Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

[Celticpride]

Victini: B+ ---> A-: I was always skeptical about Victini, but after trying it out it should move up. SubPuP is really effective. Power-up Punch and a strong one-two punch makes up for the somewhat low base Attack. It also has good typing that, SR weakness aside, allows it to check some very hard to handle threats (Mega Medi and Mega Gard being the most prominent of those). The only downside is that SubPuP sometimes has issues finding a place to set up a Sub, but once it does look out. It's one of those things that if you don't have a plan to handle it, it will wreck you pretty badly. Stalltini also has it's uses for checking things, but I'm less familiar with that set.

Jirachi: B+ ---> A-: Really easy to fit onto a team. U-Turn is great for the momentum and chip damage. Rocks, Healing Wish, regular Wish and T-Wave allow it to support a lot of things. It can also run a Scarf set with U-Turn and a fast Healing Wish to decent effect. The hax shenanigans are also annoying af, but we already knew that.

Tangrowth: C ---> C+: Tangrowth can be very hard to take down if you don't have a strong STAB Super-Effective attack. The AV set handles Sand offense similarly to Chesnaught while also sporting decent special bulk. It's like Chesnaught and Slowking had some kind of weird love child. Also, there's a set in the damage calculator called alexwolf's waifu. Felt that needed to be thrown out there.

With regards to the Weather sweepers moving up, I don't think any of them should move past B+. The only three things that rely on Weather in the A or S ranks are Char-Y, Excadrill and Manaphy. Char-Y and Manaphy set weather themselves, so their reliance on it matters less than Kabutops and Kingdra. Excadrill is A+ because of weather, but even without that, strong attack, good defensive typing, Mold Breaker, spinning, Rocks and a decent attacking movepool make it at least an A- threat without Sand Rush. Without Sand Rush Exca is still a decently viable OU Pokemon, without Swift Swim Kabutops and Omastar are NU.

 

[koista12]

Excadrill is A+ because of weather, but even without that, strong attack, good defensive typing, Mold Breaker, spinning, Rocks and a decent attacking movepool make it at least an A- threat without Sand Rush. Without Sand Rush Exca is still a decently viable OU Pokemon, without Swift Swim Kabutops and Omastar are NU.

Without Gale Wings, Smogon bird would be NU. Luckily, we rank Talonflame, and Omastar and Kabutops, while taking their abilities into mind. And last time I checked, we werent proposing the Swift Swimmers to be the same rank as Excadrill, only to be raised one rank.

 

[Celticpride]

Without Gale Wings, Smogon bird would be NU. Luckily, we rank Talonflame, and Omastar and Kabutops, while taking their abilities into mind. And last time I checked, we werent proposing the Swift Swimmers to be the same rank as Excadrill, only to be raised one rank.

I'm saying that weather sweepers shouldn't move past B+ because they require too much support. Excadrill is a weather sweeper, but he has uses outside of weather teams, while none of the others have uses outside dedicated weather teams. Mold Breaker ScarfDrill, while not as good as Sand Rush Exca, is still an A- Rank set if the primitive beginnings of the Viability of Sets thread is any indication.

Edit: Also, my comment has less to do with ranking outside of abilities (which is stupid) and more to do with ranking them based on how much they rely on their support, and how well they can function outside of it.

 

[AM]

Victini: B+ ---> A-

This got a lot of support, with SubPuP getting more common and everything, which functions a lot like Sub Kyu-B did at one point, taking advantage of common defensive Pokemon and pivots to set up a Sub and start breaking team in half. However, not many people discussed about it and a few of the people i talked with dsiagreed, due to Victinit's plethora of weaknesses, SR weakness, and Pursuit weakness.

Jirachi: B+ ---> A-

While a case could certainly be made for Jirachi rising, it's still a bit underused and not as common as it should be, which means that the metagame hasn't yet adapted to deal with it. Once this happens, and if Jirachi is still as effective, i will move it up.

Weavile: B- ---> B

Some wanted this to happen, some didn't. Dicuss more.

Mega Houndoom: C+ ---> B-

Vertex proposed this iirc and he got a lot of likes, so let's see what you guys think.

Kyurem-B: A- ---> B+

Same as Weavile.

Togekiss: C+ ---> B-

Are offensive Nasty Plot and defensive NastyPass sets good enough to justify this raise?

Tangrowth: C ---> C+

Albacore and ben gay want this, so let's see some more opinions.

Crawdaunt: C+ ---> B-

Breaks defensive cores in half while not being useless against offense.


New changes for discussion (entirely new changes or recently proposed changes that haven't received any significant support or opposition)

Venomoth: C- ---> D / Unranked (outclassed by other SmashPass users, mainly Smeargle and Gorebyss)
Amoonguss: A- ---> B+ (being too easy to take advantage of after putting something to Sleep)
Rain sweepers for a one sub-rank raise (rain teams being more viable and all)
Gastrodon: C ---> C+ (Rain is becoming more common, and this guys check it really well)

Related stuff.

