XY UU Beta Discussion (Read post #32)

[Arkian]

Now that Drizzle is gone, I have been using Hippowdon + Choice Band Stoutland since sand is the next best weather (most balanced weather imo) and Stoutland is just such a boss now that it has that juicy base 110 Attack stat. I use Stoutland as either a early-game wallbreaker or a late-game sweeper. As a wallbreaker, I usually switch Hippowdon in on a move it can stomach, set up Stealth Rock, and then either just leave it as a death fodder if I don't see anything on the opposing team it needs to deal with, or preserve it by switching into one of my two other defensive mons (I use AV Metagross and Latias btw). Sooner or later (but the sooner the better), Stoutland comes in and just starts to utterly destroy everything, for example, it always 2HKOes 252/252+ Eviolite Chansey after Stealth Rock with just Return (Superpower shouldn't be used in this case, since it also only 2HKOes and has those nasty drops :o). With Chansey gone, I can sweep with my Thundurus-T or Latias late-game with little to no worries. The only thing that stops me are annoying Ghost-types since I can't spam Return, but in that case, I use Stoutland as a late-game cleaner. The latter is a bit harder to do, since you not only gotta preserve Stoutland, you also gotta preserve Hippowdon so it can set up the sand, as without the sand, Stoutland is fairly easy to revenge kill

Also, I have been using this set with a lot of success recently:

Metagross @ Assault Vest
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 44 Spd / 212 HP
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Bullet Punch
- Earthquake
- Zen Headbutt

Now I know that many people have already talked about Assault Vest Metagross, but I'll go into more detail here and also offer up an EV spread that you might be interested in. Metagross checks many of the top threats in the metagame, such as Mega Gardevoir, Latias, and Keldeo among others. Assault Vest combined with Metagross's already fantastic base 130 Defense enables it to act as an amazing mixed wall who also has a threatening offensive presence. For example, Mega Gardevoir only has a 4% chance to 2HKO with Shadow Ball while Metagross always OHKOes with Meteor Mash. Speaking of which, Meteor Mash allows Metagross to OHKO every common Fairy in the metagame (Florges, [Mega]Gardevoir, and Whimsicott), in fact, the only Fairy-type that Meteor Mash can't always OHKO is 252/252+ Granbull, although it sill has a 12.5% chance to do so (Intimidate doesn't affect it due to Clear Body!). Also, if Metagross gets the Attack boost from Meteor Mash (common), then it is going to wreck pretty much everything. Bullet Punch provides a reliable form of priority, letting Metagross deal with Weavile after Stealth Rock, a Pokemon that Metagross would otherwise fear. Earthquake is there to hit the good ol' Steel-types, almost always OHKOing Bisharp as well as dealing respective damage to other Metagross, do note that you need to hit them on the switch for this to happen, as Bisharp is faster than you and speed ties can ruin your chances against other Metagross. More importantly, Earthquake deals with Fire-types such as Victini, Mega Houndoom, and Darmanitan, but again, you need to hit them on the switch or all but Mega Houndoom will win. Zen Headbutt is a useful secondary STAB that lets you obliterate Keldeo, Dragalge, and Toxicroak, even though the latter two aren't that common. As for the EV spread, 44 Speed EVs are used to outspeed Mega Heracross that invest solely in HP and Attack by one point, so Metagross can win against them due to Zen Headbutt 2HKOing while Mega Heracross failing to 2HKO back. Obviously, Metagross has its faults, and the most important one is its new-found weakness to Dark-types. This makes Mega Metagross extreme Knock Off-bait, and allows for Bisharp, Sharpedo, and Honchkrow to deal with it. Furthermore, because it's running Assault Vest, Sucker Punch will always hit it and you can't play mind games around that (not that it would work anyway..), and the fact that these things are really common in the metagame definitely degrade Metagross; despite this, Metagross is still a potent threat that every team must prepare for.

Also, can we please not talk about the tiering of Pokemon like Kangaskhan, Mawile, and Pinsir; it's really annoying because those three are very irrelevant, since if their Mega stones are not banned (aside from Kanga ofc), they'll be OU, and if they are banned, they'll drop from UU and most likely have no viability here.

