Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

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Billions of other checks? Priority users, talonflame can to a chunk, true but breloom is often used as a lead, and if not exca can't sweep. Both rotom and lando is often used as offensive pivots, meaning chip damage is easy to get, especially when pare with TTar, where they will often come in and take a bit from crunch or stone edge, leaving them in range for exca to kill ones they come into rocks again.

I feel like your assuming that every team has all of lando, rotom, quagsire, breloom and talonflame e_e when they honestly never really have more than one or two.

You're right, I am assuming that every competent team has atleast two excadrill checks because that's just how prevalent and common sand rush exca is. I dunno why you think of Talonflame when I say excadrill check, but there are PLENTY of other checks to it than lando/rotom/quag/loom lol.
Lando-T
Rotom-W
Breloom
Azumarill
Quagsire
Defensive Mega Venu
Air Balloon Heatran
Slowbro
Defensive Mega Scizor
Defensive Zapdos
Mandibuzz
Skarmory
Landorus
Keldeo
Balloon Magnezone (Which can follow up with magnet rise to trap you)
Ferrothorn
Opposing Air Balloon Excadrill
Gliscor
Conkeldurr
Gyarados
Defensive Amoonguss
Chesnaught
Cresselia
Mega Heracross
Defensive Hippowdon
Alomomola
Suicune
Politoed
Celebi
Sableye

In a meta where exca drill is on 80% of HO teams yeah, I don't think its too unreasonable to pack atleast two of these mons on your team. I don't think its too unreasonable to think that a skilled player will keep atleast one of them healthy enough to take you on late-game either. Or at the very least not give an opportunity for excadrill to set up, and considering its hit super effectively by 60% of the meta and 2hko'd by neutral STABs from another 30%, that's really not too hard either.
 
4+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 250-295 (38.9 - 45.9%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 250-295 (35.5 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

she cant switch in if shes taken any prior damage. she needs to have over 90% of her health left to switch in with the 252 HP spread (96% to be exact). otherwise, even min damage both times will kill after rocks. not hard to do if shes constantly being pressured by special attacks throughout the match.

56 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 189-223 (26.8 - 31.6%) -- 55.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

meanwhile chansey can wall kyubes to death much easier. and thats if hes running dragon claw (mixed LO usually doesnt cuz roost is more important and bolt beam cuz of fusion bolt, (which still 4HKOes)

Those calcs are with a +atk nature. You would never use a +atk nature on an uninvested mega Chomp -- you would max SpA and speed. The actual damage (with a neutral attacking nature) is much closer to KyuB.



great. im not sure how mixed LO SD regular garchomp is even viable lol. Blast is a 2HKO at best, and SD would much rather have SE instead, or even sub. also LO chomp isnt even that great to begin with. hed much rather have yache or lum so he kills more than one thing.

as for excadrill, hes basically limited to HO only and needs sand to do what he does best. as i already stated, megachomp can work without sand. the power boost it grants is amazing, but its not like a a STAB base 100 attack and base 100 coverage move coming off of a base 170 attack stat is weak or anything. also megachomp works best on Bulky offense or offensive balance.

LO SD Garchomp is perfectly viable, and destroys stall that lacks Quagsire or unaware Clef. LO Fire Blast is for Skarm and Ferro, EQ and your choice of dclaw/outrage/stone edge round out the coverage.
 
I agree with most of alexwolf's proposed rank changes, so I'll just discuss the ones I disagree with.

Keep Mega Manectric in B rank: If facing competition for the mega slot is a reason to potentially drop Mega Venusaur, then it should definitely be a reason not to raise Mega Manectric any further. There are at least 10 better options for your mega slot. Mega Manectric is weak and is frail even with Intimidate. Stall teams can wall Mega Man without any effort. Mega Manectric can grab some momentum with Intimidate and Volt Switch, but it doesn't do much besides that.

Keep Mega Aerodactyl in B rank: Same as above; there is a lot of competition for the mega slot, even on stall teams which have to give up Zard X, Mega Venusaur, and Mega Scizor to use it. Mega Aerodactyl can check a lot of dangerous threats, but it can't counter much. Its offensive presence is a bit lacking. If it runs Aerial Ace and Aqua Tail as its attacks, Gyarados, Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor, Rotom-W can basically switch in for free. Mega Aerodactyl isn't a great stallbreaker with Taunt because it doesn't get Knock Off or Wisp which means bulky Waters like Slowbro, Mola, and Suicune can come in and start spamming Scald on it.

Mega Manectric, Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Venusaur are not completing for slots on the same teams. The former two tend to compete for slots on offense teams that do not want to use a boosting Mega (aka Bulky DDer) as a win condition. They are perfectly viable in such roles, and boosting sweepers that are not Megas do exist. Venu tends to find his home on balance teams, those are the teams most likely to utilize one of the three wall breaking Megas. Mega Man isn't deadweight against stall if only for the momentum he creates. Not to mention he destroys Skarm, Gliscor and Ferrothorn. He is walled by Chansey, but you can just as easily Volt Switch to a fighting type with prediction. A Mega Manectric+Terrakion/Meinshao/Conk core gives stall headaches, and that's before you take into account the four other teammates you are allowed to use. Aero almost always runs Stone Edge, don't know where that came from. Aero doesn't just run stall breaker and Taunt sets, he can run Hone Claws and 3 attacks, 3 attacks and Roost, and a few other things. Of course Aero can't break through some bulky Waters (and he can break through some with proper coverage), but Lando-I doesn't get past things with Ice Shard, and Talonflame can't get past any Rock type. That doesn't mean they can't do their job. Both Megas are not your standard set-up sweeper or wall breaker Megas, but that does not mean they aren't worth of higher ranks.
 
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Those calcs are with a +atk nature. You would never use a +atk nature on an uninvested mega Chomp -- you would max SpA and speed. The actual damage (with a neutral attacking nature) is much closer to KyuB.
That's not true. The standard set puts the EVs in SpA and uses a Naughty nature (+Atk -Sdef). This is because Mega Garchomp's Attack stat is so huge the percentage boost from the nature is more significant than EV investment.

Check the analysis
 
Quick question: what the fuck does Celebi deal with? No, seriously, it loses to so much it's not funny.

Dealing with Waters? Um, Crocune still beats you and you can't touch AV Azumarill. You can counter Keldeo, but better Keldeo answers exist like Amoonguss and Azumarill. Rotom-W will burn you as you switch in or just Volt Switch out. Slowbro and Alomomola are bulky enough to not care, have Regenerator so they care less, and Slowbro can hit you back with Flamethrower.

Dealing with Electrics? Your ability to check Thundurus is entirely dependent on what spread you are running and Thundy's set, Mega Manectric runs Flamethrower, and Raikou runs HP Ice with Specs or CM sometimes.

Checking Lando-I? CBBnite and Gliscor can already do that while not getting shit on by Flyspam and giving out loads of free switches, and they can deal with random Knock Offs, U-turns, and CM.

Ground resist? The most popular Ground-types run secondary STAB and/or coverage that can hit you hard. You give Lando-T a free switch so he can kill/cripple you with U-turn, get up rocks, or Knock Off something. Garchomp runs Fire Blast sometimes and Outrage does a load. Excadrill has Iron Head and you're just boned if Sand's up. Mamoswine has Ice STAB. Lando-I (which are supposed to be checking in the first place) can fucking switch into you.

Running Mono-Grass for offense gives tons of free switches in general and you can't threaten much with it.

If anything, Celebi should move down because it doesn't deal with anything significant outside of Keldeo (which you can still lose to!) and... that's pretty much it. You lose to the rest of S and a shit ton of A ranks.

sorry but you seem like you have little metagame understanding.

