Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

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I can agree with 4MSS, but first off I'd like to say Passive mons (sadly Thundy I is one of em, #26 in usage may be good but he's hard to stick on teams now) are irrelivent and Gren is one pokemon, although very meta influencing. Honestly, even then MVenu isn't really scary to teams anymore, atleast for me. One thing about the 4MSS is that it will have its strengths and weaknesses, hence why there is such thing as cores.

I may be missing something, cause MVenu doesn't scare me at all and I don't think many people worry about preparing for it, either.
There is more in the world than sweepers. MegaSaur is an amazing offensive tank that counters/checks a large amount of threats. If you build around BD Azu, you really want to pack something that can defeat MegaSaur, or Azu won't be sweeping anytime soon.
 
I can agree with 4MSS, but first off I'd like to say Passive mons (sadly Thundy I is one of em, #26 in usage may be good but he's hard to stick on teams now) are irrelivent and Gren is one pokemon, although very meta influencing. Honestly, even then MVenu isn't really scary to teams anymore, atleast for me. One thing about the 4MSS is that it will have its strengths and weaknesses, hence why there is such thing as cores.

I may be missing something, cause MVenu doesn't scare me at all and I don't think many people worry about preparing for it, either.
The vibe behind Mega Venusaur may have died down, but it still is an amazing tank that can check a lot of top threats, such as Keldeo, Azumarill, pretty much every Electric sans the rare Thundurus-T (which almost always carries HP Flying), Breloom, you name it, MVenu can go head-to-head with almost every threat in OU, sans Talonflame, Pinsir, KyuB, and Psychics.
 

alexwolf

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Tentacruel for C / C+. Specially defensive Tentacruel with Scald / Knock Off / Rapid Spin / Acid Spray is a very cool set. It counters Greninja without Extrasensory and can even get rid of Spikes, completely shutting down both common Greninja sets, and also checks / counters Clefable, Mega Venusaur, LO Gengar, Heatran, Politoed, Kingdra, Omastar, Keldeo, Amoonguss, Chesnaught, and Azumarill, and has tons of utility thanks to Rapid Spin, Scald, and Knock Off. It also has two very decent abilities, the first of which allows it to become a hard counter to Mega Venusaur, which is unable to heal with Giga Drain, gets burned by Scald, and eventually Synthesis is pp stalled, while Rain Dish turns Tentacruel into an amazing check to rain teams. Also, it should be noted that Tentacruel beats two of the best SR setter for balanced and bulky offensive teams, Heatran and Clefable, while keeping your own hazards intact, making it a great partner to any SR weak Pokemon.
 
I actually have a Lanturn replay, from a while ago as you'll be able to tell. Lanturn did it's job well, shutting down the ever so annoying Rotom-W and acting as a pivot in general. It's Heal Bell came up clutch, allowing my Politoed to switch in one extra time making the difference in the match. Scald is a great improvement over Hydro Pump as well, something we shouldnt forget. I did miss the ground immunity for Excadrill, however Excadrill wont want to switch into Lanturn anyways so just make sure to pair Lanturn with a flying or levitating type, which it naturally has great synergy with.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-145566444

I did end up sacking my Lanturn in the end to get Politoed in to lead to the final sweep, but Lanturn certainly pulled its weight and i can definetely say it's worthy of C-ranking, especially with the usage of Magnezone and Mega Manecrtic picking up.
I used to think Lanturn needed to be ranked too, but I think I think I found stiff competition for it's greatest niche, that of a cleric that preserves momentum by running a switching move. Celebi and Mega Ampharos both had that ability, but Celebi doesn't have the near perfect synergy with flying types, and Mega-Ampharos takes up a mega slot and lacks leftover recovery.

But, for the most part, Sylveon absolutely CAN pull that weight with Baton Pass, having only two weaknesses that Skarmory is resistant or immune to, along with far better offensive potential, recovery that's more reliable, and the ability to pass CM boosts and wishes.

Really, the only niche Lanturn has on teams that need that Heal Bell+Switch combo and need something immune to electricity that can tank a special move (OU ground types have generally abysmal Sp. Def).

I have a habit of running Charizard Y and Skarmory together, so I still find some use for it, but I think it's still a bit too niche to get ranked.
 
"I would like to nominate Umbreon for C with the possibility of C+ in the future. I have been using him in all my OU teams for a good number of months now and it has always pulled its weight. I have been using the wish, protect, foul play and toxic set. However I have split the EV's to make him a mixed wall ( 252 hp, 128 def, 128 sdef bold nature) and it works wonders. Umbreon can take down the Tyranitar (normal and Mega)/Hippowdon + Excadrill set easily by poisoning the sand inducer and then using foul play on drill which takes 80% off his health (earthquake 2KO's Umbreon). This EV spread does not lack in tanking sdef either. It can just about survive a Mega-Gardevoir hyper voice at max health, which i have used to toxic her before he dies.

Honestly I see Umbreon as good as Sylveon (hence the thought of C+) and I use both of them on my team as a defensive core that can pass wishes and deal out solid damage each. They both had a good resistance to most of the main meta treats (except Mega-Maw who is now gone). Umbreon is so good at taking down fragile physical and special treats like Tallonflame (check), Landorus T (solid check), Gengar (check) Lati@s (check), Greninja (counter), mamoswine (check), Mega-Manetric, (check, often counter) and so on. It can also beat 1 on 1 Garchomp and Dragonite.