 

[Srn]

Relaxed gives Aggron a much higher stat boost overall since its defense base stat is way higher than its Special Defense's.

You have 230 base defense and the ability filter, not to mention you'll be boosting your defense even further. Investment in defense is certainly not necessary, imo go full sp. def. Unless I'm missing some specific hit you live at +0/+1 that is important, which is why I'm asking

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

While I haven't completely tried out Sand yet, I can definitely see Hippowdon+Stoutland being a very effective duo. HippoLand teams were really good back in BW2 OU, and I can definitely see Stoutland performing pretty well as a great revenge killer in Sand thanks to great Speed under it, passable bulk, and a strong Attack stat backed by great coverage. Stoutland was great in last gen's OU (even though it was completely useless in all of the lower tiers), and hence I can see this doing well.

Mega Gardevoir and Mega Heracross are the two strongest Mega Evolutions in UU right now from my experiences, and are definitely two of the better Pokemon to use. Pixilate Hyper Voice from Mega Gardevoir is stupidly powerful, and Gardevoir also has great coverage options to back up that Hyper Voice. Focus Blast hits most Steels except AV Escavalier and Metagross, and Psyshock also hits Roserade, the Nidos, and Scolipede. Mega Gardevoir also has good special bulk to come in, and overall Mega Gardevoir is a strong threat. I believe several others have covered my thoughts on Mega Heracross, since it hits hard and is bulky, although admittedly it is slow.

Anyways, since why not, I guess I'll post about a couple of threats.

Krookodile @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Stone Edge
- Pursuit

I have been testing out Scarf+Moxie Krookodile on a Hyper Offense team of mine, and from the looks of it Krookodile is still as effective as ever. Krookodile got a couple of neat buffs this gen, including the Knock Off buff, which gives it a more powerful and reliable STAB move to smack around Pokemon weak to the move, and the item loss is also pretty awesome. The extra Defense Krookodile got is also kinda helpful, since it can live some more physical hits than before, which is neat too. Earthquake and Knock Off together provide amazing coverage, and along with Krookodile's Speed and Moxie, this thing makes for a very effective late game cleaner. Hazards are rather easy to set up with the Deoxys formes running amok in UU right now, and Krookodile also wrecks Latias, which is great. Knock Off is indeed quite useful, since it hits threats like Latias, Metagross, and the like, and Dark STAB is very good right now. The item loss is definitely great, since this makes Pokemon lose their valuable items, and defensive Pokemon become much easier to overwhelm. Earthquake hits Bisharp pretty hard, among many other threats. Stone Edge is there largely for coverage against Crobat, while Pursuit is very useful because it traps any Pokemon who tries to flee, and Krookodile makes for quite a potent Pursuit trapper. Overall I find this thing pretty good right now, and is definitely worth considering imo.

Escavalier @ Assault Vest
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Megahorn
- Iron Head
- Drill Run
- Knock Off

Escavalier was a very solid Pokemon in last gen's UU, with a great defensive typing to check many threats and a whole lot of power to just hit everything in the tier really hard. Even though it was RU, its combination of typing, power, and bulk made it quite an underrated threat last gen, and was overall very useful from my experiences with it. This gen, Escavalier got a number of buffs which imo make it a Pokemon 100% worthy of UU status right now. Firstly, Assault Vest is a new item that Escavalier utilizes perfectly, since Escavalier's good bulk and typing make it a solid check to a lot of special threats. In addition, the Knock Off buff and Drill Run are both great moves Escavalier has now, which give it new coverage options to smack Ghost- and Fire-types respectively, which makes Escavalier's limited coverage from last gen a complete non issue now. Overcoat is also a great ability which continues to make Escavalier a good sleep absorber, except now that it no longer has to use Sleep Talk to do so. Escavalier is really good in this metagame, checking many threats like Latias, and using its STAB Megahorn to smash everything for extreme damage. Megahorn and Iron Head both provide good STABs, and from Escavalier they have a lot of power. Florges and Gardevoir both cringe to Iron Head, so the move isn't completely useless outside of STAB. Knock Off hits Cofagrigus, and as I said when I was talking about Krookodile, the item loss from Knock Off is simply really good, so defensive mons become easier to overwhelm. Drill Run is there for incoming Fire-types like Ninetales and Houndoom, which is usually pretty good. Overall, Escavalier is a very effective threat in today's metagame imo, and it should definitely reclaim its old UU status.

