FullLifeGames
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Well I would guess the same way as "he's hard to stick on teams now" and "MVenu isn't really scary to teams anymore".Uh how in the world is Thundurus-I passive in anyway?
Well I would guess the same way as "he's hard to stick on teams now" and "MVenu isn't really scary to teams anymore".Uh how in the world is Thundurus-I passive in anyway?
There is more in the world than sweepers. MegaSaur is an amazing offensive tank that counters/checks a large amount of threats. If you build around BD Azu, you really want to pack something that can defeat MegaSaur, or Azu won't be sweeping anytime soon.I can agree with 4MSS, but first off I'd like to say Passive mons (sadly Thundy I is one of em, #26 in usage may be good but he's hard to stick on teams now) are irrelivent and Gren is one pokemon, although very meta influencing. Honestly, even then MVenu isn't really scary to teams anymore, atleast for me. One thing about the 4MSS is that it will have its strengths and weaknesses, hence why there is such thing as cores.
I may be missing something, cause MVenu doesn't scare me at all and I don't think many people worry about preparing for it, either.
The vibe behind Mega Venusaur may have died down, but it still is an amazing tank that can check a lot of top threats, such as Keldeo, Azumarill, pretty much every Electric sans the rare Thundurus-T (which almost always carries HP Flying), Breloom, you name it, MVenu can go head-to-head with almost every threat in OU, sans Talonflame, Pinsir, KyuB, and Psychics.I can agree with 4MSS, but first off I'd like to say Passive mons (sadly Thundy I is one of em, #26 in usage may be good but he's hard to stick on teams now) are irrelivent and Gren is one pokemon, although very meta influencing. Honestly, even then MVenu isn't really scary to teams anymore, atleast for me. One thing about the 4MSS is that it will have its strengths and weaknesses, hence why there is such thing as cores.
I may be missing something, cause MVenu doesn't scare me at all and I don't think many people worry about preparing for it, either.
I used to think Lanturn needed to be ranked too, but I think I think I found stiff competition for it's greatest niche, that of a cleric that preserves momentum by running a switching move. Celebi and Mega Ampharos both had that ability, but Celebi doesn't have the near perfect synergy with flying types, and Mega-Ampharos takes up a mega slot and lacks leftover recovery.I actually have a Lanturn replay, from a while ago as you'll be able to tell. Lanturn did it's job well, shutting down the ever so annoying Rotom-W and acting as a pivot in general. It's Heal Bell came up clutch, allowing my Politoed to switch in one extra time making the difference in the match. Scald is a great improvement over Hydro Pump as well, something we shouldnt forget. I did miss the ground immunity for Excadrill, however Excadrill wont want to switch into Lanturn anyways so just make sure to pair Lanturn with a flying or levitating type, which it naturally has great synergy with.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-145566444
I did end up sacking my Lanturn in the end to get Politoed in to lead to the final sweep, but Lanturn certainly pulled its weight and i can definetely say it's worthy of C-ranking, especially with the usage of Magnezone and Mega Manecrtic picking up.
Got to admit Umbreon is severely underrated, the first time I ever laddered I got to number 3 thanks to Umbreon acting as solid glue to a ton of threats at the time, and supporting the team with wish/protect/heal bell/foul play. I went mainly physical with minor spdef for something I can't remember and it always pulled it's weight. This was very early XY mind you when Genesect was still around, and I never regretted his inclusion. I agree people use it wrong, mainly because they solely focus on typing and as such make it spdef when in reality a bit of physical bulk allows it to fully abuse foul play whilst also taking powerful special hits. Baton pass over protect means it can maintain momentum too. I'm not sure where it belongs but I certainly wouldn't unrank it."I would like to nominate Umbreon for C with the possibility of C+ in the future. I have been using him in all my OU teams for a good number of months now and it has always pulled its weight. I have been using the wish, protect, foul play and toxic set. However I have split the EV's to make him a mixed wall ( 252 hp, 128 def, 128 sdef bold nature) and it works wonders. Umbreon can take down the Tyranitar (normal and Mega)/Hippowdon + Excadrill set easily by poisoning the sand inducer and then using foul play on drill which takes 80% off his health (earthquake 2KO's Umbreon). This EV spread does not lack in tanking sdef either. It can just about survive a Mega-Gardevoir hyper voice at max health, which i have used to toxic her before he dies.
Honestly I see Umbreon as good as Sylveon (hence the thought of C+) and I use both of them on my team as a defensive core that can pass wishes and deal out solid damage each. They both had a good resistance to most of the main meta treats (except Mega-Maw who is now gone). Umbreon is so good at taking down fragile physical and special treats like Tallonflame (check), Landorus T (solid check), Gengar (check) Lati@s (check), Greninja (counter), mamoswine (check), Mega-Manetric, (check, often counter) and so on. It can also beat 1 on 1 Garchomp and Dragonite.
