You'd be surprises on how many things it can set up; I'll provide calcs when I get home. Pinsir's typing isn't actually too bad if you can keep rocks off the field, as many physical attacks don't hit it super effectively. Also, the mons you mention are checks, not counters. I'll copy/paste the definitions when I can get back to my pc. It's hard to type walls of text on a phone.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)
- Thread starter alexwolf
- Start date
- Status
After reading your arguments, I really think that Mega Pinsir should stay at A+. With Scarf Lando-T flying around, you have a good opportunity with setting up against non stall teams and sweep if it is weakened (your opponent doesn't have to be "horrible"), or you just damage a couple of mons. It also doesn't have to really take hits, but with the extra boost (even without it), it can come in for free against Knock Offs, Earthquakes or Fighting Moves which aren't uncommon.
The damage calc with Greninja fails to show imo that Mega Pinsir is "weak", because it straight up kills a potential revenge killer after rocks (also Mega Pinsir should sweep late game, so most of the mons on your opponent's side should be weakened by now).
Some random things:
When you want Mega Pinsir to move down you should also mention how Pinsirmag got worse.
Also can we just not use the argument "It has checks/counters, so move it down".
Pinsir in A rank? No way. You can't really call it "frail" on the physical side considering it significantly out-bulks Azumarill in this regard, who's considered pretty bulky. Pinsir is one of the best megas to make a team around, because once its few checks/counters are weakened it can come in and sweep teams with unprecedented ease.
Another thing I want to bring up is that Pinsir doesn't need to boost. A lot of times when it comes in for free I can just click Return and something dies. Its Return is stronger than Choice Band Azumarill's Play Rough, which is enough power to overwhelm almost anything thats not a dedicated wall. It only boosts when it needs to, which is against physical walls who can't do much back.
In my view Pinsir is a great example of an A+ rank Pokemon, and one of the best Pokemon in that rank. I remember back in the days when people didn't prepare for it and it just swept teams by itself. Even though it's over-prepared for nowadays it's still amazing though.
Another thing I want to bring up is that Pinsir doesn't need to boost. A lot of times when it comes in for free I can just click Return and something dies. Its Return is stronger than Choice Band Azumarill's Play Rough, which is enough power to overwhelm almost anything thats not a dedicated wall. It only boosts when it needs to, which is against physical walls who can't do much back.
In my view Pinsir is a great example of an A+ rank Pokemon, and one of the best Pokemon in that rank. I remember back in the days when people didn't prepare for it and it just swept teams by itself. Even though it's over-prepared for nowadays it's still amazing though.
Mega Heracross to A: honestly, Flamer has summed up my thoughts pretty well in his post. I feel like Heracross is easier to play around for Stall now that they adapted to it, it can't get past some of his newfound counters such as Acrobatic Gliscor and doesn't have the option of running Taunt like Mega Gardevoir to prevent his checks to recover. It's still a good Pokemon because, unlike Mega Gard, it can check a bunch of annoying threats such as Bisharp or Excadrill for Offfense, but its speed is pretty lackluster and there I just feel like it's easier to play around, even when you teambuild, for the team archetypes it's supposed to beat (Balance and Stall).
Conkeldurr to B-: Conkeldurr is still a pain for Offensive teams as it's fairly hard to OHKO it with these teams and it will do work in return (often will get a KO, and you can always save it for the clutch Mach Punch late game). It sure has more troubles against Balance, but it's not a complete dead weight either thanks to Knock Off and you can tweak its moveset to damage the kind of balanced core you'd need to weaken in particular. I just think that with the recent surge of Offense thanks to Spikes Greninja and CBB's team popularity, Conkeldurr fares better in the current metagame than in the previous months and should be in B-rank to reflect this.
Kingdra to B+: It's probably the best Rain abuser alongside Kabutops. While it doesn't possess Kabu's utility (Talon check, Rapid Spin), it has a really great coverage with two moves and a pretty good natural bulk to completly decimate Offense and even some Balanced teams under rain thanks to Spec Hydropump/Scald. I think it's just as good as Kabutops, and I'd put them in the same subrank, be it B+ or B.