 

[Wisdomseyes]

Kanghaskhan and Pinsir were NU last gen, there is nothing saying they are going to be NU again, as Sucker Punch even from regular Kangaskhan is decently strong, not OU material based solely on that, but it is a strong priority move with now better coverage. If any bans were to take place they would be item bans like Soul Dew, but since this is an in battle CHANGE, then it won't happen. Please just stop.

Nothing about either of the pokemon has changed, nothing about the new movesets or anything of the sort has really given them an edge on their competition. They are NU this generation as well, as shown very soon when we see where khangaskan gets placed.

 

[Swamp Link]

Nothing about either of the pokemon has changed, nothing about the new movesets or anything of the sort has really given them an edge on their competition. They are NU this generation as well, as shown very soon when we see where khangaskan gets placed.

Okay, here's the deal. A megastone gives a pokemon a new set that it can viably run. It doesn't matter that without this set this pokemon is not OU, because it can run that set. This is comparable to saying that only Dragon Dance Dragonite should be OU and everything else should be UU or whatever. We tier pokemon, not sets. The fact that Pinsir can be Mega-Pinsir and run that set makes it viable in OU just like Dragonite's access to Dragon Dance makes it viable. The thing that has changed about Pinsir or Mawile is that they have a new set that they can run to make them more viable.
(Yes, I know Dragonite has a variety of viable options outside of Dragon Dance, it's just an example to illustrate the fallacy in the argument)

 

[noknuckles]

As a sand sweeper with limited turns, would LO Stoutland be better than Band? Being able to switch between Return, Crunch and Superpower seems to be a good way to make full use of every single sand turn that you get. Being able to just spam Return is appealing, but you need to wait for the rock/steel/ghosts to be dead and with limited sand, you may not get that chance.

It's a shame that Stoutland can't set up its own sand, but Hippo is extremely reliable, and if it uses Smooth Rock, Stoutland has a lot of turns to cause terror. Hippo would like leftovers (who wouldn't) but it can actually do OK with Smooth Rock with its great bulk as well as Slack Off to keep itself alive throughout the match

Okay, here's the deal. A megastone gives a pokemon a new set that it can viably run. It doesn't matter that without this set this pokemon is not OU, because it can run that set. This is comparable to saying that only Dragon Dance Dragonite should be OU and everything else should be UU or whatever. We tier pokemon, not sets. The fact that Pinsir can be Mega-Pinsir and run that set makes it viable in OU just like Dragonite's access to Dragon Dance makes it viable. The thing that has changed about Pinsir or Mawile is that they have a new set that they can run to make them more viable.
(Yes, I know Dragonite has a variety of viable options outside of Dragon Dance, it's just an example to illustrate the fallacy in the argument)

Man, the problem with using examples is that people are gonna argue against the example instead of the actual point. An example you could use is to allow physical Greninja in UU. It wouldn't break the tier to allow physical Greninja in, but tiering move sets and item use separately would be too complicated

 

[Swamp Link]

Well, Stoutland is actually a decent bulky band user by itself outside of sand. It's outclassed and there's no reason to run it on a non-sand team, but it's not dead weight if you don't have sand up at the moment, because 110 attack with an adamant nature is quite good, 80 is a reasonable speed tier, and 85/90/90 bulk is also solid. So I think you're best off using leftovers on Hippowdon because he can come in over and over and probably will need to, since he just deals with a lot of the threats in the metagame anyway.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

If the spinners of OU drop, Tentacruel, Forry, and Donphan, do you guys think Spin Blockers will be more viable? Or will defog still reign the better options for balanced teams?

 

[Srn]

People seem to be doing it, so w/e, let's talk about something I've had relative success with.