Honestly Umbreon is very viable and underrated in OU (it also does fine in Ubers tanking hits but that's another story). The reason Umbreon is so lowly ranked is cause everyone is using him wrong, make him a mixed wall and he can take on many offensive and defensive OU staples.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-161102204
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-161377823
Go to the end of the match where Umbreon beats Latios and Mega Garchomp at +2 using earthquake. The second replay shows Umbreon wining the match for me. Note that using my EV spread a critical hit earthquake from Exadrill only does 56%. Dropping this guy from the viability rankings as people are suggesting is just plain wrong"
This was a post I made quite a while ago, unfortunately people were distracted by other things at the time and it got ignored. I'm bringing it up again as I have still kept using him in every match and he never fails to do well in the OU metagame. I have also just had a match where Umbreon walled an entire team of OU viable mons and had it not been for some burn hax it would have won 6-0. The replay may have been a ORAS match but it was still almost identical to a XY OU game when Umbreon was being used.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/orasou-178910557
I would like it if Umbreon could be on the viability list before ORAS comes, because it has deserved to be there the whole time and should have never been dropped. Please note the the team I walled consisted of mostly Physical attackers, which proves that my 252 hp, 128 def, 128 sdef bold nature spread is able to wall physical and special sweepers. I still think it deserves C+ but lets do it softly softly and begin with D rank. Any objections? I have 6 months experience with this Pokemon and I think he is unquestionably OU viable. Both as a offensive wish passer (as shown in my last replay) and pure cleric.
I'm afraid you are partially wrong in what Umbreon can take on. I chose split defense when I was still a noob as I did not know anything better. It turned out though that it gave me the ability to take on many threats though so I decided to keep it. There might be a better spread, but it is not a poor choice.I have a hard time believing 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SDef Bold is the best EV spread for mixed wall Umbreon, splitting the EV spread down the middle is rarely the best use of EVs on anything. I have two issues with Umbreon. One, it seems to be easy to take advantage of. I almost always carry something than manhandles Umbreon without even thinking. Bisharp, Terrakion and Cobalion all fall into this category off the top of my head, there's probably more. Second, bigger point, what does Umbreon take on that other walls/pivots don't take on better? There's a decent number of RU/UU threats you can invest significant defense EVs into and they can hold up against OU threats. They just don't do it better than the current OU walls. Umbreon loses to all 5 Mega wallbreaker fairly easily, it really can't do a whole lot to Mega Venu, Mega Tyranitar, or Mega Gyarados either. It is a very weak check to Mega Scizor, you have to come in the same turn it does to stand a chance. The only Mega it really stands a good chance against is Char-X, and you need to be at full health to take it on. That's another point, it has to be at full health to take basically anything it's supposed to check/counter. WashProtect healing also gives up many free turns in return for healing itself.
Many Mega Gyarados carry Taunt or Sub now, so Umbreon can't Toxic stall it to death, and it barely breaks Gyara's Subs to boot. Also, offensive SD Scizor carries Superpower and SD now, so Umbreon has a lot of trouble coming in on it. Bug Bite also takes out a big chunk of damage.I'm afraid you are partially wrong in what Umbreon can take on. I chose split defense when I was still a noob as I did not know anything better. It turned out though that it gave me the ability to take on many threats though so I decided to keep it. There might be a better spread, but it is not a poor choice.
Firstly Umbreon can beat Mega Tyranitar and Gyrados as long as it has got toxic. I have done this numerous of times and I don't think I have ever lost to them as long as I was at 70% health to begin with. Bisharp is a bit hit and miss. It tends to win against Umbreon but I usually remove most of its health via +2 foul play. If Bisharp has lost a decent amount (30-40%) of health it loses. I will give you Cobalion (who is not common in OU) and Terrakion, but Venu can't do much to Umbreon either. So I can still pass wishes to Venu checks. It loses to bug bite Mega Scizor, but if it only has U-turn then at neutral boosts it does fine.
252+ Atk Mega Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 128+ Def Umbreon: 210-248 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Which can be healed off via wish + protect. If it only has SD and knock off, roost and bullet punch then Umbreon wins.
Now lets compare other walls and clerics out there and see how Umbreon does. Sylveon has a better typing and can hurt things via hyper voice (but Umbreon can also hurt things), but its def is not great so it does not do as well as Umbreon when tanking mixed attacks. Mandibuzz has similar bulk and can defog and takes no damage from the weather, but its stealth rock weak and can't work as a cleric. Chansey/Blissey has better bulk and is better at being a cleric than Umbreon, however it has no offensive presence at all. Being passive in this OU meta is a bad thing and Umbreon is no where near as passive (if it were it would not be able to sweep a team!). Clefable is also very good and is generally better than Umbreon, but it does not totally outclass it either due to its much better bulk which lets it switch in much more easily. Not being totally outclassed by a A+ Pokemon is not a bad thing.
