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Zapdos (Full Revamp) +

I'm sure everyone will disagree with me but whatever I'm posting anyway.

Dropping the RestTalk set altogether?

Roost is almost always the superior option to Rest-Talk, I guess you can rid yourself of status but more often then not you are exclusively using this Zapdos to absorb Sleep. Furthermore, the "common" Toxic users Zapdos shouldn't really be coming into or staying in on in the first place. Do you ever switch Zapdos into Bissey ? The only common Toxic users I can think of that you'd be switching Zapdos into our Vaporeon and Milotic. Well, only 17.1% of Vaporeon even carry Toxic now and Milotic is BL.

Couldn't I just tag on Sleep Talk on the last slot to the defensive Roost set if I really need a sleep absorber? Hypnosis users took a big hit in Platinum with its reduced accuracy. Sleep Powder users like Roserade don't actually care about Zapdos absorbing the sleep anyway. They are using the time to lay Toxic Spikes so it's not as though Zapdos absorbing the sleep has accomplished anything in that way. Jumpluff will just Sleep you and then Leech Seed you. I would argue by just adding Sleep Talk to the defensive set you would do better against Jumpluff since you'll occasionally get Roost as your choice. Zapdos should already be scaring off Bronzong if it comes in on Stealth Rock in fear of Heat Wave.

I just see Platinum reducing the efficacy of the Rest-Talk set entirely. I believe it could be delegated to Other Options and just slash in Sleep Talk on the defensive set.
 
I'd leave it up Caelum. The reason being is that it still counters those special threats. Even if you were to move it, you'd still need a set that is more special defense oriented. I think rest/roost with sleep talk is still a fine option, even with the reduce in hypnosis accuracy. To be fair, after plat, I did change the set and replaced sleep talk with heat wave...but I kept the special defense evs. And..I think the threats that special def zapdos counters are prominent enough to warrant its own set. Special defense zapdos still plays much much more differently than defense oriented zapdos. Also the existing defensive roost set already has many slashes, and I don't like too many as that makes it way too cluttered. Also, toxic isn't the only status he can rest off. There is always twave..
 
You could simply just mention a more Special Defensive oriented spread in the comments for the defensive Roost set and slash in Sleep Talk like Caelum said. That would pretty much solve all the problems. And I'm pretty much agreeing with everything Caelum has said here.
 
Two things:

There needs to be a rain dance set as already mentioned.

There also needs to be a light screen support set. I've used it to much success on Dragonite, and Zapdos has almost the same special defense minus the 4Xs Ice weakness.

Originally Posted by Colonel M

Well I remember our IRC conversation, so I'll just post what I said there. It mainly discusses the counters and such.

First off, Electivire and Jolteon are hit harder by Heat Wave now.
Secondly, Lanturn must have the warning of a Hidden Power Grass doing a lot of damage to it.
Third, lol Whiscash and Choice Band Spark. Remove please as its NU anyway.

I think that was it.
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Jolteon and Electivire beat Zapdos every time. Lanturn doesn't give a shit about HP Grass either. All three are decent counters.

Also, Choice needs a Choice Specs mention. EDIT: That was added... nvm.
 
The point is, Raikou, that Zapdos has Heat Wave to hit them now. It's still the SAME emphasis that they're counters, but which would you rather use: Hidden Power Ice or Heat Wave, if you could? Surely you would switch out, but we're talking about how Zapdos is retaliating. Same respects with Lanturn.
 
I'm sure everyone will disagree with me but whatever I'm posting anyway.

Dropping the RestTalk set altogether?

Roost is almost always the superior option to Rest-Talk, I guess you can rid yourself of status but more often then not you are exclusively using this Zapdos to absorb Sleep. Furthermore, the "common" Toxic users Zapdos shouldn't really be coming into or staying in on in the first place. Do you ever switch Zapdos into Bissey ? The only common Toxic users I can think of that you'd be switching Zapdos into our Vaporeon and Milotic. Well, only 17.1% of Vaporeon even carry Toxic now and Milotic is BL.

Couldn't I just tag on Sleep Talk on the last slot to the defensive Roost set if I really need a sleep absorber? Hypnosis users took a big hit in Platinum with its reduced accuracy. Sleep Powder users like Roserade don't actually care about Zapdos absorbing the sleep anyway. They are using the time to lay Toxic Spikes so it's not as though Zapdos absorbing the sleep has accomplished anything in that way. Jumpluff will just Sleep you and then Leech Seed you. I would argue by just adding Sleep Talk to the defensive set you would do better against Jumpluff since you'll occasionally get Roost as your choice. Zapdos should already be scaring off Bronzong if it comes in on Stealth Rock in fear of Heat Wave.
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I agree. Sleep Talk gets so little use that it isn't even listen on Doug's stats for Zapdos.