Poliwrath @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Relaxed Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Circle Throw
- Scald/Toxic

This guy takes physical hits like a boss, that's all that really needed to be said. Rest-talk gives him the role of a status absorber and the main physical wall for a team. He can check many common threats running around like mega heracross, doublade, kabutops, unboosted mega absol, arcanine, bisharp, cobalion, crawdaunt, scrafty, the list goes on and on. He's especially appealing for being able to switch into bisharp or crawdaunt and do whatever the hell it wants, even after an SD. Circle throw works best with hazards, but works fine without them as well; it provides some nice chip damage to switch-ins expecting to force a switch. Scald is obviously there to burn the hell out of the opponent, and works beautifully at times. Toxic is an alternative, but it's worth noting that you will not be able to touch doublade if you do this.

His stats are sort of mediocre, but don't let that fool you. His excellent water/fighting typing grants him resistances to fire, water, ice, bug, rock, steel, and dark, which is quite a lot. The ev spread is just to maximize his walling potential; I lowered speed as both scald and circle throw are important moves, but you can go impish if you value his speed or decide to go with toxic. He also functions as a good phazer that cannot be beaten by taunt+set up tactics, and his decent-ish speed may allow him to occasionally phaze before he gets phazed.

He has troubles with fairies, especially mega gardevoir, so steel types are good partners for this guy, like metagross, bisharp, cobalion, those guys. They also provide a nice flying resist and psychic resist. Anything that wants dark and rock types gone can benefit from poliwrath's presence, so using fire or psychic types alongside him is not a bad idea either. In turn, fire types can get rid of grass and psychics get rid of poisons that poliwrath can't do much to.

 

[ShiningRarity]

People seem to be doing it, so w/e, let's talk about something I've had relative success with.

Poliwrath @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Relaxed Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Circle Throw
- Scald/Toxic

This guy takes physical hits like a boss, that's all that really needed to be said. Rest-talk gives him the role of a status absorber and the main physical wall for a team. He can check many common threats running around like mega heracross, doublade, kabutops, unboosted mega absol, arcanine, bisharp, cobalion, crawdaunt, scrafty, the list goes on and on. He's especially appealing for being able to switch into bisharp or crawdaunt and do whatever the hell it wants, even after an SD. Circle throw works best with hazards, but works fine without them as well; it provides some nice chip damage to switch-ins expecting to force a switch. Scald is obviously there to burn the hell out of the opponent, and works beautifully at times. Toxic is an alternative, but it's worth noting that you will not be able to touch doublade if you do this.

His stats are sort of mediocre, but don't let that fool you. His excellent water/fighting typing grants him resistances to fire, water, ice, bug, rock, steel, and dark, which is quite a lot. The ev spread is just to maximize his walling potential; I lowered speed as both scald and circle throw are important moves, but you can go impish if you value his speed or decide to go with toxic. He also functions as a good phazer that cannot be beaten by taunt+set up tactics, and his decent-ish speed may allow him to occasionally phaze before he gets phazed.

He has troubles with fairies, especially mega gardevoir, so steel types are good partners for this guy, like metagross, bisharp, cobalion, those guys. They also provide a nice flying resist and psychic resist. Anything that wants dark and rock types gone can benefit from poliwrath's presence, so using fire or psychic types alongside him is not a bad idea either. In turn, fire types can get rid of grass and psychics get rid of poisons that poliwrath can't do much to.

I've been running an identical set except using Milotic with Dragon Tail instead of Circle Throw and it's been working pretty well. Bot have their tradeoffs, with Poliwrath having better coverage, reistances, and a harder hitting phazing move and Milotic having better bulk and a harder hitting scald. I think Milotic would fit into more teams since its bulk is substantially larger with Marvel Scale much higher SpD, and a stronger scald, although the ability to threaten dark types like Bisharp (Might not be relevant in the future as I think he'll likely be either moved to OU or BL) is obviously pretty good.