Honestly Umbreon is very viable and underrated in OU (it also does fine in Ubers tanking hits but that's another story). The reason Umbreon is so lowly ranked is cause everyone is using him wrong, make him a mixed wall and he can take on many offensive and defensive OU staples.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-161102204

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-161377823

Go to the end of the match where Umbreon beats Latios and Mega Garchomp at +2 using earthquake. The second replay shows Umbreon wining the match for me. Note that using my EV spread a critical hit earthquake from Exadrill only does 56%. Dropping this guy from the viability rankings as people are suggesting is just plain wrong"




This was a post I made quite a while ago, unfortunately people were distracted by other things at the time and it got ignored. I'm bringing it up again as I have still kept using him in every match and he never fails to do well in the OU metagame. I have also just had a match where Umbreon walled an entire team of OU viable mons and had it not been for some burn hax it would have won 6-0. The replay may have been a ORAS match but it was still almost identical to a XY OU game when Umbreon was being used.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/orasou-178910557

I would like it if Umbreon could be on the viability list before ORAS comes, because it has deserved to be there the whole time and should have never been dropped. Please note the the team I walled consisted of mostly Physical attackers, which proves that my 252 hp, 128 def, 128 sdef bold nature spread is able to wall physical and special sweepers. I still think it deserves C+ but lets do it softly softly and begin with D rank. Any objections? I have 6 months experience with this Pokemon and I think he is unquestionably OU viable. Both as a offensive wish passer (as shown in my last replay) and pure cleric.

Edit. And for what its worth it does really well against some of the new ORAS Megas. Including beating Mega Sceptile, Mega Metagross and giving Mega Salamence a big headache by removing most of its health from foul play while tanking +1 return.
 
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"I would like to nominate Umbreon for C with the possibility of C+ in the future. I have been using him in all my OU teams for a good number of months now and it has always pulled its weight. I have been using the wish, protect, foul play and toxic set. However I have split the EV's to make him a mixed wall ( 252 hp, 128 def, 128 sdef bold nature) and it works wonders. Umbreon can take down the Tyranitar (normal and Mega)/Hippowdon + Excadrill set easily by poisoning the sand inducer and then using foul play on drill which takes 80% off his health (earthquake 2KO's Umbreon). This EV spread does not lack in tanking sdef either. It can just about survive a Mega-Gardevoir hyper voice at max health, which i have used to toxic her before he dies.

Honestly I see Umbreon as good as Sylveon (hence the thought of C+) and I use both of them on my team as a defensive core that can pass wishes and deal out solid damage each. They both had a good resistance to most of the main meta treats (except Mega-Maw who is now gone). Umbreon is so good at taking down fragile physical and special treats like Tallonflame (check), Landorus T (solid check), Gengar (check) Lati@s (check), Greninja (counter), mamoswine (check), Mega-Manetric, (check, often counter) and so on. It can also beat 1 on 1 Garchomp and Dragonite.

Honestly Umbreon is very viable and underrated in OU (it also does fine in Ubers tanking hits but that's another story). The reason Umbreon is so lowly ranked is cause everyone is using him wrong, make him a mixed wall and he can take on many offensive and defensive OU staples.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-161102204

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-161377823

Go to the end of the match where Umbreon beats Latios and Mega Garchomp at +2 using earthquake. The second replay shows Umbreon wining the match for me. Note that using my EV spread a critical hit earthquake from Exadrill only does 56%. Dropping this guy from the viability rankings as people are suggesting is just plain wrong"




This was a post I made quite a while ago, unfortunately people were distracted by other things at the time and it got ignored. I'm bringing it up again as I have still kept using him in every match and he never fails to do well in the OU metagame. I have also just had a match where Umbreon walled an entire team of OU viable mons and had it not been for some burn hax it would have won 6-0. The replay may have been a ORAS match but it was still almost identical to a XY OU game when Umbreon was being used.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/orasou-178910557

I would like it if Umbreon could be on the viability list before ORAS comes, because it has deserved to be there the whole time and should have never been dropped. Please note the the team I walled consisted of mostly Physical attackers, which proves that my 252 hp, 128 def, 128 sdef bold nature spread is able to wall physical and special sweepers. I still think it deserves C+ but lets do it softly softly and begin with D rank. Any objections? I have 6 months experience with this Pokemon and I think he is unquestionably OU viable. Both as a offensive wish passer (as shown in my last replay) and pure cleric.
Got to admit Umbreon is severely underrated, the first time I ever laddered I got to number 3 thanks to Umbreon acting as solid glue to a ton of threats at the time, and supporting the team with wish/protect/heal bell/foul play. I went mainly physical with minor spdef for something I can't remember and it always pulled it's weight. This was very early XY mind you when Genesect was still around, and I never regretted his inclusion. I agree people use it wrong, mainly because they solely focus on typing and as such make it spdef when in reality a bit of physical bulk allows it to fully abuse foul play whilst also taking powerful special hits. Baton pass over protect means it can maintain momentum too. I'm not sure where it belongs but I certainly wouldn't unrank it.
 
