Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

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Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
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Thunder Wave on the Knock Off, Recover until you don't take damage, and Giga Drain the next turn. Repeat until Azumarill dies.
Physical Thundy still loses to PDef Celebi so long as it doesn't have a Defiant boost, or U-turn.
And several bulky DD, or stall Zard X go without Fire STAB to beat Heatran more reliably with EQ. EQ is even slashed with Flare Blitz on the first set. And a paralysed DD Zard X is much easier to deal with, which is why I mentioned you can just paralyse it to essentially neuter it.
Celebi still checks Landorus without Sludge Wave or CM pretty well, so that's that.
What does using Thunder Wave on Azumarill accomplish? It's already slow, now you can't burn it, and you've still taken a Knock Off and lost your Lefties. The best you can say about this scenario is that it's a stalemate (which is still in the favor of the Azumarill user since now they probably know your set).
I have never seen a DD Zard X without Flare Blitz, and relying on something to not run its best move to deal with it makes you a pretty shitty check. Stall Zard X doesn't really care about the T-Wave since it's not sweeping and will just Burn you (which will force you to switch out).
If you're Physically Defensive you take about 50% from a LO Knock Off from Thundy and LO HP Flying does over 50% without any SpA investment X_X

252 Atk Life Orb Thundurus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Celebi: 187-221 (46.2 - 54.7%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 205-244 (50.7 - 60.3%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


CM Lando will set up on you until it can muscle through since you're not going to be able to break it without investment, Nasty Plot, or crits.
 
So in the first replay, Greninja sacrificed itself to get up two layers of spikes...that didn't actually matter. Those spikes didn't change any 2HKOs into OHKOs, nor did constant switching cause a pokemon to be worn down considerably by them.

In the second replay, the spikes only mattered against Quagsire, nothing else was bothered by them much. On top of that, Greninja was gonna get stalled out by Skarmory if Mien wanted it, but he figured a layer of spikes was worth more than his Skarmory.

And in both replays the Greninja user lost. Granted, the first one was cause of hax, but in the first replay the spikes had no real impact.

Not the best ones to try and argue for Spikes on Greninja.
Just saying that I had taken just 2 random replays so sorry if they havent done the right example, but Spikes Greninja remains extremely useful, hyper offense teams like a lot Spikes to make pressure on opponent's team and that was the main reason why Deoxys-D and S were so popular in HO teams as hazard setters. Ofc Greninja is much worse than both of them at doing that job, but it remains a solid Spikes user IMO. Also how can Skarmory counter a Greninja? Both Hydro Pump and Ice beam do a ton of damages on it, but well that doesnt mean much, returning on the topic of Spikes Greninja, in my eyes Spikes is a good move on Greninja, it can setup easily hazards on Stall teams (while beating Skarmory / Mandibuzz which have the role of defogging them) and quite easily on balanced teams (on Rotom-W for example, it won't Hydro Pump you at the first turn against Greninja while you can HP Grass it later -yeah HP Grass + Spikes is quite good, but you have to not carry Extrasensory-), on hyper offense its much more difficult but since Greninja forces lots of switches thanks to its good coverage, its impossible either. I won't convice you that Spikes Greninja has its niches tho, I guess thats up to personal preferences, but I guess you can just try it sometimes and see how it works for you.

Anyways, returning on the main topic, I would like to nominate up some Pokèmon respect their actually own rank.

At first, like someone has already said, Terrakion in A+ would be probably better. Now that Aegislash has gone, its STABs can hit hard pretty much all the metagame and it can now carry another move in place of Earthquake. Taunt, Sword Dance, Substitute and Rock Polish are all viable choices and even HP Ice can make an upset against all the Lando-Ts that are used in nowadays' metagame. Its also a solid Stealth Rock setter, and it's the primary one with Garchomp in hyper offense teams now that both Deoxys-S and D are in Uber tier. It was already a great pokèmon but now it's just a way better since it can hit hard all the metagame and can run some cool option to sweep certain teams as well so I think it deserves the A+ rank. Another pokèmon that deserves the A+ rank is probably Dragonite, without Aegislash it can actually spam Outrage and ES more easily and can use other moves in place of Earthquake in the DD set as well (and in the CB one of course) like Fire Punch to hit Skarmory and Ferrothorn or Thunder Punch to hit Azumarill. Also, as alexwolf already said, now that Aegislash is gone, mons like Gardevoir, Medicham and Alakazam are getting more and more used, and they are all revengekilled quite easily by CB Nite's ES. It's a powerful sweeper and HO's one of the best revengekiller too, so it could rly go in A+ rank. Actually, its only problem to shine in OU is Mega Mawile that can check it pretty well, but if it eventually goes to Ubers as well, I dont see any problem to not make Dragonite A+ rank material.

Moving on, I think that Mew deserves the A rank. Its Specially Defensive set is an huge threat for both stall teams and HO teams, knock offing every items that arent mega stones and will-o-wisping every physical attacker. It's a pain for stall teams in general beating easily things like Chansey, Blissey, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Mandibuzz, Amoonguss, Alomomola etc and for HO as well, checking Greninja, Azumarill, Thundurus, Landorus, Keldeo, Landorus-T etc and basically very few mons can switch into it, because losing an item or getting burned is very huge. It was used in World Cup a lot, and I believe that its rly good since it can check lot of things in every playstyle and therefore it should be A rank.