 

[CQC]

I actually found one, which proved to be a cool Pokemon in this metagame:

Granbull @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Thunder Wave
- Heal Bell
- Fire Punch / Earthquake

Great check to Mega Heracross, taking 32.5 - 39% from Adamant 252 Atk Rock Blast and easily 2HKOing back with Play Rough. It also checks a ton of common physical attackers, such as Zygarde, Sharpedo, Haxorus, Mega Medicham, and Mega Absol. Intimidate is great in this meta and so is Heal Bell support. I have been using a Chansey + Mega Blastoise + Granbull core and it has been doing really well, with Mega Blastoise being physically defensive, helping to deal with Knock Off users and countering the only physical Dark-type that Granbull can't handle, Bisharp. This core has Wish, Heal Bell, Rapid Spin, Toxic, Thunder Wave, offering almost everything you would want in terms of support, and is not easy set up bait either, as Granbull and Mega Blastoise have very respectable offensive presence. Throw in a hazard setter, a wallbreaker, and a sweeper, and you have a nice balanced team.

I've had great success with that core. I use a team consisting of chansey, mega-blastoise and granbull (obviously) as well as Latias, Entei and Tangrowth. Chansey has sr and is actually quite a reliable setter in my opinion, so imho you don't need another hazard. The general goal of the team is to spread status, knock items off and get sr up, while denying hazards to the enemy. I don't sweep very often, but most opposing teams just break down sooner or later.
So I wanted to mention these three 'mons specifically:
Entei is mostly just spamming sacred fire, but there really isn't anything that enjoys taking it. What makes it great is that it can support simply by attacking, and, when you dealt with certain enemies, he can actually even get sweeping.
Tangrowth surprised me the most. With AV, he can wall so many things, and nothing likes knock off, and many opponents just deal so pitiful damage that he can even simply stay in and spam giga drain. But even if you miscalculated and he gets hit pretty hard, you just need to repeatedly switch him in and out until he's back at full health(I literally had him going from 1% to 100% that way one time when his survival was crucial)!
Latias already was expected to be great, but I didn't anticipated just HOW GREAT it is. It can run nearly any support move you want it to, and with a physically defensive spread it can easily stay in on non-stabbed pursuits. Though weavile and bisharp like to switch in, a hidden power fighting with 126 spa investment ensures the OHKO should you get them on the switch. Not reliable, sure, but imho a lot better than reflect type since it can do at least do some damage against everything else, too. Additionally, it's one of the few mons that can deal with keldeo no matter what. Roar is also working great on it, too, since most special attackers don't OHKO at +2, while you can deal with physical boosters with a burn.
Latios doesn't seem OP though due to knock-off's and other dark moves prevalence.

Anyway, I really want to know what people think about blastoise. Now in UU, but even more back in OU, he just didn't work for me. His moves aren't really that strong and even with full defensive investment, he still takes quite a lot from neutral STABs, which means that he usually can't switch in more often than appr. three times at most without wish support. He barely actually performs his role of a spinner, and even when he does, he loses more than 50% in the process. So I ended up putting defog on latias, too, because blastoise simply wasn't reliable enough. As of now, he's more of an ... necessary evil on the teams I tried him on because I can't find another mega for a similar role; I even consider running Rest because granbull runs heal bell anyway.
The problem is that thanks to knock off, a mega is pretty much mandatory, and I can't find any decent defensive one in UU.
So, in short:
What experiences did you make with Mega-Blastoise?
Is there any other usable physically defensive Mega in UU you made good experiences with, especially with reliable recover?

 

[mallpal]

i wouldn't say a mega is necessary.

physically defensive amoonguss can switch into a knock off (provided it's not a +2 bisharp), tank a neutral stab hit, spore, and switch out to get back into usable territory with regenerator. it's served me well.

by the way, why have i been running into galvantula on the ladder?

 

[CQC]

i wouldn't say a mega is necessary.

physically defensive amoonguss can switch into a knock off (provided it's not a +2 bisharp), tank a neutral stab hit, spore, and switch out to get back into usable territory with regenerator. it's served me well.

by the way, why have i been running into galvantula on the ladder?

Yeah true, me too. Though galvantula is incredibly easy to deal with, so I don't mind.
About knock-off: If we are only speaking about surviving a knock-off, granbull and tangrowth can easily switch into one, too. But it sucks to lose the item.