Rank Postings

B+ > B+ Ok so now like the only reason this would even remotely go up is due to the SubPuP set. Choice Items are mediocre, the mixed lure set is sort of ass if I'm going to be completely honest, and the only other relevant set imo is the stallbreaker set, which is what bumped it up to B+ in the first place. It's ok in TR too I guess but TR isn't necessarily the biggest criteria when it comes to the viability of OU because it's generally a rare archetype that is used. I think the SubPup set is ok but the fact that it's becoming more and more common is not really a good thing for Victini, since people have become more aware. Once the sub goes out for whatever reason it's prone to heavy hits on offense due to its Base 100 speed tier which isn't slow, but isn't lightning fast either. All things considered I don't really think it should move up for the weaknesses that alexwolf mentioned at the end of his statement as well.

B+ > B+/A- Alright so on top of the general usefulness of what Jirachi has to offer, my main concern is that it doesn't necessarily do anything absolutely crazy. It walls a couple of very significant things like the Latis and Garde but still has issues with a lot of general stuff you see everyday. I personally think one of its best sets is the SubToxic one as for the most part it can dismantle a lot of efficient cores and provides great utility for the team. The other sets I personally think aren't even that great and as such Jirachis best roles come in the form of support and not necessarily offense. I personally think it should be B+ but looking at the A- rank right now I wouldn't really care if it went up since it is better than some things up there.

B- > B- So this isn't a big reiteration like before because I've been using this a lot more. Now I think I underrated the thing a bit maybe cause I never saw it put in work (like where a guy said gg early and I swept with Weavile and he got quiet). My main issue is everytime I used this thing, I had to rely on a terrible matchup against Weavile to actually pull it off in most cases. Ok yeah it's "anti-meta" but with all things considered, some of the meta game trends I've been seeing haven't been too great on it. It only excels at picking off generally much more frail teams and then kind of just loses to a lot of relevant stuff in the tier. I look at it as a B- mon because just like the other mons in that rank, they need a significant amount of support to excel at their role but it's not necessarily all bad.

C+ > B- This thing is underrated ridiculously. One of the great things about M-Houndoom is that you can generally prepare for it with basic checks, but in reality you'll never be able to cover or mitigate the tools it has at its disposable. NP sweeper? You got it. Stallbreaker? Not a problem at all. Something annoying you that lacks relevant priority? Destiny Bond. Hell if you really need that priority for whatever reason it's got STAB Sucker Punch to help with that too. Let's not forget that it basically says gg to a bunch of psychic types in the tier. Definitely B- material imo.

B+ > A- Ok I would really like to see this moved up. AV Torn is just so good right now and if we're going off the fact of rains increased viability, Torn-T can be considered part of that as it is commonly found on rain builds as a pivot and answer to grass types. I guess it's more about how the current metagame trends have generally shifted towards Torn-Ts favor as it doesn't have to necessarily break stall now a days due to a decrease in general usage of that archetype. Even if necessary it has the option to run a LO set + Taunt to pull that off if the team is in need of one. I personally think Torn-T has gotten better and as such should move up.

Rain Sweepers Move up a rank They've gotten better, simple as that. So many archetypes absolutely hate facing rain teams. They provide consistent wallbreaking and sweeping utility to just dismantles plenty of stuff that realistically can't keep up with the pressure. A well built rain team or one with rain offense will for the most part, have a much more viable and improved matchup against a majority of the tier. Move up please.

Edit: Except for Seismitoad as Sergeant Spooky pointed out. That thing isn't worth a team slot on rain.

C+ > B- Ok so this thing is kind of stupid to face against honestly. As mentioned, pretty much tramples anything slower than it. You basically need something like Azumarill, Keldeo or Chesnaught to actually go toe to toe with this thing. Even then the slower guys don't like taking +2 hits from it at all. Bulky offense has a better matchup against it but HO pretty much can say gg to it when it's at +2 Aqua jetting stuff left and right. B- is fine and no higher though cause it's not exactly the easiest thing to fit on a team at times and it's longevity is based on taking out some key threats beforehand so it does need a decent amount of support.

Might comment on Crawdaunt later as well. That thing has a stupid amount of power it's ridiculous.

 

[MilkyWay]

Coming from somone who plays rain a lot, moving up all swift swimmers in general might not be the best idea despite rain getting more viable. Like others above me said, Seismitoad should stay in D. Its only useful niche is taking on Thundurus. Ludicolo is much better than Seismitoad period. Grass stab, focus blast, decent offenses, and not stacking water weaknesses is pretty cool. I could see a rise to C although ill admit i havent used it in a while. I think Omastar should stay B-. It either stacks weaknesses with Kabutops or faces heavy competition with Kingdra. It's too slow to be used as the only swift simmer so youre gonna need another. Sure, its powerful, but I just dont see it on the sake level as some B mons. Kingdra should definitely rise to B+. Its fast, powerful, sorta bulky, doesnt stack water weaknesses, and has great dual stab. Kabutops could go up, its better than Kingdra but im not so sure if its as good as the rest of A-. I think we should wait before moving it up and see what happens with the metagame.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

Plenty of skilled players have agreed with this, but I think Thundurus T should move up to C+.
I understand that ranking up something is dependent on the argument, so i will split it into some categories.

Thundurus T: Move to C+

Does it fit in the meta?

It fits in the meta as a Volt Absorber. Basically Revenge kills non scarfed Lando T and I, which are both threats to the meta. It has good coverage to take out pokemon like Gyarados, Charizard Y, Heracross (if you run Phychic) Azumarill, even Thundurus I. Why is this so good? Well, it hurts a lot of the meta if its scarfed. KO's Keldeo with Volt Switch, HP Ice KO's both Lando's, KO's Azu with TBolt (most likely) basically the only thing it has trouble with in S rank is Char X.
The amount of Pokemon it Revenge Kills/Counters/Checks in S-A rank.