Another pokèmon that Id like to see higher is Goodra. Now its in C rank with things like Exploud, regular Alakazam, Chandelure, Cresselia and Seismitoad that while have their own niches, they are very rarely used in OU, but I think that Goodra is way better than all of them. Its AV set is something rly hard to beat for any special attackers and checking Thundurus, Greninja and Rotom-W to make some examples while maintaining a pretty good offensive presence is huge imo. Infact you guys shouldnt forget that Goodra has a rly good coverage and not lot of pokèmons can actually switch in on it. Definitely a pokèmon that has some interesting niches in OU, and therefore I believe that a C+ rank is where it should belong. I just think that the other mons in C rank are all worse than it.

Finally, I support Magnezone rising as well. It has some nice resistances to dragon, steel and fairy and the choice scarf set can check things like Pinsir and Talon (not Jolly ofc) which is nice, it also provides cool support to things like Pinsir and Diggersby at removing steel and to things like Clefable as well. Definitely a good pokèmon in the current meta imo.
 
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Poek

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Just saying that I had taken just 2 random replays so sorry if they havent done the right example, but Spikes Greninja remains extremely useful, hyper offense teams like a lot Spikes to make pressure on opponent's team and that was the main reason why Deoxys-D and S were so popular in HO teams as hazard setters. Ofc Greninja is much worse than both of them at doing that job, but it remains a solid Spikes user IMO. Also how can Skarmory counter a Greninja? Both Hydro Pump and Ice beam do a ton of damages on it, but well that doesnt mean much, returning on the topic of Spikes Greninja, in my eyes Spikes is a good move on Greninja, it can setup easily hazards on Stall teams (while beating Skarmory / Mandibuzz which have the role of defogging them) and quite easily on balanced teams (on Rotom-W for example, it won't Hydro Pump you at the first turn against Greninja while you can HP Grass it later -yeah HP Grass + Spikes is quite good, but you have to not carry Extrasensory-), on hyper offense its much more difficult but since Greninja forces lots of switches thanks to its good coverage, its impossible either. I won't convice you that Spikes Greninja has its niches tho, I guess thats up to personal preferences, but I guess you can just try it sometimes and see how it works for you.

Anyways, returning on the main topic, I would like to nominate up some Pokèmon respect their actually own rank.

At first, like someone has already said, Terrakion in A+ would be probably better. Now that Aegislash has gone, its STABs can hit hard pretty much all the metagame and it can now carry another move in place of Earthquake. Taunt, Sword Dance, Substitute and Rock Polish are all viable choices and even HP Ice can make an upset against all the Lando-Ts that are used in nowadays' metagame. Its also a solid Stealth Rock setter, and it's the primary one with Garchomp in hyper offense teams now that both Deoxys-S and D are in Uber tier. It was already a great pokèmon but now it's just a way better since it can hit hard all the metagame and can run some cool option to sweep certain teams as well so I think it deserves the A+ rank. Another pokèmon that deserves the A+ rank is probably Dragonite, without Aegislash it can actually spam Outrage and ES more easily and can use other moves in place of Earthquake in the DD set as well (and in the CB one of course) like Fire Punch to hit Skarmory and Ferrothorn or Thunder Punch to hit Azumarill. Also, as alexwolf already said, now that Aegislash is gone, mons like Gardevoir, Medicham and Alakazam are getting more and more used, and they are all revengekilled quite easily by CB Nite's ES. It's a powerful sweeper and HO's one of the best revengekiller too, so it could rly go in A+ rank. Actually, its only problem to shine in OU is Mega Mawile that can check it pretty well, but if it eventually goes to Ubers as well, I dont see any problem to not make Dragonite A+ rank material.

Moving on, I think that Mew deserves the A rank. Its Specially Defensive set is an huge threat for both stall teams and HO teams, knock offing every items that arent mega stones and will-o-wisping every physical attacker. It's a pain for stall teams in general beating easily things like Chansey, Blissey, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Mandibuzz, Amoonguss, Alomomola etc and for HO as well, checking Greninja, Azumarill, Thundurus, Landorus, Keldeo, Landorus-T etc and basically very few mons can switch into it, because losing an item or getting burned is very huge. It was used in World Cup a lot, and I believe that its rly good since it can check lot of things in every playstyle and therefore it should be A rank.

Another pokèmon that Id like to see higher is Goodra. Now its in D rank with things like Exploud, regular Alakazam, Chandelure, Cresselia and Seismitoad that while have their own niches, they are very rarely used in OU, but I think that Goodra is way better than all of them. Its AV set is something rly hard to beat for any special attackers and checking Thundurus, Greninja and Rotom-W to make some examples while maintaining a pretty good offensive presence is huge imo. Infact you guys shouldnt forget that Goodra has a rly good coverage and not lot of pokèmons can actually switch in on it. Definitely a pokèmon that has some interesting niches in OU, and therefore I believe that a C rank is where it should belong. I just think that the other mons in D rank are all worse than it.

Finally, I support Magnezone rising as well. It has some nice resistances to dragon, steel and fairy and the choice scarf set can check things like Pinsir and Talon (not Jolly ofc) which is nice, it also provides cool support to things like Pinsir and Diggersby at removing steel and to things like Clefable as well. Definitely a good pokèmon in the current meta imo.
Well goodra, alakazam, chandelure, cresselia and seismitoad are already C rank so i don't know. I guess you meant C+?
 
Alexander. Look at the replay, Greninja was doing less than 50% to that skarm with both Hydro Pump and Ice Beam. And it was taking life orb recoil each time. That's how Skarm would have beaten it, since it would heal for more than Greninja does in damage, and Greninja would kill itself.