I have a hard time believing 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SDef Bold is the best EV spread for mixed wall Umbreon, splitting the EV spread down the middle is rarely the best use of EVs on anything. I have two issues with Umbreon. One, it seems to be easy to take advantage of. I almost always carry something than manhandles Umbreon without even thinking. Bisharp, Terrakion and Cobalion all fall into this category off the top of my head, there's probably more.

Second, bigger point, what does Umbreon take on that other walls/pivots don't take on better? There's a decent number of RU/UU threats you can invest significant defense EVs into and they can hold up against OU threats. They just don't do it better than the current OU walls. Umbreon loses to all 5 Mega wallbreakers fairly easily, it really can't do a whole lot to Mega Venu, Mega Tyranitar, or Mega Gyarados either. It is a very weak check to Mega Scizor, you have to come in the same turn it does to stand a chance. The only Mega it really stands a good chance against is Char-X, and you need to be at full health to take it on. Not everything has to take on every Mega, but they usually can take on at least one. Practically every team carries a Mega, and thus usually a pretty decent matchup to Umbreon. That's another point, it has to be at full health to take basically anything it's supposed to check/counter. WashProtect healing also gives up many free turns in return for healing itself.

That was all in regards to Umbreon for C/C+, not Umbreon for D. But I'm not really sure what it's D-Rank niche is anyway.
 
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I have a hard time believing 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SDef Bold is the best EV spread for mixed wall Umbreon, splitting the EV spread down the middle is rarely the best use of EVs on anything. I have two issues with Umbreon. One, it seems to be easy to take advantage of. I almost always carry something than manhandles Umbreon without even thinking. Bisharp, Terrakion and Cobalion all fall into this category off the top of my head, there's probably more. Second, bigger point, what does Umbreon take on that other walls/pivots don't take on better? There's a decent number of RU/UU threats you can invest significant defense EVs into and they can hold up against OU threats. They just don't do it better than the current OU walls. Umbreon loses to all 5 Mega wallbreaker fairly easily, it really can't do a whole lot to Mega Venu, Mega Tyranitar, or Mega Gyarados either. It is a very weak check to Mega Scizor, you have to come in the same turn it does to stand a chance. The only Mega it really stands a good chance against is Char-X, and you need to be at full health to take it on. That's another point, it has to be at full health to take basically anything it's supposed to check/counter. WashProtect healing also gives up many free turns in return for healing itself.
I'm afraid you are partially wrong in what Umbreon can take on. I chose split defense when I was still a noob as I did not know anything better. It turned out though that it gave me the ability to take on many threats though so I decided to keep it. There might be a better spread, but it is not a poor choice.

Firstly Umbreon can beat Mega Tyranitar and Gyrados as long as it has got toxic. I have done this numerous of times and I don't think I have ever lost to them as long as I was at 70% health to begin with. Bisharp is a bit hit and miss. It tends to win against Umbreon but I usually remove most of its health via +2 foul play. If Bisharp has lost a decent amount (30-40%) of health it loses. I will give you Cobalion (who is not common in OU) and Terrakion, but Venu can't do much to Umbreon either. So I can still pass wishes to Venu checks. It loses to bug bite Mega Scizor, but if it only has U-turn then at neutral boosts it does fine.

252+ Atk Mega Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 128+ Def Umbreon: 210-248 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Which can be healed off via wish + protect. If it only has SD and knock off, roost and bullet punch then Umbreon wins.

Now lets compare other walls and clerics out there and see how Umbreon does. Sylveon has a better typing and can hurt things via hyper voice (but Umbreon can also hurt things), but its def is not great so it does not do as well as Umbreon when tanking mixed attacks. Mandibuzz has similar bulk and can defog and takes no damage from the weather, but its stealth rock weak and can't work as a cleric. Chansey/Blissey has better bulk and is better at being a cleric than Umbreon, however it has no offensive presence at all. Being passive in this OU meta is a bad thing and Umbreon is no where near as passive (if it were it would not be able to sweep a team!). Clefable is also very good and is generally better than Umbreon, but it does not totally outclass it either due to its much better bulk which lets it switch in much more easily. Not being totally outclassed by a A+ Pokemon is not a bad thing.

Umbreon is not top tier OU, but it does well against many teams and has many uses. This includes soaking up status like WOW Rotom and other toxic users and then passing it to the opponent. It is just such a useful asset to my team and has never been a liability to me.
 
I'm afraid you are partially wrong in what Umbreon can take on. I chose split defense when I was still a noob as I did not know anything better. It turned out though that it gave me the ability to take on many threats though so I decided to keep it. There might be a better spread, but it is not a poor choice.

Firstly Umbreon can beat Mega Tyranitar and Gyrados as long as it has got toxic. I have done this numerous of times and I don't think I have ever lost to them as long as I was at 70% health to begin with. Bisharp is a bit hit and miss. It tends to win against Umbreon but I usually remove most of its health via +2 foul play. If Bisharp has lost a decent amount (30-40%) of health it loses. I will give you Cobalion (who is not common in OU) and Terrakion, but Venu can't do much to Umbreon either. So I can still pass wishes to Venu checks. It loses to bug bite Mega Scizor, but if it only has U-turn then at neutral boosts it does fine.

