Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

[koista12]

I also think azumarill should stay S rank. Every hyper offense team that doesn't carry a grass type is weak to azumarill.

For the latios vs AV azumarill scenario, I usually don't switch an azumarill into latios directly, because I know it can 2HKO. AV aumarill usually doesn't switch into things that can hit it neutrally or super effectively, it comes in through a slow u turn/volt switch, or a sac.

What counters azumarill besides grass types? I know not having counters or having very few counters doesn't make automatically make a pokemon s rank, but it certainly is a factor.

The last reason I think azumarill should stay s rank is its really low risk and high reward. What risk do you take in adding an azumarill to your team? An electric weakness? Low speed? What is your reward? The ability to check almost every special attacker, or to 2HKO most walls? There is usually no reason to not add an azumarill to your team unless you already have a water type or two, or need a specific mon. Azumarill possibly the best glue mon in OU after clefable.

I apologize if my arguments sucked.

 

[Pikachuu]

Can we please Mega Charizard X down already? None of it's sets are very effective in the current meta and it faces competition from other Megas who might not be as versatile but have one set that is extremely good. Double weakness to SR before Mega evolving and still being weak to it after is the final nail in the coffin. SD+Tailwind is mediocre in practice, WoW set faces competition from Mew and DD has trouble against sand offense, Azumarill, Landorus-T, Tyranitar and Slowbro as well as easily being revenge killed. Should move down to A+, it's long overdue.

 

[Alfalfa]

Can we please Mega Charizard X down already? None of it's sets are very effective in the current meta and it faces competition from other Megas who might not be as versatile but have one set that is extremely good. Double weakness to SR before Mega evolving and still being weak to it after is the final nail in the coffin. SD+Tailwind is mediocre in practice, WoW set faces competition from Mew and DD has trouble against sand offense, Azumarill, Landorus-T, Tyranitar and Slowbro as well as easily being revenge killed. Should move down to A+, it's long overdue.

Actually, WoW set does not face competition from Mew. Defensive Zard X has a niche on stall on beating able to beat Mew 1-on-1, being able to handle both Will-O-Wisp and Knock Off, something Mew itself cannot do. SD+Tailwind only works on Screens, are you saying it is mediocre even in screens?

 

[Worthlessnoob]

I think Thundurus should stay S, and I'm pretty adamant about it. I think being able to paralyze faster threats is amazing. I know that niche is becoming a bit less relevant, but I'd like to urge people to try a slightly more bulky set which can last longer, paralyze faster threats, and allow mons like Medicham and Gardevoir to plow through offensive teams.

What new metagame trends are causing it to fall anyways? Is it happening in the tournament scene or is it taking place on the ladder?

 

[Srn]

I think Thundurus should stay S, and I'm pretty adamant about it. I think being able to paralyze faster threats is amazing. I know that niche is becoming a bit less relevant, but I'd like to urge people to try a slightly more bulky set which can last longer, paralyze faster threats, and allow mons like Medicham and Gardevoir to plow through offensive teams.

What new metagame trends are causing it to fall anyways? Is it happening in the tournament scene or is it taking place on the ladder?

If it's paralysis you want to spread, then hit up your local mexican for advice thundurus is definitely not the mon you should be using. Mons that can effectively spread paralysis are bulky mons that can actually threaten electric and ground mons, like celebi, chansey, or latias. Thundurus is a one-time paralysis last ditch kind of thing and if you want to give your wallbreaker paralysis support you're better off using a bulkier spreader of paralysis.
idk why people think thundurus spreads para, it doesn't, it's a one-time thing for the most part. that's not spreading.

Also bulky thundurus lolwut

 

[Clone]

If it's paralysis you want to spread, then hit up your local mexican for advice thundurus is definitely not the mon you should be using. Mons that can effectively spread paralysis are bulky mons that can actually threaten electric and ground mons, like celebi, chansey, or latias. Thundurus is a one-time paralysis last ditch kind of thing and if you want to give your wallbreaker paralysis support you're better off using a bulkier spreader of paralysis.
idk why people think thundurus spreads para, it doesn't, it's a one-time thing for the most part. that's not spreading.

Also bulky thundurus lolwut

I think you mean Brazilian. And CTC innovated fat Thundy. CTC is a great builder so it's obviously an amazing set.

Jokes aside, I don't think Thundy should drop. Yes, prankster T Wave is becoming less and less useful, but it can still be pretty clutch in some situations. Aside from that, the mixed set is pretty good, as it is able to beat would be checks like Latias with Knock off or TTar with Superpower. Then there's the fact that its a reliable bird check, as he can tank a brave bird / quick attack and OHKO with T Bolt. Thundy has lost a bit of viability, but his speed tier and excellent offensive presence make him a prominent threat in OU. hes also a hell of a lot better than Keldeo, who should drop before he does

 

[Srn]

I think you mean Brazilian. And CTC innovated fat Thundy. CTC is a great builder so it's obviously an amazing set.