I agree with your recent nominations, except for Goodra, but I'm undecided on that one so whatever.
 
yup didnt see it was specially defensive skarm then! the most part of ppl run physical skarm nowadays tho, and greninja can easily beat it (don't want to go off topic though so yeah lol)

Also I was reading that some people wanted Celebi to rise in the viability ranking but Im not sure about it; it's for sure a pokèmon that can work in the current metagame but that has some problem as well and while it counters pretty well both Rotom-W and Keldeo, it really struggles against big threats like Talonflame, Pinsir, both Char forms and the list can continue. Thunder Wave is a way to not allow them to setup in your face, but you have to give up to something else. Also, from what Ive seen in games where Celebi is used people prefer to use it to baton pass Substitute on things like Char X or other setup sweeper and so in the most part of the games it lacks Thunder Wave and therefore it's setup fodder for lot of dangerous threats. I don't rly know about it, but I just feel that while it's a good pokèmon, it has lot of weaknesses too, that let it open at the major part of the threats that there are in the current metagame, plus it has many support moves but it can't rly decide on what use and so it's good only in certain situation. In summary, I think that Celebi is a good pokèmon but not very solid at what it does. Although, from what Ive seen pokèmon that share the rank with it like Victini, Staraptor and Weavile arent very solid as well, so it probably deserves to go up to B rank.
 
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Alexander. Look at the replay, Greninja was doing less than 50% to that skarm with both Hydro Pump and Ice Beam. And it was taking life orb recoil each time. That's how Skarm would have beaten it, since it would heal for more than Greninja does in damage, and Greninja would kill itself.

I agree with your recent nominations, except for Goodra, but I'm undecided on that one so whatever.
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 179-212 (53.5 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Looks like somebody forgot to EV their Greninja :]
 
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252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 179-212 (53.5 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Somebody forgot to EV their Greninja :]
Ha! Likely. Just more points to that replay being a bad example of Spikes Greninja being useful :P
 
What does using Thunder Wave on Azumarill accomplish? It's already slow, now you can't burn it, and you've still taken a Knock Off and lost your Lefties. The best you can say about this scenario is that it's a stalemate (which is still in the favor of the Azumarill user since now they probably know your set).
I have never seen a DD Zard X without Flare Blitz, and relying on something to not run its best move to deal with it makes you a pretty shitty check. Stall Zard X doesn't really care about the T-Wave since it's not sweeping and will just Burn you (which will force you to switch out).
If you're Physically Defensive you take about 50% from a LO Knock Off from Thundy and LO HP Flying does over 50% without any SpA investment X_X
252 Atk Life Orb Thundurus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Celebi: 187-221 (46.2 - 54.7%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 205-244 (50.7 - 60.3%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


CM Lando will set up on you until it can muscle through since you're not going to be able to break it without investment, Nasty Plot, or crits.
Thunder Wave prevents it from moving 25% of the time to allow you to get hits in the stalemate. PDef can always survive 2 hits from thund because knock off loses pseudo STAB on subsequent hits, and celebi 2HKOs with psychic. And physical thund doesnt run flying STAB except the rare Power Herb fly to kill venu at +2 defiant.
The first set of charizard x set in copyediting thread slashes flare blitz with EQ iirc. And copyediting sets usually have its best set first.

And I was not saying it makes a good check lol. I was just saying it doesn't have as shitty matchup as you claimed, it actually beats the more common sets.
 
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Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Thunder Wave prevents it from moving 25% of the time to allow you to get hits in the stalemate. PDef can always survive 2 hits from thund because knock off loses pseudo STAB on subsequent hits, and celebi 2HKOs with psychic. And physical thund doesnt run flying STAB except the rare Power Herb fly to kill venu at +2 defiant.
The first set of charizard x set in preliminary dex slashes flare blitz after EQ iirc, and preliminary dex sets are not arranged alphabetically.

And I was not saying it makes a good check lol. I was just saying it doesn't have as shitty matchup as you claimed, it actually beats the more common sets.
You are relying on Hax to beat Azumarill so I think that disqualifies you as a check.
Physical Thundy does run HP Flying for Mega Venu last time I checked so I don't see how you're winning there. You're also not going to know its physical until its too late a lot of the time, so it being at +2 isn't really out of the question.
You are still relying on the Zard X user to have decided that Tough Claws boosted Fire STAB sucks ass and to run Earthquake over it to deal with one check that is easily dealt with by teammates. It's also slashed after Flare Blitz so it's considered a secondary option anyway.

Celebi can only realistically deal with 2 S-Ranks at a time based on what set it runs, and even then Keldeo is the only one you're guaranteed to win against.

And even then, if you're Physically Defensive...
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 196-232 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 45.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (guaranteed after SR)

So you can lose to the one thing you are meant to counter if you decided to be Physically Defensive that day.

Keep Celebi in B-.
 
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You are relying on Hax to beat Azumarill so I think that disqualifies you as a check.
Physical Thundy does run HP Flying for Mega Venu last time I checked so I don't see how you're winning there. You're also not going to know its physical until its too late a lot of the time so it being at +2 isn't really out of the question.
You are still relying on the Zard X user to have decided that Fire STAB sucks ass and to run Earthquake over it to deal with one check that is easily dealt with by teammates. It's also slashed after Flare Blitz so it's considered a secondary option anyway.
Relying on hax to change a draw to a win is always in your favor because you still don't lose. Every time I checked only NP thund runs hphow flying, and lol physical thund will never be at +2 against celebi unless psychic gets a sdef drop

I don't even know why you are arguing with me here. I never once implied that celebi checks all of em. I am just pointing out facts when you clearly implied celebi crumbles and dies on them back on the previous few pages
 
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Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Relying on hax to change a draw to a win is always in your favor because you still don't lose. Every time I checked only NP thund runs hphow flying, and lol physical thund will never be at +2 against celebi unless psychic gets a sdef drop
You're switching into Thundy, not the other way around, so I don't see how it being at +2 is unrealistic.
 
