Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[LZH14]

And in that one thing, it isn´t even that great. There are plenty of revenge killers Gardevoir has to compete with and Gardevoir doesn't have anything over them aside from niche moves. It can be a surprise to people suspecting Mega Gardevoir but the same can be said for normal Charizard and that isn't viable in OU either.

Which is why it's C because it's mostly outclassed by things in higher ranks. It still has a niche and does acceptably well at it, there are definitely better options.
"C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks."
Makes sense to me.

 

[Durant]

gardevoir is very outclassed as a psychic scarfer. however gardevoir is very good as a fairy scarfer, which is why it is c rank.

Sorry for the double post but how aften are you going to need a Fairy type Choice Scarf user. While Fairy type is a good type the Pokemon you need to revenge kill with a Fairy type are also revenge killed by different Pokemon types that have better Choice Scarf users ( Dragonite is better revenge killed by Mamoswine who can also use Ice Shard instead of needing a Choice Scarf, Breloom is also better revenge killed by Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, you get the idea).

Also to the post above me D rank fits Gardevoir better:
D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who have a very small niche in the current OU metagame, and have very noticeable flaws that make them more trouble then their worth the majority of the time.
Gardevoir has only a small niche as a Fairy type revenge killer and has alot of flaws like being weak to priority, terrible physical defense etc.

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

Sorry for the double post but how aften are you going to need a Fairy type Choice Scarf user.

how aften are you going to need a defog discourager.

how aften are you going to need a physical attacker

how aften are you going to need a stealth rock setter

if you say a role of any pokemon like that then of course it will sound like d rank

 

[Durant]

how aften are you going to need a defog discourager.

how aften are you going to need a physical attacker

how aften are you going to need a stealth rock setter

if you say a role of any pokemon like that then of course it will sound like d rank

Well I would say a physical attacker is more important than a revenge killer that can only revenge a select few Pokemon. Gardevoir´s niche is not a very important niche and it has alot of flaws that make it not worth the trouble a majority of the time which fits the D rank description perfectly. Also you will probably need a Defog discourager if you run hazards, you will need a physical attacker so Chansey won´t completely fuck you over and you will need a Stealth Rock setter with Pokemon like Mega Pinsir and Talonflame. That being said does every team need a revenge killer that can only revenge kill a select few threats, no they don´t so don´t compare Pokemon like Bisharp and Deoxys to Gardevoir.

 

[Hclegend]

.

how aften are you going to need a physical attacker

if you say a role of any pokemon like that then of course it will sound like d rank

Cube? MMawile? Aegislash? Seriously, Diggersby is the first thing you think of? I don't have a problem with that though

How often are you gonna need a Sticky Web setter oh shit he's unviable isn't he? Fuck it Choice Specs is op

 

[Rotosect]

Bst is an awful argument. Look at breloom, skarmory, bisharp, azumarill, and crawdaunt, who don't even break 500 BST. And then we have the Regis and articuno, who have 580 BST and are complete garbage

And your argument isn't much better.
Factoring Huge Power Azumarill has the equivalent of 218 base attack, meaning its BST is effectively almost the same as a standard legendary.
Crawdaunt rarely uses anything but its STABs, so factoring Adaptability it has the equivalent of ~165 base attack, meaning its BST can be considered ~513.
Umbreon's BST is 525, Skarmory has no use for its special attack and neither does Bisharp, who has an ability that semi-reliably doubles its attack against most opponents.

But again, you shouldn't look at single cases, but at the big picture: with so many bulky pokemon in the tier, such as Mandibuzz, Chansey, Sylveon or Mega Venusaur, Clefable's defensive merits pale in comparison. Sure it can take advantage of certain set-up sweepers and turn them into set-up baits, but against powerful wallbreakers who don't need to set-up to do their job Clefable is a liability.
Besides Unaware isn't the only way to beat set-up sweepers (nor is it the most reliable one, since Mold Breaker sweepers don't care about it), so that niche isn't an essential one.

If Clefable had a bit more bulk, just enough to avoid key 2HKO's, then it would be an entirely different story. But as a matter of fact it doesn't, so it's a very hit-or-miss pokemon against most wallbreakers. This is where its low stats let it down.