Offensive celebi beats crocune. You can touch av azumarill, and beat it 1 v 1 even if it has knock off. You have natural cure so you ignore burns from rotom-wash. Celebi doesn't give free switches because it has baton pass, and actually has a lot of reasons to be used over CBBnite and gliscor because it beats thundy, rotom wash and keldeo among others, something neither can claim. Hp ice and flamethrower from manectric and raikou respectively doesn't even 2ohko after rocks.

Lando i would never, ever switch into celebi. That is just dumb. Celebi has a pretty important niche of being able to lay rocks, being the best rotom wash counter in the tier, it beats keldeo landorus and thundy when running psychic, can beat excadrill and azumarill and choice locked lando t 1 v 1 if there is no crits or flinches ect. Celebi also runs offensive sets such as nasty plot which can beat a lot of defensive cores such as venu-tran. B- isn't that high, and you seem to be focusing an unesecarily amount on celebi. It has a pretty good niche, and should definately be B-.
 
Those calcs are with a +atk nature. You would never use a +atk nature on an uninvested mega Chomp -- you would max SpA and speed. The actual damage (with a neutral attacking nature) is much closer to KyuB.
I literally used the exact same spread that you did, which is the naughty nature one on the analysis. So no, it's not closer to Kyubes. Kyubes runs 56 Atk / 252 SpAtk / 200 Spe with a Mild or Rash nature, which is not at the same physical power that Megachomp has.


LO SD Garchomp is perfectly viable, and destroys stall that lacks Quagsire or unaware Clef. LO Fire Blast is for Skarm and Ferro, EQ and your choice of dclaw/outrage/stone edge round out the coverage.
So... You're using normal chomp for a job that Megachomp does better... Okay... Even SD Hera is a better choice lol
 
The problem with mega Garchomp is that he's a mixed attacker who doesn't have the stats to make use of both:

4+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 250-295 (38.9 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

He needs sand to 2hko Chansey. That means, without sand, he does the exact same thing as mixed KyuB... except takes a mega slot and doesn't have leftovers.

I've used mega Garchomp and he's always been extremely underwhelming. If you're going to give sand support to something, use Excadrill. And if you need a mixed wall breaker, use KyuB -- or hell, even regular Garchomp with a life orb and swords dance + fire blast.

Why on earth would you use Mega-Garchomp without sand? That's like using Landorus-I without life orb. Why would use any Mega-Evolution outside of it's most favorable conditions? Also, it's not as if sand can only be used by excadrill. It's entirely possible to use both. Excadrill kills fast, frail threats, and garchomp destroys bulkier ones. Also, Garchomp has a way better typing and movepool then kyurem-B, who has 3 viable physical moves, Outrage, fusion bolt, and iron head, with outrage being interchangeable w/ dragon claw. If kyurem uses leftovers, he'snot as powerful as chomp. If he uses life orb, he loses a lot of survivability, which he had trouble with in the first place thanks to his SR weakness and ice typing.

Finally, a better calc would look like this:

4+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Sand: 324-382 (50.4 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

Saying that he doesn't have the stats to be a mixed attacker is ridiculous, because they are the same stats of Kyurem-B, the exact same stats. The only thing commonly seen on stall that can claim to counter chomp is Sp. Def. Gliscor, which still has a good chance of being KO'd by Draco + stone edge after SR.

Mega-Garchomp Should stay in B+, if not move to A-.

Also...
Lucario should stay in B. Lucario still messes with offense thanks to it's ability to revenge kill weakened Talonflame and Thundurus and blow right by them when sweeping. It's also not deadweight against bulkier teams, because it's close combat is still as powerful as ever. It may have a difficult choice with it's moves, but that's where teambuilding comes in. If your team has trouble with landorus-t and/or gliscor, use Ice punch. If it has trouble with clefable and the like, use iron tail. If your team has trouble with Terrakion and the like, use bullet punch. I also don't get this nonsense about lucario being unable to OHKO landorus-T after a swords dance with ice punch.

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 484-572 (126.7 - 149.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

With Aegi's recent ban, I fail to see how lucario got worse.
 
I literally used the exact same spread that you did, which is the naughty nature one on the analysis. So no, it's not closer to Kyubes. Kyubes runs 56 Atk / 252 SpAtk / 200 Spe with a Mild or Rash nature, which is not at the same physical power that Megachomp has.

Okay, fair enough. I think that's a bad spread in general, but I won't get into that here.


So... You're using normal chomp for a job that Megachomp does better... Okay... Even SD Hera is a better choice lol

Yes, because then I can use another mega.

And no, SD hera sucks in OU. Garchomp has 102 base speed, which Hera (and Garchomp mega) both lack. This means you can actually do something against faster teams.

Why on earth would you use Mega-Garchomp without sand? That's like using Landorus-I without life orb. Why would use any Mega-Evolution outside of it's most favorable conditions? Also, it's not as if sand can only be used by excadrill. It's entirely possible to use both. Excadrill kills fast, frail threats, and garchomp destroys bulkier ones. Also, Garchomp has a way better typing and movepool then kyurem-B, who has 3 viable physical moves, Outrage, fusion bolt, and iron head, with outrage being interchangeable w/ dragon claw. If kyurem uses leftovers, he'snot as powerful as chomp. If he uses life orb, he loses a lot of survivability, which he had trouble with in the first place thanks to his SR weakness and ice typing.

Finally, a better calc would look like this:

4+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Sand: 324-382 (50.4 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

Saying that he doesn't have the stats to be a mixed attacker is ridiculous, because they are the same stats of Kyurem-B, the exact same stats. The only thing commonly seen on stall that can claim to counter chomp is Sp. Def. Gliscor, which still has a good chance of being KO'd by Draco + stone edge after SR.

Mega-Garchomp Should stay in B+, if not move to A-.

By "doesn't have the stats," I meant "he doesn't have the EVs." You're either too weak on the physical side or too weak on the special side. KyuB runs into that issue as well when it comes to Chansey (and possibly Mew), but literally nothing else on stall will take on KyuB -- Venusaur, Gliscor, etc. are all taken care of by his ice coverage and teravolt. Garchomp will have multiple switch-ins depending on the spread.

And when you use mega Chomp, a sand setter, AND Excadrill at the same time, you're just asking to get run over by any water type with ice coverage. The other 3 slots can't make up for that lack of defensive synergy. And mega Chomp is way too slow to create an HO team.

It's just too hard to make sand teams with mega Chomp, especially when the alternative is to use Excadrill and another mega.
 
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And no, SD hera sucks in OU. Garchomp has 102 base speed, which Hera (and Garchomp mega) both lack. This means you can actually do something against faster teams.
... Okay....

SD Hera is literally the reason why he should move to A+.. Lol

It fucking dismantles stall. And balance. And does decent against HO. Now I'm starting to question your experience with the current meta...
 
... Okay....

SD Hera is literally the reason why he should move to A+.. Lol

It fucking dismantles stall. And balance. And does decent against HO. Now I'm starting to question your experience with the current meta...

I think you meant to say "SD Mega Hera", not "SD Hera"

I will agree with you that mega Hera is a better wall breaker than Garchomp. He's also better than mega Garchomp, too.
 
And when you use mega Chomp, a sand setter, AND Excadrill at the same time, you're just asking to get run over by any water type with ice coverage. The other 3 slots can't make up for that lack of defensive synergy. And mega Chomp is way too slow to create an HO team.