S:

Keldeo
Azumarill
Thundurus I(Thundurus might need to be a little low on health)

A+:

Charizard Y
Greninja (Thundurus T needs to be scarfed, which i think is the most viable set)
Mega Gyarados
Mega Heracross
Landorus T
Landorus I
Mega Pinsir (This is a big deal, but it also needs to be scarfed)
Talonflame (Again, scarf. It takes 35% from Brave Bird)

A:

DNite (Im a little ehh on this...)
Garchomp (unless Chomp is scarfed, it KO's with HP Ice. Its all about the set.)
Gengar (out speeds with scarf and does 90% on TBolt)
Gliscor

A-:

Aerodactyl (Scarfed, Ko's with TBolt)
Gyarados
Manaphy
Politoed
Skarmory

I just explained 20 pokemon that get checked/revenge killed/countered by a C rank pokemon. That itself should bring it to C+.
Notice most of these pokemons are quite important in the meta and struggle to stop a "subpar" pokemon like Thundurus T.

Ill add more soon
Cause i have no time

 

[Albacore]

I think this has been brought up before but wasn't addressed in the past update, but any thoughts on moving Starmie to A- ? I haven't really used the offensive set much, but the bulky spinner set is just a huge asset for defensive teams, removing rocks off the field more reliably than anything else in the tier. Thanks to its speed, typing, and Natural Cure, it gets many opportunities to spin against both offensive and defensive teams. It speed lets it threaten offensive rock setters like Terrakion, Mamoswine, and Landorus-I. It has little trouble with defensive ones either (can't switch into Ferrothorn's Power Whip but beats it if it switches into anything else). Natural Cure enables it to very easily come in against common stuff like Keldeo, Heatran, and Slowbro (Grass Knot doesn't 2HKO) without running the risk of getting worn down/disabled by paralysis. Its role of removing rocks and beating opposing rock setters may seem limited, but it's a very important role and it excels at it, and given that every team has a SR setter, it's always going to come in handy. It also holds the great advantage of a fast Recover, which extends your longevity by a ridiculous amount and really makes up for its rather lacklustre natural bulk. A fast Spin is also amazing since it pretty much guarantees you'll get a spin off even against the most offensive of teams.

One thing which does go against it is the slight rise in popularity of Gengar which pretty much ruins it, and that's really the one thing that stops me from being certain it deserves A-, but it's still never disappointed me as a spinner. Against defensive teams it can always find an opportunity to come in, against offensive teams it can't switch in quite as often but usually outlives the opposing rock setter regardless, which in the end is all it really needs to do. With the exception on losing to Gengar, it's a very reliable Pokemon, and reliability is exactly what you want on Stall, especially nowadays. Again, can't speak for the offensive set, but I feel like the defensive set is good enough for Starmie to merit some more discussion.

Also agreeing with Torn-T and Crawdaunt rising.
Torn-T is a pretty good Pokemon on stall given its ability to kinda deal with some dangerous stuff. Its high speed is a good safety measure against the likes of MHera and MMedi which is obviously can't switch into but can check in case something goes wrong. It's slightly eclipsed by Talonflame in that specific role but doesn't require quite as much support since it doesn't really care about rocks. Also, unlike Talonflame it can actually beat Landorus without having to indulge into stupid 50/50s with Roost and Earth Power. I really feel like having at least one fast Pokemon is pretty important for Stall to function well nowadays, and Torn-T fits that role very well.
Crawdaunt is absolutely terrifying for stall teams, especially Doublade-based ones. Yeah, it's really hard to fit on teams especially when Azumarill exists but it hits like an absolute truck and Aqua Jet still lends him some use against offensive teams.

 

[Gloating]

Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Alakazam aren't as good as the other pokermon in A- tier... js

Care to explain?

And Starmie should stay B. Faces competition from the likes of Defoggers and other Rapid Spinners. LO 3 attacks is pretty good but A- is a bit much for Starmie in my opinion but even then I'd rather use Greninja as it's faster and more powerful. The defensive set never worked for me but maybe that's because I'm more of an offensive oriented player. I don't think hazards are that big of a deal since Spikes/T-spikes are rare and SR is only really trouble some if you have a 4x weak Pokemon to it or multiple 2x weak Pokemon but the niche for Starmie ends there.

Merkur_Lampe Yeah I know lol. I meant B as whole not the actual B rank.

 

[Merkur_Lampe]

Care to explain?

And Starmie should stay B. Faces competition from the likes of Defoggers and other Rapid Spinners. LO 3 attacks is pretty good but A- is a bit much for Starmie in my opinion but even then I'd rather use Greninja as it's faster and more powerful. The defensive set never worked for me but maybe that's because I'm more of an offensive oriented player. I don't think hazards are that big of a deal since Spikes/T-spikes are rare and SR is only really trouble some if you have a 4x weak Pokemon to it or multiple 2x weak Pokemon but the niche for Starmie ends there.