 

[Tyrant laharl]

And your argument isn't much better.
Factoring Huge Power Azumarill has the equivalent of 218 base attack, meaning its BST is effectively almost the same as a standard legendary.
Crawdaunt rarely uses anything but its STABs, so factoring Adaptability it has the equivalent of ~165 base attack, meaning its BST can be considered ~513.
Umbreon's BST is 525, Skarmory has no use for its special attack and neither does Bisharp, who has an ability that semi-reliably doubles its attack against most opponents.

But again, you shouldn't look at single cases, but at the big picture: with so many bulky pokemon in the tier, such as Mandibuzz, Chansey, Sylveon or Mega Venusaur, Clefable's defensive merits pale in comparison. Sure it can take advantage of certain set-up sweepers and turn them into set-up baits, but against powerful wallbreakers who don't need to set-up to do their job Clefable is a liability.
Besides Unaware isn't the only way to beat set-up sweepers (nor is it the most reliable one, since Mold Breaker sweepers don't care about it), so that niche isn't an essential one.

If Clefable had a bit more bulk, just enough to avoid key 2HKO's, then it would be an entirely different story. But as a matter of fact it doesn't, so it's a very hit-or-miss pokemon against most wallbreakers. This is where its low stats let it down.

umm... What? Where the hell did I say anything about umbreon firstly, or skarmorys special attack. 218 attack azumarill? Try 149. The crawdaunt and bisharp thing is also stupid. You cant consider abilities ADDITIONS to bst. I honestly cant understand how you even typed out such a nonsensical arguement.

 

[Durant]

umm... What? Where the hell did I say anything about umbreon firstly, or skarmorys special attack. 218 attack azumarill? Try 149. The crawdaunt and bisharp thing is also stupid. You cant consider abilities ADDITIONS to bst. I honestly cant understand how you even typed out such a nonsensical arguement.

To me abilities that boost up a certain stat like Hustle or Pure Power seem like perfect arguments against what you said.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

umm... What? Where the hell did I say anything about umbreon firstly, or skarmorys special attack. 218 attack azumarill? Try 149. The crawdaunt and bisharp thing is also stupid. You cant consider abilities ADDITIONS to bst. I honestly cant understand how you even typed out such a nonsensical arguement.

Considering many pokemon come with amazing stats and useless/situational abilities, it's not far-fetched to say a pokemon with bad stats but an ability that directly boosts its stats is actually a pokemon with higher stats.

 

[RotomPoison]

Can this BST discussion stop? It doesn't prove a point at all because BST is only part of what makes a Pokemin good or bad. Wouldy ou use Kyurem-B if it got Truant? No. Does a Pokemons BST define its role? No. Deoxys-D is an excellent hazard setter and arguably the best for HO teams, but its stats and access to Recover scream wall.

On that note, don't argue to drop Deoxys-D. Once again, it's one of the best Pokemon to use on HO teams and almost single handedly makes them viable, as no Pokemon can do what it does so reliably, not even Deoxys-S.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Can this BST discussion stop? It doesn't prove a point at all because BST is only part of what makes a Pokemin good or bad. Wouldy ou use Kyurem-B if it got Truant? No. Does a Pokemons BST define its role? No. Deoxys-D is an excellent hazard setter and arguably the best for HO teams, but its stats and access to Recover scream wall.

On that note, don't argue to drop Deoxys-D. Once again, it's one of the best Pokemon to use on HO teams and almost single handedly makes them viable, as no Pokemon can do what it does so reliably, not even Deoxys-S.

Though, like someone else said, it's baffiling that you can say the same thing about Chansey regarding stall teams and she is only A-, while Deo-D gets to be S.

At least Chansey is a pokemon I have seen on balanced teams. Deoxys-D doesn't exist outside of HO.

 

[RotomPoison]

Though, like someone else said, it's baffiling that you can say the same thing about Chansey regarding stall teams and she is only A-, while Deo-D gets to be S.

At least Chansey is a pokemon I have seen on balanced teams. Deoxys-D doesn't exist outside of HO.

But it singlehandedly makes HO viable where stall can function without Chansey

 

[Karxrida]

Though, like someone else said, it's baffiling that you can say the same thing about Chansey regarding stall teams and she is only A-, while Deo-D gets to be S.

At least Chansey is a pokemon I have seen on balanced teams. Deoxys-D doesn't exist outside of HO.