I just see Platinum reducing the efficacy of the Rest-Talk set entirely. I believe it could be delegated to Other Options and just slash in Sleep Talk on the defensive set.
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Slashitis-much e_e

I don't mind seeing the Sleep Talk set gone, but the special defensive EVs that is takes advantage of are something I really think is necessary in not-other-options. The decline in Gengar usage makes those EVs less useful, but it is still a fantastic Shaymin-S counter.


RaikouLover said:
Two things:

There needs to be a rain dance set as already mentioned.
Click to expand...

"Other options"

There also needs to be a light screen support set. I've used it to much success on Dragonite, and Zapdos has almost the same special defense minus the 4Xs Ice weakness.
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If you used it, then why don't you post what you used so that others can test it out, rather than vaguely mentioning a move.



Jolteon and Electivire beat Zapdos every time. Lanturn doesn't give a shit about HP Grass either. All three are decent counters.
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I don't know if you've actually read the thing, but all three are there.
 
I don't think Rain Dance is other options though. We see it on analysis' of other pokemon so why not? Zapdos is one of the better Rain Dancers since it is bulky and does a good job of countering a few things that Rain Dance teams dislike such as Vaporeon and Celebi (it can get Rain up and U-Turn out). Zapdos is one of the better transition pokemon in the game.
 
I don't see why we don't have 2 Defensive Roost sets (one for each spread), then only slash Sleep Talk in the S. Defensive one. Makes sense to me... they "play differently".
 
Chris is me said:
I don't see why we don't have 2 Defensive Roost sets (one for each spread), then only slash Sleep Talk in the S. Defensive one. Makes sense to me... they "play differently".
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I'm okay with this. As I said, the two spreads play differently enough that there really does need to be 2 sets for the 2 spreads. And I think rest/roost/sleep talk slased in on the special set is sufficient enough.
 
So basically, the same set, except with Roost as a primary option instead of Rest. I'm fine with that.

Can others weigh in on the Rain Dance set, please?
 
I honestly don't care whether Rain Dance is on the main set or Other Options.

Preferably "other options"
 
<p>An EV spread focused on Special Defense is recommended here, as many of the Pokemon you are trying to absorb Sleep from are special attackers. For example, Gengar will fail to 2HKO with Life Orb Hidden Power Ice or Choice Specs Shadow Ball. Likewise, Zapdos can take attacks from Shaymin-S with ease, with its Life Orb Hidden Power Ice 3HKOing even after Stealth Rock damage.</p>
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That's wrong.

339 SpA, HP Ice, Life Orb vs. 384 HP / 298 SpD Zapdos: 38% - 45% (82% chance to 2HKO w/ Stealth Rock+Leftovers)

372 SpA, HP Ice, Life Orb vs. 384 HP / 298 SpD Zapdos: 42% - 50% (guaranteed 2HKO w/ Stealth Rock+Leftovers)

In other words, Shaymin-S has a very good chance with Life Orb to 2HKO 252 HP / 220 SpD Calm Zapdos with HP Ice after Stealth Rock. Either remove Life Orb or remove Stealth Rock.

rook darkie. Read Jumpman's annoucement! ><
 
Nitpicking as usual. Slash Hidden Power Grass with Hidden Power Ice on the Choice set, Hidden Power Grass is more useful always with Choice Specs, as Hidden Power Ice is no longer needed to OHKO Salamence.
 
[SET]
name: Physically Defensive
move 1: Roost
move 2: Thunderbolt
move 3: Heat Wave / Hidden Power Ice
move 4: Hidden Power Grass /
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
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remove the dash

<p>Thunderbolt serves as Zapdos's most reliable attack. Ground-types are hit for super effective damage with both Hidden Power Grass and Hidden Power Ice. Although it may seem that Ice should be the better choice thanks to high usage of threats such as Salamence and Shaymin-S, Salamence is already 2HKOed by Thunderbolt, meaning it is usually better to hit Swampert, who would otherwise be Zapdos's number one counter. Shaymin-S, along with Scizor, Metagross, and Bronzong, are hit by Heat Wave, which gives good coverage with Thunderbolt and Hidden Power Grass. Hidden Power Ice is still an option<no comma> over Hidden Power Grass; however, it is slightly inferior because of the coverage you lose in exchange for hitting Salamence and Shaymin-S harder. Hidden Power Ice makes a better two-move combination with Thunderbolt if you want to opt for a support move in Zapdos's last slot. Roost is viable and can help recover lost HP due to Life Orb, weather effects, and Stealth Rock. When you are done with sweeping with Zapdos, Baton Pass is a decent option in the last slot so that your Agility can be put to better use by a teammate.</p>
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I hope you can figure out what is wrong there.