I don't really think chomp should fall to the A Rank.Chomp's Stabs individually might be easy to resist/immune individually but together they form an awesome STAB combination.Chomp's scarf set is really good because it's unique speed which allows it to check a ton of set up sweepers as well as other stuff.Stall is becoming less common with the power creep.Lead mamo will still not prevent chomp from doing something and smart chomp players will probably not lead with them of they see mamo on the preview.
 
I believe:

Mew -> A
Magnezone -> B
Tornadus -> A-


Also want to bring up Mega Alakazam again before the update, who I believe deserves to go to B+because:

1. Aegislash is gone
2. Fighting types are on the rise (Keldeo, Mega Hera, Terrakion)
3. Bisharp usage going down
4. Shadow Ball no longer mandatory; can also run Taunt, Dazzling Gleam, CM, or Hp fire/ice for last two slots beside Psychic/Psyshock and Focus Blast
 
I'm going to agree on Albacore for Starmie for B+/A-.

Starmie is a fantastic spinner in this metagame, and only now have I realised just how fantastic. Analytic Starmie is a true offensive monster that not a lot enjoys switching into. It's just great to check a rock setters like Landorus-T (suck on that Excadrill) and completely bombs whatever your opponent decides to switch in, or you could just Rapid Spin. It's similar to Greninja in a sense where it outspeeds a fair amount of offensive Pokemon and easily 2HKOes, the only problem is Starmie is weaker. But as a trade off, it can spin and OHKO the only spin blocker in the tier. Seeing as a lot of offensive teams like to run their own hazards, this is huge. One of my favourite things about Starmie is how fast it is. Unlike Excadrill it's fast off the bat without any sort of ability or choice item, allowing it to run one of it's 2 fantastic abilities and run Life Orb at the same time. Natural Cure is a savoir for offensive teams, being able to absorb para and burns. Analytic just turns Starmie into a total monster that becomes very hard to switch into. The choice is yours. Alone, this puts Starmie around B-/B. But Starmie has another set: It's defensive set. This set is also a really effective spinner, and it's probably the only viable defensive spinner left. This is yet another thing Excadrill cannot do as a spinner, proving that in no way is Starmie outclassed. The defensive set has Scald, a reliable healing move in Recover, status absorbing and Reflect Type, making pursuit trapping very difficult. On a defensive Pokemon, moves like this are indispensable. As already said by Albacore, it allows for hazard stacking stall, which would otherwise be impossible. This alone needs to be taken into consideration when ranking Starmie.

B+: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

In B+, you get Pokemon like Kabutops and Mega Garchomp, who can be incredibly dangerous Pokemon, but they need a fair amount of support to be as good as they could be. This isn't the case for Starmie: I doesn't require NEARLY as much support as these Pokemon to be used to it's full potential. As this is the case, I feel Starmie would even fit nicely in A-.

Not going to tackle the Chomp for A argument as it quite obviously needs to remain A+.

EDIT: Thank god, someone deleted it.
 
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posting on behalf of CrashinBoomBang cause he cbf:

i honestly don't think tyranitar is A+ material in this metagame, and i feel rather strongly about that. the problem is that all the "good" sets don't do the thing it's supposed to do most of the time: provide sand support. scarf tyranitar is imo its best non smooth rock set and it's okay, but thats why it's A and not any lower. scarf allows you to kill some dangerous threats such as pinsir, charizard, gardevoir, weakened medicham/heracross and slightly weakened +2 sharp/maw. focus sash stealth rock is an ok lead but kinda eclipsed by terrakion since the sand isnt enough to warrant using it if you're using it in a suicidial fashion since it only lasts for 5 turns. and fast taunt/close combat are so much more valuable than anything tyrantiar can offer too. smooth rock provides sand support but the efficiency at which it does this is pathetic lol. it has 0 offensive presence since it kinda needs all the bulk it can get to come in repeatedly (and, no, for anyone who says that base 134 attack and base 95 special attack are enough uninvested, they really arent in xy. like 80% to sdef gliscor with ice beam and 37% to keldeo with eq is not "enough"). it also has probably one of the worst 4 mss syndromes known to man since it wants stealth rock, fire blast for mawile/bisharp/scizor/ferro(mawile being the most important here), ice beam for scor and lando t, stone edge for zards and mandibuzz and probably lots of other shit, earthquake for terrakion (this is a lot more important than it sounds since otherwise terrakion comes in for absolute free instead of 75% and kills off your team one by one), pursuit to punish lati/politoed because what does coming in do if you can't even trap them and probably a lot of other moves. thats 6 moves minimum and, while having a 4mss also means being unpredictable it really doesn't for tyranitar as most of the time it will just be your cookie cutter sr/beam/blast/stab set because it kind of HAS to pass up all these other great moves to use something thats at least halfway reliable at covering most stuff. add to that the fact that tyranitar has 0 recovery, often switches into shit like latios without even having pursuit which means it has to do it more than once and its general vulnerability to getting worn down and you have a terrible sand support pokemon that people like to oversell for its ability to do... something? i still dont know what this does well and even on sand offense id honestly prefer hippowdon to have some kind of safety net against shit like mega pinsir/thund thats not called "revenge killing with excadrill". I honestly don't even think its sand support set is anywhere above A- and it's only its diversity and ability to run other sets somewhat effectively (and bluff the megatar which makes it seem a lot more dangerous than it is when you have gyara on your team for example) that pushes it to A. tyranitars time at the top of the metagame is over, and anyone who doesnt realize this is honestly kidding themselves because it honestly can't keep up with all the power this gen. i mean, i hate arguments like this, but fuck it can barely even handle 1 pokemon in S-rank that should give you a good idea of how many pokemon in this metagame smack it around (zard wins with outrage against anything but scarf, thund wins with focus blast/superpower vs anything but scarf or gimmicks like chople, land only loses to scarf ice beam really, azu and keldeo and mawile win regardless of what it has except for gimmicks such as physdef counter/specs fire blast but you get my point, the sand support aka the "good" set just doesnt have what it takes to keep up with this metagame).