Knock Off is everywhere and several common HO mons (Bisharp, Keldeo, certain Lando-I sets) fuck you up hard. Some Pokemon like Manaphy also occasionally run Knock Off specifically to lure you out.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Knock Off is everywhere and several common HO mons (Bisharp, Keldeo, certain Lando-I sets) fuck you up hard. Some Pokemon like Manaphy also occasionally run Knock Off specifically to lure you out.

And yet, every single Stall team and many Balance teams use it, and in Stall's case, it single handedly makes the style viable. They must be finding a way to get around Knock Off. Maybe teammates?

The main argument I've seem for keeping Deo-D in this thread is that it single handedly makes HO viable. What is so different from Chansey? Why does Deo-D get a free pass to S just for being the poster child of HO, while Chansey can't get to A while doing the same thing to stall?

You know, this is just a thought, but is there a possibility that this thread may be biased towards Hyper-Offense?

 

[Kyuzeth]

It still has to compete with Mega Alakazam as a trace user. While Gardevoir doesn't take up a mega slot and has Fairy STAB that is about all the things it does better than Mega Alakazam. Mega Alakazam doesn't need the Choice Scarf like Gardevoir because of it's already sky high speed. Also Mega Alakazam hits alot harder with it's higher special attack stat that even rivals Deoxys Attack forme.

252 SpA Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 127-151 (37.2 - 44.2%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 163-193 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see Mega Alakazam outdamages Gardevoir quite a bit and while Gardevoir has a few gimmicky options like Destiny Bond, Memento, Trick and Healing Wish, Mega Alakazam is better in almsot every single way. Seeing as how Mega Alakazam is in B- ( even though I think B is better for it ) Gardevoir is a niche version of Mega Alakazam which is by itself already a bit niche I think D or unranked is better for it.

I'm laughing so hard at the fact you're comparing Mega Alakazam, an optimized special sweeper, with the more all-around Gardevoir, just because of their Abilities. Besides, you should always use Modest in your Mega Alakazam calcs, as Big-Zam only runs Modest to still outpace everything ever and hit harder than Timid LO Zam. Here's a better calc for Mega Alakazam:
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 202-238 (59.2 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It proves Mega Alakazam indeed outclasses Gardevoir as an attacker, but seriously, comparing a strict sweeper/revenge killer to a Pokémon that can perform a multitude of roles, including attacking and supporting, is just garbage. An Ability alone really isn't enough reason to compare two Pokémon, unless it's something like Diggersby VS. Azumarill.

 

[Karxrida]

And yet, every single Stall team and many Balance teams use it, and in Stall's case, it single handedly makes the style viable. They must be finding a way to get around Knock Off. Maybe teammates?

The main argument I've seem for keeping Deo-D in this thread is that it single handedly makes HO viable. What is so different from Chansey? Why does Deo-D get a free pass to S just for being the poster child of HO, while Chansey can't get to A while doing the same thing to stall?

Because HO is better in this meta (apparently). Also, I'm not saying that Chansey isn't A worthy, it's just easy for HO to play around. It's not that hard for an HO teams to carry 3 things that fuck Chansey up or force it out (I have Bisharp, Knock Off Lando, and Specs Keldeo on my team for example). There's also the fact that Deo-D doesn't care about dying (and in fact WANTS to) and will always contribute in some way while Chansey has a tough time against a lot of stuff on Offense.

 

[TFL]

Quit saying Chansey makes stall viable, Deoxys-D makes HO viable, etc. - Because they aren't true.
Chansey is overrated on stall and can be put under a lot of pressure real fast if dealing with a smart player (see Tewmew and CBB's match for reference). Hyper Offense is doable and can work just as well with Deoxys-S, Garchomp, and who knows what else.

Deoxys-D plays its role much better than Chansey does hers, that's why there's a sizable gap between them in this thread.