252+ Atk Mega Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 128+ Def Umbreon: 210-248 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Which can be healed off via wish + protect. If it only has SD and knock off, roost and bullet punch then Umbreon wins.

Now lets compare other walls and clerics out there and see how Umbreon does. Sylveon has a better typing and can hurt things via hyper voice (but Umbreon can also hurt things), but its def is not great so it does not do as well as Umbreon when tanking mixed attacks. Mandibuzz has similar bulk and can defog and takes no damage from the weather, but its stealth rock weak and can't work as a cleric. Chansey/Blissey has better bulk and is better at being a cleric than Umbreon, however it has no offensive presence at all. Being passive in this OU meta is a bad thing and Umbreon is no where near as passive (if it were it would not be able to sweep a team!). Clefable is also very good and is generally better than Umbreon, but it does not totally outclass it either due to its much better bulk which lets it switch in much more easily. Not being totally outclassed by a A+ Pokemon is not a bad thing.

Umbreon is not top tier OU, but it does well against many teams and has many uses. This includes soaking up status like WOW Rotom and other toxic users and then passing it to the opponent. It is just such a useful asset to my team and has never been a liability to me.
Many Mega Gyarados carry Taunt or Sub now, so Umbreon can't Toxic stall it to death, and it barely breaks Gyara's Subs to boot. Also, offensive SD Scizor carries Superpower and SD now, so Umbreon has a lot of trouble coming in on it. Bug Bite also takes out a big chunk of damage.

252+ Atk Mega Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 128+ Def Umbreon: 238-282 (60.4 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 128+ Def Umbreon: 270-318 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Mega Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 128+ Def Umbreon: 476-562 (120.8 - 142.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 128+ Def Umbreon: 536-632 (136 - 160.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 142-168 (50.5 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 283-334 (100.7 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Umbreon needs +2 Foul Play to OHKO, at which point Scizor decimates it. Otherwise, Scizor 2HKOs and Umbreon 2HKOs back (and Scizor is faster). The days of Bullet Punch+Knock Off Scizor are long gone. There's not really a scenario where Umbreon can come in on Mega Scizor and beat it. Also, passive mons can 6-0 teams on the ladder. That's not a sign of being not passive. Foul Play is very inconsistent and isn't any less passive than Chansey Seismic Toss. Toxic Stalling through WishTect also gives up free turns and is very passive as well.
 
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Many Mega Gyarados carry Taunt or Sub now, so Umbreon can't Toxic stall it to death, and it barely breaks Gyara's Subs to boot. Also, offensive SD Scizor carries Superpower and SD now, so Umbreon has a lot of trouble coming in on it. Bug Bite also takes out a big chunk of damage.

252+ Atk Mega Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 128+ Def Umbreon: 238-282 (60.4 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 128+ Def Umbreon: 270-318 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Mega Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 128+ Def Umbreon: 476-562 (120.8 - 142.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 128+ Def Umbreon: 536-632 (136 - 160.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 142-168 (50.5 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 283-334 (100.7 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Umbreon needs +2 Foul Play to OHKO, at which point Scizor decimates it. Otherwise, Scizor 2HKOs and Umbreon 2HKOs back (and Scizor is faster). The days of Bullet Punch+Knock Off Scizor are long gone. There's not really a scenario where Umbreon can come in on Mega Scizor and beat it. Also, passive mons can 6-0 teams on the ladder. That's not a sign of being not passive. Foul Play is very inconsistent and isn't any less passive than Chansey Seismic Toss. Toxic Stalling through WishTect also gives up free turns and is very passive as well.
There is a lot of prediction when it comes to Scizor. That first calc is not great for scizor as if neutral Superpower only does 65 % to Umbreon and Umbreon wishes then it can't win. And if Scizor chooses SD and Umbreon uses foul play then its over. Yes Taunt is a big problem for Umbreon if Garados uses it, but Sub is not the best move as Umbreon will be able to start to break though it once it gets to +2.

Taking a step back the calcs show that Umbreon has a chance to beat some of the main physical and special sweepers in the tier. It won't always win but depending on your move-set and 50-50s it can beat or severely damage many Mega Pokemon. That's quite impressive for something that is not even on the viability list. Oh and it also hard counters all the common Greninja sets (including Gunk shot when its officially released) who is the bane of so many teams right now. Being able to reliability beat 2 (possibly 3 with Zard X) of the S rank Pokemon is incredibly useful as they will be found on many teams. It has to get ranked.
 

zbr

rendered asunder
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
There is a lot of prediction when it comes to Scizor. That first calc is not great for scizor as if neutral Superpower only does 65 % to Umbreon and Umbreon wishes then it can't win. And if Scizor chooses SD and Umbreon uses foul play then its over. Yes Taunt is a big problem for Umbreon if Garados uses it, but Sub is not the best move as Umbreon will be able to start to break though it once it gets to +2.