That's all, despite the fact I think the SubPass set is unneeded.
 
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Although Zapdos has superb Special Attack and better-than-average defenses, its mediocre Speed can cause it some trouble in a metagame filled with faster threats and enemy Pokemon equipped with Choice Scarf. This slight problem, however, can be fixed with the use of Agility, allowing it to outspeed virtually every threat in the metagame.</p>
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icon1.gif
Zapdos (Full Revamp)
[SET]
name: Physically Defensive
move 1: Roost
move 2: Thunderbolt
move 3: Heat Wave / Hidden Power Ice
move 4: Hidden Power Grass /
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>With only two weaknesses, good stats overall, Roost for recovery, and Pressure to waste opponents' PP, this Zapdos makes a great tank. You can come in with relative safety on many of the top OU sweepers, including Metagross, Heracross, Lucario, and Gyarados, and various tanks and walls like Hippowdon and Gliscor. They can all pack super-effective moves though (a Stone Edge from Heracross, Gyarados, or Lucario is the most threatening), but Zapdos will still survive at least one hit at full health and can Roost off the damage incurred. Make sure that slower Pokemon like Hippowdon and Metagross don't catch on and Earthquake on the same turn Zapdos Roosts, though.</p>

<p>With Heat Wave, Zapdos can run Hidden Power Grass over Hidden Power Ice, losing super-effective coverage on Dragonite, Gliscor, and Salamence, but gaining the ability to beat its biggest counter, Swampert. Heat Wave hits Steel types such as Magnezone, Scizor, and Metagross for super-effective damage. However, if you wish to use only two attacks and a support move such as Roar in the last slot, it is warned to use Hidden Power Ice to obtain better coverage with only two moves. Be advised that to beat Scizor, Heat Wave is needed, or Scizor can Roost off the damage dealt by a neutral Thunderbolt. As for other support options that are viable over Heat Wave, Zapdos has access to Thunder Wave, Light Screen, Toxic, and U-turn, all of which are about equally useful, depending on what your team needs. Discharge is a decent option over Thunderbolt to incur status on your opponent's team, especially considering that Zapdos's handy bulkiness allows it to attack quite often.</p>

<p>The EV spread is focused on Defense to absorb hits from the Pokemon mentioned in the opening paragraph. This makes Zapdos one of the most reliable Scizor counters, resisting all of its standard attacks and hitting back with a super-effective Heat Wave.</p>


[SET]
name: Specially Defensive
move 1: Roost
move 4: Sleep Talk / Light Screen
move 2: Thunderbolt / Discharge
move 3: Heat Wave / Hidden Power Ice
item: Leftovers
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 220 SpD / 36 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This is similar to the Defensive Roost set mentioned above, but due to a spread focused more on Special Defense, it plays much differently. This makes switching into Shaymin-S and Heatran much easier, sponging neutral or resisted attacks then Roosting off the damage. Be careful of Seed Flare's Special Defense drops from Shaymin-S, though, as you will be worn down eventually before you can stall it out of PP. In addition to Heatran and Shaymin-S, Zapdos also makes a good switch-in to special threats such as Yanmega, Gengar, Milotic, Roserade, and Togekiss. In particular, Gengar will fail to 2HKO with Life Orb Hidden Power Ice or Choice Specs Shadow Ball. Likewise, Zapdos can take attacks from Shaymin-S with ease, with its Hidden Power Ice 3HKOing even after Stealth Rock damage.</p>

<p>With a specially defensive spread, Zapdos can come in on many common sleep inducers with very little risk, making Sleep Talk a great option. The list includes Yanmega, Gengar, Milotic, Roserade, Bronzong, and Breloom (watch out for the occasional Stone Edge, though). If Sleep Talk doesn't appeal to you, a support move such as Reflect, Roar, or Toxic can work in that slot; Light Screen gets special mention as it can work to sponge special attacks even better. Roost is Zapdos's best option for healing, as it is a quite reliable method of recovery. </p>