Jokes aside, I don't think Thundy should drop. Yes, prankster T Wave is becoming less and less useful, but it can still be pretty clutch in some situations. Aside from that, the mixed set is pretty good, as it is able to beat would be checks like Latias with Knock off or TTar with Superpower. Then there's the fact that its a reliable bird check, as he can tank a brave bird / quick attack and OHKO with T Bolt. Thundy has lost a bit of viability, but his speed tier and excellent offensive presence make him a prominent threat in OU. hes also a hell of a lot better than Keldeo, who should drop before he does

No seriously i have no idea why you'd make thundurus bulky plox explain ;~;

As far as thundy for S rank or not goes, I kinda believe it should drop. Its versatile af but the meta rn is quite anti-offensive rn with all the mega man and scarf lando-t and sand rush going around, its very difficult to actually sweep. Thus, ho teams, on which thundurus thrived, have been on a sharp decline. Coincidentally, the team which thundurus performed most effectively against, HO, has declined, so thundurus's use as a whole has dropped. The best he can really do is "wallbreak" some frail balance teams with the right coverage. Let's be honest almost every respectable stall team uses bulky wisp char-x and thundurus cant lay a finger on that set lol. Defogging as a whole has dropped in usage now that starmie and excadrill are so much popular, so the defiant set is out of the picture as well. And then you have the usual problems I had with thundurus aka its frail af and struggles to switch into much of anything, which is why it thrived on HO teams; it got free switch-ins from dead mons and double switches, which is how HO is played.
The only real use thundy has as it stands is using psychic to lure mvenu/amoong for ur keld or something or wallbreak with NP+LO+3 attacks.
Oh btw I never supported keldeo for s rank either drop that shit. it may be able to switch into shit but its way too easy to handle for defensive and offensive teams alike.
I'll address ninja when i'm not lazy.

 

[Zebstrika]

Latios and Latias should stay the same rank. There's not a huge power difference as people seem to claim:

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 317-374 (82.5 - 97.3%)
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 282-333 (73.4 - 86.7%)

A low roll on Latios could pass as a high roll from Latias. In other words, there is no pokemon that Latios always KOs that Latias never KOs, the damage difference comes down to Latios only has a higher chance to KO.

Of course that goes both ways, in that Latias' bulk advantage has the same property; she never avoids being KOd by anything that always KOs Latios, she only has a lower chance to be KOd.

252+ SpA Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 248-294 (82.3 - 97.6%)
252 Atk Abomasnow Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 240-284 (79.7 - 94.3%)

252+ SpA Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 288-338 (95.6 - 112.2%)
252 Atk Abomasnow Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 266-314 (88.3 - 104.3%)

So, the stats don't make a big difference. Generally the extra power is more useful than the extra bulk, but not by much, and it's not even that much extra power to begin with. Latios' extra power is pretty obviously useful, he kills more stuff before they get a chance to hit back. Latias' extra bulk lets her check some pokemon that are difficult to switch into. They can check Keldeo, Landorus, Charizard Y, Thundurus, etc, which can give Latias more utility on balance or defensive teams that will be staring down those wall breakers a couple of times per game and don't want to sac a pokemon. Also, better bulk means free turns are more reliable; Latios is more dependent on forcing a switch to get its Defog off, while Latias is more capable of simply eating up whatever the opponent's pokemon can throw at it, and defogging.

Latias then has Healing Wish. It lets Latias find which pokemon her opponent is most weak to, and then force them to face it twice. It's especially good against stall whose teams are more matchup-based, and will have a much harder time dealing with certain pokemon, and stall is the type of team most likely to cripple and weaken a threat but not straight up KO it (though Healing Wish is also really effective against some teams that sac Thundurus as their "revenge killer", and really any team that has a weakness to a pokemon you brought). Like when I'm on my stall team, any time I want to sac my Mew to get a burn on a dangerous pokemon like Mega Heracross, I have to check if they have Latias, or else it's just going to take out my Mew, heal up later and roll over me when I've already exhausted everything I can do to it. I have actually been relieved to see they were using Latios instead in situations like that, because I have pokemon that can tank its ~11% stronger attacks.

 

[Jukain]

Thundurus: A+

I definitely support Thundurus dropping. Back in the pre-Aegislash/Mawile/Deos ban metagame, Thundurus was a force to be reckoned with. The double genie offensive core was ubiquitous and ridiculously effective. The heavily offensive nature of the metagame due to these Pokemon made Thundurus thrive due to a crucial Speed tiers over the Latis, Keldeo, and Mega Pinsir, as well as these insanely threatening DD sweepers - Mega Charizard X, Mega Gyarados, and Mega Tyranitar primarily - that thrived in this metagame. In short, Thundurus took an enormous dump on this offensive metagame, consistently at the top of SPL/WCOP usage stats. The metagame now is very, very different from then. These mons like Scarf Mag, WoW Zard X, Scarf Landorus-T, Mega Manectric, mixed defensive Clefable, AV Azumarill, and Latis being insanely good thanks to Maw and Aegi leaving are just some of the anti-Thundurus trends, but more than all that its Prankster Thunder Wave became so much less valuable. Jirachee brought up a really good point in that Scarfers have gotten a lot better with Aegislash gone. As a result of this, the role of a Mega on teams overall has changed enormously. These sweepers can't sweep, so teams are utilizing Megas for pretty much anti-defense or anti-offense roles. By this I mean like Hera, Gard, Pinsir, Manectric that cause enormous troubles for offensive or defensive teams. As these DDers are both more easily dealt with and less common, Thundurus's value has decreased enormously. A+ makes a lot of sense for it in this metagame.

Latios: S
Latias: A+

Latios to S is a no-brainer. It's the best Pokemon in the tier. It is THE offensive Defogger, and almost nothing is entirely safe against it. The only move you really know when you see Latios is Draco Meteor and debateably Psyshock (I say that because HP Fire + EQ is a sick way to catch unsuspecting Ferros/Trans. It is an exceedingly useful way for offenses to check mons like Keldeo, Zard Y, and Lando that are exceedingly difficult handle otherwise, and can utilize its other moveslots to mess with different mons. It's got HP Fire to mess with Ferrothorn/Scizor/Bisharp, EQ to lure Heatran, Surf for a free KO on Lando as well as hitting Heatrans and Tyranitars, TBolt for a safe option on Waters in general and to prevent Skarm from Defogging, and Roost to keep itself healthy. Heck, it can even run a Choice Scarf, an underrated option, and surprise faster foes/cripple defensive answers with Trick; or it can Memento to let a sweeper set up with ease. Latios just provides so much utility for a team and really has barely any true safe switch-ins.