mandibuzz to A- is fine, it's still a really great pokemon especially against sand but yea terrakion being so common hampers it a lot

mew and slowbro are SO long overdue, full support. can even see slowbro rise even more if it keeps performing like it does because good lord lol

no experience with alomo/amoong but every time i fight them they piss me the fuck off so i guess theyre doing something right. fine with me.

never been a fan of goth/zapdos and conk was really just early xy hype so yea im fine with moving them the fuck down. zapdos is still really annoying though so im a bit leery about moving it down but i guess it also can't keep up with the current surge of medi/garde/hera.

i might move zone up to like B+ to be honest, it's a stellar pokemon in this metagame not only for team support via magnet pull but because its specs set is insanely powerful. like, insanely really fucking powerful. scarf is a decent revenge killer and one of the better pinsir checks as unlike heatran it doesnt take ~40% switching into stab moves and it still has a good enough speedtier and typing/movepool/stats to kill stuff like non av azu, specs keldeo, life orb terrakion, slightly weakened thund and even lando with hp ice. missing out on starmie/torn-t/ninja kind of sucks, all of those barring starmie also outspeed scarftar and scarftar is still damn good.

what has rhyperior done/shown lately that warrants moving it up? especially into the league of pokemon such as magnezone who are not only stellar but also representated a lot and perform well every game? i thought it was on the rise as an "aegislash check" (lol) so I can't really see what it does this metagame. this is a serious question btw so if someone could clear this up that would be cool.

jirachi defo deserves a rank even though i still think its mediocre, sylveon is funny in that i always thought it was garbage but afaik mcmeghan has been destroying some ladder with specs sylveon which is strong as FUCK so yea idk i honestly dont think its any worse than rhyperior (unless someone tells me what exactly it does this metagame, especially compared to metagames before this one). no opinion on cress i just know that it's even more fucking annoying than amoonguss/fish so fair enough.

haxorus, i think, isnt any worse than salamence so id definitely group them together. hell, i actually think it's better than salamence because it still outspeeds the most relevant scarfer(s) (lando-t, excadrill even though it's bad) that salamence can still outspeed. to be fair, i think it's better than mence because at least it has some way of getting past azu who is EVERYWHERE and the popularity of magnezone only really helps it. i have no practical experience with it, but it shouldnt be anywhere below mence.

all the recommended mega changes i agree with, (moving scizor down and the other three up).

id move victini to B+ even. its typing is terrifying for handling all 3 of the megas and thats completely disregarding some of the other shit it can do and the efficiency at which it does it. victini has the tools to muscle through anything it wants to thanks to v-create and a diverse movepool and a fantastic typing to boot, so i dont see why it shouldnt be B+, in the same league in which magnezone should be i m o

staraptor is terrifying but it's kind of shortlived and needs band to break through the bulkiest of walls. i do, however, think it's not better than/as good as magnezone/victini, so if they dont move up all the way to B+ i wouldnt move this big boy up to B either. if you move them up all the way there then B is fine with me because ive honestly gotten crushed by its speed and power more than once; its a nightmare for balanced teams and scarf is one of the few reliable revenge killers to all 3 of the "new" megas.

really no opinion about omastar/zygarde/toxicroak, the only good thing i can say about omastar is that it's good at dodging hydro pumps and hitting its own :) ! oh and toxicroak isnt bad i guess because poison stab is a LOT better than most people make it out to be since it not only crushes fairies but also shit like mvenu which most fighters would kill for.

uhhh granbull honestly i only fought once and it switches into heras rock blast then died to +1 rock blast after it switched into swords dance the next time. it's really not all that good but if you want to rank it im not going to oppose it lol

thats all, sorry for the long message but i felt like getting all of this out, especially about tyranitar.
slightly adjusted for context
 
C- is damn rough for Hawlucha, he is really frail no doubt about that but the subSD does crazy damage and is not that gimmicky, after the sitrus berry being used, he is really fast and acrobatics + Hjk is tearing apart a lot of things even at +0. Thundurus / Talonflame are a problem, and setting up is pretty harsh, but he's far from being as bad as Gastrodon, Zygarde or Venomoth.

For me the gap between C and B is like the difference between "playable" and "unplayable", some C ranked mons can actually do something in OU, crawdaunt is not that awful for example. If Entei is B rank, i don't see how they can be under a mon as wack as that, if you can find a niche for entei you can easily find a way to play hawlucha or crawdaunt effectively.
 