Umbreon is not top tier OU, but it does well against many teams and has many uses. This includes soaking up status like WOW Rotom and other toxic users and then passing it to the opponent. It is just such a useful asset to my team and has never been a liability to me.
There is a lot of prediction when it comes to Scizor. That first calc is not great for scizor as if neutral Superpower only does 65 % to Umbreon and Umbreon wishes then it can't win. And if Scizor chooses SD and Umbreon uses foul play then its over. Yes Taunt is a big problem for Umbreon if Garados uses it, but Sub is not the best move as Umbreon will be able to start to break though it once it gets to +2.Many Mega Gyarados carry Taunt or Sub now, so Umbreon can't Toxic stall it to death, and it barely breaks Gyara's Subs to boot. Also, offensive SD Scizor carries Superpower and SD now, so Umbreon has a lot of trouble coming in on it. Bug Bite also takes out a big chunk of damage.
252+ Atk Mega Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 128+ Def Umbreon: 238-282 (60.4 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 128+ Def Umbreon: 270-318 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Mega Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 128+ Def Umbreon: 476-562 (120.8 - 142.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 128+ Def Umbreon: 536-632 (136 - 160.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 142-168 (50.5 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 283-334 (100.7 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Umbreon needs +2 Foul Play to OHKO, at which point Scizor decimates it. Otherwise, Scizor 2HKOs and Umbreon 2HKOs back (and Scizor is faster). The days of Bullet Punch+Knock Off Scizor are long gone. There's not really a scenario where Umbreon can come in on Mega Scizor and beat it. Also, passive mons can 6-0 teams on the ladder. That's not a sign of being not passive. Foul Play is very inconsistent and isn't any less passive than Chansey Seismic Toss. Toxic Stalling through WishTect also gives up free turns and is very passive as well.
Calcs are not comparable to in battle scenarios if you ask me. Let's look at the possible matchups where Umbreon possibly thrives.There is a lot of prediction when it comes to Scizor. That first calc is not great for scizor as if neutral Superpower only does 65 % to Umbreon and Umbreon wishes then it can't win. And if Scizor chooses SD and Umbreon uses foul play then its over. Yes Taunt is a big problem for Umbreon if Garados uses it, but Sub is not the best move as Umbreon will be able to start to break though it once it gets to +2.
Taking a step back the calcs show that Umbreon has a chance to beat some of the main physical and special sweepers in the tier. It won't always win but depending on your move-set and 50-50s it can beat or severely damage many Mega Pokemon. That's quite impressive for something that is not even on the viability list. Oh and it also hard counters all the common Greninja sets (including Gunk shot when its officially released) who is the bane of so many teams right now. Being able to reliability beat 2 (possibly 3 with Zard X) of the S rank Pokemon is incredibly useful as they will be found on many teams. It has to get ranked.
You're assuming they are going to be facing each other 1v1. Umbreon will be coming in on Scizor in almost every situation, even if they are 1v1 Scizor just needs two Bug Bites to win. Umbreon cannot switch-in on three of Sczior's moves at all, and if it switches in on BP it will be KOed by the follow up Bug Bite or Superpower. Also, if Scizor uses Superpower and falls to -1 attack, it also weakens Umbreon's Foul Play:There is a lot of prediction when it comes to Scizor. That first calc is not great for scizor as if neutral Superpower only does 65 % to Umbreon and Umbreon wishes then it can't win. And if Scizor chooses SD and Umbreon uses foul play then its over.
The thing is not that it isn't a reliable check against premier offensive mons. It's just that it's typing is a really flawed one defensively in our current meta and it is so passive to the extent that it becomes set up fodder. The point here isn't that we are denying you of your use to Umbreon. We are just trying to arrange OU viable mons that newcomers to the meta can get a good gauge from. Umbreon is passive and doesn't apply pressure to your opponent reliably. The way the meta is now, even if you are a wall, you need to have some semblance of offensive presence other than relying on your opponent to provide you with presence (aka foul play). Umbreon loses you precious momentum that your opponent can and most likely WILL use against you. Which is why I don't think it deserves a ranking.I don't really understand how Sylveon outclasses Umbreon, bearing in mind I have used both of them for almost an equal amount of time. Fairy is better than dark defensively, there is no question about that. Hyper Voice is a reliable attack, but it hits totally different things to Foul play. Umbreon however has so much better physical bulk. I never use Sylveon to tank physical mons it does not resit cause it gets overwhelmed, Umbreon does not. Also Synchronize is a very sweet ability to have especially against stall who love to toxic and burn things.