A couple people have brought up Latias, and I firmly believe that it is worse than Latios. First of all, Latias has little, if any, versatility. Its alternative options for slots are basically HP Fire vs Psyshock and Healing Wish vs Roost. It's also noticeably less powerful, which does not make up for the difference in bulk that in the long run is very minor. Magcargo made a pretty good post about this, I won't say much more.

Mega Gardevoir: A+

I talked to TRC about this yesterday, and I feel pretty strongly that Mega Gardevoir should be in A+ Rank. It is just so good at punishing any slower or defensive build. McMeghan explained what it has over the other Mega wallbreakers pretty much perfectly, and I'd like to add that it synergizes well to form some potent as hell offensive builds, for example I've been working with different variations on Gard + Lucha/Gar that work really well, and different sorts of builds are around, like, Gard Sharp and Gard Mag offensive teams that can put brutal amounts of pressure on opposing teams. It's rarely dead weight vs offense because you VoltTurn it in and most of the time get a kill, it's not that simple to revenge kill either due to its great bulk. It's also a way for offense not to lose to rain! Oh and bulky Mega Gardevoir is an cool mon can be a pain in the ass with still great power and checking mons like Greninja and Mega Manectric very well.

Quagsire: C+

I think Quagsire should move down further than B-, to C+. It's really just not that good atm. Nobody uses Quagsire stall, that's not a thing and the teams that do have it mostly suck. That was its niche. Quagsire's job is to beat physical setuppers, but that's not enough in this metagame where these setup mons are rarer and more Pokemon are just too strong for it to handle with its only passable bulk. It's often dead weight and can even end up being a liability vs mons like Clefable and Latis.

Hawlucha: B+

Hawlucha is incredible, just completely and utterly incredible. It is one of the most dangerous sweepers in the metagame, as many teams simply can't tank that +2 HJK/Acro. It's very easy to set up, and definitely benefits from the decrease in Thundurus which is one of the biggest issues for it. A nice typing and ridiculous Speed even pre-Unburden (run Jolly it's better!!) give it the ability to check/set up on many common mons. Flying Fighting coverage is excellent as we've seen on Pinsir, but Hawlucha just takes this to a whole other level with dual STABs, so it doesn't have problems with these different Electric/Rock checks. It synergizes well with things like Gard in particular as well as Hera to break down opposing teams before it sweeps, and moreover cannot be revenge killed when it sweeps. Nothing in the tier outspeeds Unburden-activated Hawlucha, not a Scarfer or SR Drill or Swift Swimmer even. This makes it exponentially more dangerous than DD sweepers like Mega Charizard X, Mega Gyarados, and Dragonite, which in sharp contrast aren't very difficult at all. With its Speed, it doesn't even always have to set up to do some major damage (replay that illustrates this). Very solid and threatening Pokemon in this metagame that I think is a strong candidate for B+ Rank.

 

[Flamer]

ok if we're ranking Cobalion I seriously doubt it will be because of sub sd, thats a decent set in RU but it just lacks so much power in OU. The only reason i'd be willing to rank it is the lead set. That set is actually pretty good, it works almost exactly like lead terrakion except it 100% counters Bisharp, who is getting a lot more threatening atm, and has Volt Switch to keep up momentum. It's nothing special but it works pretty well.

While I'm here I might as well talk about some of the current noms.
Thund-I is just not that good anymore. Back in the Aegi meta, it was so good and was literally the mon to slap on your team. At the moment though, it struggles with any team with Scarf lando (ie 90% of them) and most meta-defining mons arent speed sweepers, so paralysis isnt as needed and gives free switch ins to megaman/raikou, who are getting really good atm.

Lucario is another mon that I feel needs more love. I made a post a while back talking about its abilities as a lategame cleaner. At +2, it scares so many offensive and balanced teams thanks to Espeed and CC and, honestly, finds ample setup opportunities against a fair amount of teams. The biggest issues it has are faster mons that can take a +2 Espeed and severe 4mss, but the first is mitigated by the fact that it is supposed to be a late-game sweeper, most mons will have taken prior damage, be it from SR or constant switching in. The fact that it severely damages teams, doesn't require a lot of support, and also doesn't take up a mega slot is another bonus. B- is far too harsh, its a great mon and deserves more usage. Lucario for B

other stuff i agree with
Latios for S: Best defogger in the tier, amazing combination of speed, power and utility.
Hawlucha for B+: Nifty sweeper who dgaf about anything once its setup, incredibly hard to stop without talon or thund
Mega Garde for A+: Punishes Switchins and has a decent base speed compared to Heracross and can actually take some hits compared to medi.

also rip Richie, you will (not) be missed

 

[SomeKidFromJohto]

Well, right off the bat, I'm going to go ahead and agree with Hawlucha for B+. It's a ridiculously effective pokemon once it gets set up, and setting up isn't that hard. It's sky attack/power herb unburden set is an absolute terror, doing ridiculous damage WHILE setting up unburden, and if it gets off a SD as well, it's pretty much GG right there as long as the opponent doesn't have talonflame or thundy around. And considering it isn't too difficult to contain the two of them, hawlucha is a rewarding pokemon to use, who doesn't need much support. B+ is a solid rank for him.

But aside from that, I actually wanted to make a bit of a surprise nomination. I was scrolling through the rankings and noticed that we don't have normal heracross ranked, so I'm going to go ahead and nominate Heracross for D rank. I realize that heracross suffers a severe case of being outclassed by it's mega, which is doing incredibly well atm, but that doesn't necessarily mean that normal heracross doesn't have a niche. It actually has a few solid sets that are still viable, including a decent scarf/moxie set that can clean up late game extremely well, and my personal favorite that I've actually been experimenting with recently: an assault vest/guts set which is a very good answer to scald/WoW users which many teams can struggle to contain.