With the big three of mega wallbreakers way more common right now (Hera/Medi/Gard), mew becoming more and more solid a choice (or being recognized for it's stall breaking abilities) and just the general presence of stall/wallbreakers in the metagame, is Gothitelle really worth a slot in B? Remember that B houses pokemon like Manectric-Mega, Starmie (who has been getting a lot of positive attention recently), Alomomola, Conkeldurr and Aerodactyl-mega, whose current ability to stop birdspam is being underrated. None of these pokemon suffer from being as one sided as Goth is: If a target doesn't exist for it, it is basically fodder/deadweight. People say that this is basically the case when it plays offense, I'm going to believe this. Currently, there are even better answers for it's own job in stall breaking, mainly mew.

Mew may not be able to trap, but it sits at a great speed for wisp spam, has access to knock off AND recovery, and can basically infinitely prevent the opponent from recovering. Not only that, it can have a minor investment of 44 speed evs to burn offensive threats like Bisharp (adamant) and heracross. It has bulk to survive both physical and special hits, and can take away items with relative ease. Also, the fact that it can counter mega medicham basically naturally can't be overlooked. All these roles, goth fails to provide. In short, I believe goth simply cannot be justified for stall breaking when it faces competition from a pokemon that can in many cases, 6-0 a stall team. I don't even think B- is a proper place for Goth, as that would be implying it is as effective as magnezone, rhyperior, victini and multiple other mons (What the hell is absol-mega doing there?). I personally would argue C because it is completely overshadowed by Mew and in a role that has many more better options, but C+ has Thundurus-t so I could believe that would work.

Not pushing for a ranking improvement, but part of TRC's (Cbb's) post mentioned that Rhyperior was good, didn't necessarily understand why it was ranked so high or something along that line. As someone who has used it extensively since the aegislash ban, it is as good as advertised. Currently, it is probably the best Pinsir-mega stop, as skarmory is now finding some issues with CC sets. Not only that, it is basically the all-in-one bird spam stop, taking talonflame basically effortlessly. I haven't seen a hawlucha take it on yet, but just for taking starraptor/pinsir/talonflame basically flawlessly, as well as absorbing almost every physical attack not grass/water, it's a pretty damn good mon. It straight up takes terrakion leads like it's nothing, taking less than 50% from a close combat. The sheer bulk is in the same ballpark as mega aggron's, but there's arguably a better defensive typing for the current metagame as Rhyperior is also basically the most efficient ZardX counter in the metagame, having a chance to even survive a +2 Outrage.

+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rhyperior: 378-445 (87 - 102.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Every other set, Rhyperior is easily countering, taking just over 50% max from +1 dragon claw, easily remedied by leftovers. While it does need clerical support to fullfill this, this is already basically a necessity on stall. I don't see anything wrong with the rank it has, besides the fact that it may eventually be too low given the metagame importance of catching pinsir and zardx now.
 
I have recently been using a 252HP/252+ Sp Def Tentacruel with black sludge as combined rapid spinner and special wall, and found it to be very effective. It can toxic threats and then wait them out. Fourth slot can be the obvious Protect or the more situational Knock Off.

Mixed wall Tentacruel is a dead duck as it doesn't have enough bulk on either special or physical side, but pure special wall Tentacruel is very, very hard to specially kill. Standard Mega Char Y, for example, can't do better than a 60% chance to 4HKO unless it is packing Earthquake, and you can scout that and live longer by using Protect.

Just to show how bulky it is: even a choice specs Raikou only does 84% with frickin' choice specs on with a STAB supereffective thunderbolt.

As bulky spinners go, I'd say it's right up there. Nothing likes risking a scald to the face either, making it a gamble to switch into even if you aren't using the 100% accurate toxic. Or you can go with the knock off option.

And with the return of rain teams, it's even more effective.

Overall, I'd like to nominate it for some kind of C rank, even if it is just C-.
 

alexwolf

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Update time:

Mega Heracross: A- ---> A
Mega Gardevoir: A- ---> A
Mega Medicham: A- ---> A
Mega Scizor: A+ ---> A
Terrakion: A ---> A+
Tyranitar: Stays in A
Mandibuzz: A ---> A-
Mew: A- ---> A
Amoonguss: B+ ---> A-
Slowbro: B+ ---> A-
Alomomola: B ---> B+
Conkeldurr: B ---> C+
Gothitelle: B ---> B-
Zapdos: B+ ---> B
Magnezone: B- ---> B
Sylveon: B- ---> C+
Jirachi: Unranked ---> C
Cresselia: C ---> C+
Haxorus: C- ---> D
Salemence: C- ---> D
Sableye: C+ ---> B-
Hawlucha: C- ---> C
Sharpedo: C- ---> D
Victini: B- ---> B
Omastar: C ---> C+
Zygarde: C ---> D
Toxicroak: Unranked ---> C-
Granbull: Unranked ---> D


Terrakion, Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham, and Mega Gardevoir: Aegislash getting banned was a blessing for those four, and with its absence there is no denying how strong and influential Pokemon they are. Everyone agrees with this, so i won't explain anything else here.

Mega Scizor: Mega Scizor is an excellent Pokemon but it finds it hard to sweep in this metagame, so it prefers taking defensive and utility roles, such as checking offensive Pokemon with Bullet Punch, pivoting with U-turn, providing utility with Defog, and checking physical attackers. Those roles are great and all, but Mega Scizor is not threatening enough to be in A+, which causes it to be taken advantage by some really dangerous Pokemon such as Mega Charizard X and Y, Keldeo, Thundurus, Mega Mawile, Mega Gyarados, and Talonflame.

Tyranitar: Check CBB's post which is quoted in this page by TRC.