It's actually at B+..
Its offensive set is outclassed by Greninja, which is why the offensive set shouldn't be used without a Rapid Spin. Spinning with a Life Orb without being resistant to rocks is not very good, either. But if Starmie rises, the reason should be the defensive set. That way it will have its niche as a bulky spinner that does not take a mega slot, which there are little to none in the tier.
Starmie @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 24 Def / 4 SpA / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Ice Beam / Psyshock / Reflect Type (Thank you Albacore)
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
This is suited for defensive teams that need a bulky spinner. It might not be A- worthy, but enough to stay at B+.

 

[jbtc10]

Thundy-T has a different role than Thundy-I though. Thundy-I can't pivot into electric attacks, it can't double dance, it can't viably run a scarf set and it doesn't hit as hard. I is definitely the better mon overall because stopping sweepers and being an offensive threat in one slot is extremely helpful, but T is not outclassed by it because they're simply not trying to do the same thing, and the opportunity cost isn't usually a problem either because you're only going to use it if you don't need prankster T-Wave support anyway. Not saying T should move up (because it's current ranking is pretty fine for it), just that the reasons for why it shouldn't aren't particularly good atm.

As for Starmie moving up to A- for the bulky spinner set, I have to disagree. It has 2 main problems, the first being that it has poor defensive stats which makes its life pretty difficult at times, often having to sacrifice itself just to get off a spin, which isn't ideal for bulky/stall teams who need to be able to do this reliably over the course of a whole match. The second is that it can't even do its job against pretty much any spinblocker (assuming you're not running Psyshock for Gengar, which most seem not to). Ghosts in general seem to have risen in popularity lately in order to protect hazards from the increased popularity of Rapid Spin and allow hazard stacking of your own. Anything like Sableye, Jellicent, Gourgeist and even Gengar can pretty much spell the end for Bulky Starmie and can end up putting your team in a pretty terrible position. It actually faces compelling competition from M-Blastoise, who has bulk oozing out of him, hits like a train, and has no problems with any spinblockers.

This brings me to my next point, which is M-Blastioise. Some have been saying this needs to drop further, but I couldn't disagree more. M-Blastoise is super legit. Give him Wish support with defensive investment and he's a total menace that enables hazard stacking like no other. He also counters Crawdaunt because he takes little from Knock Off and resists Crabhammer. I'd actually like this to move back up to C+ because he's definitely better than many things in both his current rank and the one above. Couple of replays showing how valuable Blastoise can be with Wish support and how he basically enables bulky hazard stacking;

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-167655771
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-167982843

Finally, I'm glad Jellicent got ranked because pretty much all bulky ghosts have a really nice niche now, especially one that hard counters the ever loving crap out of any Keldeo and a bunch of other annoying things like CroCune and RD + CM Manaphy. A few people have said it should be de-ranked, but no way in hell should we do that. It makes D rank proud. I have a replay here of Jellicent saving the day, and although it sometimes wishes it had slightly better physical bulk (it still avoids the 2HKO from Excadrill's EQ which is nice), it's a pretty useful mon to be honest: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-167652814

 

[WideTomato]

Just going to quickly come with my opinion on Venomoth. First, it is not outclassed by smeargle, as it's higher bulk, better speed and significantly stronger ability is enough to justify using it on a team. Actually I would never even consider smeargle as a quilverpasser over Venomoth. And while you may argue that smash- and geopass is better, I would still say that the defensive boost a free item of choice is enough reason to use quilverdance over those other two.

Venomoth can also find a lot mare setup oputinities than smeargle as it is not relying on a sash, which is broken by any kind of hazard, sand and hail. Other than that it have better defensive typing, allowing it to easily set up on choice locked keldeo, Thundurus, choice locked heatran and a lot more. It's ability also makes it able to get up a dance or sub through prankster taunt or twave.

Venomoth: stay in C-

 

[Immortal]

I think this has been brought up before but wasn't addressed in the past update, but any thoughts on moving Starmie to A- ? I haven't really used the offensive set much, but the bulky spinner set is just a huge asset for defensive teams, removing rocks off the field more reliably than anything else in the tier. Thanks to its speed, typing, and Natural Cure, it gets many opportunities to spin against both offensive and defensive teams. It speed lets it threaten offensive rock setters like Terrakion, Mamoswine, and Landorus-I. It has little trouble with defensive ones either (can't switch into Ferrothorn's Power Whip but beats it if it switches into anything else). Natural Cure enables it to very easily come in against common stuff like Keldeo, Heatran, and Slowbro (Grass Knot doesn't 2HKO) without running the risk of getting worn down/disabled by paralysis. Its role of removing rocks and beating opposing rock setters may seem limited, but it's a very important role and it excels at it, and given that every team has a SR setter, it's always going to come in handy. It also holds the great advantage of a fast Recover, which extends your longevity by a ridiculous amount and really makes up for its rather lacklustre natural bulk. A fast Spin is also amazing since it pretty much guarantees you'll get a spin off even against the most offensive of teams.

One thing which does go against it is the slight rise in popularity of Gengar which pretty much ruins it, and that's really the one thing that stops me from being certain it deserves A-, but it's still never disappointed me as a spinner. Against defensive teams it can always find an opportunity to come in, against offensive teams it can't switch in quite as often but usually outlives the opposing rock setter regardless, which in the end is all it really needs to do. With the exception on losing to Gengar, it's a very reliable Pokemon, and reliability is exactly what you want on Stall, especially nowadays. Again, can't speak for the offensive set, but I feel like the defensive set is good enough for Starmie to merit some more discussion.

