Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Clone]

I'm on my phone so I can't post what I want to. But what's the opinion on pinsir? Is he still deserving of A+ rank?

Easily. Hes one of the scariest sweepers in OU after a boost, as Return/Frustration OHKOes/2HKOes all non resists, and even a few resists (+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 175-207 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery). On top of all this, Quick Attack is insanely powerful for a priority move, and can allow Pinsir to revenge kill faster threats with a bit of prior damage.

Also he and Talonflame form the infamous Birdspam core that breaks each others checks and counters. He even got better with the banning of Aegislash, so I dont really see a reason why he would move down...

 

[Numera]

I've been using offensive Starmie after the Aegislash ban and I think it definitely deserves a B. Not sure about a B+ though, as Ferrothorn is still quite common. Offensive Starmie doesn't really have a way to get past it. It takes a lot of damage after every spin and Ferro can just set it back up. Not sure if running a reflect type defensive set is worth it for that one pokemon.

Edit: Also, it doesn't help that Starmie needs to survive both Iron Barbs and Life Orb recoil to get a spin off.

Oh please... The defensive set is NOT just for Ferrothorn. Defensive Reflect Type is mainly for pursuit trappers and creating hazard stacking stall. It's CERTAINLY worth it.

Regardless, with all the Magnezone running around, (I mean c'mon it traps every steel type bar heatran and drill effectively and checks birdspam what's not to love) you can expect Ferro usage to go down. Anyway, if Ferro is stopping Starmie moving up, shouldn't that mean Ferro should stop Excadrill going up? No, it means neither. This one Pokemon won't stop an increase in rank for this fantastic spinner who's pros I have already listed.

 

[Karxrida]

Can we just move Excadrill to S already? It's the best spinner period, can check Birdspam and revenge sweepers with Scarf, and will kill your team dead with Sand Rush. If Keldeo deserves S then so does the TPK machine.

 

[Numera]

Can we just move Excadrill to S already? It's the best spinner period, can check Birdspam and revenge sweepers with Scarf, and will kill your team dead with Sand Rush. If Keldeo deserves S then so does the TPK machine.

Excadrill is very worthy of it's A+ rank, but it has too many cons to be S and isn't extremely easy to slap on a team like an S rank mon should be. For the Sand set to work in the first place you have to run Tyranitar, who shares a lot of common weaknesses with Excadrill. What happens when you are not running the sand set to spin because you TRY to just slap it on? You have to use the scarf set, which hates being locked into EQ or Rapid Spin. Both are bad moves to get locked into most of the time. Pretty much my point is that Excadrill's weakness to common types and support required to use it's best set prevents it from being S rank, as all of the other S rank Pokemon can be slapped on a team and be used to their full potential/are not weak to multiple common types.

 

[Niftyyyy]

I think Excadrill is worthy of S rank.

Considering the metagame is shifting more and more towards offense many teams are running dedicated leads. Excadrill pretty much undoes the work of these leads and there is nothing that you can do about it.

Gengar can't spin block the sand rush version either because it has to eat a powerful iron head.

It can basically act as a really high speed, high powered scarfer with the ability to switch moves like deoxys speed.

The main drawback is the need to run smooth rock Tyranitar, however S rank mons are not required to be perfect at this point.

Excadrill is practically unstoppable at Spinning alongside T tar. Rock slide on Excadrill also frees up space on T tar for rocks or additional coverage.

 

[Numera]

I think Excadrill is worthy of S rank.

Considering the metagame is shifting more and more towards offense many teams are running dedicated leads. Excadrill pretty much undoes the work of these leads and there is nothing that you can do about it.

Gengar can't spin block the sand rush version either because it has to eat a powerful iron head.

It can basically act as a really high speed, high powered scarfer with the ability to switch moves like deoxys speed.

The main drawback is the need to run smooth rock Tyranitar, however S rank mons are not required to be perfect at this point.

Excadrill is practically unstoppable at Spinning alongside T tar. Rock slide on Excadrill also frees up space on T tar for rocks or additional coverage.

This doesn't make it S rank. As I've said, an S rank mon needs almost NO support to be used to its full potential and can be slapped on multiple teams. An S rank mon doesn't need to be perfect but it certainly has to come under those requirements IMO. Excadrill doesn't because, again, it's weak to common types and needs Tyranitar, who shares many of Excadrill's weaknesses, to be used to it's full potential.

