mega evolution because the flying to dark type changes so many counters, there aren't many pokemon (any that I can think of) that can stay in and beat both.
Then add the bulk. While not as nasty as Ttar (Whose bulk is roughly comparable to registeel, and more so in sand), Mega-Gyarados has ferrothorn levels of bulk. He doesn't suffer from a 4x weakness to keldeo, either. This of course was what I wanted when I used him for stall. What's there to say about the bulk? He survives every form of priority, including Breloom's Tech LO Mach Punch. At +1, he also OHKOs loom... Coupled with that typing switch, it could be said that Gyarados gets dragon dances off easier than any other pokemon in the game. And it would be true.
So what does Gyarados do with these boosts? Well, Ice fang+Earthquake coupled with mold breaker is perfect coverage on the entire game. This isn't TYPE, this is EVERY POKEMON. Outside of Surskit. Water/Bug is the only type to have any resist to both when coupled with mold breaker. Waterfall simply adds a devastating stab for power whenever needed. 30 of 47 pokemon in OU are hit for SE damage. Of the remaining, 3 are fairies, 2 are chansey/blissey (who get murdered by DD anyways) and three are frail psychics who shouldn't hit back well anyways.
Seriously, this guy just isn't getting the light of day from people even though it might be the single most destructive pokemon in the metagame.
Mega Gyarados should stay in the A+ rank, if not lower. My reasoning is because I love the water/flying typing rather than the water/dark typing. Mega Gyarados doesn't learn crunch so it has to use bite as dark stab or ice fang to counter gliscor and dragons.
Mega Gyarados should stay in the A+ rank, if not lower. My reasoning is because I love the water/flying typing rather than the water/dark typing. Mega Gyarados doesn't learn crunch so it has to use bite as dark stab or ice fang to counter gliscor and dragons.
You can change willing from Water / Flying ---> Water / Dark, that's the main appeal. And Mega Gyarados does not need Crunch, as I've stated before, I'd never give up Waterfall / Earthquake / Ice Fang for Crunch, it's just not necessary, and if you're using Bite then you're obviously not using Mega Gyarados correctly. Also, @ whoever said Mega Gyarados only has one set, it's analysis has four sets to pick from, along with a wide 'Other Options'. It's certainly not one dimensional and if you allow it to set up, well then good luck beating it. It's bulk is phenomenal, it survives a Secret Sword from Calm Mind Keldeo once, that's pretty impressive if you ask me. It creates mind games with the opponent thanks to its switch of typing, so yeah. I am seconding everything that Darkhuaza517 has said :]!
Just to repeat what has already has been stated, mega gharados is an amazing pokemon. Its one of the best dragon dancers in the tier. Its great 95/109/130 bulk combined with intimidate allows mega gyarados to take hits, gyarados can also decide to wait to mega evolve since its checks and counters change depending on the form. Now 155 attack combined with mold breaker makes mega gyarados hard to wall since 155 attack allows mega gyarados to hit like a truck and mold breaker making abilities such as levitate, thick fat, and unaware useless. Though mega gyarados movepool not great it still gives it all the tools it needs to succeed. Since with the ice fang, earthquake, and waterfall hits everything at least neutral. Though mega gyarados does have some flaws such as its mediocre speed stat of 81 and ice fang low power. Mega gyarados strengths allows it to patch its weaknesses.
Just going to pass by and drop an opinion that many people have talked about before, and I believe is a Pokemon we should finish discussing, once and for all. The discussion is about Mega Gyarados moving to S Rank.
I'm going to do a review of Mega Gyarados similar to the one I did about Tornadus-T in the UU Viability Thread. If you do not know how I do it, I go through the Pokemon's ability, movepool, typing, stats, a few calculations, and most importantly, design, as in-depth as I can.