As for it not being a reliable check to the Premier Megas, the fact that it can go toe to toe with so many things and at the very least severely weaken them is a good thing in my eyes. Other people seem to think differently and that is has to consistently beat the best Megas to be viable. I don't see any of the other clerics and wish passers (beside Clefable) being able to do that at all, at least Umbreon has a chance on many common threats. I personally think toxic over heal bell is the best thing for Umbreon. I spam toxic on things like Keldeo and Azumarill (who it out-speeds) as they switch in so its never a free switch for the opponent. If you don't give it any rank then fine, but I will keep using it. Not just cause its my favorite Pokemon, but because it always pulls its weight and supports my team while being able to threaten many high tier Pokemon. Its not outclassed by any Pokemon (definitely not Sylveon) in OU so I will continue to see it being OU viable.
yes i am sure there is no bias at all whatsoever coming from UmbreonEternal"I would like to nominate Umbreon for C with the possibility of C+ in the future. I have been using him in all my OU teams for a good number of months now and it has always pulled its weight. I have been using the wish, protect, foul play and toxic set. However I have split the EV's to make him a mixed wall ( 252 hp, 128 def, 128 sdef bold nature) and it works wonders. Umbreon can take down the Tyranitar (normal and Mega)/Hippowdon + Excadrill set easily by poisoning the sand inducer and then using foul play on drill which takes 80% off his health (earthquake 2KO's Umbreon). This EV spread does not lack in tanking sdef either. It can just about survive a Mega-Gardevoir hyper voice at max health, which i have used to toxic her before he dies.
Honestly I see Umbreon as good as Sylveon (hence the thought of C+) and I use both of them on my team as a defensive core that can pass wishes and deal out solid damage each. They both had a good resistance to most of the main meta treats (except Mega-Maw who is now gone). Umbreon is so good at taking down fragile physical and special treats like Tallonflame (check), Landorus T (solid check), Gengar (check) Lati@s (check), Greninja (counter), mamoswine (check), Mega-Manetric, (check, often counter) and so on. It can also beat 1 on 1 Garchomp and Dragonite.
Honestly Umbreon is very viable and underrated in OU (it also does fine in Ubers tanking hits but that's another story). The reason Umbreon is so lowly ranked is cause everyone is using him wrong, make him a mixed wall and he can take on many offensive and defensive OU staples.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-161102204
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-161377823
Go to the end of the match where Umbreon beats Latios and Mega Garchomp at +2 using earthquake. The second replay shows Umbreon wining the match for me. Note that using my EV spread a critical hit earthquake from Exadrill only does 56%. Dropping this guy from the viability rankings as people are suggesting is just plain wrong"
This was a post I made quite a while ago, unfortunately people were distracted by other things at the time and it got ignored. I'm bringing it up again as I have still kept using him in every match and he never fails to do well in the OU metagame. I have also just had a match where Umbreon walled an entire team of OU viable mons and had it not been for some burn hax it would have won 6-0. The replay may have been a ORAS match but it was still almost identical to a XY OU game when Umbreon was being used.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/orasou-178910557
I would like it if Umbreon could be on the viability list before ORAS comes, because it has deserved to be there the whole time and should have never been dropped. Please note the the team I walled consisted of mostly Physical attackers, which proves that my 252 hp, 128 def, 128 sdef bold nature spread is able to wall physical and special sweepers. I still think it deserves C+ but lets do it softly softly and begin with D rank. Any objections? I have 6 months experience with this Pokemon and I think he is unquestionably OU viable. Both as a offensive wish passer (as shown in my last replay) and pure cleric.
Edit. And for what its worth it does really well against some of the new ORAS Megas. Including beating Mega Sceptile, Mega Metagross and giving Mega Salamence a big headache by removing most of its health from foul play while tanking +1 return.
Yep! When I think of top tier walls in OU like Skarmory, Chansey, Slowbro and Mega Venusaur, Umbreon is never far from my tongue. With that beautiful typing for countering.... All those dark and psychics types lacking another stab and coverage... Like Medicham, right? Yeah! That and bisharp! Umbreon is a wonderful stop to those threats, which is why he's a top tier wall. I love his access to relevant recovery that doesn't take 2 turns to work and ISN'T weather dependent, his expansive support movepool like confuse ray and his good attack to stop set up sweepers.Use umbreon with baton pass. I've posted on this so many times. I personally think Umbreon is a mid tier or top tier wall because of baton pass which lets it maintain offensive presence. It eases prediction like hell.
Forgo protect, or don't. The standard set is also good.
Slight nitpick, Zard Y should and commonly runs modest, so bop:Only issue is you used the wrong zard... Charizard standard isn't worth anything for calcs. Try these on for size:
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon in Sun: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 182-216 (46.1 - 54.8%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yeah, doesn't look as good when you add all that damage, even with spdef maxed.
It does get inner focus... :^)Jirachi is still going to scare the shit out of you with all those flinches.