 

[pj]

Can we just move Excadrill to S already? It's the best spinner period, can check Birdspam and revenge sweepers with Scarf, and will kill your team dead with Sand Rush. If Keldeo deserves S then so does the TPK machine.

I think Excradrill should not be in S has it has so many weakness and its difficult to kill team has many pokemon like Rotom-wash and counter it easily and with scarf it can sweep but its good Spinner so it will make good spinner into No use.

 

[Niftyyyy]

This doesn't make it S rank. As I've said, an S rank mon needs almost NO support to be used to its full potential and can be slapped on multiple teams. An S rank mon doesn't need to be perfect but it certainly has to come under those requirements IMO. Excadrill doesn't because, again, it's weak to common types and needs Tyranitar, who shares many of Excadrill's weaknesses, to be used to it's full potential.

If you want to have a decent team with Landorus or Thundurus you need an offensive Pivot, Chansey or Clefable that can sponge Greninja, Raikou and Mega Manectrics attacks. For offensive teams the options are very slim. Assault Vest Azumarill is one nearly every offensive team will go to because Clefable likes going bold with defense investment and Chansey loses momentum. Goodra is just not that good either.

Thundurus wants spin support as well or it is almost forced to run leftovers. Now its not running at optimum because it loses a tonne of damage output.

Charizard X NEEDS rapid spin or defog support. Those spinners or defoggers need their own support! Like Excadrill... the latis or Starmie.

Keldeo needs support dealing with Mega Venusaur, Amoongus or the latis if it is to operate near its full potential.

All Pokemon in S rank still need considerable support if the team is to function as a cohesive unit. They are still S rank.

 

[Numera]

If you want to have a decent team with Landorus or Thundurus you need an offensive Pivot, Chansey or Clefable that can sponge Greninja, Raikou and Mega Manectrics attacks.

Charizard X NEEDS rapid spin or defog support. Those spinners or defoggers need their own support! Like Excadrill...

Keldeo needs support dealing with Mega Venusaur, Amoongus or the latis if it is to operate near its full potential.

All Pokemon in S rank still need considerable support if the team is to function as a cohesive unit.

Tbh, considering Specs Keldeo runs HP Flying it really doesn't require said support for Mega Venusaur. May agree on amoongus though.

But that's not the point. Can Excadrill be slapped on ANY team and be used to its full potential? No. These pokemon, while they may need a tad of support, can be slapped on any team at all and still be used to their full potential. They still for furfill their role as best as they can, while Excadrill needs Tyranitar to do this. You also have not tackled the common weakness argument.

 

[Niftyyyy]

Tbh, considering Specs Keldeo runs HP Flying it really doesn't require said support for Mega Venusaur. May agree on amoongus though.

But that's not the point. Can Excadrill be slapped on ANY team and be used to its full potential? No. These pokemon, while they may need a tad of support, can be slapped on any team at all and still be used to their full potential. They still for furfill their role as best as they can, while Excadrill needs Tyranitar to do this. You also have not tackled the common weakness argument.

Venusaur is not 2hkod by HP flying. Not only do you want to have a powerful psychic or flying attack to deal with it you also run the risk when you switch out of taking a potential sleep powder requiring more support unless you want to lose a mon. You can't rely on scald to break past Venusaur and Pursuit support is still really wanted for the latis. If you pick Icy wind than you NEED support for the Venusaur. If you let Mega Gyarados in it can set up meaning support also for that Mon.

Also the support I mentioned is not a tiny bit its just as much as running T tar or Hippowden for Excadrill IMO.

The common weakness argument is flawed because Excadrill can out speed everything in sand and is still guaranteed to do its job of spinning or dishing out some serious damage/ cleaning late game depending on what is needed more at the time.

 

[Numera]

Venusaur is not 2hkod by HP flying. Not only do you want to have a powerful psychic or flying attack to deal with it you also run the risk when you switch out of taking a potential sleep powder requiring potentially more support. You can't rely on scald to break past Venusaur.

Also the support I mentioned is not a tiny bit its just as much as running T tar or Hippowden for Excadrill IMO.

The common weakness argument is flawed because Excadrill can out speed everything in sand and is still guaranteed to do its job of spinning or dishing out some serious damage/ cleaning late game depending on what is needed more at the time.

It certainly isn't flawed, as far as I can see non of the other S ranked Pokemon have so many common weaknesses.