Here's the set I've been using:

Heracross @ Assault Vest
Ability: Guts
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Megahorn
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

This guy is a pretty good answer to many special based threats in the game, and while without speed investment, he can't directly counter many of them, he can check a very large portion of the special metagame, and especially scald users, as I stated before. Just for kicks, here's a calc from one of the strongest scald users in the game:

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Scald vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Heracross: 135-160 (37.1 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

That's pretty impressive, considering. And even if hera were to get burned by scald, it would only benefit from the guts boost and be able to OHKO keldeo with CC. This doesn't make heracross a good counter to keldeo, but it does allow it to hard check ones that are choice locked into scald, which could cause many teams a lot of trouble.

And that's not where the fun ends: Assault vest heracross's special bulk is so massive, it can even absorb some powerful super effective hits, and depending on the pokemon, often net a OHKO in return. For example, let's see how heracross fares against a modest mega houndoom's fire blast:

252+ SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Heracross: 288-342 (79.3 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Well, that hurt, but it didn't finish heracross off. In fact, it's only got a 50% chance to kill hera after stealth rocks. And considering most houndooms will be timid anyway, that won't usually be a problem. And of course, hera can easily finish houndoom with CC, and even if houndoom got lucky and landed a burn, with guts it will only increase hera's power and end up with a double KO after burn damage.

There are plenty of other uses for this set, but I think I've established that it has the utility to be effective in enough scenarios to warrant at least a D rank. These are both scenarios that maga heracross wouldn't like to encounter, as powerful special moves with the potential of burns will ruin mega heracross, but an assault vest/guts normal hera can actually turn them to it's advantage.

I think D rank is a pretty decent place for normal heracross, or maybe even C-, but I think starting at D is fine, as it still has some serious drawbacks. It's still ruined by talonflame and anything with truly massive super effective special attacks (mega charizard Y in the sun will sitll OHKO with fire blast, and mega gardevoir will still OHKO with hyper voice). Plus, it's bulk wont last long against multiple pokemon: one or two KOs would be all it could ever hope for, especially as burn damage will rack up pretty fast, and with it's low speed it won't be striking first very often. But I'm not only nomming it for the assault vest set: the scarf/moxie set disregards a lot of hera's speed concerns, and boosts it's attack on kills, so it can get hard to deal with very quickly as well. I didn't go into much detail on it, though, as I'm sure most people are familiar with it. So with all that said, I think normal heracross has just enough going for it to differentiate itself from it's mega and earn a ranking.

Sorry for the long post, so just to sum up: I support Hawl for B+, and would like to nominate Heracross for D.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

I think Entei should drop to C+. Entei is no longer that effective in this metagame with the rise of stuff such as Lando-T, Greninja and Keldeo. It also has to compete with Victini and Zard X, which are much stronger and have wide movepools, unlike the dog who'll basically have Sacred Fire, ExtremeSpeed, Stone Edge and Flare Blitz.

 

[garchomp11111]

Can someone tell me why victini and jirachi are ranked so high?I have never used them yet so I don't really know about them(what the hell is stalltini btw?

And no discussions for doublade to B?

 

[kabbes]

I've never had a problem dealing with Greninja but I just got utterly fucked by one wearing a focus sash and running Water Shuriken of all things. A lucky five-hit just about took out my priority user.

ETA: also, it was torrent. I had wondered why, but this became clear after the focus sash was triggered. Scald/dark pulse/water Shuriken/?

 

[Blizzardhail]

Can someone tell me why victini and jirachi are ranked so high?I have never used them yet so I don't really know about them(what the hell is stalltini btw?

And no discussions for doublade to B?

From what I know they serve as useful checks to M-Gardevoir without Shadow Ball and with the banning of Aegislash they have gotten much better. Tbh I recently came back so I don't know much about the current metagame.
I really feel that Thundurus' value has diminished but however it's physical and NP sets still seem pretty good. Physical Thundurus can punish the Latis for using Defog with Knock Off and it can beat AV Azumarill IIRC. NP Thundurus threatens to rip apart teams and can give up a coverage move to hit the Latis with Knock Off provided your team can deal with the Pokemon that the coverage usually covers. Although Thundy's TWave is no longer as effective, the other sets are still pretty good IMO. Although Bisharp may seem to outclass Physcial Thundurus as a Defog punisher, Thundurus' unique speed tier allows it to beat 110 speed tier pokes.
Keep Thundurus in S pls

 

[Prosecutor Godot]

I think Entei should drop to C+. Entei is no longer that effective in this metagame with the rise of stuff such as Lando-T, Greninja and Keldeo. It also has to compete with Victini and Zard X, which are much stronger and have wide movepools, unlike the dog who'll basically have Sacred Fire, ExtremeSpeed, Stone Edge and Flare Blitz.

I completely disagree with this, you're looking at the wrong Entei set. Use Sacred Fire/Bulldoze/Stone Edge/Flare Blitz or ExtremeSpeed and you get fantastic coverage that can hit just about everything in the tier. Entei is so hard to find safe switches into, Sacred Fire's 50% burnrate is crazy and Lando-T + the offensive waters don't want to switch in anyway. Entei is still great on semistall for it's ability to provide offensive pressure and spreading burns, there is no way its on the same level as Infernape and Wobbuffet. I think it should rise to B if anything, not fall further.