Rhyperior to B+: Rhyperior has a pretty incredible niche for Offense. It's a check for BirdSpams, ZardX and Electrics off the top of my head (which is pretty incredible given how they all destroy Offense). It brings SR to the table and has a naturally good firepower to not completly kill your momentum. It also has one free slot you can tailor for your needs and I'm personnaly a huge fan of Fire Punch to check Bulky Mega-Scizor, but Toxic or Ice Punch are also really good. Its niche is fairly unique and hard to rival with, which makes it so damn interesting when you teambuild.
EDIT: Forgot to mention Garchomp, but I'm honestly completly undecided on it. On one side, I think there are a ton of games where it just sets up SR and die and on the other side, it has that sweet SD SR set to threaten Balance too. I'll just follow the majority there.
Last edited:
I'm somewhat on the fence about where Pinsir belongs but this is only because the Meta is so prepared for it. It has an above average match up against the majority of the A+ to S rank mons imo. But teams are so prepared for Birdspam. I don't have any solid stance on Pinsirs fall but I do think the meta is over prepared for him.
Rhyperior though I can say is a huge boon. Its power allows you to gain momentum after checking multiple physical threats because of his high Atk stat. I think he deserves B+ maybe A- but no higher.
Rhyperior though I can say is a huge boon. Its power allows you to gain momentum after checking multiple physical threats because of his high Atk stat. I think he deserves B+ maybe A- but no higher.
Pinsir is literally one of the most threatening setup sweepers atm and is sure as hell not moving down anytime soon. Very few things can take a +2 return and those that can struggle to stomach a CC. That's not even mentioning Quick Attack, which at +2 revenge kills many faster mons. The decrease in usage of Thund-I is also extremely beneficial as other electric mons like raikou megaman and scarfzone cannot switch in. Pinsir is one of the few mons that consistently worries me from team preview, the other being charizard, so I definately don't see it going anywhere, it's borderline A+/S imo.
Richie BITG
Banned deucer.
I'll get away from Pinsir. But, I will make a concluding statement. It's funny that you guys say the meta is over prepared for him and then proceed to talk about its set up sweeping ability, like it will last a turn against things like Gren or Lando T, both on teams very commonly.
I will stress the point that Pinsir has good Attack and Speed, but even then, check the flaws right now. Get it into your skull. It's ability is great, but it's forced (a little forced) to run Jolly cause things can speed creep it. It now loses on that Nature boost. Also, it's saddening typing really cripples it, weak to common moves. Also, frail. You would think 120 Def is good, but it's HP does not support it. Sure, it can setup on an innocent Chansey, but let me tell you a secret; you guys overrexagerate it's power. It's still has 105 speed. Believe it or not, a +2 Quick Attack doesn't even 100% KO Greninja, which is pathetic. Finally, the meta isn't in his favor. He doesn't like anything faster than it (fast sweepers are popular right now, but not HO) and forces it to die or switch out. Even then, it should stay at A+ because all of the A ranks just suck. It has no purpose there. If better pokemon were there, it would probably be A, but probably not.
All in all, Flamer got it pretty well on the nail, too.
I will stress the point that Pinsir has good Attack and Speed, but even then, check the flaws right now. Get it into your skull. It's ability is great, but it's forced (a little forced) to run Jolly cause things can speed creep it. It now loses on that Nature boost. Also, it's saddening typing really cripples it, weak to common moves. Also, frail. You would think 120 Def is good, but it's HP does not support it. Sure, it can setup on an innocent Chansey, but let me tell you a secret; you guys overrexagerate it's power. It's still has 105 speed. Believe it or not, a +2 Quick Attack doesn't even 100% KO Greninja, which is pathetic. Finally, the meta isn't in his favor. He doesn't like anything faster than it (fast sweepers are popular right now, but not HO) and forces it to die or switch out. Even then, it should stay at A+ because all of the A ranks just suck. It has no purpose there. If better pokemon were there, it would probably be A, but probably not.
All in all, Flamer got it pretty well on the nail, too.
????????? I dont understand
No, seriously, I dont understand what I "got on the nail." Was fairly sure I was arguing against Pinsirs drop and certainly not because "The A ranks are shit."