Ability: Mega Gyarados/Gyarados already have great Abilities. Intimidate let's Gyarados lower a Pokemon's attack that significantly increases Gyarados' defence, and can also be used in a support your team throughout the game by switching in and out. Moxie gives Gyarados the capability of getting an attack boost by killing something weakened from a team member, although Intimidate is usually the superior option when using Mega Gyarados. Speaking of which, Mega Gyarados has a great ability in Mold Breaker allowing it to break through Pokemon like Rotom-W who would otherwise wall Gyarados. Overall it's safe to say Gyarados has great abilities, and none of them should be overlooked.
Movepool: This is Gyarados' main weak point. Gyarados has an awful movepool, the best moves it gets are Dragon Dance, Waterfall, Earthquake, Ice Fang, Stone Edge, and Bounce. Aqua Tail may be slightly stronger than Waterfall, but the miss and the flinch chance makes it much better then Aqua Tail. Fortunately, for Gyarados, it's Mega Evolution's ability allows it to bypass Pokemon otherwise walling it including Mega Venusaur (Thick Fat), Rotom-W (Levitate), and also kill Sturdy mons with a single hit. Therefore, although Gyarados' movepool may be horrible, it has just the right moves to make it's Mega Form extremely effective.
Typing: One of Gyarados' best selling points lies in it's amazing typing. Even if your opponent knows Gyarados is a Mega, they never know when you will Mega Evolve. Water/Flying and Water/Dark are pretty bad typing separately, but Gyarados plays mind games and a bunch of other shit with it's opponent, it can take Fighting, Fairy, Dark, Ghost, Rock, and many more types better than it's other form, making Gyarados/Mega Gyarados' typing one of a kind, it lets Gyarados play enough mind games to the point where it could be game over.
Stats: Remarkable. It's one of the best things to say about Mega Gyarados' stats (And also something from DP Anime). It's base stats are: 95 HP / 155 Atk / 109 Def / 70 SpAtk / 130 SpDef / 81 Spe
The bulk is incredible, 95/109/130 paired with Intimidate it makes Mega Gyarados' bulk 95/170+/130! That's some amazing bulk for a sweeper. Not only that, it has a ridiculous attack stat of 155, breaking through walls quite easily. The only subpar stat it has is it's Speed, but it can get through this problem with it's boosting move Dragon Dance, with one boost and Adamant Nature, it outspeeds base 128s (With Jolly it outspeeds base 135s or so), and makes it's attack reach incredible levels. Mega Gyarados' has easily one of the best BST's(With Intimidate) in OU.
Calculations:
All calcs are done with a +1 boost.
Offensive Calculations
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 224-264 (61.5 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 328-387 (109.3 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 288-340 (88.8 - 104.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 374-442 (125.5 - 148.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 162-192 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 246-290 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 556-656 (155.3 - 183.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Defensive Calculations (Done with Intimidate, calcs are here to show that Mega Gyarados can setup easily on the mon, and show it's remarkable bulk)
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 206-246 (62 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 230-272 (69.2 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 148-176 (44.5 - 53%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 178-210 (53.6 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Deoxys-D Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 78-92 (23.4 - 27.7%) -- 74.5% chance to 4HKO
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 222-264 (66.8 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 133-157 (40 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Design: It's essentially a Dragon. If it's shiny, it's a lobster ready to murder everything. Terrifying and sexy at the same time.
In general, I believe you get the idea of Mega Gyarados after you've read this. With it's ability, it's attacks of Waterfall/Ice Fang/Earthquake is unresisted, and it could even run EdgeQuake (Although you should never) if you wanted to. Pair that up with amazing stats that surpass even Pokemon at Ubers level, an amazing boosting move, typing that allows you to essentially wall the entire meta-game, Mega Gyarados can quite easily kill anything with help. Yes it may not be able to do a ton of damage to mons such as Mandibuzz:
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 186-220 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Keep in mind, some Pokemon such as Bisharp can't break through the Pokemon either yet have the potential of being an S Rank Pokemon (Just using +1 to demonstrate) +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 188-224 (44.3 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Now I hope you understand this is why, Mega Gyarados deserves S Rank.