 

[Mr. Goodra]

I completely disagree with this, you're looking at the wrong Entei set. Use Sacred Fire/Bulldoze/Stone Edge/Flare Blitz or ExtremeSpeed and you get fantastic coverage that can hit just about everything in the tier. Entei is so hard to find safe switches into, Sacred Fire's 50% burnrate is crazy and Lando-T + the offensive waters don't want to switch in anyway. Entei is still great on semistall for it's ability to provide offensive pressure and spreading burns, there is no way its on the same level as Infernape and Wobbuffet. I think it should rise to B if anything, not fall further.

Seconding this, I regularly use Entei and it's so hard to switch into it's unreal. I've actually been using AV with the same set as above and things that think they're switch ins just aren't. It's bulk is impressive so it can take hits in a pinch, and it screws over would be counters just by burning them.

It definitely has cons, like the SR weakness and no recovery, but that can be mitigated pretty well with wish support. It has access to one of the best priority moves going which hurts off base 115, and that plus sacred fire I think gives it a clear niche over Zard-X and Victini. Entei for B.

 

[Tele]

Update time:

Greninja: A+ ---> S
Crawdaunt: C+ ---> B-
Raikou: B ---> B+
Mega Manectric: B+ ---> A-
Mega Scizor: A ---> A+
Mega Gyarados: A+ ---> A
Gyarados: A- ---> B+
Terrakion: A+ ---> A
Skarmory: A- ---> B+
Chansey: A- ---> B+
Doublade: C+ ---> B-
Mew: A ---> A+
Empoleon: C ---> C+
Amoonguss: A- ---> B+
Tangrowth: C ---> C+
Ditto: C+ ---> C
Omastar: B- ---> B
Magneton: C ---> C+
Toxicroak: C- ---> C
Wobbuffet: C ---> C+
Togekiss: C+ ---> B-
Gastrodon: C ---> C+
Jirachi: Stays in B+
Victini: Stays in B+
Weavile: Stays in B-
Mega Houndoom: Stays in C+
Venomoth: C- ---> D

And that's it for now. I don't have the time to explain the changes and most of them received huge support anyway, judging by the likes in Bloo's and McMeghan's posts, and i have already discussed them with TRC and ben gay, so i don't think there will be any problem.

Important changes to discuss:

Azumarill: S ---> A+
Thundurus: S ---> A+
Latios: A+ ---> S
Tyranitar: A ---> A-
Mega Gardevoir: A ---> A+
Mega Alakazam: A- ---> B+
Mega Aerodactyl: A- ---> B+
Quagsire: B ---> B-

And a few not so important ones:

Cofagrigus: Unranked ---> D
Cobalion: Unranked ---> D
Mega Abomasnow: Unranked ---> D
Meloetta: Unranked ---> D
Metagross: Unranked ---> D

The last 5 nominations were made by ben gay, and i want to see some opinions about them. Oh and feel free to talk more about Weavile, Jirachi, Mega Houndoom, and Victini, their placement isn't final, i just let them stay where they are atm because of lack of evidence and support that suggests otherwise.

I don't see gengar in this list, so I guess noone nominated him.
Gengar: A ---> A+
Like someone said in the Overused chat the other day, Gengar is pretty anti-meta at the moment, and i perfectly agree with this. Psychic types like Mew, Jirachi , Slowbro and Victini (just to name some) have become pretty common on the ladder lately (direct consequence to the meta adapting to the aegi ban), and Latios and Mega Gardevoir rise in the viabilty rank is just a proof of this changement. And here comes Gengar; there's no OU poke that can switch in safely on a Life Orbed Shadow Ball/Sludge Bomb and avoid the 2KHO from it. It's painfull for Balance and Stall to face this monster; Offense has a better match up since it has some faster pokemon like Thundurus or Greninja that can revenge kill. Furthermore Gengar has many viable sets (All-out,which is the one that works better, Sub-w0w, Taunt-wow) which make him even more unpredictable.

I'd also like to repost a nomination i made some days ago and received no answer at all lel

Slowbro: A ---> A-
Basically I think that people overestimated Slowbro's role in the metagame after Aegislash ban; it has already been said that many pokemons took benefit from aegi's ban, especially wallbreaking MegaEvo, like Mega Gardevoir and Mega Heracross; these overpowered mons threaten Slowbro to the point that he represents an opportunity for them to come in and get a kill without much effort or just set up right in front of him; I will try to explain better what im saying:

- Mega Heracross can come in after a kill and one-shot Slowbro with Pin Missile; the player using Mega Heracross can also take advantage of this by correctly predicting when Slowbro is coming in for the opponent (not that hard to do) or he can predict when Slowbro is going to Slack Off and get a free switch in; furthermore people are preferring Grass Knot over Psyschock on Slowbro (probably to deal better with others Slowbro) giving the opportunity for the M Hera user to set a free substitute (which isnt an uncommon set);
- Sub Mega Gyarados just shits on Slowbro since there's no way for the Slowbro user to break the sub; this results in a +1 M Gyara behind a sub, which is probably going to sweep your entire team if you havent the right check;
- Taunt Mega Garde/Sub Mega Garde: with a little of prior damage Hypervoice kills it; Taunt prevents Slowbro from Twaving/Toxing M Garde, while Substitute is probably the best thing Mega garde can do against Slowbro since Scald can't break the sub; in this way the M Garde user can easily get at least 2 kill (if not more);
- SD Mega Pinsir also took great benefit from Aegi's ban and became very popular; even if people say that Slowbro is a great Flying spam check, this can't be true in the case of M Pinsir since SR + Return afte 1 SD always kill him;
- Mega Medicham: people saying Slowbro is a good Mega Medi check might be wrong since Thunderpunch makes it a 2KHO even without Sr damage; obviously some prediction is needed but this shouldn't be a problem since there arent much things that can switch in on M Medi (and Slowbro is one of these);
- Thundurus/Landorus-I: these 2 S-rank pokemons both incredibly threaten Slowbro; Thundurus always kill, while Earth Power of Lando-I always kill after Sr damage;
- Rotom-W is very annoying for a large part of the metagame, and Slowbro doesn't make an exception;
- Weak to Status: Slowbro can be burned, twave r Tox'd; for this reason he often needs some support, which can be a healer or a status absorber like Starmie (not a great core tho) or Clefable Magic Guard;
- Trappers like Wobbuffet and Gothitelle: Wobbuffet is faster than our Slowbro so it's easy for him to come in on a Scald, lock Slowbro into this move and kill him with Mirror Coat; Gothitelle is just an awful nightmare for Slowbro, especially the Trick-Calm Mind-Rest-Psychic/Psyshock set which usually gets another kill after Slowbro;
- VoltTurn: being weak both to electric and bug types, Slowbro isn't obviously a good VoltTurn check, Mega Manetric, Raikou and Magnezone all manage to kill him without effort.
-Secondary threats: Latios (Dmeteor+SR=kill), Greninja, Manaphy (CM+Rain Dance set or Tail Glow set), Breelom, Mega Venusaur, Mega Charizard Y.