 

[DiscoDucky]

If the spinners of OU drop, Tentacruel, Forry, and Donphan, do you guys think Spin Blockers will be more viable? Or will defog still reign the better options for balanced teams?

As long as Latias stays UU, Defog will most of the time is a better option.

 

[ryan]

That's incredibly false. There are a lot of advantages to using Rapid Spin over Defog. The most obvious one is that Rapid Spin does not remove the hazards you set. This is especially notable for Sticky Web teams in need of some kind of hazard removal. Because all Sticky Web users are awful Pokemon and contribute little to nothing in terms of team synergy, it's easy to sacrifice them early on in the match. Rapid Spin is your only viable method of hazard removal for these teams for this very reason. You also don't have to worry about Bisharp coming in on Rapid Spin and snagging a +2 Attack boost. This is especially notable when using Latias because it offers a pretty much free switch to Bisharp and a +2 Attack boost.

Mega Blastoise is also just generally a really good Pokemon anyways. Being able to check Bisharp is a huge deal, and it hits really hard with Mega Launcher-boosted Aura Sphere and Dark Pulse.

Also, I asked Zarel to remove Galvantula, so hopefully that will be done soon.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

The thing is, blastoise is the only usable rapid spin mon in UU while defog has latias, zapdos, flygon and empoleon and theres also magic bounce xatu, taunt deoxys-s, magic coat deoxys d etc. Its not about which move is better, its about how many options you have, thats why rapid spin will be used less than other choices. Also sticky web sucks in this tier so i dont really see this as an argument.

 

[youngjake93]

Aggron (F) @ Aggronite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Relaxed Nature
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Iron Head

monster set. get in and set up. lol at mega heracross trying to revenge. fuck shit up.
much hurt. many deaths.

Why not Heavy Slam? o_O
Heavy Slam does at least as much damage against anything under 290 pounds. Bisharp is only 154 pounds, so Heavy Slam does the full 120 BP.

 

[Patrick1088]

Im surprised that nobodys mentioned the muskeeteers as deterrents to spam knock off. Cobalion is a check to bisharp thanks to that massive def. It can set up sub sd and go to town. Even virizion can check bisharp with close combat. Even though rain is gone keldeo is a great counter too resisting both stab moves in water/fighting coverage

 

[Wisdomseyes]

Okay, here's the deal. A megastone gives a pokemon a new set that it can viably run. It doesn't matter that without this set this pokemon is not OU, because it can run that set. This is comparable to saying that only Dragon Dance Dragonite should be OU and everything else should be UU or whatever. We tier pokemon, not sets. The fact that Pinsir can be Mega-Pinsir and run that set makes it viable in OU just like Dragonite's access to Dragon Dance makes it viable. The thing that has changed about Pinsir or Mawile is that they have a new set that they can run to make them more viable.
(Yes, I know Dragonite has a variety of viable options outside of Dragon Dance, it's just an example to illustrate the fallacy in the argument)

I don't understand why people don't think I know that.

I am not trying to tier movesets. I am trying to tier the stones themselves, since in the past we have tiered items because they made drastic changes to the pokemon.

The Latis WHERE tiered by the ITEM. (and mind you still are)
MEGA gengar was ban. Gengar was left alone to do whatever he wanted to.
MEGA Khangaskan was ban. Khangaskan was left alone to do whatever he wants to.

Banning from OU and Banning from specific tiers are the exact same thing. Banning Mawileite from UU will make, get this, Megamawile an OU pokemon and Mawile a UU pokemon. Then, yes you will start the game as mawile, BUT that isn't against the rules in the way tiering works (you are allowed to use lower tier pokemon in higher tier matchmaking)

It has been done before and in the last 2-3 months it has been done twice. ALL I said was I was shocked that the megastones weren't being put on the list and all I get is "you are stupid for trying to ban movesets"

This isn't saying "If we stop Kyogre from using water moves we can use it in OU", this is an alternate form of a pokemon. I am not commenting to change anyone's mind here, since most of the opinions of anyone reading this mean nothing to what is actually going to happen... all I said was I was surprised.