Also agreeing with Torn-T and Crawdaunt rising.
Torn-T is a pretty good Pokemon on stall given its ability to kinda deal with some dangerous stuff. Its high speed is a good safety measure against the likes of MHera and MMedi which is obviously can't switch into but can check in case something goes wrong. It's slightly eclipsed by Talonflame in that specific role but doesn't require quite as much support since it doesn't really care about rocks. Also, unlike Talonflame it can actually beat Landorus without having to indulge into stupid 50/50s with Roost and Earth Power. I really feel like having at least one fast Pokemon is pretty important for Stall to function well nowadays, and Torn-T fits that role very well.
Crawdaunt is absolutely terrifying for stall teams, especially Doublade-based ones. Yeah, it's really hard to fit on teams especially when Azumarill exists but it hits like an absolute truck and Aqua Jet still lends him some use against offensive teams.

Wait why does the popularity of gengar go against it? Even Starmie's defensive set (only 4 spa EVs) outspeeds gengar and gets the guaranteed OHKO on gengar with psyshock after SR. Also note that this calc was done using the utility attacker gengar set which has 28 evs in hp. If gengar puts 252 evs in speed and special attack then starmie can OHKO even without rocks. I mean starmie can't switch in to gengar which isn't a huge deal but gengar really can't stop either of stamie's sets from spinning because if it switches in to spinblock they can both just KO it the next turn.

 

[Worthlessnoob]

Thundy-T has a different role than Thundy-I though. Thundy-I can't pivot into electric attacks, it can't double dance, it can't viably run a scarf set and it doesn't hit as hard. I is definitely the better mon overall because stopping sweepers and being an offensive threat in one slot is extremely helpful, but T is not outclassed by it because they're simply not trying to do the same thing, and the opportunity cost isn't usually a problem either because you're only going to use it if you don't need prankster T-Wave support anyway. Not saying T should move up (because it's current ranking is pretty fine for it), just that the reasons for why it shouldn't aren't particularly good atm.

As for Starmie moving up to A- for the bulky spinner set, I have to disagree. It has 2 main problems, the first being that it has poor defensive stats which makes its life pretty difficult at times, often having to sacrifice itself just to get off a spin, which isn't ideal for bulky/stall teams who need to be able to do this reliably over the course of a whole match. The second is that it can't even do its job against pretty much any spinblocker (assuming you're not running Psyshock for Gengar, which most seem not to). Ghosts in general seem to have risen in popularity lately in order to protect hazards from the increased popularity of Rapid Spin and allow hazard stacking of your own. Anything like Sableye, Jellicent, Gourgeist and even Gengar can pretty much spell the end for Bulky Starmie and can end up putting your team in a pretty terrible position. It actually faces compelling competition from M-Blastoise, who has bulk oozing out of him, hits like a train, and has no problems with any spinblockers.

This brings me to my next point, which is M-Blastioise. Some have been saying this needs to drop further, but I couldn't disagree more. M-Blastoise is super legit. Give him Wish support with defensive investment and he's a total menace that enables hazard stacking like no other. He also counters Crawdaunt because he takes little from Knock Off and resists Crabhammer. I'd actually like this to move back up to C+ because he's definitely better than many things in both his current rank and the one above. Couple of replays showing how valuable Blastoise can be with Wish support and how he basically enables bulky hazard stacking;

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-167655771
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-167982843

I like innovation and the like, but Blastoise is miles worse than Bulky Starmie. Starmie with HP investment isn't frail, though it isn't Bulky, and doesn't have to sacrifice itself to spin. That doesn't really make sense when Stamie should be spinning on things that can't touch it and there are way more things it can spin on due to reflect type. This includes Ferrothorn and Tyranitar mind you, two common Rocks setters.

Second of all, Blastoise should not rise. It's a bad mon. Bad might not be the right word, but it's something with lots of opportunity cost. A Mega Spinner with no reliable recovery isn't something people are looking for anyway. In fact, I'd say Blastoise has a much harder time spinning than Starmie. You call Starmie frail, but Blastoise might as well be frailer considering how it can't outspeed anything and takes a load of damage before hitting back or spinning them while sapping away your momentum if you switch out. Most of the time it's going to get OHKO'd by a strong hitter because of all the residual damage resulting from no Leftovers and reliable recovery. Starmie can at the very least fish for a burn on powerful physical attackers before they hit it or use their typing against them because it's so fast. Mega Blastoise is just a niche mon.

That being said, Starmie is a very viable spinner. People can compare it to Excadrill, but unlike Excadrill, Starmie has the recovery to run bulk and is much more consistent outside of sand. Excadrill can run Scarf, but that set hates being locked into any of its moves, especially Rapid Spin. Starmie also has much better matchup against Rockers like Lando. You can't compare it to Latios either when Starmie dodges Pursuit with Reflect Type. The closest thing it is like is Latias which also has Reflect Type, but Latias is a defogger and not a spinner so it will be clearing your hazards too. Starmie also has Scald to cripple physical attackers and Natural Cure to mitigate the effect of status on it. I think that's enough of a difference with other Hazard Removers to move it up to A- especially because Starmie is surprisingly consistent with removing hazards and checks certain mons with it's water typing.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

Thundy-T has a different role than Thundy-I though. Thundy-I can't pivot into electric attacks, it can't double dance, it can't viably run a scarf set and it doesn't hit as hard. I is definitely the better mon overall because stopping sweepers and being an offensive threat in one slot is extremely helpful, but T is not outclassed by it because they're simply not trying to do the same thing, and the opportunity cost isn't usually a problem either because you're only going to use it if you don't need prankster T-Wave support anyway. Not saying T should move up (because it's current ranking is pretty fine for it), just that the reasons for why it shouldn't aren't particularly good atm.