That being said, cmon, lay off the guy a bit. I may not agree with a lot of things he says but I respect that he made the decision to try to come back and change his online persona after being banned. Don't discount a line because it comes from a particular person, if someone is clearly trying to change bad habits and everyone keeps rebuking everything on account of the person posting it, it really tears apart what programs like tutoring and battling 101 are about, integrating new players into the forums.
Richie BITG I recommend going to the mentor program before jumping right in again as frankly, your posts still indicate a lack of understanding of the meta and I think a mentor can help this, along with your posting style. Another thing I think will help is not nominating mons out of the blue straight up, discuss the mons alexwolf and the other council members have suggested and you may not be met with as much negativity as before.
That being said, cmon, lay off the guy a bit. I may not agree with a lot of things he says but I respect that he made the decision to try to come back and change his online persona after being banned. Don't discount a line because it comes from a particular person, if someone is clearly trying to change bad habits and everyone keeps rebuking everything on account of the person posting it, it really tears apart what programs like tutoring and battling 101 are about, integrating new players into the forums.
Richie BITG I recommend going to the mentor program before jumping right in again as frankly, your posts still indicate a lack of understanding of the meta and I think a mentor can help this, along with your posting style. Another thing I think will help is not nominating mons out of the blue straight up, discuss the mons alexwolf and the other council members have suggested and you may not be met with as much negativity as before.
Except making alts is strictly prohibited, resulting in an infraction and the banning of the alt. I bet it's even worse for banned people trying to get around it.
Anyway... I actually approve of Rhyperior to B+. While it has competition from Lando-T as a physical tank that can check birdspam and set rocks, it has certain qualities the make it stand out, namely an ice neutrality instead of a 4x weakness, and Solid Rock > Intimidate due to the fact that if the opposing pokemon switches, Lando is suddenly taking surprising amounts of damage for a physical tank. Rhyp also has access to Ice Punch, Toxic, and Fire Punch, letting it hit more (and different) mons. It can even run a RP or Double Dance set. If it didn't have 2 x4 weaknesses and had access to reliable recovery, it'd be A/A+ easily, but he has to make do with them, so B+ seems like the place for him atm.
Not that I don't agree with alts being bad and all but honestly, what sort of punishment do you give to someone who doesn't even have a second account anyway, I see no issue with letting someone after a period of time try to rejoin, if they fuck up again well then they clearly don't fit in
I agree with it moving to B+, but it's still weak to Ice, even after Solid Rock ;)
EDIT: A SR restistance also helps, as most BirdSpam checks are a lot shakier when SR is on the field.
Last edited:
Richie BITG
Banned deucer.
When I meant you "got it on the nail" I really meant that you showed all the positives of MSir.
I think it has its flaws outweighed and its pros (which are still good, but not as they were 3 weeks ago.) Even if I said it looks like A rank material, it seriously is too good for any of them.
I'm sorry for storming up that stuff again, maybe I should be more attentive. Sorry.
Anyways I can see Rhyperior going to B+ just because of its sheer innovation with unique but destructive sets, and the ability to anally destroy Lando T+MMan core (iirc it runs Ice Punch) and birdspam. It is actually really good for a slot as it fills in a lot of roles, and you can stick it on to teams like nothing. You can run a Rhyperior+Azu core, and it would work well. I think it deserves B+.
Going off topic, the reason why I came back was because I felt like I wanted to come back here and have a second chance. I understand I did bad to this thread, but I will change. My idiocity won't change, that's just in me. But, I won't derail and get defensive anymore.
Also, wouldn't you think I would be banned now if such?
I think it has its flaws outweighed and its pros (which are still good, but not as they were 3 weeks ago.) Even if I said it looks like A rank material, it seriously is too good for any of them.
I'm sorry for storming up that stuff again, maybe I should be more attentive. Sorry.
Anyways I can see Rhyperior going to B+ just because of its sheer innovation with unique but destructive sets, and the ability to anally destroy Lando T+MMan core (iirc it runs Ice Punch) and birdspam. It is actually really good for a slot as it fills in a lot of roles, and you can stick it on to teams like nothing. You can run a Rhyperior+Azu core, and it would work well. I think it deserves B+.
Going off topic, the reason why I came back was because I felt like I wanted to come back here and have a second chance. I understand I did bad to this thread, but I will change. My idiocity won't change, that's just in me. But, I won't derail and get defensive anymore.