It's just too hard to make sand teams with mega Chomp, especially when the alternative is to use Excadrill and another mega.
Err the defensive problem you mentioned is nowhere near as big as you make it out. If you can't manage to cover water types (some of whom, like Greninja and Keldeo, lose to drill in sand) with THREE teamslots, then the problem is your teambuilding in my opinion. I've used that core myself and it is really nice. And what do you mean it's too slow for a HO team? Is Aegislash fast? I already mentioned in this thread how good Megachomp is as bulky offensive mon. The thing that people have to get through their head is that not every offensive Pokemon has to be a sweeper.
 
sorry but you seem like you have little metagame understanding.

Offensive celebi beats crocune. You can touch av azumarill, and beat it 1 v 1 even if it has knock off. You have natural cure so you ignore burns from rotom-wash. Celebi doesn't give free switches because it has baton pass, and actually has a lot of reasons to be used over CBBnite and gliscor because it beats thundy, rotom wash and keldeo among others, something neither can claim. Hp ice and flamethrower from manectric and raikou respectively doesn't even 2ohko after rocks.

Lando i would never, ever switch into celebi. That is just dumb. Celebi has a pretty important niche of being able to lay rocks, being the best rotom wash counter in the tier, it beats keldeo landorus and thundy when running psychic, can beat excadrill and azumarill and choice locked lando t 1 v 1 if there is no crits or flinches ect. Celebi also runs offensive sets such as nasty plot which can beat a lot of defensive cores such as venu-tran. B- isn't that high, and you seem to be focusing an unesecarily amount on celebi. It has a pretty good niche, and should definately be B-.
I wouldn't be posting here I didn't know what I was talking about to some extent and/or didn't do some calcs (which I did).

Second of all, I wasn't even talking about offensive Celebi (which still is shit against AV, but I'll get to that in a minute). Other things can beat Crocune without having a shit ton of weaknesses.

Thirdly, AV Azumarill. Here's some calcs with several possible spreads, including the most generous spread for offensive Celebi (Modest Life Orb).
252 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 128-152 (37.1 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Celebi Giga Drain vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 166-198 (48.1 - 57.3%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 138-164 (40 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Celebi Giga Drain vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 179-213 (51.8 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


You don't break 50% unless you have a Life Orb, and even then you take 75% minimum from Knock Off without any investment in defense and going before Azumarill means you don't get the healing from Giga Drain, so you'll be at 15% if you had LO if you're lucky. Azumarill literally has no reason to switch out if it's healthy and will cripple you with Knock Off, forcing you to use Recover (which you probably don't have if you're running Nasty Plot and Baton Pass). Your opponent can then switch in just about anything that can take a hit from you (not hard honestly) and you'll be forced out or killed while Azumarill with still be alive.

Oh, here's a fun calc.
+2 252+ SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 276-326 (80 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You can't even OHKO it at +2 unless you have a Life Orb, (which you won't have because lol Knock Off). Giga Drain will heal you for 163 health max from that attack if you do so (leaving you at 246 after Knock Off damage) and Play Rough does 178 damage minimum (max 211) and leave you at 68 if you are lucky. Aqua Jet has a chance to KO if Play Rough got a high damage roll (it does 40 to 48 damage) meaning you can still lose if you boost in front of it.

Fourth, you still care about Burns because it negates your Lefties and you have to switch out to remove it, which can wear you down if SR is still up.

Fifth, other things can check Thundy and Keldeo (like AV Azumarill...) and Rotom-W can just be worn down (btw Gliscor does beat Rotom-W).

Sixth, offensive Celebi is 2HKO'd by Mega Manectric's Flamethrower, possibly OHKO'd by Overheat (assuming people still run that?), and can be 2HKO'd by CM/Specs Raikou's HP Ice.

7th, thanks for putting words into my mouth; "can" does not mean "want" and your opponent will probably only switch him in if they're being ballsy or want to sac it. If it does get a free switch, Life Orb U-Turn can OHKO the offensive set and so can the rare (but honestly pretty stupid) Sludge Wave.

0 Atk Life Orb Landorus U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 322-380 (94.4 - 111.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 322-382 (94.4 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

8th, your ability to beat Thundy is dependent on your set and Thundy's set; you have to pray that it's running the set your set can beat.

9th, Lando-T is probably going to be spamming U-turn if it's Choice locked.

Finally, other things can be VenuTran like Kyurem-B. This isn't a new thing.
 
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I wouldn't be posting here I didn't know what I was talking about to some extent and/or didn't do some calcs (which I did).

Second of all, I wasn't even talking about offensive Celebi (which still is shit against AV, but I'll get to that in a minute). Other things can beat Crocune without having a shit ton of weaknesses.

Thirdly, AV Azumarill. Here's some calcs with several possible spreads, including the most generous spread for offensive Celebi (Modest Life Orb).
252 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 128-152 (37.1 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Celebi Giga Drain vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 166-198 (48.1 - 57.3%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 138-164 (40 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Celebi Giga Drain vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 179-213 (51.8 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


You don't break 50% unless you have a Life Orb, and even then you take 75% minimum from Knock Off without any investment in defense and going before Azumarill means you don't get the healing from Giga Drain, so you'll be at 15% if you had LO if you're lucky. Azumarill literally has no reason to switch out if it's healthy and will cripple you with Knock Off, forcing you to use Recover (which you probably don't have if you're running Nasty Plot and Baton Pass). Your opponent can then switch in just about anything that can take a hit from you (not hard honestly) and you'll be forced out or killed while Azumarill with still be alive).

Oh, here's a fun calc.
+2 252+ SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 276-326 (80 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You can't even OHKO it at +2 unless you have a Life Orb, (which you won't have because lol Knock Off). Giga Drain will heal you for 163 health max from that attack if you do so (leaving you at 246 after Knock Off damage) and Play Rough does 178 damage minimum (max 211) and leave you at 68 if you are lucky. Aqua Jet has a chance to KO if Play Rough got a high damage roll (it does 40 to 48 damage) meaning you can still lose if you boost in front of it.

Fourth, you still care about Burns because it negates your Lefties and you have to switch out to remove it, which can wear you down if SR is still up.

Fifth, other things can check Thundy and Keldeo (like AV Azumarill...) and Rotom-W can just be worn down (btw Gliscor does beat Rotom-W).

Sixth, offensive Celebi is 2HKO'd by Mega Manectric's Flamethrower, possibly OHKO'd by Overheat (assuming people still run that?), and can be 2HKO'd by CM/Specs Raikou's HP Ice.

7th, thanks for putting words into my mouth; "can" does not mean "want" and your opponent will probably only switch him in if they're being ballsy or want to sac it. If it does get a free switch, Life Orb U-Turn can OHKO the offensive set and so can the rare (but honestly pretty stupid) Sludge Wave.

0 Atk Life Orb Landorus U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 322-380 (94.4 - 111.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 322-382 (94.4 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

8th, your ability to beat Thundy is dependent on your set and Thundy's set; you have to pray that it's running the set your set can beat.

9th, Lando-T is probably going to be spamming U-turn if it's Choice locked.

Finally, other things can be VenuTran like Kyurem-B. This isn't a new thing.

calm down bud i didnt mean to offend you...

Im saying offensive celebi beats crocune, but I was mainly talking about sp.defencive celebi which does beat azumarill 1 v 1. Knock off does 60%, celebi giga drains, then is above 50%, it then recovers and knock off doesnt 2ohko anymore. Im saying celebi's best set is its sp.defensive set, but offensive celebi is decent as well. Most people would only use sp.defensive celebi, which beats lando i, thundy (when running psychic which you should), rotom wash, keldeo, azumarill 1 v 1 ect. Im not saying its top tier stuff, but its definately deserving of B-. I don't know why were arguing about this when there is more important stuff to cover...
 