AGAIN, regardless of the S Rank Pokemon needing support, they can still be used to their full potential without it. Having support will help with its counters, but the Pokemon in question will still be countered by the counters. Excadrill is different in a sense that it needs Tyranitar to use it's best set effectively. I can run AV Azumarril to its full potential without support and the same goes for all the other S Rank mons, they just like support to make their job easier. Excadrill NEEDS the support to even be at its full potential.

 

[Baharoth]

Going by my recent experience with my sand rush team i feel like Exca should move down rather than up. I used the team to get voting reqs on the Deoxys suspect ladder and back then LO Exca was realy amazing (though still no S rank material), against the HO teams that were everywhere he got so many easy sweeps in the sand it wasnt even funny. Lately it feels like the meta has shifted in a way that realy hampers Excadrill. There are LOTS of Lando-T around, i feel like its on overy second team lately, as well as many Azumarills, Rotom-ws and Brelooms. All 4 of them shut Exca down for good turning him into more of an liability rather than an asset. Even after replacing Rapid Spin with Swords Dance he cant realy pull a sweep off.
And Sand Rush is arguably his best set and imo it saw better days. Dunno about his other sets because i never found them very useful.

In any case, like Terrodave pointed out he has far to many flaws for S rank.

 

[Prinz]

Excadrill shouldnt rly go up in S rank. Its an amazing revenge-killer, sweeper, rapid spinner and very good pokèmon overall, but it just doesnt fit the S Rank since it absolutely needs the support of the sandstorm to be threatening, and if you are using it with Tyranitar as you should do, Excadrill shares a lot of weaknesses with it, which isn't rly good. The Scarf set isnt bad either but it rly doesnt want to lock itself into EQ and Rapid Spin because of the many setuppers that can take advantage of it. Also, you can't swap Excadrill in any team and it'll work, it does an amazing job but only in sand offense teams, because of that I think that it's fine in the A+ rank.

 

[Synchronation]

Poor Doublade didn't rise...

I have nothing to add to it right now, but I still think it should go to C-.

Magnezone for B+:
I want this Pokemon moving up. With less Mandibuzz comes more Skarmory which helps Magnezone ALOT. Steel-types are still very great and having a Pokemon that can reliably kill them with almost no prediction needed is very useful. Teams that are relying on Skarmory as Defogger or Ferrothorn as Hazard-setter have very much trouble to keep hazard under control, Pursuit-Scizor can be lured in with Lati@s and killed safely. It supports the team with eliminating certain threats and still hits hard with a Choice-Specs set or acts as a revenge-killer with the Choice-Scarf set. Definitely a B+ Pokemon.

Azelf for B:
This Pokemon needs a big jump imo. After the ban of Deoxys it is one of the most reliable hazard-setters for HO teams. Access to Stealth Rock, Screens, Explosion, Taunt and even Magic Coat lets it do a similar job like Deoxys. It is in a nice speed tier (better than Deoxys-D) and outspeeds most other Taunters (except Prankster, but Magic Coat can help here). It is definitely not a Pokemon for C-rank, and B- seems too low for me. I suggest B.

Suicune for A-:
Waterabsorb is a rare ability in this metagame, so nothing can stop its Scald-spam. After one CM it can pass through some of its counters (it can beat Mega-Venusaur after one or two Calm Minds) and has probably the best Rest-Talking set in the game. It has also a more aggressive and very underrated set in form of Scald/Ice Beam/HP Electric/CM which can surprise unprepared teams and deal heavy damage. Not many people are prepared for Suicune and therefore it happens very often that you can meet a team weak to it. A great win condition for bulky offensive and a more aggressive option for stall teams. Needs to rise.

Excadrill staying in A+:
This Pokemon is perfectly fine where it is. Sand-Rush versions need Sandstorm support and can be stopped by other weather mons especially Charizard-Y. Even with its resistance to Flying, Brave Bird from Talonflame does a ton of damage. It also kinda lacks in power (135 base attack aren't THAT awesome anymore...) so many physical walls can counter it way too easily (Skarmory, Hippowdon and Gliscor for example, Zapdos can Roost-stall Rock slide if it lacks LO).
The Scarf-set is a great revenge-killer but a bad spinner (never good to be locked in Rapid-Spin) so I don't see any of its sets to be good enough for an S rank. It is not easy to slap on a team like the other S-ranks and needs way too much support to be effective. The rise of Starmie hurts him too since it isn't the only offensive spinner anymore. In short: Great Pokemon, but not S rank material.