Also, wouldn't you think I would be banned now if such?
Last edited:
Off Topic: Yes, but if you're legitimately wanting a second chance, and show it, I'm p. sure you could have a successful ban appeal. I'm not against that you're coming back; it's just simply against forum rules to make alts.
On Topic: I actually want to see Cobalion moving up to B-, if only because its niche is widespread enough to not really call it a niche anymore. It's also surprisingly versatile; you can tailor your EVs to check/counter whatever you need it to, and has several support options mixed in with two good bopping STABs. Also, everything that's been said about him before is still completely correct, so I won't reiterate it here
Richie BITG
Banned deucer.
MFW ur the only person on
Anyways
Conkeldurr to B-
When I see Conkeldurr, I get really scared because my team isn't exactly adapted to it. It runs way too much coverages, making switch outs hard to do. Also, it has sets like AV,Guts, etc. to work on its defensive and offensive stats. I honestly think Conkeldurr is an underrated threat; not anti meta, but unprepared for. The few things that can easily switch into it are: Nothing. I can't think of anything off the top of my head because it has so much coverage. Conkeldurr is a force to be reckoned with, and since the meta is forming to other popular strategies, Conk has even more advantage IMO.
Wait till this is the next big thing.
Garchomp to A:
Since Chomp is my favorite pokemon, of course I would say no, but let me say why: it is not a sitting duck with its SR lead. It doesn't die to any lead SR setters besides Mamoswine, and he's passive. He can also set up SD on setup bait like Magnezone, (? I'm so brain dead today I can't think of any more). Let's not neglect its most offensive set: SCARFchomp. Sure, it don't like being locked in one move, but it does like having a great 201 base Speed stat. Now, his attack works great cause with his coverage, few things can destroy it. One thing: he will switch out a lot, and that's why he's kind of hard to use. If you use it right, it's really powerful. All in all, I don't wanna go in depth, but with OK defenses and overall great stat placements and sets, I'd keep this at A+.
Anyways
Conkeldurr to B-
When I see Conkeldurr, I get really scared because my team isn't exactly adapted to it. It runs way too much coverages, making switch outs hard to do. Also, it has sets like AV,Guts, etc. to work on its defensive and offensive stats. I honestly think Conkeldurr is an underrated threat; not anti meta, but unprepared for. The few things that can easily switch into it are: Nothing. I can't think of anything off the top of my head because it has so much coverage. Conkeldurr is a force to be reckoned with, and since the meta is forming to other popular strategies, Conk has even more advantage IMO.
Wait till this is the next big thing.
Garchomp to A:
Since Chomp is my favorite pokemon, of course I would say no, but let me say why: it is not a sitting duck with its SR lead. It doesn't die to any lead SR setters besides Mamoswine, and he's passive. He can also set up SD on setup bait like Magnezone, (? I'm so brain dead today I can't think of any more). Let's not neglect its most offensive set: SCARFchomp. Sure, it don't like being locked in one move, but it does like having a great 201 base Speed stat. Now, his attack works great cause with his coverage, few things can destroy it. One thing: he will switch out a lot, and that's why he's kind of hard to use. If you use it right, it's really powerful. All in all, I don't wanna go in depth, but with OK defenses and overall great stat placements and sets, I'd keep this at A+.
Imo, Conk has 2 major problems that prevent it from being B-somewhere rank:
- It has a bad case of 4MSS. Usually it runs Drain Punch/Mach Punch/Knock Off and either Ice Punch, SE or Poison Jab(?). Depending on the last move, you get hard walled by a large variety of Mons; Fairies if you run Ice Punch (while also being setup fodder for various Megas), Dragons and Fairies if you run SE and Dragons and Birds if you run Poison Jab.
- The metagame has changed. Teams prepare a lot of MegaSaur (Extrasensory on Greninja, Psychic on Thundi-I etc) which is terrible for Conk. The mons it's supposed to wall/check actually beat it. Of course it's still a good switch-in to weaker special attackers such as Rotom-W and Heatran, but there are better options for the teamslot.
Got no opinion on Chomp, since I barely play with it. It's not something that scares me though when I see it in Preview.
Richie BITG
Banned deucer.