I don't think it should be in a place where things like Smeargle (who is only viable as a Geopasser and a hazard setter, other than that its complete shit) Porygon2,MAggron,MAbsol,MBlastoise,Alakazam, etc.
Thundy T is meant to be a sweeper, and to switch into obvious Volt Switches and TWaves. As I said, it Revenge Kills/Counters/Checks 20 S and A rank pokemon. Thats a lot.
It is underestimated, underrated, and not outclassed. It has plenty of room for versatility with Volt Switch, TBolt, HP Ice, and a filler. Seriously, its not ass at all, sure its frail but it usually Volt Switches out or KO's with its 145 SpA.
I think this should move it up to C+.

 

[Albacore]

Wait why does the popularity of gengar go against it? Even Starmie's defensive set (only 4 spa EVs) outspeeds gengar and gets the guaranteed OHKO on gengar with psyshock after SR. Also note that this calc was done using the utility attacker gengar set which has 28 evs in hp. If gengar puts 252 evs in speed and special attack then starmie can OHKO even without rocks. I mean starmie can't switch in to gengar which isn't a huge deal but gengar really can't stop either of stamie's sets from spinning because if it switches in to spinblock they can both just KO it the next turn.

Defensive Starmie doesn't run Psyshock, it runs Rapid Spin/Recover/Scald/Reflect Type

 

[Durant]

Gastrodon should definetly move up to C+. Gastrodon is pretty great in this metagame just because it can deal with so many threats like Thunderus, Mega Manectric, Excadrill, Victini, Raikou, sand offense, Heatran and most importantly rain teams which are on the rise. Aside from running niche Pokemon like Ludicolo rain teams usually can't deal with Gastrodon that well. It has some flaws like being a huge Mega Venusaur magnet and competition with Quagsire but every team has something for Mega Venusaur by default and Quagsire is mainly used on full stall + Storm Drain is really useful.

Amoongus doesn't really fit in A- rank anymore. Surely it puts something to sleep but after that it is just an open invite for stuff like Mega Pinsir, Excadrill and a lot more. Due to this it can sometimes be considered more of a liability than anything because it is way too easy to take advantage of. It is still good at stopping Pokemon like Keldeo and Azumarill but it's not as good as it once was.

Also nominating Gothitelle for around C ranks because it is really useless. Surely it easily defeats stall teams but that niche is kind of useless with barely any stall teams around. Also the metagame is becoming way more offensive and when you have Gothitelle you are playing 5-6 right from the start because Gothitelle does nothing against offense. Also Doublade can give it problems when Gothitelle doesn't run Shadow Ball so even then it can't take on stall teams by itself.

 

[Boltaway]

Defensive Starmie doesn't run Psyshock, it runs Rapid Spin/Recover/Scald/Reflect Type

Right, and that's the issue. Monotype coverage in Scald is pretty okay. Defensive Starmie can spinblock successfully against mons like Ttar and Bish, but it can't get past spinblockers like Gengar (the Taunt + 3 Attacks LO set really rising in popularity kind of tears that Starm set in two) and it can't get break past any ghost-type spinblockers that I can think of, except perhaps Chandelure, who can switch into a Scald if your opponent was ballsy enough. What makes that set even worse against Spinblockers is that either you Reflect Type and face a super effective ghost attack...or pick some other move and receive the same punishment.

Basically, the problem I have with the defensive set is that it lets it past certain pursuit mons, but leaves it vulnerable to all spinblockers. And honestly, you 2HKO most switch-ins with the offensive set and if you're cool enough of a dude to run HP Fire > Ice Beam you can do 80-98% to Ferrothorn on the switch (Analytic boost), while handling all Spinblockers except Jellicent who you can still 2HKO with Thunderbolt.

Basically, I don't feel that the Bulky set is worthy of a raise to A-. I feel that the offensive set is much better, more versatile, and perhaps not as consistent but stronger against a wider range of things. It might still be good enough for A-, but on the merit of both sets, not one.

 

[Baharoth]

Ok since people start claiming that Kyu-B has trouble with Slowbro i think its time to post some calcs:

Walls/defensive stuff it beats:

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 218-257 (65.2 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 257-304 (65.2 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 302-356 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

52 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 136 SpD Hippowdon: 343-406 (81.6 - 96.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 230-270 (56.9 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 294-346 (69.5 - 81.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 268-317 (68 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

52 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 208-250 (59 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

52 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 265-312 (73.8 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Jirachi: 190-224 (47 - 55.4%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Victini: 230-270 (62.6 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 164-192 (53.9 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 250-296 (61.8 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 104 HP / 248+ Def Alomomola: 320-377 (64.3 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


I think i dont have to mention that Gliscor and Lando-T are also utterly destroyed by it. Yes it needs to choose between beating Ferro/Scizor and Clefable/Sylveon but with the former two beeing Magnezone food you can get yourself a 2 mon combo that basicly destroys the entire defensive metagame on its own.