Mandibuzz: Mandibuzz struggles with the new offensive threats that are becoming popular, namely Terrakion, Mega Heracross, and Mega Gardevoir, meaning that it's becoming a bit less relevant as a defensive threat. However, it still handles quite a big number of dangerous Pokemon (Landorus, Garchomp, Talonflame, Excadrill, Mega Scizor, regular Gyarados, DD Mega Charizard X, Dragonite, and Breloom), and provides lots of utility with Defog, Taunt, Knock Off, and Toxic, which is why it didn't drop in B+.

Mew: Excellent stallbreaker, excellent Defog user, very hard to kill, fast enough to keep up with offensive monsters such as Mega Heracross, few exploitable weaknesses, what else do you want me to say? You all agree anyway, so just go on to the next Pokemon.

Amoonguss: With the resurgence of the three offensive Megas that Aegislash held back (Medi, Garde, Hera), giving up your Mega slot on Mega Venusaur is not always easy, so Amoonguss is here to fill this gap. It deals with the two most threatening Water-types in OU, Keldeo and Azumarill, has Spore and Stun Spore to make it somewhat threatening, has good all around bulk and a great defensive typing, and it never dies thanks to Regenerator. This means that it can reliably check many big threats such as Thundurus, Mega Gyarados, Rotom-W, Gengar, Terrakion, Gliscor (With HP Ice), and Breloom, and has become one of the premiere defensive Grass-type of XY OU.

Slowbro: Terrakion counter? Check. Mega Medicham counter? Check. Mega Charizard X counter? Check. Hidden Power Grass-less Greninja counter? Check. Anyway, you get the drill, Slowbro walls like half the Pokemon out of S and A rank atm, is not easy to take advantage of thanks to access to three kind of status moves and a decent SpA stat, and never dies thanks to Regenerator and Slack Off. Definitely one of the best defensive Water-types in the metagame.

Alomomola: I know it's getting repetitive to talk about the same Pokemon in each update, but bear with me :D. Alomomola slowly but steadily has proved how good of a Wish passer it is, keeping healthy a ton of good defensive Pokemon that lack recovery, such as Heatran, Tyranitar, Mega Ampharos, Chesnaught, Rhyperior, and Victini. It also has double status to make the opponent think twice before switching in, as well as Regenerator to allow it to focus on healing its teammates instead of itself. It also checks a lot of stuff, and even though set up sweepers are its bane, there are plenty of defensive and offensive Pokemon that pair well with Alomomola and can deal with those.

Conkeldurr: Now that the hype about Assault Vest Conk has died down, the ugly truth has started revealing: Conkeldurr is not a great, or even a good Pokemon, it's just ok. It lacks recovery and thus gets worn down very fast, its slow as ass and almost always needs to take a hit first except when facing Pokemon weak to Mach Punch, is easy to wall with threatening MEvos being everywhere, and in top of this three MEvos that can take advantage of Conkeldurr easily have risen in usage and viability over the last weeks, namely Mega Medicham, Mega Gardevoir, and Mega Heracross, all of which can switch with relative ease into Conkeldurr and take advantage of it.

Gothitelle: Gothitelle is an ok Pokemon, but it's kinda niche for B. It provides no defensive synergy on a team, which puts a big strain on teambuilding and shows that you can't just slap Gothitelle on a team and call it a day. Also, there are a lot of scary wallbreakers that are able to fuck up stall teams, so Gothitelle lost one of her previous roles. Her main function is partnering up with sweepers and removing their counters, which is good enough for B-, but too one sided for B.

Zapdos: Zapdos doesn't like the effects that Aegislash's absence from the metagame has had. Terrakion, Mega Gardevoir, and Mega Heracross are all Pokemon that scare Zapdos shitless, and even though Zapdos is a good check to birdspam teams that have started becoming a bit more popular, her worse performance against almost any other kind of offensive team means it's not B+ material anymore.

Magnezone: Magnezone can trap almost any Steel-type for a team, can outspeed and check many offensive Pokemon with a Scarf set (Keldeo, Terrakion, Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Mega Gardevoir, Dragonite, Landorus, Garchomp (you need HP Ice for the last three)), has Volt Switch to keep momentum even when it's choiced, and has great bulk and resistances to even switch into some of the Pokemon it wants to trap or revenge kill. It's reliable and a great offensive support Pokemon that deserves to be in B rank.

Sylveon: Mostly outclassed by Clefable outside of a strong Hyper Voice and the ability to use a Specs set, which is why it's falling to C+ and not any lower.

Jirachi: Can check / counter Greninja, Clefable, Latios, Latias, Mega Gardevoir, Thundurus, Mega Venusaur, Kyurem-B, Mega Alakazam, and a few other threats, has useful stuff to do against the Pokemon it walls, such as passing Wishes or spreading status, and also has a very decent Scarf set. C is good for it for now, it may rise a bit higher in the future.

Cresselia: Some people have compared it to Mew, and fairly so. However, Cresselia has a few things over it: huge bulk, Levitate (which lets it counter Pokemon that Mew can't, such as Excadrill and Garchomp), and Lunar Dance (a great way to support sweepers). Those three traits make Cresselia C+ rank worthy, as it's quite a useful Pokemon on defensive teams for its ability to handle a plethora of dangerous Pokemon, while also being able to fit on some bulky offense teams thanks to Lunar Dance.

Haxorus, Salamence, and Zygarde: Mostly outclassed Dragon-types that have no use in OU outside of some very niche roles on DragMag teams.

Sableye: One of stall's few counters to Mega Medicham, great stallbreaker that also beats some dangerous stallbreakers such as Gengar and Mew.