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Sorry I should've put this in an earlier post, but people keep trying to argue Kyub>Megachomp but Megachomp has major differentiating factors. Primarily its defensive capabilities. Megachomp is only very slightly bulkier than Kyub on its face, but its defensive typing is miles above. Mainly because Kyub is weak to Rock, Steel and Fighting while Chomp resists Rock and is neutral to Fighting and Steel.

Firstly SR resistance >>>>>> SR weakness on a bulky offense mon. Can't really overestimate the impact of that.

Secondly it allows Chomp to beat several things Kyub can't, like Terrakion, Mega Heracross, Excadrill , non-Ice Punch/Beam Tyranitars, Bisharp, Landorus-T, Scizor, and the list goes on and on (it's actually much longer than even I realized when I started writing this post).

Megachomp's coverage is also more handy, allowing it to crush common Steels like Ferrothorn, Skarm, and Heatran, all of whom Kyub has major major difficulty with. This also makes it more deadly under special support (Sticky Web, Tailwind, etc.)

All of this taken together demonstrates how Mega Garchomp is simply a better, more reliable Pokemon in this metagame than Kyub is. The only real advantage Kyub has is not taking up your mega slot (and killing Mega Venu easier?), but like so many other cases this just means you're using an inferior Pokemon because you need a different mega.

I'm starting to agree with the other fella who said it ought to be A-. It should be at least the same rank as Kyub, but I'd be satisfied to see that move down instead.
 
Sorry I should've put this in an earlier post, but people keep trying to argue Kyub>Megachomp but Megachomp has major differentiating factors. Primarily its defensive capabilities. Megachomp is only very slightly bulkier than Kyub on its face, but its defensive typing is miles above. Mainly because Kyub is weak to Rock, Steel and Fighting while Chomp resists Rock and is neutral to Fighting and Steel.

Firstly SR resistance >>>>>> SR weakness on a bulky offense mon. Can't really overestimate the impact of that.

Secondly it allows Chomp to beat several things Kyub can't, like Terrakion, Mega Heracross, Excadrill , non-Ice Punch/Beam Tyranitars, Bisharp, Landorus-T, Scizor, and the list goes on and on (it's actually much longer than even I realized when I started writing this post).

Megachomp's coverage is also more handy, allowing it to crush common Steels like Ferrothorn, Skarm, and Heatran, all of whom Kyub has major major difficulty with. This also makes it more deadly under special support (Sticky Web, Tailwind, etc.)

All of this taken together demonstrates how Mega Garchomp is simply a better, more reliable Pokemon in this metagame than Kyub is. The only real advantage Kyub has is not taking up your mega slot (and killing Mega Venu easier?), but like so many other cases this just means you're using an inferior Pokemon because you need a different mega.

I'm starting to agree with the other fella who said it ought to be A-. It should be at least the same rank as Kyub, but I'd be satisfied to see that move down instead.
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 172-203 (43.9 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 152-179 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO


252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Kyurem-B: 673-795 (172.1 - 203.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Garchomp: 642-759 (179.8 - 212.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Kyurem-B is actually bulkier on the special side while Mega Garchomp is slightly bulkier physically.

Kyurem-B and Mega Garchomp aren't completely comparable since they have different coverage, capabilities, and require different kinds of support.
 
Kyurem-B and Mega Garchomp aren't completely comparable since they have different coverage, capabilities, and require different kinds of support.
I wouldn't argue, but it still means that people need to stop repping Kyub as "Mega Garchomp without the mega slot" because that's patently false. And I would argue that Megachomp's coverage and capabilities are overall of greater utility in this metagame than Kyub's are. Thanks for showing Kyub takes the special hits a bit better though (the defensive typing is really the major issue however as they're not far apart on either side raw).
 
I am lazy to type on here, but I really wanted to share my thoughts on these 'mons I couldn't stop myself from posting. :D

Mega Aerodactyl is definitely B+ material. No one is objecting. It saw a lot of tournament usage and it's ability to check BirdSPAM simultaneously made it such a good option. Blazing speed to revenge kill common threats like Keldeo for example, ridiculous coverage, makes it so good. Hits like a truck and most priority moves don't get on it. It's a solid choice. Even got better with he Mega Mawile and Aegislash bans. I would nominate this for A- but let's take baby steps first.

Mega Alakazam is another great choice as well that can appeal to be a good future A- 'mon. You are exchanging Mega Aerodactyl's coverage and utility to get a ridiculous check to Sand Offense that can sweep them cold hearted with good prediction and can trace multiple amazing abilities like Sheer Force, Protean, Multiscale, Levitate, Regnerator, etc. it has so much use in the metagame it's on par with Mega Aero they both need to bumped up to A-.

Yea.
 
I am lazy to type on here, but I really wanted to share my thoughts on these 'mons I couldn't stop myself from posting. :D

Mega Aerodactyl is definitely B+ material. No one is objecting. It saw a lot of tournament usage and it's ability to check BirdSPAM simultaneously made it such a good option. Blazing speed to revenge kill common threats like Keldeo for example, ridiculous coverage, makes it so good. Hits like a truck and most priority moves don't get on it. It's a solid choice. Even got better with he Mega Mawile and Aegislash bans. I would nominate this for A- but let's take baby steps first.

Mega Alakazam is another great choice as well that can appeal to be a good future A- 'mon. You are exchanging Mega Aerodactyl's coverage and utility to get a ridiculous check to Sand Offense that can sweep them cold hearted with good prediction and can trace multiple amazing abilities like Sheer Force, Protean, Multiscale, Levitate, Regnerator, etc. it has so much use in the metagame it's on par with Mega Aero they both need to bumped up to A-.

Yea.

Nah Mega zam is B+ material, but no more. It often can't OHKO bulkier threats without SE moves (and it needs to b/c its not really taking hits...). It also suffers from a bit of 4mss: You want to hit mew with shadow ball, mega scizor with hp fire, and heatran with focus blast; unfortunately you have to pick and choose a little here. Chansey is definitely annoying without taunt and you wanna try and avoid the sucker punch from bisharp to atleast improve your odds a little. Basically mzam is great and all but it can't take a hit and there's a little too much that it wants to do.
Trace can be deadly but its also inconsistent :[

Also mega aero does not really hit like a truck lol, its only 135 base attack and only the 60bp move gets stab and tough claws boost. Its pretty strong, but its no nuke; it needs to rely on its wide coverage to do damage most of the time and can only kill weakened mons with neutral attacks.
 
I wouldn't argue, but it still means that people need to stop repping Kyub as "Mega Garchomp without the mega slot" because that's patently false. And I would argue that Megachomp's coverage and capabilities are overall of greater utility in this metagame than Kyub's are. Thanks for showing Kyub takes the special hits a bit better though (the defensive typing is really the major issue however as they're not far apart on either side raw).
The main turn-off for Mega Garchomp is the fact it takes up your Mega slot, which means you can't have it support any of the Mega sweepers like Zard X, Gyarados, or Tyranitar. Kyurem-B is able to support them while access to an item slot gives it a degree of versatility that Mega Garchomp does not possess.
  • Scarf allows it to handle offensive teams easier.
  • Band hits fucking hard, especially with Outrage.
  • LO gives all of its moves a power boost while Sand Force only boosts Earthquake, Stone Edge, and Iron Head.
  • Roost can let it stay around much longer. Especially useful for LO sets.
  • Substitute fucks up Stall once Chansey is gone or severely weakened and can hassle offense if it gets one up.