 

[New World Order]

I don't know what's more sad. The fact that someone thought Clefable was A- at best because of base stats or the fact that people are actually defending that ridiculous argument. Rotosect , I like how you try to justify other Pokemon's low base stats by throwing in "modified stats" for the likes of Azumarill and Crawdaunt and ignore the fact that Clefable's "modified stats" basically scale with the opposing Pokemon's boosts, would you like to calculate what his base stats would resemble if he were facing, say, a Belly Drum or Shell Smash user? Also with regards to his struggles against wallbreakers, to put it bluntly, you'd have to be mentally challenged to use Clefable to deal with wallbreakers. That's not what Unaware users are for, their main draw is that they shut down set-up sweepers, and that's how they should be used. The reason why the Quagsire+Clefable+Chansey core is the best defensive core in OU by a light-year is because Quaggy is a blanket check to most of the physical set-up sweepers, while Clef does the same to most special set-up sweepers. Clefable is the biggest reason why special boosters such as Manaphy and Volcarona can't see the light of day. Clefable's typing also allows it to shut down some very powerful physical attackers as well, such as Garchomp and Dragonite.

 

[Durant]

I'm laughing so hard at the fact you're comparing Mega Alakazam, an optimized special sweeper, with the more all-around Gardevoir, just because of their Abilities. Besides, you should always use Modest in your Mega Alakazam calcs, as Big-Zam only runs Modest to still outpace everything ever and hit harder than Timid LO Zam. Here's a better calc for Mega Alakazam:
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 202-238 (59.2 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It proves Mega Alakazam indeed outclasses Gardevoir as an attacker, but seriously, comparing a strict sweeper/revenge killer to a Pokémon that can perform a multitude of roles, including attacking and supporting, is just garbage. An Ability alone really isn't enough reason to compare two Pokémon, unless it's something like Diggersby VS. Azumarill.

Well me and other people mentioned being a revenge killing Fairy type is it´s only niche as the defensive sets are kind of bad and Calm Mind is done better by Mega Gardevoir. As for the calc I thought I used Modest but it changed or I am just dumb. As for Gardevoir and Mega Alakazam being similar is because they are both Psychic type with high special attack, both despising priority moves and both have Trace as their main selling point. Gardevoir can't fill multiple roles either without being horribly outclassed by Clefable or Sylveon.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

It still has to compete with Mega Alakazam as a trace user. While Gardevoir doesn't take up a mega slot and has Fairy STAB that is about all the things it does better than Mega Alakazam. Mega Alakazam doesn't need the Choice Scarf like Gardevoir because of it's already sky high speed. Also Mega Alakazam hits alot harder with it's higher special attack stat that even rivals Deoxys Attack forme.

252 SpA Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 127-151 (37.2 - 44.2%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 163-193 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see Mega Alakazam outdamages Gardevoir quite a bit and while Gardevoir has a few gimmicky options like Destiny Bond, Memento, Trick and Healing Wish, Mega Alakazam is better in almsot every single way. Seeing as how Mega Alakazam is in B- ( even though I think B is better for it ) Gardevoir is a niche version of Mega Alakazam which is by itself already a bit niche I think D or unranked is better for it.

Alakazam's Trace can't change turn order on the turn it mega evolves, so unless you've previously mega evolved it can't RK Swift Swim/Sand Rush things. It also takes up a mega slot, so these two things alone mean non-Mega Garde isn't outright outclassed by it.

Gimmicks are dumb things that barely every work. Trick and Destiny Bond are definitely not gimmicks because they're actually effective. Healing Wish and Memento are also pretty useful, though Destiny Bond is usually better.

Scarfedevoir has an analysis anyway so it can't be unranked.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Because HO is better in this meta (apparently). Also, I'm not saying that Chansey isn't A worthy, it's just easy for HO to play around. It's not that hard for an HO teams to carry 3 things that fuck Chansey up or force it out (I have Bisharp, Knock Off Lando, and Specs Keldeo on my team for example). There's also the fact that Deo-D doesn't care about dying (and in fact WANTS to) and will always contribute in some way while Chansey has a tough time against a lot of stuff on Offense.

Just one thought: at some point, you made the decision of putting Knock Off on your Landorus. Your team already has a Keldeo and a Bisharp, who have a field day against Chansey using any of their most common movesets. Normally, against a good pokemon, having 2 things in your team who can completely destroy it is good enough for team building. I mean, having three hard counters to something isn't really necessary.

That said, and knowing that one of the main things that got Landorus S was the fact it can use Knock Off to lure Chansey, and that people (including me) usually use that move because of Chansey (anything else being often too situational to justify the move, considering Lando's plenty of other options), I ask you: why did you need a third dedicated counter to Chansey? Why sparing a moveslot to Chansey when you already have other two things that destroy it?