 

[Kyuzeth]

It's been a while since my last big post here, so let's get this going. I'm mainly going to react on most of the recent suggestions; a lot has already been said, but I'll try to add my own things.

Thundurus-I (S) → A+ | There's one really simple yet extremely major reason why I support the kami dropping: The metagame has shifted away from its favor. Don't get me wrong; Thundurus-I is still an absolutely fantastic Pokémon that will most of the time pull its weight, just much less than it used to. Pokémon like Mega Manectric and Latios have been on the rise, which can make life difficult for the kami: Mega Manectric can utilize Lightning Rod to absorb any Thunder Waves or Thunderbolts that Thundurus-I uses and raise its Special Attack to become a huge threat after Mega Evolution, while Latios has no trouble at all switching in on any of its offensive moves. In a metagame where hard hitters are everywhere, Thundurus-I can't exactly thrive well, either, thanks to its pitiful bulk.
All in all, while a great Pokémon, Thundurus-I is nowhere near as metagame-defining as it used to be. Drop it to A+.

Latios (A+) → S | Latios is magnificent in the current meta. Its versatility, flexibility and adaptability to just about any kind of team is just astounding: it's bar none the best offensive Defogger in the tier, is an excellent attacker due to the large variety of offensive sets it can run; this enables it to combat a huge amount of Pokémon in OU. Despite the large choice of moves, Latios doesn't suffer from 4MSS, since its team can easily cover for any blind spots in the coverage it runs. This brings forth a factor of unpredictability as well; you don't know which offensive moves it'll run aside from Draco Meteor, so it's all a big guessing game until it reveals its moves. It's unfortunately still Pursuit bait, but with Tyranitar's usage on the decline and the metagame overall shifting to the dragon's favor, Latios is a near-flawless Pokémon as it currently is. It's the best Pokémon in OU. No doubt about that. I feel like its ranking should reflect this position as the absolute best, so Latios should rise to S.

Mega Gardevoir (A) → A+ | I'm really glad it's been brought up again. I feel like some people are really underselling Mega Gardevoir's qualities, namely pressuring defensive teams with its amazing offensive prowess and even giving offensive teams a hard time due to its incredible power. The current state of the metagame is more favorable to Mega Gardevoir than it was before; with Pokémon such as Latios on the rise, which it can check quite easily, as well as Pokémon that can support it well seeing more use, things are definitely looking bright for Mega Gardevoir. Magnezone can trap and KO Steel-types, which are pretty much the only thing giving Mega Gardevoir a lot of trouble, while in return, it can beat some of the Fighting-types that plague Zone. I haven't heard much about the defensive set yet, but I guess it does add more unpredictability to Mega Gardevoir and makes it usable on more kinds of teams. It's just great in the current meta, so it wouldn't hurt moving Mega Gardevoir up to A+.

These were the main suggestions I was gonna stand behind. I'm really on the fence about most others, but I'll list each of them with a very short explanation.

Mega Charizard X | This thing remains a threat to lots of playstyles, but I will admit it's lost its touch over time and it can't exactly find the time to set up on fast teams, not to mention the rise of Rain Offense being harmful to its Fire-type STAB. Sand Offense still hurts it really badly, too. Despite that, though, its Fire/Dragon-type is still incredible and has nigh-perfect, high-power coverage. It can still perform its three roles excellently, just not as excellently as it used to. In the end, I'm fine with it going either way, be it falling to A+ or staying in S.

Azumarill | An excellent Pokémon that's just amusingly easy to slap on teams and has a variety of highly usable sets, but as somebody has pointed out before, none of these sets are really mind-blowing and have some serious flaws. You really have to choose between power and bulk when using Azumarill and while it can fit on a large series of teams, the difference in power and bulk is really noticeable. As with Zard X, this one can go either way.

Just as a final suggestion to spark some more discussion, would Mega Manectric be good and dominant enough to rise to A? It's a highly reliable Electric-type that can do a whole lot on just one team slot and pairs well with many common Pokémon, particularly forming an excellent dual-Intimidate VoltTurn core with Landorus-T. Mega Manectric is one of the best switch-ins on Steel-types; Mega Scizor and Magnezone are both fried by Flamethrower and can't do a terrible lot back. I dunno, it sounds good enough for A in my opinion, but A- is already a good place for it to be.

Also drop Zapdos to C+, it's just bad in the current meta. Latios is ever more common and entirely eclipses it as a Defogger, while both Mega Manectric and Magnezone are better Electric-types and are far better at what they do than what Zapdos tries to do. Sucks as a Flying Spam check compared to Rhyperior and Mega Aerodactyl, too.