NOTE: Please for the love of god no one reply with something stupid like "Well if we ban Choice band from {X} then it would be a lower tier too!". The items I am refering to aren't available to every pokemon in the game... they change base stats and abilities... ect. This isn't an item ban I am talking about, it is a pokemon ban that can only be done by tiering items.

 

[Anty]

I don't understand why people don't think I know that.

I am not trying to tier movesets. I am trying to tier the stones themselves, since in the past we have tiered items because they made drastic changes to the pokemon.

The Latis WHERE tiered by the ITEM. (and mind you still are)
MEGA gengar was ban. Gengar was left alone to do whatever he wanted to.
MEGA Khangaskan was ban. Khangaskan was left alone to do whatever he wants to.

Banning from OU and Banning from specific tiers are the exact same thing. Banning Mawileite from UU will make, get this, Megamawile an OU pokemon and Mawile a UU pokemon. Then, yes you will start the game as mawile, BUT that isn't against the rules in the way tiering works (you are allowed to use lower tier pokemon in higher tier matchmaking)

It has been done before and in the last 2-3 months it has been done twice. ALL I said was I was shocked that the megastones weren't being put on the list and all I get is "you are stupid for trying to ban movesets"

This isn't saying "If we stop Kyogre from using water moves we can use it in OU", this is an alternate form of a pokemon. I am not commenting to change anyone's mind here, since most of the opinions of anyone reading this mean nothing to what is actually going to happen... all I said was I was surprised.

The difference with latwins is that soul dew is broken and should be banned to ubers, they wouldnt have enough usage to go to ubers, whilst pinsir and mawile, if you ban only their item, they would still have ou usage.

Edit: Also, you have asked this question a lot and have been given decent answers, it wont make a difference if you keep asking, just drop it.

 

[Jellied Eels]

Okay so this was more relevant before the Manaphy and Kyurem-B quickbans but Toxic Spikes are surprisingly good in this meta. There are little to no grounded Poison-type mons being used (I've only encountered a couple of Nidoqueens) so they have to be removed manually. Of course every team has like Bisharp and/or Latias which don't really care but since you only need one layer pretty much, and all the popular spinners are grounded (Mega-Blastoise especially hates the residual damage since it has no recovery), they can be far more useful than regular Spikes. I guess what I really like about them is that they punish a popular team archetype right now (Deoxys-S + 5 setup sweepers) and just generally make Substitute a liability. Putting a timer on Mega-Hera is really cool too I guess ?_? Here are two really good setters:

Roserade @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Sludge Bomb
- Sleep Powder
- Toxic Spikes
Roserade packs a ridiculous punch, is a soft check to Keldeo, and a solid Bulky Water and Fairy switch-in. Sludge Bomb does 50%+ to Latias but I guess you can run Hidden Power Fire or something.

Scolipede @ Focus Sash / Black Sludge
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Spd / 192 HP / 64 Atk
Jolly Nature
- Baton Pass
- Megahorn
- Toxic Spikes
- Spikes / Protect
The utility Scolipede brings is just amazing when the tier is full of slow and bulky wallbreakers. 64 Atk guarantees a kill on 252 SpA / 252 Spe Timid Latias which not a lot of hazard setters can boast.

 

[TPO3]

I don't understand why people don't think I know that.
The Latis WHERE tiered by the ITEM. (and mind you still are)
MEGA gengar was ban. Gengar was left alone to do whatever he wanted to.
MEGA Khangaskan was ban. Khangaskan was left alone to do whatever he wants to.

I think you're forgetting a key aspect of tiering: Tiers are decided based on How much a pokemon is used, not how good a pokemon is or isn't. We can ban Mawilite and Pinsirite from UU, but it won't change anything because the two of them are still very popular pokemon. If you look at this thread right here, you'll notice anything BELOW 3.4% usage is what fell to the UU tier. Pinsir and Mawile have MORE usage than this, so even if we ban their items, they will still be in OU because enough people use them. I'm sure Mawile without Mawilite would fit just fine in UU without being overpowered, but because tiers are decided based on how much a pokemon is used, it won't drop to UU. It's just like Last generation where people really wanted Donphan and Metagross to drop to UU because they would have fit perfectly in the tier, but they were popular enough to stay in OU.