Taking a step back the calcs show that Umbreon has a chance to beat some of the main physical and special sweepers in the tier. It won't always win but depending on your move-set and 50-50s it can beat or severely damage many Mega Pokemon. That's quite impressive for something that is not even on the viability list. Oh and it also hard counters all the common Greninja sets (including Gunk shot when its officially released) who is the bane of so many teams right now. Being able to reliability beat 2 (possibly 3 with Zard X) of the S rank Pokemon is incredibly useful as they will be found on many teams. It has to get ranked.
Calcs are not comparable to in battle scenarios if you ask me. Let's look at the possible matchups where Umbreon possibly thrives.

Vs Mgyara/Gyara
- you will have to hope he doesn't carry sub/taunt and if he does have either, he can easily set up. Foul play may break the sub, but it won't solve the problem. Hence it is a weak check, if not a complete set up fodder

Vs MScizor
- the offensive variant runs Bug Bite while the defensive variant (rare as of now but not uncommon) uses U turn to pivot. He can easily pivot out. Umbreon = lost niche.

Having a chance to beat premier/common offensive mons aren't really justifiable enough IMO to put it in C. It is really easy to play around, albeit annoying. I'm sorry for replying so little to your wall of text but Umbreon is easily run over by a phlethora of OU threats. What you aim to check, you have to predict or outplay your opponent to do so. I don't see it viable even in D ranking cause wish passing and clericing can be done by Slyveon who has better typing. Other mons use Foul Play better than Umbreon. IMO, Umbreon is too easily broken down in our current meta. I don't even see why it is in D rank to be honest. It is completely outclassed by it's sister Slyveon in OU.
 
There is a lot of prediction when it comes to Scizor. That first calc is not great for scizor as if neutral Superpower only does 65 % to Umbreon and Umbreon wishes then it can't win. And if Scizor chooses SD and Umbreon uses foul play then its over.
You're assuming they are going to be facing each other 1v1. Umbreon will be coming in on Scizor in almost every situation, even if they are 1v1 Scizor just needs two Bug Bites to win. Umbreon cannot switch-in on three of Sczior's moves at all, and if it switches in on BP it will be KOed by the follow up Bug Bite or Superpower. Also, if Scizor uses Superpower and falls to -1 attack, it also weakens Umbreon's Foul Play:

-1 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 128+ Def Umbreon: 180-212 (45.6 - 53.8%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 94-112 (33.4 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Not to mention that using Wish and Protect gives Scizor free turn to SD up to +1, at which point Umbreon loses. There's literally no scenario where Umbreon wins unless Scizor switches in on Umbreon's Foul Play. That's unlikely because 3 of Umbreon's moves give Scizor free entry opportunities, and for Umbreon to do it's job as a defensive threat it needs to come in on Scizor to beat it. Even if Scizor switches in on Umbreon Foul Play, it can use Superpower to weaken Umbreon (and also weaken Umbreon's Foul Play to the point where Scizor survives!) and kill it with Bug Bite after.

It's actually interesting that you brought up Superpower making it easier for Umbreon to wall Scizor. It actually makes it harder because of the nature of Foul Play.
 
I don't really understand how Sylveon outclasses Umbreon, bearing in mind I have used both of them for almost an equal amount of time. Fairy is better than dark defensively, there is no question about that. Hyper Voice is a reliable attack, but it hits totally different things to Foul play. Umbreon however has so much better physical bulk. I never use Sylveon to tank physical mons it does not resit cause it gets overwhelmed, Umbreon does not. Also Synchronize is a very sweet ability to have especially against stall who love to toxic and burn things.

As for it not being a reliable check to the Premier Megas, the fact that it can go toe to toe with so many things and at the very least severely weaken them is a good thing in my eyes. Other people seem to think differently and that is has to consistently beat the best Megas to be viable. I don't see any of the other clerics and wish passers (beside Clefable) being able to do that at all, at least Umbreon has a chance on many common threats. I personally think toxic over heal bell is the best thing for Umbreon. I spam toxic on things like Keldeo and Azumarill (who it out-speeds) as they switch in so its never a free switch for the opponent. If you don't give it any rank then fine, but I will keep using it. Not just cause its my favorite Pokemon, but because it always pulls its weight and supports my team while being able to threaten many high tier Pokemon. Its not outclassed by any Pokemon (definitely not Sylveon) in OU so I will continue to see it being OU viable.

Edit. It looks like I'm not going to win this battle so i will stop here and leave it for people like Alexwolf to decide. The reason I wanted to bring up the conversation was that I have had a string of matches against very different opponents where Umbreon has been the key member for giving me the win. I was annoyed that such a useful mon was deemed un-viable when again and again over 6 months of use it greatly helps my team without being outclassed by any other OU mon. Umbreon + Sylveon provide a fantastic defensive core which can pass wishes to my team and allow them to sweep. Its a core that has given me a lot of success and come ORAS it will continue to do so.
 
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zbr

rendered asunder
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I don't really understand how Sylveon outclasses Umbreon, bearing in mind I have used both of them for almost an equal amount of time. Fairy is better than dark defensively, there is no question about that. Hyper Voice is a reliable attack, but it hits totally different things to Foul play. Umbreon however has so much better physical bulk. I never use Sylveon to tank physical mons it does not resit cause it gets overwhelmed, Umbreon does not. Also Synchronize is a very sweet ability to have especially against stall who love to toxic and burn things.