 

[Alfalfa]

I think Entei should drop to C+. Entei is no longer that effective in this metagame with the rise of stuff such as Lando-T, Greninja and Keldeo. It also has to compete with Victini and Zard X, which are much stronger and have wide movepools, unlike the dog who'll basically have Sacred Fire, ExtremeSpeed, Stone Edge and Flare Blitz.

I concur. Entei can burn all of those checks with Sacred Fire, which you fail to make note of. The ability to burn most of its checks close to half of the time is the biggest reason why Entei is so good. Entei is perfectly fine in B-.

EDIT: To avoid double post

Can someone tell me why victini and jirachi are ranked so high?I have never used them yet so I don't really know about them(what the hell is stalltini btw?

And no discussions for doublade to B?

Jirachi is a very capable Pokemon that can handle a majority of common Pokemon in the metagame, most notably Lati@s, Mega Gardevoir, and Greninja lacking Dark Pulse. Magnezone cannot even beat it because Specs HP Fire does not do enough for it to win.

Doublade should rise to B. It is such a useful Pokemon for stall, with the ability to handle Heracross / Medicham / Gardevoir / Pinsir very well, as well as checking other Pokemon, like Hawlucha and Terrakion. It cannot be trapped by Magnet Pull either, because its Ghost typing nullifies all forms of trapping, sans Pursuit. Doublade for B Rank.

It's been a while since my last big post here, so let's get this going. I'm mainly going to react on most of the recent suggestions; a lot has already been said, but I'll try to add my own things.

Thundurus-I (S) → A+ | There's one really simple yet extremely major reason why I support the kami dropping: The metagame has shifted away from its favor. Don't get me wrong; Thundurus-I is still an absolutely fantastic Pokémon that will most of the time pull its weight, just much less than it used to. Pokémon like Mega Manectric and Latios have been on the rise, which can make life difficult for the kami: Mega Manectric can utilize Lightning Rod to absorb any Thunder Waves or Thunderbolts that Thundurus-I uses and raise its Special Attack to become a huge threat after Mega Evolution, while Latios has no trouble at all switching in on any of its offensive moves. In a metagame where hard hitters are everywhere, Thundurus-I can't exactly thrive well, either, thanks to its pitiful bulk.
All in all, while a great Pokémon, Thundurus-I is nowhere near as metagame-defining as it used to be. Drop it to A+.

Latios (A+) → S | Latios is magnificent in the current meta. Its versatility, flexibility and adaptability to just about any kind of team is just astounding: it's bar none the best offensive Defogger in the tier, is an excellent attacker due to the large variety of offensive sets it can run; this enables it to combat a huge amount of Pokémon in OU. Despite the large choice of moves, Latios doesn't suffer from 4MSS, since its team can easily cover for any blind spots in the coverage it runs. This brings forth a factor of unpredictability as well; you don't know which offensive moves it'll run aside from Draco Meteor, so it's all a big guessing game until it reveals its moves. It's unfortunately still Pursuit bait, but with Tyranitar's usage on the decline and the metagame overall shifting to the dragon's favor, Latios is a near-flawless Pokémon as it currently is. It's the best Pokémon in OU. No doubt about that. I feel like its ranking should reflect this position as the absolute best, so Latios should rise to S.

Mega Gardevoir (A) → A+ | I'm really glad it's been brought up again. I feel like some people are really underselling Mega Gardevoir's qualities, namely pressuring defensive teams with its amazing offensive prowess and even giving offensive teams a hard time due to its incredible power. The current state of the metagame is more favorable to Mega Gardevoir than it was before; with Pokémon such as Latios on the rise, which it can check quite easily, as well as Pokémon that can support it well seeing more use, things are definitely looking bright for Mega Gardevoir. Magnezone can trap and KO Steel-types, which are pretty much the only thing giving Mega Gardevoir a lot of trouble, while in return, it can beat some of the Fighting-types that plague Zone. I haven't heard much about the defensive set yet, but I guess it does add more unpredictability to Mega Gardevoir and makes it usable on more kinds of teams. It's just great in the current meta, so it wouldn't hurt moving Mega Gardevoir up to A+.

These were the main suggestions I was gonna stand behind. I'm really on the fence about most others, but I'll list each of them with a very short explanation.

Mega Charizard X | This thing remains a threat to lots of playstyles, but I will admit it's lost its touch over time and it can't exactly find the time to set up on fast teams, not to mention the rise of Rain Offense being harmful to its Fire-type STAB. Sand Offense still hurts it really badly, too. Despite that, though, its Fire/Dragon-type is still incredible and has nigh-perfect, high-power coverage. It can still perform its three roles excellently, just not as excellently as it used to. In the end, I'm fine with it going either way, be it falling to A+ or staying in S.

Azumarill | An excellent Pokémon that's just amusingly easy to slap on teams and has a variety of highly usable sets, but as somebody has pointed out before, none of these sets are really mind-blowing and have some serious flaws. You really have to choose between power and bulk when using Azumarill and while it can fit on a large series of teams, the difference in power and bulk is really noticeable. As with Zard X, this one can go either way.

Just as a final suggestion to spark some more discussion, would Mega Manectric be good and dominant enough to rise to A? It's a highly reliable Electric-type that can do a whole lot on just one team slot and pairs well with many common Pokémon, particularly forming an excellent dual-Intimidate VoltTurn core with Landorus-T. Mega Manectric is one of the best switch-ins on Steel-types; Mega Scizor and Magnezone are both fried by Flamethrower and can't do a terrible lot back. I dunno, it sounds good enough for A in my opinion, but A- is already a good place for it to be.

Also drop Zapdos to C+, it's just bad in the current meta. Latios is ever more common and entirely eclipses it as a Defogger, while both Mega Manectric and Magnezone are better Electric-types and are far better at what they do than what Zapdos tries to do. Sucks as a Flying Spam check compared to Rhyperior and Mega Aerodactyl, too.