Hawlucha: Aegislash leaves from OU and Hawulucha becomes much more viable, as it's now able to clean up much easier against all kinds of teams. Yes it needs support in order to set up and because priority users hurt it, but not that much support to put it in the same rank as way more situational Pokemon such as Ludicolo, Tornadus, and Dugtrio.

Sharpedo: I don't even know why someone would want to use Sharpedo, so i am putting it in D rank for now just to give some time to anyone that wants me to keep it ranked to provide a proper explanation as to why i should keep it ranked.

Victini: Mega Medicham and Mega Gardevoir hard check is crazy good for stall and defensive teams in general, TauntWoW is a really cool set. It also helps that it has great synergy with most Wish passers, such as Clefable, Alomomola, and Chansey. Finally, it's offensive sets are cool too, especially a recent innovation i have been hearing about, SubPuP with V-Create and Bolt Strike.

Omastar: Better than most C rank stuff mostly, it's hard to fit on rain teams but its combination of power and Speed under rain is absurd, not to mention that you hardly need any prediction when using (just a lucky charm because fuck Hydro Pump).

Toxicroak: Niche rain mon similarly to Torn-I, also can be used on offensive teams that struggle with a lot of popular mons, such as Keldeo, Azumarill, Terrakion, Clefable, Suicune, Alomomola, and Breloom. It's also not that easy to wall with Aegislash gone, so Drain Punch + Gunk Shot / Ice Punch + Sucker Punch is great coverage.

Granbull: Good Mega Medicham and Mega Heracross check that also checks a lot of physical Pokemon and has a decent amount of support options, such as Heal Bell, Thunder Wave, and Roar. Also hits hard enough to beat a lot of the Pokemon it checks.


Pokemon to discuss

Starmie rising to B+
Victini rising to B+
Magnezone rising to B+
Hawlucha rising to C+
Suicune rising to A-
Azelf rising to B-

And that's it, though keep in mind the verdict about Mega Mawile's tiering will be coming soon, so no update will take place before this happens, unless it's totally urgent.
 
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Entei B- is still really bugging me, yeah you can burn things with sacred fire, but this thing is just terrible imo lol. Good stats, weird movepool, uni-typing is pretty bad, and i don't see any reason to play it when heatran has SR / a better typing and Victini is a better defensive mon. Even Darmanitan is a better all-around-hits-like-a-truck-monofire-type.

  • Hawlucha should be C+, even B-, look what i said 2/3 post from that, C sounds like "unplayable in OU" to me, and Hawlucha is not unplayable by any means.
  • Magnezone is a weird case to rank, ranking trappers is weird because it depends on what your opponent is playing, besides the fact that you can trap steel types, magnezone doesn't really have a lot going for him, and with the team preview you are not even sure to get the job done since most of the player will be aware that they have to keep their steel type. B+ is a bit too much to me.
  • Crocune is really a pain to deal with, but i'm having an hard time ranking it, it can't be on everyteam and against really offensive teams you can have an hard time setting up, B+ is good enough imo
  • Victini, like doublade, is becoming the new swiss-knife as the "mon who checks the same things like aegislash since he is banned", he does a pretty good job at checking medicham / gardevoir, but it sounds like a really last resort in a stall team to not be 6-0'd by them and i don't see him shine in any other style than that. The offensive versions are rare and he is a bit too sr weak / slow to really deal crazy damages. B+ is a bit generous but i don't mind it since he is doing pretty good at the job he needs to do, which is checking medicham / gardevoir.
 
Wow, I was just about to post a reply stating how Mola should be moved up a rank.

Anyways, on to Greninja...

Yeah, this guy...

I believe that it isn't too unreasonable to request that this guy be elevated up to S Rank.

Again, I can't add anything new to the front, but I think that the arguments supporting his rise are viable ones. Aside from the fact that people are incredibly harsh on him due to his frailty, S Rank no longer determines Pokemon that are broken as fuqq (well, besides MMaw): now it's just the Pokemon who perform very very well. In that regard, Greninja has always performed very well for me, and several others as well. Aside from spinning, there is literally no good reason I've seen to use Starmie over him. He also reaches a shocking level of power thanks to his Protean ability, and gets STAB on his coverage moves allowing THEM to hit things hard as well: something that Keldeo could only dream of (lol Icy Wind). With Extrasensory he can break through Offensive AND Defensive/Sp.Defensive Mega Venusaur without fear of dying, something Keldeo can't do at all, even with HP Flying. I could write more instances where Greninja performs just as well as Keldeo but there are a lot (I'm fully aware Keldeo has many instances where she outperforms ninja too).

The ONE reason to keep him from S Rank is the fact that he can't get past Chansey, but that's it. If not S Rank, then I believe he should be firmly placed in the "Conclusion Reached" area.​
 
S rank is a pretty exceptionnal rank, you can't give it to every mon in the metagame. I think we already have too much mons in S rank, some of them could be S- (Keldeo for example)

Greninja doesn't deserve to be S because:
  • He is really frail, you can't switch on anything with it.
  • He is pretty predictable, only one set is viable on it. You can play spikes but you won't be as scary with only 3 offensive moves.
  • He suffers heavily from 4MSS, especially for hidden power.
  • He has clear counters/checks that he can't break through easily : Chansey, Ferrothorn/Rotom-w depending on which hidden power you have, AV Azumarill, AV Kyube...
  • You can't really put it on any team that is not hyper offense, and he doesn't have any utility beside sweeping.
Greninja is a great pokemon yeah but he is not an S rank mon.
 
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