I can agree with 4MSS, but first off I'd like to say Passive mons (sadly Thundy I is one of em, #26 in usage may be good but he's hard to stick on teams now) are irrelivent and Gren is one pokemon, although very meta influencing. Honestly, even then MVenu isn't really scary to teams anymore, atleast for me. One thing about the 4MSS is that it will have its strengths and weaknesses, hence why there is such thing as cores.
I may be missing something, cause MVenu doesn't scare me at all and I don't think many people worry about preparing for it, either.
I think Garchomp should be moved to A. Garchomp simply has too much competition with other Pokemon to perform certain roles. For its lead set, it faces competition with Terrakion, who is faster and can Taunt opposing SR setters to prevent them from setting up, and Mamoswine, who is immune to Taunt and can use Endeavor and Ice Shard to wipe out opposing Pokemon. Garchomp's Choice Scarf set is becoming less and less relevant, since DD sweepers are declining. Landorus-T usually outshines Garchomp at this role, because it can use Knock Off and U-Turn to preserve momentum, whilst with Garchomp, both of its STABs have immunities and can be switched in to, forcing Garchomp out. Its SD set is powerful, but Garchomp's lack of priority allows it to be revenge killed. Its bulk somewhat compensates for this though.
I also think Garchomp should be moved to A. It's greatest advantage seems to be that it can run a variety of viable sets, but the problem is that each of these sets is outclassed. Its lead set is outclassed, its choice scarf set is outclassed, and its sweeping sets are heavily outclassed as well. In the X/Y meta, with its huge amount of Fairy and Flying types, the Greninja's, the Ice priority, and the fact that both of Garchomp's STABS have immunities, Garchomp can't thrive like it used to. It's a solid Pokemon, yes, but doesn't deserve to stand among Azumarill, Thundurus, Clefable and so on.
Ice Priority isn't really a thing in the XY meta, at least not compared to the ORAS meta. Don't let the Mamo/Weavile spam in the ORAS ladder leak into here, because this is still based on the XY meta.
Also, I wouldn't say Garchomp's lead set is outclassed. Its not A+ worthy, but it's not really outclassed by another lead. Lead sets should not be the reason something is A/S unless it is Deo level good, and no dedicated lead now is at that level. That also applies to Mamoswine, it's lead set is legit good but the LO Freeze-Dry set is what makes it A Rank. My point is that Garchomp's lead set really has very little impact on it's ranking in the A/A+ discussion.
Last edited:
Uh how in the world is Thundurus-I passive in any way?
Last edited:
Well I would guess the same way as "he's hard to stick on teams now" and "MVenu isn't really scary to teams anymore".
There is more in the world than sweepers. MegaSaur is an amazing offensive tank that counters/checks a large amount of threats. If you build around BD Azu, you really want to pack something that can defeat MegaSaur, or Azu won't be sweeping anytime soon.
The vibe behind Mega Venusaur may have died down, but it still is an amazing tank that can check a lot of top threats, such as Keldeo, Azumarill, pretty much every Electric sans the rare Thundurus-T (which almost always carries HP Flying), Breloom, you name it, MVenu can go head-to-head with almost every threat in OU, sans Talonflame, Pinsir, KyuB, and Psychics.
Tentacruel for C / C+. Specially defensive Tentacruel with Scald / Knock Off / Rapid Spin / Acid Spray is a very cool set. It counters Greninja without Extrasensory and can even get rid of Spikes, completely shutting down both common Greninja sets, and also checks / counters Clefable, Mega Venusaur, LO Gengar, Heatran, Politoed, Kingdra, Omastar, Keldeo, Amoonguss, Chesnaught, and Azumarill, and has tons of utility thanks to Rapid Spin, Scald, and Knock Off. It also has two very decent abilities, the first of which allows it to become a hard counter to Mega Venusaur, which is unable to heal with Giga Drain, gets burned by Scald, and eventually Synthesis is pp stalled, while Rain Dish turns Tentacruel into an amazing check to rain teams. Also, it should be noted that Tentacruel beats two of the best SR setter for balanced and bulky offensive teams, Heatran and Clefable, while keeping your own hazards intact, making it a great partner to any SR weak Pokemon.
- Status