As for it not being a reliable check to the Premier Megas, the fact that it can go toe to toe with so many things and at the very least severely weaken them is a good thing in my eyes. Other people seem to think differently and that is has to consistently beat the best Megas to be viable. I don't see any of the other clerics and wish passers (beside Clefable) being able to do that at all, at least Umbreon has a chance on many common threats. I personally think toxic over heal bell is the best thing for Umbreon. I spam toxic on things like Keldeo and Azumarill (who it out-speeds) as they switch in so its never a free switch for the opponent. If you don't give it any rank then fine, but I will keep using it. Not just cause its my favorite Pokemon, but because it always pulls its weight and supports my team while being able to threaten many high tier Pokemon. Its not outclassed by any Pokemon (definitely not Sylveon) in OU so I will continue to see it being OU viable.
The thing is not that it isn't a reliable check against premier offensive mons. It's just that it's typing is a really flawed one defensively in our current meta and it is so passive to the extent that it becomes set up fodder. The point here isn't that we are denying you of your use to Umbreon. We are just trying to arrange OU viable mons that newcomers to the meta can get a good gauge from. Umbreon is passive and doesn't apply pressure to your opponent reliably. The way the meta is now, even if you are a wall, you need to have some semblance of offensive presence other than relying on your opponent to provide you with presence (aka foul play). Umbreon loses you precious momentum that your opponent can and most likely WILL use against you. Which is why I don't think it deserves a ranking.
 
"I would like to nominate Umbreon for C with the possibility of C+ in the future. I have been using him in all my OU teams for a good number of months now and it has always pulled its weight. I have been using the wish, protect, foul play and toxic set. However I have split the EV's to make him a mixed wall ( 252 hp, 128 def, 128 sdef bold nature) and it works wonders. Umbreon can take down the Tyranitar (normal and Mega)/Hippowdon + Excadrill set easily by poisoning the sand inducer and then using foul play on drill which takes 80% off his health (earthquake 2KO's Umbreon). This EV spread does not lack in tanking sdef either. It can just about survive a Mega-Gardevoir hyper voice at max health, which i have used to toxic her before he dies.

Honestly I see Umbreon as good as Sylveon (hence the thought of C+) and I use both of them on my team as a defensive core that can pass wishes and deal out solid damage each. They both had a good resistance to most of the main meta treats (except Mega-Maw who is now gone). Umbreon is so good at taking down fragile physical and special treats like Tallonflame (check), Landorus T (solid check), Gengar (check) Lati@s (check), Greninja (counter), mamoswine (check), Mega-Manetric, (check, often counter) and so on. It can also beat 1 on 1 Garchomp and Dragonite.

Honestly Umbreon is very viable and underrated in OU (it also does fine in Ubers tanking hits but that's another story). The reason Umbreon is so lowly ranked is cause everyone is using him wrong, make him a mixed wall and he can take on many offensive and defensive OU staples.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-161102204

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-161377823

Go to the end of the match where Umbreon beats Latios and Mega Garchomp at +2 using earthquake. The second replay shows Umbreon wining the match for me. Note that using my EV spread a critical hit earthquake from Exadrill only does 56%. Dropping this guy from the viability rankings as people are suggesting is just plain wrong"




This was a post I made quite a while ago, unfortunately people were distracted by other things at the time and it got ignored. I'm bringing it up again as I have still kept using him in every match and he never fails to do well in the OU metagame. I have also just had a match where Umbreon walled an entire team of OU viable mons and had it not been for some burn hax it would have won 6-0. The replay may have been a ORAS match but it was still almost identical to a XY OU game when Umbreon was being used.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/orasou-178910557

I would like it if Umbreon could be on the viability list before ORAS comes, because it has deserved to be there the whole time and should have never been dropped. Please note the the team I walled consisted of mostly Physical attackers, which proves that my 252 hp, 128 def, 128 sdef bold nature spread is able to wall physical and special sweepers. I still think it deserves C+ but lets do it softly softly and begin with D rank. Any objections? I have 6 months experience with this Pokemon and I think he is unquestionably OU viable. Both as a offensive wish passer (as shown in my last replay) and pure cleric.

Edit. And for what its worth it does really well against some of the new ORAS Megas. Including beating Mega Sceptile, Mega Metagross and giving Mega Salamence a big headache by removing most of its health from foul play while tanking +1 return.
yes i am sure there is no bias at all whatsoever coming from UmbreonEternal

tbh umbreon isn't as bad as people say. the physically defensive set is honestly not horrendous, although it does feel like the lovechild of cleric sylveon and mandibuzz. it's not specialized enough to really succeed in the higher ranks of ou but i do think it deserves a rank at least. although it won't break my heart if it stays unranked either

also people have considered dropping blissey, but if anything it should go up. it's different than chansey in the fact that it's not nearly as passive, as, although small, it has actually offensive presence and doesn't lose to lando-I's knock off + fb set or taunt + 3 attacks gengar like chansey does as you can run ice beam to actually touch them (something the nigs up in ubers realized a while ago). i've actually started using blissey on most of my stall teams now as it doesn't just sit there and die slowly like the tendency is for most stall teams nowadays. i'd place it in C-, truly. also alexwolf i've found your updated sableye + tenta + jirachi core works much better with blissey than with chansey as it's still really weak to lando-i and ice beam blissey is literally jesus on the team i use it on. srsly, blissey's pretty decent. fuck chansey.
 