I personally don't have an opinion about where Mega Garchomp should be, but I won't say it's "better" than Kyurem-B.
 
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Err the defensive problem you mentioned is nowhere near as big as you make it out. If you can't manage to cover water types (some of whom, like Greninja and Keldeo, lose to drill in sand) with THREE teamslots, then the problem is your teambuilding in my opinion. I've used that core myself and it is really nice. And what do you mean it's too slow for a HO team? Is Aegislash fast? I already mentioned in this thread how good Megachomp is as bulky offensive mon. The thing that people have to get through their head is that not every offensive Pokemon has to be a sweeper.

Keldeo doesn't lose to Excadrill at all unless he switches in on an EQ while sand is already up.

As for the Garchomp vs. Aegislash comparison: Aegislash was used on HO as a spin blocker. If rapid spin didn't exist, Aegislash would not have been used nearly as much on HO as he was. Garchomp has no such function. Plenty of fast offensive mons (the aforementioned Keldeo, for example) can break walls and still out run half the meta game.

Mega Garchomp is just subpar. The other "weaker" megas (Ampharos, Alakazam, etc) at least have unique niches. Mega Garchomp has literally the same attacking stats as KyuB -- just with less speed and no item. I see no need to raise Garchomp, and if anything, he should be lower on the list than other megas like Ampharos, who can do something that nothing else can do.
 
I wouldn't be posting here I didn't know what I was talking about to some extent and/or didn't do some calcs (which I did).

Second of all, I wasn't even talking about offensive Celebi (which still is shit against AV, but I'll get to that in a minute). Other things can beat Crocune without having a shit ton of weaknesses.

Thirdly, AV Azumarill. Here's some calcs with several possible spreads, including the most generous spread for offensive Celebi (Modest Life Orb).
252 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 128-152 (37.1 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Celebi Giga Drain vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 166-198 (48.1 - 57.3%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 138-164 (40 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Celebi Giga Drain vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 179-213 (51.8 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


You don't break 50% unless you have a Life Orb, and even then you take 75% minimum from Knock Off without any investment in defense and going before Azumarill means you don't get the healing from Giga Drain, so you'll be at 15% if you had LO if you're lucky. Azumarill literally has no reason to switch out if it's healthy and will cripple you with Knock Off, forcing you to use Recover (which you probably don't have if you're running Nasty Plot and Baton Pass). Your opponent can then switch in just about anything that can take a hit from you (not hard honestly) and you'll be forced out or killed while Azumarill with still be alive.

Oh, here's a fun calc.
+2 252+ SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 276-326 (80 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You can't even OHKO it at +2 unless you have a Life Orb, (which you won't have because lol Knock Off). Giga Drain will heal you for 163 health max from that attack if you do so (leaving you at 246 after Knock Off damage) and Play Rough does 178 damage minimum (max 211) and leave you at 68 if you are lucky. Aqua Jet has a chance to KO if Play Rough got a high damage roll (it does 40 to 48 damage) meaning you can still lose if you boost in front of it.

Fourth, you still care about Burns because it negates your Lefties and you have to switch out to remove it, which can wear you down if SR is still up.

Fifth, other things can check Thundy and Keldeo (like AV Azumarill...) and Rotom-W can just be worn down (btw Gliscor does beat Rotom-W).

Sixth, offensive Celebi is 2HKO'd by Mega Manectric's Flamethrower, possibly OHKO'd by Overheat (assuming people still run that?), and can be 2HKO'd by CM/Specs Raikou's HP Ice.

7th, thanks for putting words into my mouth; "can" does not mean "want" and your opponent will probably only switch him in if they're being ballsy or want to sac it. If it does get a free switch, Life Orb U-Turn can OHKO the offensive set and so can the rare (but honestly pretty stupid) Sludge Wave.

0 Atk Life Orb Landorus U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 322-380 (94.4 - 111.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 322-382 (94.4 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

8th, your ability to beat Thundy is dependent on your set and Thundy's set; you have to pray that it's running the set your set can beat.

9th, Lando-T is probably going to be spamming U-turn if it's Choice locked.

Finally, other things can be VenuTran like Kyurem-B. This isn't a new thing.

PDef Celebi does beat AV Azumarill with and Recover. After the Knock Off, Play Rough hits for 38% at max. Recover has 16 PP, Giga Drain 3 hits after rocks. Every 3 Recover buys you enough health for another Giga Drain so Celebi > AV Azumarill 1v1. Even the SDef set is perfectly capable of beating Azumarill if it gets a Thunder Wave paralysis every 3 turns on average before running out of Recover PP.

Yes burns negate Leftovers but so what? What other pokemon on offense/balance is capable of switching into Rotom-W without fearing a burn? At least Celebi has the liberty of being able to remove the burn without wasting another turn. Even Gliscor which you mentioned cannot switch into a predicted WoW if Toxic Orb isn't activated. Not to mention the rare specs Rotom-W which Gliscor has trouble.

Yes other stuff check Keldeo and Thundurus but not many are able to switch in on every single possible move they carry without getting badly crippled. Latias hates Icy Wind ones and also Scald burns, Venusaur and Amoonguss are 2 hitted by HP Flying on the switch with Rocks up, other stuff fear other things which are not rare either. The only 2 true hard counters for Keldeo are Celebi and Jellicent who can switch into everything bar HP Bug (lol). Physical Thundurus fails to 2HKO with anything so long as Celebi uses Recover on the first Knock Off. Any other Thundurus fails to get 2HKO in any case. Uninvested Psychic 2HKOs after Rocks.

Other stuff might be able to counter those 3 and no one disagree with that, but barely anything can check all 3 with only 1 slot. First off I shall just list the 1 thing it do that nothing else can do: Beating ALL variants of MegaGyarados without getting trapped and killed by Gothitelle; it can take 2 +1 IceFang; variants without Taunt/Substitute are screwed by TWave, variants with Taunt/Substitute lack Ice Fang.
Other than that, Celebi is able to check/counter other dangerous stuff too: PDef beats SD-less Excadril, Terrakion, Kabutops; SDef walls Lati@s, Kingdra, defeats MVenusaur 1 on 1 with Psychic. And of course it beats Breloom. Perish Song defeats CMClef and CroCune. Heal Bell is great to have because Celebi doesn't kill momentum on balance compared to other clerics. That's a lot of threats it is covering for 1 single team slot.

Sure it doesn't beat all of those at once due to move set restrictions, but you don't have to. Celebi is the textbook definition of a Utility Counter, which has multiple sets capable of countering multiple different lists of things, and you pick the set that is best for your team.

Anyway can we stop talking about Celebi? Celebi has been talked about for almost 50 pages from the previous thread. Those thinking it should drop (you) have been listing stuff that beats it, while those against it dropping (everyone else) have been listing stuff that it beats. Points have been repeated so many times it's getting annoying. And I believe mods already came to a consensus over it too.

EDIT:
Ok, after some playtesting with offensive Celebi, it basically destroys all its supposed counters you mentioned.