The thing is, blastoise is the only usable rapid spin mon in UU while defog has latias, zapdos, flygon and empoleon and theres also magic bounce xatu, taunt deoxys-s, magic coat deoxys d etc. Its not about which move is better, its about how many options you have, thats why rapid spin will be used less than other choices.

...That's the whole point of the question being asked, lol.

If the spinners of OU drop, Tentacruel, Forry, and Donphan, do you guys think Spin Blockers will be more viable? Or will defog still reign the better options for balanced teams?

Yes you're right in saying that right now, rapid spin is only viable on one pokemon really, and that the options you have a really limited. But if other options drop, Rapid Spin is easily a viable option. The only type that stops Rapid Spin is ghost, and while things like Hitmontop just get rolled over, OU Spinners for the most part have a way to couter them. Forry can Volt Switch out to keep momentum, and potentially even just go right into a pursuiter. It could also carry Earthquake to hit Chandelure as it switches in. Donphan has enough offensive presence with STAB Earthqauke as well as Assurance as a coverage move that it might keep ghost-types off the field entirely. Tentacruel isn't quite as lucky since it only has toxic, but it would still beat Chandelure.

If OU Spinners were to drop, I would love to try and find space for one of them on my team, because as Treecko said, You get to keep all the hazards on your opponent's side of the field, which is kind of huge on teams that use more than just Stealth Rock, and especially huge on teams that use Sticky Web. BTW, Sticky Web is not terrible in this tier, it's extremely good. It's just that the only pokemon in this tier that have access to it are like Smeargle and Ariados, which are both shitty pokemon.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

Are we allowed to talk about potential bans in this thread, or no?

And I feel like Defog is very useful when you put it against the current UU spinners, but that's just me.

 

[Patrick1088]

Okay so this was more relevant before the Manaphy and Kyurem-B quickbans but Toxic Spikes are surprisingly good in this meta. There are little to no grounded Poison-type mons being used (I've only encountered a couple of Nidoqueens) so they have to be removed manually. Of course every team has like Bisharp and/or Latias which don't really care but since you only need one layer pretty much, and all the popular spinners are grounded (Mega-Blastoise especially hates the residual damage since it has no recovery), they can be far more useful than regular Spikes. I guess what I really like about them is that they punish a popular team archetype right now (Deoxys-S + 5 setup sweepers) and just generally make Substitute a liability. Putting a timer on Mega-Hera is really cool too I guess ?_? Here are two really good setters:

Roserade @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Sludge Bomb
- Sleep Powder
- Toxic Spikes
Roserade packs a ridiculous punch, is a soft check to Keldeo, and a solid Bulky Water and Fairy switch-in. Sludge Bomb does 50%+ to Latias but I guess you can run Hidden Power Fire or something.

Scolipede @ Focus Sash / Black Sludge
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Spd / 192 HP / 64 Atk
Jolly Nature
- Baton Pass
- Megahorn
- Toxic Spikes
- Spikes / Protect
The utility Scolipede brings is just amazing when the tier is full of slow and bulky wallbreakers. 64 Atk guarantees a kill on 252 SpA / 252 Spe Timid Latias which not a lot of hazard setters can boast.

I think the reason you havent seen too many grounded pokes is that rain stopped the usual grounded poison types ie nidos from being as effective. With rain gone you may see more nidoqueens to check mega hera.

You know what i havent seen at all? Staraptor. Flying stab hits so many of these megas hard: medicham heracross and close combat/double edge hits the other megas hard:ampharos, etc..

 

[kokoloko]

Are we allowed to talk about potential bans in this thread, or no?

yes

but keep in kind what I said before: what actually gets banned is 100% up to me and the council I'm putting together. still, i would like to know what the general plays see thinks.

also if I see a level of stupidity that I deem unacceptable regarding what needs to get banned, I will start moderating this thread myself instead of leaving it up to the OM mods (and I'm known to be pretty infraction-happy) :o