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Yeah Umbreon checks Greninja and a pool of other special attackers pretty nicely. It's not really set up bait either because of Foul Play. Can pass Wishes as well as it's tendency to force switches so it can Toxic Pokemon on the switch. Deserves D rank at the very least.
 
Use umbreon with baton pass. I've posted on this so many times. I personally think Umbreon is a mid tier or top tier wall because of baton pass which lets it maintain offensive presence. It eases prediction like hell.

Forgo protect, or don't. The standard set is also good.
 
Use umbreon with baton pass. I've posted on this so many times. I personally think Umbreon is a mid tier or top tier wall because of baton pass which lets it maintain offensive presence. It eases prediction like hell.

Forgo protect, or don't. The standard set is also good.
Yep! When I think of top tier walls in OU like Skarmory, Chansey, Slowbro and Mega Venusaur, Umbreon is never far from my tongue. With that beautiful typing for countering.... All those dark and psychics types lacking another stab and coverage... Like Medicham, right? Yeah! That and bisharp! Umbreon is a wonderful stop to those threats, which is why he's a top tier wall. I love his access to relevant recovery that doesn't take 2 turns to work and ISN'T weather dependent, his expansive support movepool like confuse ray and his good attack to stop set up sweepers.

And we can talk about all those advantages he has over chansey. Do you know how annoyed Chansey is with Psychic moves? Yeah, take THAT, chansey. Umbreon beats psychics better, at the cost of... getting hit by the non-existent bug attacks in OU. No one even USES landorus-t anyways. And ignore that fairy weakness... you know, one of the best offensive attacks in the game... I mean, chansey wasn't taking azumarill anyways... Yeah, chansey obviously can't take fairy attacks either.

Chansey has always wanted a dark resist because with it, she'd be so much more willing to take knock off attacks. Umbreon just laughs at knock off users like Conkeldurr, Bisharp and Landorus-i. Here, eat foul play!

And for the calcs to prove how much more worth umbreon is than that overrated fat bitch chansey, here's some calcs proving his prowless!

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 165-196 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 226-266 (35.2 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Ignore the fact that chansey only takes 25% from draco meteor! Psyshock is deadly with that huge 3hko.

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 101-121 (15.7 - 18.8%) -- possible 6HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 121-142 (30.7 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Soaking. It. Up. Umbreon might as well be taking a bath... under a shower with 50psi.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 244-289 (61.9 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 208-247 (32.3 - 38.4%) -- 97.9% chance to 3HKO

Have fun eating that 50% from foul play, landorus! I bet you'll never be the same after that one!

You people have no ambition whatsoever. For a top tier wall like Umbreon, only S rank can suit him.

But seriously. Why the hell do you use umbreon when you have chansey? Are you THAT scared of Celebi or something? News flash, can't even beat mew with Umbreon. Jirachi is still going to scare the shit out of you with all those flinches. Relevant psychic megas trample you (aka Medicham/Gardevoir). You're not even a decent special wall when chansey is around and has less weaknesses. And offense pressure? Yeah, foul play is getting ALL the pressure, especially since Umbreon, like Sylveon and every other eevee cleric, has to run Wish+Protect+HealBell and only has one room for stab. Otherwise, enjoy dying while you wait for wishes or only recovering on opponents that can 4hko you (since ones that can 3hko you will eventually win).

Edit: Let's quickly talk about PD umbreon "Eating up TTar/Hippo+Exca cores". First, 128 Defense. You teeter on the edge of getting 2hkod... In fact, with rocks and sandstorm (since that's the name of the sand offense game), you're dead!

252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 128+ Def Umbreon: 179-212 (45.4 - 53.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery

Lol nice counter. Sure, foul play is a 2hko, but you DON'T get that hit. You're dead coming in to stop this. Stopping hippowdon? Big deal. I know hyper offense mons that 'counter' hippowdon. It isn't terrifically difficult. However, umbreon can't even prevent rocks from coming up unless you really think 65 speed taunt is a good idea. Any decently strong physical attacker that isn't 100% resisted by umbreon (which, last I checked, none were...) will demolish umbreon. Sure, you survive support ttar. It's SUPPORT. Exca demolishes you. Sand wears you down. What about giving Conkeldurr and bisharp free switches all day? How about not being able to touch opposing stall and bulky offenses because of your mono-dimensional stab?

Sylveon is better than umbreon because there is legitimate power in her one stab. That Hyper Voice with pixilate isn't something you causally waltz into. not only that, Sylveon has a better typing with more relevant resists. Fairy is a better attack type, coming off a better attack stat and, to be perfectly honest, a better mix of stats for a wall, while not leaving it useless in other archtypes. Umbreon is getting way too much hype.
 