If you really want to kill AV Azumarill and Crocune faster, just do this:
240+ SpA Life Orb Celebi Leaf Storm vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 307-367 (88.9 - 106.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

240+ SpA Life Orb Celebi Leaf Storm vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 296-351 (73.2 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-2 240+ SpA Life Orb Celebi Leaf Storm vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 112-135 (27.7 - 33.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

296 + 112 = 408 on a min roll -> CroCune has 404 HP, so as long as its lefties is negated by rocks its a dead Suicune
You cannot Pursuit trap it before the Leaf Storm drop because:
240+ SpA Life Orb Celebi Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 369-437 (107.5 - 127.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240+ SpA Life Orb Celebi Hidden Power Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 208-247 (76.4 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(Sucker Punch hits for 70.6 - 83.2%)
240+ SpA Life Orb Celebi Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 335-398 (98.2 - 116.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Other calcs done with 232 HP / 240 SpA / 36 Spe with TWave, Leaf Storm, HP Fire, Recover, holding Life Orb:
240+ SpA Life Orb Celebi Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 355-419 (98.3 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
240+ SpA Life Orb Celebi Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 335-395 (105 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240+ SpA Life Orb Celebi Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 302-356 (79 - 93.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
240+ SpA Life Orb Celebi Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 274-324 (69.5 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
240+ SpA Life Orb Celebi Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Garchomp: 320-376 (89.6 - 105.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
240+ SpA Life Orb Celebi Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric: 302-356 (107.4 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(Overheat does 73.1 - 86.2%)
240+ SpA Life Orb Celebi Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 234-281 (66.4 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
If you decide to drop TWave or HP Fire for Psychic:
240+ SpA Life Orb Celebi Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 208-247 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
240+ SpA Life Orb Celebi Psychic vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 160-188 (45.4 - 53.4%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
(Leaf Storm kills after that)
240+ SpA Life Orb Celebi Psychic vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Mega Heracross: 330-393 (106.1 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240+ SpA Life Orb Celebi Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 299-354 (82.1 - 97.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
240+ SpA Life Orb Celebi Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 188-224 (48.9 - 58.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
240+ SpA Life Orb Celebi Psychic vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 242-283 (68.9 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Offensive Celebi checks tons of shit that threaten the defensive set and the opponent is practically screwed if he predicts and sends in the standard checks for the defensive set.

EDIT2:
@ keldeo
Prediction goes both ways, you cannot just assume you can make a perfect switch out of HP Flying without the opponent switching out as well. Being able to take 2 hits without trouble means you always can cripple the switch-in (or Keldeo) with TWave to ease the prediction.
@ azumarill
No check to Azumarill likes their item Knocked Off either. Celebi does not have to Recover after the Knock Off because Knock Off>Play Rough>Aqua Jet does not kill PDef ones after Giga Drain. Again you cannot be so sure that Azumarill will make the perfect switch, whereas Celebi always have a safe option of using Thunder Wave since it is capable of taking another hit.
@ thundurus
Thundurus without Thunder Wave does not need Celebi to revenge kill. Nasty Plot gets 2HKOed it if tries to set up on Celebi, Defiant does not get a boost if Thundy is coming in on Celebi (your opponent switches Thundurus in, you obviously don't switch Celebi into it knowing it has a Defiant boost and is easily revenge killed by <insert anything fast here>). You kill arguably the most set that is crippling to check, which is really the only set that needs to be checked.
@ gyara
Doesn't change the fact that it can take 2 Ice Fang if really needed. I assume the user is smart enough to switch in Celebi on the DD so they take a single Ice Fang, not after the DD.
@ other stuff can check similar stuff
But not many can do all of them at the same time. Yes you can run more than 1 on the team, but that means shifts the team to a more stallish nature, while Celebi serves as a glue on offense/balance specifically, where utility counter or utility check fits best on.
@ last point
Lol he listed it as one of those that could potentially rise to B, and you were advocating it to drop back to C+.
I can't be bothered to write other things on Celebi, but I have stated my point.
 
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PDef Celebi does beat AV Azumarill with and Recover. After the Knock Off, Play Rough hits for 38% at max. Recover has 16 PP, Giga Drain 3 hits after rocks. Every 3 Recover buys you enough health for another Giga Drain so Celebi > AV Azumarill 1v1. Even the SDef set is perfectly capable of beating Azumarill if it gets a Thunder Wave paralysis every 3 turns on average before running out of Recover PP.
All Physically Defensive Celebi does is lose its Lefties and is forced to Recover, giving your opponent a free switch to a Celebi check and they'll still have a healthy Azumarill since Giga Drain only does 35% max.

0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 102-120 (29.5 - 34.7%) -- 4.2% chance to 3HKO

Yes other stuff check Keldeo and Thundurus but not many are able to switch in on every single possible move they carry without getting badly crippled. Latias hates Icy Wind ones and also Scald burns, Venusaur and Amoonguss are 2 hitted by HP Flying on the switch with Rocks up, other stuff fear other things which are not rare either. The only 2 true hard counters for Keldeo are Celebi and Jellicent who can switch into everything bar HP Bug (lol). Physical Thundurus fails to 2HKO with anything so long as Celebi uses Recover on the first Knock Off. Any other Thundurus fails to get 2HKO in any case. Uninvested Psychic 2HKOs after Rocks.
Keldeo only beats those things if you're dumb enough to leave them in after they get smacked by super effective coverage; you can switch something else in after finding out what Keldeo locks itself into. Amoongus doesn't mind HP Flying since Regenerator will heal it off as it switches out to something that can tank it.

You are still losing Lefties to deal with Thundy, and you can't beat one with a Defiant boost. Nasty Plot sets will still beat you easy since a boosted HP Flying 2HKOs.

+2 252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Celebi: 282-332 (69.8 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Other stuff might be able to counter those 3 and no one disagree with that, but barely anything can check all 3 with only 1 slot. First off I shall just list the 1 thing it do that nothing else can do: Beating ALL variants of MegaGyarados without getting trapped and killed by Gothitelle; it can take 2 +1 IceFang; variants without Taunt/Substitute are screwed by TWave, variants with Taunt/Substitute lack Ice Fang.
Other than that, Celebi is able to check/counter other dangerous stuff too: PDef beats SD-less Excadril, Terrakion, Kabutops; SDef walls Lati@s, Kingdra, defeats MVenusaur 1 on 1 with Psychic. And of course it beats Breloom. Perish Song defeats CMClef and CroCune. Heal Bell is great to have because Celebi doesn't kill momentum on balance compared to other clerics. That's a lot of threats it is covering for 1 single team slot.
+1 Ice Fang 2HKOs after rocks and there are more consistent ways of dealing with it like Thundurus' T-Wave.

+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Celebi: 196-232 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO

This is also assuming that Celebi is completely healthy when it goes to do its job.

Sure it doesn't beat all of those at once due to move set restrictions, but you don't have to. Celebi is the textbook definition of a Utility Counter, which has multiple sets capable of countering multiple different lists of things, and you pick the set that is best for your team.
Except it's not, its a Utility check that got shafted by Flyspam and the Knock Off buff.