And it doesnt stop there. Offensive theats like Azumarill, Greninja, Dragonite, Gyarados, Lando-I without Focus Blast, Diggersby, Manaphy etc get destroyed as well. It basicly shits on everything slower than it (and thats quite alot given its base 95 speed) and revenges everything faster that doesnt have a very strong SE move to ohko. Its easily one of the best wallbreakers in the tier, even with Medi, Garde and Hera around and unlike them it doesnt need the mega slot and it even has its use against offense due to its bulk and ability to ohko everything offense can muster.

 

[Alfalfa]

Ok since people start claiming that Kyu-B has trouble with Slowbro i think its time to post some calcs:

Walls/defensive stuff it beats:

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 218-257 (65.2 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 257-304 (65.2 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 302-356 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

52 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 136 SpD Hippowdon: 343-406 (81.6 - 96.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 230-270 (56.9 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 294-346 (69.5 - 81.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 268-317 (68 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

52 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 208-250 (59 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

52 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 265-312 (73.8 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Jirachi: 190-224 (47 - 55.4%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Victini: 230-270 (62.6 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 164-192 (53.9 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 250-296 (61.8 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 104 HP / 248+ Def Alomomola: 320-377 (64.3 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


I think i dont have to mention that Gliscor and Lando-T are also utterly destroyed by it. Yes it needs to choose between beating Ferro/Scizor and Clefable/Sylveon but with the former two beeing Magnezone food you can get yourself a 2 mon combo that basicly destroys the entire defensive metagame on its own.

And it doesnt stop there. Offensive theats like Azumarill, Greninja, Dragonite, Gyarados, Lando-I without Focus Blast, Diggersby, Manaphy etc get destroyed as well. It basicly shits on everything slower than it (and thats quite alot given its base 95 speed) and revenges everything faster that doesnt have a very strong SE move to ohko. Its easily one of the best wallbreakers in the tier, even with Medi, Garde and Hera around and unlike them it doesnt need the mega slot and it even has its use against offense due to its bulk and ability to ohko everything offense can muster.

Kyurem-B does not maximize its attack. It generally runs 56 Atk / 252 SpA / 200 Spe Mild, though I will agree that it should not have a problem with Slowbro:

56 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 208-247 (52.7 - 62.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(standard Slowbro runs 232 Def so it can run enough Special Defense to avoid being 2HKOd by Specs Keldeo, but you get the point)

 

[Baharoth]

Kyurem-B does not maximize its attack. It generally runs 56 Atk / 252 SpA / 200 Spe Mild, though I will agree that it should not have a problem with Slowbro:

56 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 208-247 (52.7 - 62.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(standard Slowbro runs 232 Def so it can run enough Special Defense to avoid being 2HKOd by Specs Keldeo, but you get the point)

What sort of argument is that supposed to be? Max attack is obviously very effective and given that Ice Beam hits hard enough anyways i dont see any reason to max out SpA. Saying "it does not maximize attack" when its clearly the better set is a bit awkward dont you think?


/edit the max atk set is even mentioned in the analysis as the second set (god knows why it should be first but w.e.):

Physically Based Mixed Attacker
########
name: Physically Based Mixed Attacker
move 1: Dragon Claw
move 2: Fusion Bolt
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Iron Head / Outrage
item: Life Orb
evs: 252 Atk / 56 SpA / 200 Spe
nature: Lonely / Naughty

 

[Celticpride]

I wanted Crawdaunt to move up a few weeks ago, so I'll just restate my argument. What exactly on Stall can switch in on the LO set? Skarm is 2HKOed, Gliscor is demolished, Slowbro and Doublade hate Knock Off, Ferro gets taken out by the combination of Knock Off and Superpower, Mandi and Quag get 2HKOed fairly easily, Alomomola is 2HKOed after Rocks. Physically Defensive Mega Venusaur is really the only thing that doesn't get 2HKOed. Useless against offense? Not many things want to take an Adaptability Aqua Jet to the face. It can even break through Azumarill despite all it's attacks being resisted. Crawdaunt for B-.

calcs

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 228 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 172-203 (43.2 - 51%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 228 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 177-209 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 172-203 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 177-209 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Gastrodon should move up if the Rain team moves up. It even has some use outside of countering those teams, most notably as a full stop to Mega Manectric.

I wouldn't say that Kyu-B generally runs a certain set Alfalfa, they run all different combinations of HP, Special Attack, Attack and Speed. Running 252+ Attack/56 Special Attack/200 Speed isn't outlandish from what I've seen.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

I wanted Crawdaunt to move up a few weeks ago, so I'll just restate my argument. What exactly on Stall can switch in on the LO set? Skarm is 2HKOed, Gliscor is demolished, Slowbro and Doublade hate Knock Off, Ferro gets taken out by the combination of Knock Off and Superpower, Mandi and Quag get 2HKOed fairly easily, Alomomola is 2HKOed after Rocks. Physically Defensive Mega Venusaur is really the only thing that doesn't get 2HKOed. Useless against offense? Not many things want to take an Adaptability Aqua Jet to the face. It can even break through Azumarill despite all it's attacks being resisted. Crawdaunt for B-.

calcs

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 228 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 172-203 (43.2 - 51%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 228 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 177-209 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 172-203 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 177-209 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Gastrodon should move up if the Rain team moves up. It even has some use outside of countering those teams, most notably as a full stop to Mega Manectric.