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This is my first post in the viability thread so apologize in advance if I make any mistake's or say something stupid. (This will be my only post on umbreon as i feel there are better things to discuss)
On Umbreon as someone who use's him regularly and gloats about it in the OU chat room (Ask albacore or any driver of a night time) I do think he is worthy of a nomination but not C+. At best I reckon D.. The metagame being hyper physical with fighting and fairy move's everywhere means that no matter how good he is at special walling (I use special with 252HP, 224spdef and 32 def) he needs to be partnered with a fairy or steel type and that alone prevents him rising to C. He also only has 1 Set making him predictable which is Foul play, Wish, Heal Bell and your choice of protect/Toxic with protect being the better choice usually.

Those Glaring weakness aside Umbreon is fantastic at what he does and that's Stoping the a large spectrum of special attacks across the metagame short of Gardevoirs Hyper voice, Lando's Focus blast and Spec's keldeos sacred sword which few things want to swtich into anyway. It can however Switch into Zard Ys fireblast at +2 and win if he is at full health while carrying protect which few other walls can do (Note he lose's if even 1 hazard is up so its not reliable). Resist's Stored power meaning it can actually beat BP Espeon if they dont carry gleam. Heck it trolls mega sableye at +6 and can laugh at pretty much anything else thats unboosted. But the main reason it should be ranked if at all is come ORAS is one of the few pokemon that can swtich into greninja and the lati twins and win no matter what. The only other pokemon that can swtich into ORAS gren is chansey and thats vulnerable to knock off from teammates which umbreon resists.

Removed Zard Y calcs because I used wrong Zard lol

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Umbreon: 121-144 (30.7 - 36.5%) -- 63.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 153-183 (38.8 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Nothing and I mean nothing else can swtich into it without evolite and hazards up and avoid a 2hko against all its set's and that alone is enough of a Niche to warrant a ranking in my opinion. If not now Come the ORAS thread. In addition to special walling it has syncronise which makes it 1 of the few mons that can punish scald spammers like slowbro and with Foul play can check physical threat's to that attempt to switch in on it or are stupid enough to set in front of it. All the while doing its main job of passing wish's and Heal belling. On paper it may seem passive but it's alot better then people give it credit for and can easily take out 2 or 3 threats on its own tho your oppenet would be stupid to let umbreon do that. Dark as a whole I feel is underrated as a defensive type giving it Psychic immunity, resistance to stored power and the Omni present Knock off and The only type aside from normal with a ghost resist letting it beat Genger not to mention access to stabed foul play.

He's a great Cleric, a really solid Wall and beats the Latis and Gren while clericing which is his main niche but the heavily physicall metagame is not kind to him, he's got only 1 set and the fact it needs to be paired with another Fairy or Steel type Means he can hinder team building where as something like Sylveon or Clefable is easier to slap in. If you already have those types in your team and have Trouble with the aforementioned pokemon or your me go ahead and use him. He definitely carries his weight but otherwise there are easier choice's like Chansey or Sylveon who can wall special threats nearly as well but are more versatile and less team dependent. D rank For umbreon if ranked at all.

Anyway I again apoligize if I said something silly in the post But I just wanted to have my 2 cents on Umbreon while the topic was up.
 
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Only issue is you used the wrong zard... Charizard standard isn't worth anything for calcs. Try these on for size:

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon in Sun: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 182-216 (46.1 - 54.8%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yeah, doesn't look as good when you add all that damage, even with spdef maxed.
 

boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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Only issue is you used the wrong zard... Charizard standard isn't worth anything for calcs. Try these on for size:

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon in Sun: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 182-216 (46.1 - 54.8%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yeah, doesn't look as good when you add all that damage, even with spdef maxed.
Slight nitpick, Zard Y should and commonly runs modest, so bop:

252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon in Sun: 207-244 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 202-238 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 
Im gonna post some quick thoughts about Umbreon,

While I do agree with you Ajwf Umbreon is overhyped, its one of those bulky mons alot of people(atleast I) had trouble with when you faced it before you knew about stall-/wallbreakers and by some wierd reason it was always more troublesome than other walls, but I do think that it deserves a ranking. If you compare Umbreon with other similar mons in OU it seems worse, and is most of the times, but it can actually beat some common stallbreakers in OU other walls have trouble with. The 3 I noticed directly is Mew, Talonflame and Gengar, though Gengar and Talonflame is only guaranteed to be beaten if they are running a stallbreaker set. Mew can be really annoying to stall, and a 2HKO with Foul Play while you can Heal Bell away the burn and recover the Knock Off damage with Wish/ Moonlight is really nice. Talonflame beats Umbreon 1v1 if it isnt Stallbreaker, but Umbreon can rellieble beat it if it is the said set. Gengar is beaten unless it has Focus Blast and Max SpA or Life Orb, and to be able to beat Gengar when you are using bulky mons like Umbreon is nice. Gengar complety counters Chansey, and Sylveons Hyper Voice dosent fo much to it. This is a niche Umbreon has that makes it stand out, and not compleatly outclassed in OU. But just as a wall I do agree with you, it's not worth running.

Basically:
Umbreons bulk and typing is outclassed, but that it can beat some big threats to bulkier/ stall teams, and still be a Cleric and Wishpasser is a unique niche, and it soes therefor deserve a ranking.
 
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