Anyway can we stop talking about Celebi? Celebi has been talked about for almost 50 pages from the previous thread. Those thinking it should drop (you) have been listing stuff that beats it, while those against it dropping (everyone else) have been listing stuff that it beats. Points have been repeated so many times it's getting annoying. And I believe mods already came to a consensus over it too.
alexwolf listed Celebi as one of the Pokemon that should be discussed. Its ability to beat things is entirely set dependent (both for Celebi and the things it's supposed to be checking) and can't realistically deal with more than 1 (maybe 2) S-ranks at a time on a consistent basis. It has severe 4MSS, wanting to run Baton Pass, Recover, Thunder Wave, Psychic, Giga Drain, and Earth Power but can only choose between 4 . Forgoing any of the offensive options gimps your ability to check something (No Giga Drain? Have fun dealing with Mega Gyarados!). Tons of Pokemon already check many of the threats you mention (and usually are better at it) while also being more useful overall.
 
mew is practically god in this metagame, with the stallbreaking set just being so efficient but still effective vs offense. with a simple set of taunt / roost / wow / knock off it disrupts a huge amount of the tier as it takes on stall amazingly with taunt + wow + roost but also offense with wow + roost + knock off which does things like taking away azumarills av making it more vulnerable to keldeo or landorus's life orb so that it is much weaker and can be stalled out by mew itself. some people are saying conkeldurr is an answer to this thing but you still knock off its assault vest making it much less useful against like every special attacker in the tier that it would normally switch into. obviously mew also has a fantastic movepool and it can run whatever move it wants over knock off if it wants to lure in / take on something better. this is just one set and it can run like 3 others so theres not really that much more to talk about, a+ is a fitting rank. it's honestly really great just to see the huge impact aegislash leaving has had on the metagame.

no opinion on garchomp but honestly i dont think it can move down even though dice is right that a lot of its roles overlap with landorus as an offensive stealth rocker or a zardx check (even though it hates burn much more than lando).

i also honestly think it's time for mega charizard x to go down to a+ rank. no one is denying it isn't a powerful choice with a lot of sets but with the ubiquity if sand offense in this meta it definitely struggles. there are heaps of roadblocks to it such as scarf landorus-t which is by far landorus-t's best set at the moment and typical stallmons like quagsire, hippowdon, defensive landorus-t, slowbro, and offensive checks like prankster thund, azumarill, heatran. its defensive set is nice but its very easily revengeable by things like garchomp / lum dnite and the fact that it is yet another stall mon ohkoed by landorus doesnt really help. jukain is right in that it is incredibly vulnerable to passive damage through stealth rock and sand and fblitz recoil until it can actually get into the range of like an azumarill aqua jet or a breloom mach punch.

not sure about mega tyranitar, one one hand it gains the ability to use fire punch to bone ferrothorn which means it has less answers on balance but on the other hand with it means that excadrill doesn't get eight turns which i really dont know if i should count as a con. imo stay where it is for now.
EDIT: actually thinking about it with slowbro everywhere thanks to medi and terrak and heaps of revenge killers like scarf superpower landorus-t and scarf keldeo for even +1 variants, maybe a rank is more suitable.

i agree with mega gyarados for a rank simply because ferrothorn is absolutely everywhere on literally every single balance squad, it's on par with clefable in terms of its ubiquity on balance which is why every greninja / lati@s are running hp fire nowadays. i dont see any reason for this to be a+ when it has such a common roadblock against balance teams and add to that that ferrothorn isn't easy to wear down and can't be pursuit trapped or any other conventional means of wearing down bulkymons.

heracross is honestly the only of the 3 megas i can see in a+ only because it fucks stall hard with sd + 3 attacks while also fucking balance AND not being worthless vs offense. some obscure checks have been coming up like acro gliscor but that only serves to cement its dominance.

gardevoir also threatens offense since it can switch into keldeo and is fast and decently specially bulky but it has the issue of being incredibly easy to revenge kill by anything named talonflame / garchomp / any scarf physical attacker like excadrill, and lando-t. it also loses to jirachi which is becoming p popular. i see it fitting with the a rank mons.

i guess not being able to run one of the three megas makes venusaur inherently "worse" and with sand everywhere and hp flying thundurus everywhere meaning it cant decently check that anymore i think a is a good fit because it can still consistently check things like azumarill / breloom.

ferrothorn is the most amazing pokemon at the moment like it was in pre-mega gyarados meta when masterclasses team came out because it walls gyara, non hp fire gren, non hp fire lati, also like 326813 other things while also forming one of the most solid and difficult to wear down cores with alomomola and gliscor. a+ definitely. only issue is that it may need to drop with everything starting to run fire coverage.

sometimes i run hippowdon on sand offense over tyranitar if only because i like the extra bulk to cover certain threats like opposing excadrill. that being said, it is absolutely way too passive for the balance teams it fits on. it's very comparable to skarmory, thus, the same rank seems optimal.

the defensive landorus-t set isnt what warrants moving it up but the fact that the scarf set is so good right now (and even that the defensive set can bluff scarf) just makes landorus-t such a god. now i said before i didnt want it to rise since it gets worn down super quickly checking the things it needs to check but since the scarf set is so good but it still keeps heaps of the merit of the defensive sets (intimidate, one time m-hera check, still checks heaps of pokemon that trouble offense like exca) i definitely think that a+ is the rank for landorus-t right now.

i dont know what merits suicune rising at the moment as there doesn't appear to be anything different in this meta than the last meta (except MAYBE mega venu usage going down o_O)???

raikou with an assault vest is obviously a decent check to thundurus and even greninja in a pinch and according to tesung cm volt switch is nice but ive been using cm raikou and av raikou and even specskou for ages and i always found them way too weak and lose so much momentum vs the sand that is everywhere so idk.

i do like mega manectric though mainly because excadrill isn't a safe switch into it thanks to fthrower / overheat even though ttar is a bitch so it is still troubled by sand but definitely not as much as raikou is so this has to be at least 1-2 ranks above it. manectric is still very decent against offense teams and while it is rather easy to deal with on stall teams, at least it can scratch ferrothorn (unlike raikou).

mega aerodactyl is very good in this metagame and i really think it should move up to b+. the stallbreaker set with taunt + roost obviously troubles stall, as taunt + roost is a super potent combination. when invested with bulk it is a superb birdspam check that can't be trapped by magnezone. the offensive set is the most common set and it outspeeds almost the entire metagame while also having impressive coverage to threaten offense, sort of like greninja. with great coverage options such as eq, sedge, aerial ace, fire fang, ice fang, and aqua tail, this is something rising in popularity that should move up.

barely anyone uses regular scizor anymore and the only set anyone uses is CB. i guess it's somewhat decent vs sand teams but with things like latios and greninja running hp fire all the time it kind of loses most of its defensive merit of being able to take hits in a pinch and fire off a stab cb u-turn. yeah this thing should move down but i honestly think even b rank might be too high. the thing is, the main appeal of regular scizor over mega scizor is the fact that you have a super powerful priority but you sacrifice a large amount of bulk which i would always prefer in order to take on azumarill or bisharp much better.

manaphy is totally b+ it is so incomparable to the pokemon in a- i dont even.

mega alakazam is really good at the moment; its high speed as well as trace makes it a pretty much unparalleled revenge killer. its high special attack and stab psychic typing as well as movepool lets it revenge kill a miscellany of popular pokemon including keldeo, greninja, landorus, sand rush excadrill, swift swim pokemon in rain, +1 mega gyarados / tyranitar, lati@s, terrakion, garchomp, gengar, even adamant scarf landorus-t. it can run taunt or encore instead of hp ice to take on stall teams better. it can move up a rank.

lucario is a mediocre sweeper that in theory should benefit from the lack of aegislash, but it really doesn't. it wants 5 moveslots (sd / cc / itail / ipunch / espeed), hates the fact that srush exca is everywhere, hates the fact that slowbro is everywhere, hates the fact that terrakion is everywhere, hates the fact that scarf landorus-t is everywhere, in general a mediocre choice in the metagame because it loses to so many common pokemon and isn't even that strong after a boost, lol.

starmie should also move up to b+ because it's honestly a really good pokemon at the moment. now that aegislash is gone it is definitely a really great spinner; analytic boosted attacks are very hard to switch into for any ghost type not named something like gourgeist-xl which is a really bad pokemon lol. the defensive sets are a valuable asset on stall, especially stalls that rely on tspikes or really like to keep hazards up. it also has very large offensive presence for a bulky pokemon and recover + natural cure makes it pretty hard to wear down. reflect type is obviously really cool as well for pursuit pokemon or ferrothorn's leech seed and the like.