I wouldn't say that Kyu-B generally runs a certain set Alfalfa, they run all different combinations of HP, Special Attack, Attack and Speed. Running 252+ Attack/56 Special Attack/200 Speed isn't outlandish from what I've seen.

I mean, ya...
I don't know why you are stating Crawdaunt's power when we all know it hits harder than MMawile ever will.

 

[alexwolf]

Kyurem-B is definitey hurt by the increase of Fairy / Steel / Dragon cores, as all of those Pokemon trouble it, and most Dragon-types are faster too. The metagame taking a more offensive apporach is also not good news for a wallbreaker that has few switch-in chances against offense and is Stealth Rock weak. However, don't forget that there are two sets of Kyurem-B that can fare very well against offense: Assault Vest and Scarf.

Assault Vest can keep in check many hard hitting Pokemon that offensive teams have trouble dealing with while not being very easy to wall, such as Thundurus, Greninja, Mega Gyarados, Mega Venusaur, Gengar, Mega Alakazam, and even Mega Charizard Y if you lack Lati@s (max HP / max SpD avoids the 2HKO from even Modest Fire Blast). A simple set of Fusion Bolt / (Iron Head / Dragon Claw) / Ice Beam / ( Dragon Claw / Earth Power) is still hitting very hard even without LO, and any offensive team without Mega Scizor or Jirachi is going to struggle to switch into it. Even Clefable can be easily 2HKOed by Iron Heah, and you don't even need to predict the switch as Clefable doesn't do so much to AV Kyurem-B with Moonblast anyway, so thanks to Iron Head's superior PP to Softboiled and the flinch chance Kyurem-B will come out on top. While AV Kyurem-B may not be that hard to wall for balanced and stall teams, it can still be useful if you manage to weaken the one Pokemon that keeps it in check (it's never more than one), and it still checks many Pokemon that balanced teams carry, mainly offensive ones, but some defensive Grass-types too, such as Celebi and Amoonguss.

As for Scarf, if paired with Magnezone, it can be a great cleaner, as Scarf Outrage is brutal. It also helps that many teams are using Landorus-T as their scarfer, as Jolly Kyurem-B outspeeds it and easily 2HKOes with Outrage, while being able to tank even one Superpower from full health. I need to use it and see it more in action, but Scarf Kyu-B with Magnezone support seems very good in theory.

tl;dr Kyurem-B definitely needs to adapt to the metagame if it wants to stay in A-, but i think it can do this with its Assault Vest and Scarf sets.

 

[AM]

Alright so since we're on the topic of Starmie I'm going to just say that it should stay B+. Tbh I don't even like the offensive set because it gets worn down by Hazard and LO recoil so fast it's just stupid. I understand though it has some nice immediate power and a sweet speed tier to put a dent in a lot of stuff late game hence why it's at B+ now if we're going off of that set. I've been using Bulky Starmie on a sort of stall team of sorts and although it's been doing pretty well, that lack of any real offensive presence is what concerns me. It's also a problem when the majority of a lot of matchups aren't in bulky Starmies favor. People overestimate its bulk and fail to realize it's not exactly the most bulky of things, it's just more bulky than it's offensive variant which is frail as hell anyways. Even with Reflect Type at its disposal there's a lot of things like M-Venusuar for example that don't really have a care for it since they have a secondary stab to hit Starmie with and Scald isn't really doing a whole lot. It kind of just sits there against things like Clefable and it can't really break anything relevant if we're considering more bulky mons such as that. There's this other issue that I've literally had matches saying to myself "Man I really need to get this Scald burn to do something remotely relevant with Starmie right now" and honestly I don't really find things like that to be a very reliable aspect when I consider something using an A- ranked mon, which is what Albacore was suggesting. If I'm going simply off of how the A- rank mons compare to Starmie, I can see that the A- ranked mons might have a couple of bad team matchups here and there. However, what they do is generally always consistent and I feel that the Starmie doesn't necessarily provide that consistency all the time. Keep Starmie in B+.

 

[Merkur_Lampe]

I even built a team around Kyurem-B recently, and while it has many sets like Substitute, Life Orb+Roost 3 Attacks, Choice Scarf, Assault Vest, Choice Band, and all-out attacker with a Life Orb, it is just too slow. It is weak to common priorities like Bullet Punch and Mach Punch, while it resists only Aqua Jet. The substitute set got worse because of the Mega Gardevoirs running around after the bans, and more wallbreakers are viable now so there are more competitions. Sure it doesn't take a Mega slot, but Landorus doesn't either. It even struggles to beat Chansey if it is not running Life Orb/Choice Band with Outrage. It is pretty revenge kill unless it has Subs up, but it is not very easy to set up subs since the metagame is becoming more and more offensive. It is SR weak, which does not help at all, and Fairy/Dragon/Steel will hit this thing super effectively. Terrakion's usage/viability moved up, which means Kyurem-B will have a hard time. Lati@s' usage moved up after the bans, and they are faster than Kyurem-B, so they will fire off faster Draco Meteors. Stall is getting rarer, which Kyurem-B should be breaking. I think this is long overdue, but I haven't used/seen an AV set. That sounds interesting to try, but besides that, Kyurem-B is not as good as it was before the bans. I agree the drop to B+.
EDIT: Even if it stays, the 'usual' sets are not that great in this meta.