I'm making a big leap here, but maybe it's because Chansey single handedly walls your other 3 pokemon? So you need a third answer to Chansey, because the damn thing is so good 2 answers won't do it?

IMO, if you need to have half of your pokemon carry moves just to deal with a single pokemon, that pokemon is nothing short of amazing.

 

[Durant]

Alakazam's Trace can't change turn order on the turn it mega evolves, so unless you've previously mega evolved it can't RK Swift Swim/Sand Rush things. It also takes up a mega slot, so these two things alone mean non-Mega Garde isn't outright outclassed by it.

Gimmicks are dumb things that barely every work. Trick and Destiny Bond are definitely not gimmicks because they're actually effective. Healing Wish and Memento are also pretty useful, though Destiny Bond is usually better.

Scarfedevoir has an analysis anyway so it can't be unranked.

That is why it should be D rank.
D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who have a very small niche in the current OU metagame, and have very noticeable flaws that make them more trouble then their worth the majority of the time.

Gardevoir fits this description nicely as it has quite a few flaws like being really priority weak, having awful defenses etc. However it isn't completely unviable because it doesn't take up a mega slot like it's main competetor Mega Alakazam and has some moves like Destiny Bond and Healing Wish which Mega Alakazam doesn't have.

 

[Karxrida]

Just one thought: at some point, you made the decision of putting Knock Off on your Landorus. Your team already has a Keldeo and a Bisharp, who have a field day against Chansey using any of their most common movesets. Normally, against a good pokemon, having 2 things in your team who can completely destroy it is good enough for team building. I mean, having three hard counters to something isn't really necessary.

That said, and knowing that one of the main things that got Landorus S was the fact it can use Knock Off to lure Chansey, and that people (including me) usually use that move because of Chansey (anything else being often too situational to justify the move, considering Lando's plenty of other options), I ask you: why did you need a third dedicated counter to Chansey? Why sparing a moveslot to Chansey when you already have other two things that destroy it?

I'm making a big leap here, but maybe it's because Chansey single handedly walls your other 3 pokemon? So you need a third answer to Chansey, because the damn thing is so good 2 answers won't do it?

IMO, if you need to have half of your pokemon carry moves just to deal with a single pokemon, that pokemon is nothing short of amazing.

I never said it was a good idea or that I was good at teambuilding. Besides, it still fucks up things that think they're safe to switch in like Sylveon. The last time I checked Bisharp, Keldeo, and Lando were good partners anyway.

 

[Aragorn the King]

Does it have a niche? Yes.
Does it have a useful niche? Yes.
Can it more often than not perform this niche? Yes.
Does it need intense support? No.
Some support? Yes.
Does it receive competition for its niche? Yes and no.
Does it have perks over its competition? Absolutely.
Does it come with surprise factor? Absolutely.

I've been using it a lot lately, and it's been performing very well. Its benefits over its competition are apparent to me, and it never fails to do its job, as long as you know what it can handle. To me, it's a perfect fit for a C+ rank.

I can fill in the blanks, if necessary, but I'm pretty sure everyone can see where I'm coming from.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

The thing is, nothing minds an item loss more than Chansey. Nothing. Everything else can play around. Every other pokemon can shurg off an item loss when necessary, if needing to switch into something with Knock Off. Chansey is the only one who has to switch out over the mere threat of Knock Off, and not because of the damage.

Yet, people (again, including me) are commonly having 2, 3 pokemon with Knock off. I mean, I know the move is amazing, but if Chansey didn't exist, would it be worth it? Is removing all those leftovers and life orbs worth the turns you are wasting while often doing ridiculous damage? Do you really need to sacrifice so many coverage moves to remove items?

I know I do, because if my team is not armed with at least two Knock Offers, Chansey OWNS me. She places a wall in front of my team forever. I've forfeited many matches because Chansey was still alive and I realized I would have no hope of ever taking it down.

I think the main reason people use Knock Off so much is Eviolite Chansey. It is why people are putting defense-reducing natures on their special attackers and slapping the move in, knowing that its use will be very situational. But they do it, because the memories of that fucking blob walling 5 pokemon of their team after their physical attacker fainted are too scary.