with aegislash gone celebi is sooo goood. like it can do so much stuff it's just really cool. defensive sets, offensive sets, support sets like sd and nasty pass, all complemented by celebi's insanely large movepool. nasty plot celebi in itself is really cool for its ability to setup on things like landorus and keldeo which it checks thanks to its stats / typing, and with recover you can't be worn down, espeically with natural cure mitigating toxic. i mean this thing can do anything, when going defensive to hard counter lando and keldeo you can stop them with toxic / twave, you can halt crocune with perish song. b+ rank in my opinion.

i agree with crashinboombang that staraptor should definitely move up to b rank if victini and magnezone get to b+ rank since it definitely just seems one rank below them. with no aegislash it doesn't have to worry about having its stabs + coverage walled and it can proceed to just break through everything. it is a huge problem for balance since it often lacks sufficient bulk or something like skarmory or the speed to get it so it can just use its amazing power and decent speed to break down bulkymons easily. band is obviously the most threatening set against balance but scarf is far better than offense, and can ohko heracross gardevoir and medicham while being faster. it is unfortunately very temporary, as it dies very early on with recoil + stealth rock, but it can definitely fuck up teams in the process so i think b rank is definitely there for it if victini and zone can move to b+.

as for victini you can obviously tell i want it in b+ rank because it's a very valuable asset on stall teams while also having a 180 base power move which is denting "switch ins" not named slowbro / suicune. it has a diverse movepool with bolt strike and even uturn to trouble the aforementioned water-types and a (suprisingly!) superb typing to check all three of the megas (emphasis on check; it isnt switching into hera rock blasts but it can wow it if it gets in on cc or simply vcreate). also substitute + power up punch is cool! with sub you avoid sucker punch and being toxiced from bulky water-types, while power up punch allows you to actually damage heatran and tyranitar, giving you a boost behind a substitute which you setup while they switch out. vcreate is obviously super strong especially at +1 and bolt strike hits slowbro / suicune / other miscellaneous bulky waters.

magnezone should also be b+ since it provides a ton of support to the best sweepers / wallbreakers at the moment (especially mega pinsir and other bird teams but also things like mega gardevoir that appreciate mega scizor gone). both scarf and specs are great, with scarf being able to check pinsir thanks to its 4x flying resistance and stab volt switch coming off an overlooked but high special attack stat that at worst provides free momentum. specs is less efficient at checking things but hits much harder with volt switch and is still amazing at trapping slower steels like ferrothorn that require a more powerful hp fire to take them out.

i've always been of the impression that mega garchomp isn't that good, it's slow and easy to wear down and while it hits hard (with sand support) it faces HUGE competition with the much better stallbreaking mega pokemon that are everywhere and are faster and stronger with more spammable stab moves. moving this down a rank seems definitely warranted.

i also think haxorus can move up a hefty amount since it's actually not a bad sweeper with swords dance against balance teams and even stall teams, with poison jab for clefable which hits at +2 thanks to mold breaker. it breaks down mega gyarados's checks and counters like ferrothorn which doesn't want to take +2 earthquake's coming off base 147 attack stats. i think it could actually rise quite a bit especially since it is also very nice on magnezone teams in order to just use outrage all the time.

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three pokemon have appeared to come up relevant to the s rankings, landorus and keldeo moving down, and clefable moving up. i cant honestly see clefable in s rank at all. no one is denying it is one of the greatest assets on balance teams with tools such as heal bell and the cm magic guard sets, but it isn't comparable to any of the pokemon in s rank or even some in a+ rank when talking about the relevancy of its niche and how effective it is in the current metagame.

landorus should still be s rank, its honestly just an amazing pokemon primarily as the offensive stealth rock set is just amazing and his insane power and coverage for a stealth rock setter. it has a HUGE offensive presence which makes setting up stealth rock super easy and it beats almost all of the hazard removers (epower exca, fblast balloon exca, fblast mandi, fblast skarm) while only possibly losing 1v1 to starmie and lati@s. its an insanely common pokemon for this reason, people only think about moving it down because they thing that stall now has ways around it but its still insanely threatening to balance and even the stalls that supposedly have answers to it like spdef gliscor or cbbnite or whatever end up losing to things like hidden power ice on 4 atks sets which is becoming common now since spdef gliscor is everywhere. it's still pretty comparable to most of the pokemon in s rank in terms of how well it performs its role, the relevancy of that role, and the efficiency in which it can prevent normal counters from stopping it performing its role. its also an offensive switch in to mega heracross once which is super amazing in this heracross metagame.

i probably will talk about keldeo later since i was a proponent of it to s rank in the mawile meta but i think that may have changed so yeah.
 
can we please stop talking about celebi. Yes other things beat the things it beats, but not all in one package. No pokemon can claim to beat keldeo, landorus, thundurs (most sets), rotom wash, azumarill (only 1 v 1) and to be able to lay rocks, as well as having nasty plot sets, nasty pass and sub pass. Its deserving of B-, now lets cover more important stuff.

Also posting TRC's post on celebi because it probably got lost in all his post ;_; (though I don't think celebi should be any higher than B if that)

with aegislash gone celebi is sooo goood. like it can do so much stuff it's just really cool. defensive sets, offensive sets, support sets like sd and nasty pass, all complemented by celebi's insanely large movepool. nasty plot celebi in itself is really cool for its ability to setup on things like landorus and keldeo which it checks thanks to its stats / typing, and with recover you can't be worn down, espeically with natural cure mitigating toxic. i mean this thing can do anything, when going defensive to hard counter lando and keldeo you can stop them with toxic / twave, you can halt crocune with perish song. b+ rank in my opinion.
 
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You're right, I am assuming that every competent team has atleast two excadrill checks because that's just how prevalent and common sand rush exca is. I dunno why you think of Talonflame when I say excadrill check, but there are PLENTY of other checks to it than lando/rotom/quag/loom lol.
Lando-T
Rotom-W
Breloom
Azumarill
Quagsire
Defensive Mega Venu
Air Balloon Heatran
Slowbro
Defensive Mega Scizor
Defensive Zapdos
Mandibuzz
Skarmory
Landorus
Keldeo
Balloon Magnezone (Which can follow up with magnet rise to trap you)
Ferrothorn
Opposing Air Balloon Excadrill
Gliscor
Conkeldurr
Gyarados
Defensive Amoonguss
Chesnaught
Cresselia
Mega Heracross
Defensive Hippowdon
Alomomola
Suicune
Politoed
Celebi
Sableye

In a meta where exca drill is on 80% of HO teams yeah, I don't think its too unreasonable to pack atleast two of these mons on your team. I don't think its too unreasonable to think that a skilled player will keep atleast one of them healthy enough to take you on late-game either. Or at the very least not give an opportunity for excadrill to set up, and considering its hit super effectively by 60% of the meta and 2hko'd by neutral STABs from another 30%, that's really not too hard either.
*sigh* okay, venu fails to ko, and dies to +2 EQ after rocks and one turn of sand, slowbro does too. Exca can actually setup on m-scizor and 2hko it with EQ, where sicizor fail to 3hko. Zapdos dies to plus 2 after rocks
Keldeo and lando are barely even cheks... The thing is, in many cases you either get a kill, or sd on the switch. And a lot of you so called checks either can't take a plus 2 hit, or is beat 1v1 such as ferro...


0 Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 149-176
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Scizor:
+2 252+ Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Scizor: 210-247
+2 252+ Atk Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 320-378 (83.3 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
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