Zapdos has a niche of being a Defogger that can beat Bisharp, as well as being a good check to Mega Pinsir that is not trapped by Magnezone, but I agree that such niches are not enough to warrant B- rank, because it is bad at everything else.

 

[Mistress Remilia]

I completely support the rise of Cobalion and Cofagrigus in D, or maybe even C+ or C, considering freaking EXPLOUD is not D/Unranked.

Cofagrigus: It has a unique defensive niche, with Mummy and extremely good defense.
But it's also a very effective Trick Room Setter, and NP Cofag is very effective, due to him having good power and bulk.
While Trick Room Teams aren't like, dominating the OU meta, Cofagrigus is probably by far the best Ghost setter you could use in the tier, which is a good enough niche to justify a place in at least D, or even C- or C.

Cobalion: Due to a better typing and bulk and the access to Volt Switch, it's not completely outclassed by Terrakion, and can be used effectively in Volt Turns Teams, supporting the D Rank too.

 

[Lum_Beri]

I would like to nominate Porygon2 for C+. Its defenses are extraordinary, and it's BoltBeam coverage is quite decent (personally, I run Discharge over TBolt for extra parahax). It can RecoverToxic stall out quite a few things, and if it can avoid catching a crippling status condition such as Paralysis or Toxic, it can stay in and whittle away at an opponent's HP for days. It also has a wonderful niche in its trace ability. It can switch into Lando-T and Gyarados with nothing to fear, get the Intimidate drop, and hit them with Ice Beam or Thunderbolt/Discharge respectively (or predict the switch and Toxic whatever the opponent switches into). If it switches into Gliscor's Toxic, it becomes nearly invincible gaining the benefits of Poison Heal. Tracing Prankster lets it Recoverstall endlessly unless Toxic'd.
Its Defensive spread allows it to survive Keldeo's Secret Sword, and almost wall an unboosted zRdX. While it is crippled by Knock Off, and walled by Chansey that run Heal Bell (which is most Chansey), it can nipple all over Lando, checks Azu and Lati@s, and gives zRdX the finger.
I think it deserves higher that C, but I don't think it should go too much higher than C+ (at best, it is B+).

A Coupla' Calcs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 216-254 (57.7 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 99-117 (26.4 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 138-163 (36.8 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 87-105 (23.2 - 28%) -- 86.3% chance to 4HKO
-1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 57-67 (15.2 - 17.9%) -- possible 6HKO

0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 324-384 (84.8 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 248-296 (70.4 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Garchomp: 344-408 (96.3 - 114.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

 

[Alfalfa]

Regarding Azumarill:
Okay, so I have come to a realization. Assault Vest Azumarill does well against offense, but against balance and stall, it wishes it could be stronger to bust through things like Slowbro, or even faster so it could beat Mew and Rotom-W. It patches up weaknesses to offense, but cannot do squat to balance and stall teams aside from spamming Knock Off, where it still loses to Skarmory / Ferrothorn / Venusaur. At least something like Keldeo can spam Scald just to break through its checks, whether they are offensive or defensive, but I guess I am cherry-picking an argument here, because Keldeo's ability to do such at the cost of very little is not something many Pokemon can do.

I would like to nominate Porygon2 for C+. Its defenses are extraordinary, and it's BoltBeam coverage is quite decent (personally, I run Discharge over TBolt for extra parahax). It can RecoverToxic stall out quite a few things, and if it can avoid catching a crippling status condition such as Paralysis or Toxic, it can stay in and whittle away at an opponent's HP for days. It also has a wonderful niche in its trace ability. It can switch into Lando-T and Gyarados with nothing to fear, get the Intimidate drop, and hit them with Ice Beam or Thunderbolt/Discharge respectively (or predict the switch and Toxic whatever the opponent switches into). If it switches into Gliscor's Toxic, it becomes nearly invincible gaining the benefits of Poison Heal. Tracing Prankster lets it Recoverstall endlessly unless Toxic'd.
Its Defensive spread allows it to survive Keldeo's Secret Sword, and almost wall an unboosted zRdX. While it is crippled by Knock Off, and walled by Chansey that run Heal Bell (which is most Chansey), it can nipple all over Lando, checks Azu and Lati@s, and gives zRdX the finger.
I think it deserves higher that C, but I don't think it should go too much higher than C+ (at best, it is B+).

A Coupla' Calcs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 216-254 (57.7 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 99-117 (26.4 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 138-163 (36.8 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 87-105 (23.2 - 28%) -- 86.3% chance to 4HKO
-1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 57-67 (15.2 - 17.9%) -- possible 6HKO

0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 324-384 (84.8 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 248-296 (70.4 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Garchomp: 344-408 (96.3 - 114.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

On balance, the most common Pokemon that are going to switch in on Pory2 are Venusaur and Ferrothorn, Pokemon that can take advantage of Pory2 because they do not care about Toxic and Bolt Beam and can get over Paralysis, rather than bulky Ground types that are threatened by Ice Beam. Pory2 has base 105 Special Attack, so of course its Ice Beam is going to hit Ground-types that are 4x weak to it hard. I will admit that not needing to invest it nice, but Venusaur can still fish for Poison with Sludge Bomb, Ferrothorn can Leech Seed you, and Azumarill can just Knock Off its Eviolite, giving its team more room to bust through Porygon2. I will not contest your nomination, I feel like I should point these things out.

 

[Golden009]

I can't seem to access the Greninja thread from the OP. It just sends me to the Charizard-X thread. Any help?

 

[Alfalfa]

I can't seem to access the Greninja thread from the OP. It just sends me to the Charizard-X thread. Any help?

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/greninja-qc-1-3.3518197/