Off topic:
-Blastoise overshadows Conkeldurrs link.
-Cradwaunt doesn't like Cresselia (link doesn't work)
-Mega-Scizor is a victim of Rotom-W
-Gliscor walls Heracross
-sorry for the puns :D

 

[kabbes]

No comments about this?

I have recently been using a 252HP/252+ Sp Def Tentacruel with black sludge as combined rapid spinner and special wall, and found it to be very effective. It can toxic threats and then wait them out. Fourth slot can be the obvious Protect or the more situational Knock Off.

Mixed wall Tentacruel is a dead duck as it doesn't have enough bulk on either special or physical side, but pure special wall Tentacruel is very, very hard to specially kill. Standard Mega Char Y, for example, can't do better than a 60% chance to 4HKO unless it is packing Earthquake, and you can scout that and live longer by using Protect.

Just to show how bulky it is: even a choice specs Raikou only does 84% with frickin' choice specs on with a STAB supereffective thunderbolt.

As bulky spinners go, I'd say it's right up there. Nothing likes risking a scald to the face either, making it a gamble to switch into even if you aren't using the 100% accurate toxic. Or you can go with the knock off option.

And with the return of rain teams, it's even more effective.

Overall, I'd like to nominate it for some kind of C rank, even if it is just C-.

 

[Synchronation]

No comments about this?

I already suggested Tentacruel for D-rank so I completely agree with you. Just want to point out that it has a good recovery in Rain Teams (therefor a good spinner in the rain) and can make Mega-Venusaur trouble thanks to its ability.

 

[garchomp11111]

Just wanna point out this is really wrong.

Espeon to C Rank

Espeon just sucks when compared to other C+ pokemon.Magic bounce is not that good in the tier anymore especially as stealth rock is the only common one and several amazing hazard removers like excadrll,starmie and the latis exist.Espeon is also really frail and loses to a lot of stealth rock setters.It also sucks offensively with psychic as it's Stab,which hits only a few mons SE and it is resisted by a lot of metagaming threats.It also has to switch into the off coming SR and if u predict wrong,it means the dead of espeonwith it's awful bulk.

 

[Synchronation]

Just wanna point out this is really wrong.

Espeon to C Rank

Espeon just sucks when compared to other C+ pokemon.Magic bounce is not that good in the tier anymore especially as stealth rock is the only common one and several amazing hazard removers like excadrll,starmie and the latis exist.Espeon is also really frail and loses to a lot of stealth rock setters.It also sucks offensively with psychic as it's Stab,which hits only a few mons SE and it is resisted by a lot of metagaming threats.It also has to switch into the off coming SR and if u predict wrong,it means the dead of espeonwith it's awful bulk.

Espeon is C+ for its ability to destroy stall teams on its own. However, stall teams are getting more and more active lately (CM Clefable or Suicune), its ability to bounce toxic and hazards away isn't really useful against them either. Most stall teams now have good answers to Espeon, so I agree with moving it down to C-rank.

 

[pj]

Just wanna point out this is really wrong.

Espeon to C Rank

Espeon just sucks when compared to other C+ pokemon.Magic bounce is not that good in the tier anymore especially as stealth rock is the only common one and several amazing hazard removers like excadrll,starmie and the latis exist.Espeon is also really frail and loses to a lot of stealth rock setters.It also sucks offensively with psychic as it's Stab,which hits only a few mons SE and it is resisted by a lot of metagaming threats.It also has to switch into the off coming SR and if u predict wrong,it means the dead of espeonwith it's awful bulk.

I argue its very Good in C+ rank it has good ability Magic Bounce that can be used when you are predicting for any Status or any setting. and in Baton Pass team its GOD has it becomes Sweeper in the team aside from it. it has very good speed and special Attack Stat which may help to Sweep team with life Orb and it can also learn Calm Mind which can help to increase Both Special Attack and Defense with subsitute it can also sweep.

 

[inferzaken]

Terrakion to A- or A

The choiced terrakion sets are not that good anymore because there are too many things to switch into one of its STAB moves and force it out. The non-choiced sets can work but i often find terrakion's damage output underwhelming and it gets outsped by common HO pokemon like lati@s, thunderus and greninga, and can only speed-tie with keldeo who's stabs are SE vs terrak. The lead set can work but usually (in my experience) it just ends up damaging one pokemon and getting up rocks, which lots of other things can do too. And as with most leads, priority wrecks it.

 

[escarlata]

Victini should def go up to B+ imo, mainly for its StallTini set. The usefulness of StallTini is phenomenal, being able to deal with so many threats to stall is just incredible. Out of the big 3 wallbreakers, MCham and MGarde fails to 2HKO with any moves and gets OHKOed by V-Create. MHera is outsped with just 56 Spe EVs and Victini makes a good switch into anything that's not Rock Blast. Tini takes on Stallbreaker Mew and BU Talonflame pretty decently. StallTini also has a pretty good matchup against opposing Stall teams thanks to a fast Taunt, immunity to WoW, and high BP moves with no drawbacks. It also takes on the mighty wallbreaker Charizard Y by resisting everything.

All I have covered is just one set out of the many which it can run. Band/Specs sets are incredible wallbreakers hitting extremely hard with V-Create and Blue Flare respectively. Scarf Final Gambit is basically a 1 turn Perish Song against most teams, being extremely handy to destroy defensive cores, or simply to remove a +6/+6 CroCune or something to that effect.

 

[Prinz]

inferzaken

I completely disagree with your post about Terrakion. Now that Aegislash isnt in the OU tier anymore, Terrakion can actually run more and more option in place of EQ that it rly needed to hit somehow Aegislash, Sword Dance, Taunt, Substitute and even HP Ice to hit Landorus-T which is going up in usage are all usable moves. Also its STABs aren't resisted to many mons anymore (just things like Toxicroak and Nidoqueen resist them, but they are both uncommon in OU) and its quite fast for the tier. Its also a rly reliable SR setter, having as I already said 2 strong STABs and Sword Dance or Taunt as support moves. It def deserves the A+ rank imo

 

[DartMonkey29]

Terrakion to A- or A

The choiced terrakion sets are not that good anymore because there are too many things to switch into one of its STAB moves and force it out. The non-choiced sets can work but i often find terrakion's damage output underwhelming and it gets outsped by common HO pokemon like lati@s, thunderus and greninga, and can only speed-tie with keldeo who's stabs are SE vs terrak. The lead set can work but usually (in my experience) it just ends up damaging one pokemon and getting up rocks, which lots of other things can do too. And as with most leads, priority wrecks it.

I don't agree with this in any way. Terrakion's best sets are the choiced ones, namely choice band. You mention that there are "too many things to switch into one of its moves and force it out," but you don't actually mention any. The offensive threats you mentioned either get OHKOd (Greninja and Thunderous), or in the case of Latias: 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 267-315 (73.3 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. This is assuming the Latias is DEFENSIVE meaning it cannot even OHKO back. The offensive version has a chance to be OHKOd, and with SR, has a 100% chance to be OHKOd. Yes there are of course things that outspeed it and can force it out, but the fact remains that it is fast, can force a number of things out, and is VERY hard to switch into. You need to backup your claim that there are lots of things that can switch into it before you can claim it's power is underwhelming.

 

[dadoux]

Victini should def go up to B+ imo, mainly for its StallTini set. The usefulness of StallTini is phenomenal, being able to deal with so many threats to stall is just incredible. Out of the big 3 wallbreakers, MCham and MGarde fails to 2HKO with any moves and gets OHKOed by V-Create. MHera is outsped with just 56 Spe EVs and Victini makes a good switch into anything that's not Rock Blast. Tini takes on Stallbreaker Mew and BU Talonflame pretty decently. StallTini also has a pretty good matchup against opposing Stall teams thanks to a fast Taunt, immunity to WoW, and high BP moves with no drawbacks. It also takes on the mighty wallbreaker Charizard Y by resisting everything.

All I have covered is just one set out of the many which it can run. Band/Specs sets are incredible wallbreakers hitting extremely hard with V-Create and Blue Flare respectively. Scarf Final Gambit is basically a 1 turn Perish Song against most teams, being extremely handy to destroy defensive cores, or simply to remove a +6/+6 CroCune or something to that effect.

I agree with it, but not the Mega heracross part. I don't really think you can come on pin missile that easily, especially when you lack a recovery move

 

[Celticpride]

-Gliscor walls Heracross

It doesn't completely wall SD Mega Cross, Mega Cross breaks through at +2.

+2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 245-290 (69.2 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

I don't really think anyone runs max def Gliscor anymore, that was just for the calc. It's not that hard for Mega Cross to come in on Chansey or something else it completely breaks and grab a boost on the subsequent switch. Even then, Gliscor can't OHKO Hera with STAB Aerial Ace (and who the hell runs max def AA Gliscor?)