<p>Discharge is a pretty good alternative over Thunderbolt on this Zapdos. The low damage output doesn't really hinder Zapdos much as it isn't sweeping anything with a set like this anyway, and the 30% paralysis rate is welcome. Stick with Thunderbolt if your team is carrying Toxic Spikes though. Heat Wave is useful on this set to allow to to beat Steel-types, the aforementioned, sleep-inducing Pokémon, and prominent special attackers such as Shaymin-S. Hidden Power Ice can be used, as it hits many of Zapdos's Fire-weak targets as well, but Heat Wave's ability to hit threats such as Scizor in a pinch makes it a more practical option. </p>


[SET]
name: Offensive
move 1: Thunderbolt
move 2: Heat Wave
move 3: Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Ice
move 4: Roost
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Offensive Zapdos can be quite a threat to teams that expect a weaker, more defensive Zapdos. The given attacks provide surprisingly good coverage in OU and with Zapdos's massive Special Attack can wreak quite some havoc. Add in the fact that Zapdos is already pretty bulky and has the ability to Roost off damage it takes and you'll find it surprisingly difficult to beat Zapdos.</p>

<p>Life Orb is the recommended item for the extra power, but Leftovers is somewhat viable as well for the extra bulk. If Swampert is of little concern Hidden Power Grass can be dropped for Hidden Power Ice for a psuedo-BoltBeam combo.</p>


[SET]
name: Choice
move 1: Thunderbolt
move 2: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Grass
move 3: Heat Wave
move 4: U-turn
item: Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
nature: Timid
evs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Choice Scarf Zapdos is meant to lead, and is meant to give issues to common leads like Gyarados, Salamence, Gengar, Yanmega, and Ninjask (if they decide not to Protect first turn). If the opposing lead is not a great match up, Zapdos can U-turn away to the appropriate counter. Hidden Power Ice is chosen because it complements the Electric STAB well, and offers the chance to revenge kill Dragonite and Salamence. If defeating Swampert, Rhyperior, and Gastrodon is of absolute importance, Hidden Power Grass can be chosen in this slot as well.</p>

<p>With Heat Wave, Zapdos has a reliable way of revenge killing Scizor, Magnezone, Lucario, and Metagross, as opposed to relying on Thunder Wave to cripple them or just U-turning out.</p>

<p>The EVs given outspeed give 462 Speed, enough to outspeed +Speed Choice Scarf Pokemon with a Base 90 Speed stat, in addition to Jolly Ninjask before a boost. 80 HP allows Zapdos to retain an odd HP stat of 341 to allow it 4 switches into Stealth Rock with 1 HP left over, assuming it doesn't take a hit.</p>
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<p>With Heat Wave, Zapdos can run Hidden Power Grass over Hidden Power Ice, losing super-effective coverage on Dragonite, Gliscor, and Salamence, but gaining the ability to beat its biggest counter, Swampert. Heat Wave hits Steel-types such as Magnezone, Scizor, and Metagross for super-effective damage. However, if you wish to use only two attacks and a support move such as Roar in the last slot, it is warned to use Hidden Power Ice to obtain better coverage with only two moves. Be advised that to beat Scizor, Heat Wave is needed, or Scizor can Roost off the damage dealt by a neutral Thunderbolt. As for other support options that are viable over Heat Wave, Zapdos has access to Thunder Wave, Light Screen, Toxic, and U-turn, all of which are about equally useful, depending on what your team needs. Discharge is a decent option over Thunderbolt to incur status on your opponent's team, especially considering that Zapdos's handy bulkiness allows it to attack quite often.</p>
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all I could find, good job darko
 
As I said to you on IRC, I don't think Sleep Talk should be the option over Light Screen on the "Specially Defensive" set, rather the other way around. The reason is that the point of the set is to be a special tank, not a sleep absorber, and the set should reflect that. However, I'd like some more opinions on that.
 
tennisace0227 said:
As I said to you on IRC, I don't think Sleep Talk should be the option over Light Screen on the "Specially Defensive" set, rather the other way around. The reason is that the point of the set is to be a special tank, not a sleep absorber, and the set should reflect that. However, I'd like some more opinions on that.
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Does it matter that much? I personally think its fine how it is, the user can choose the appropriate move depending on their team.
 
Gastrodon is the one of the less than 5 Pokemon with the Ground / Water type combination, so still deserves a mention
 
About the Rain Dance set, Zapdos has better things to do than Rain Dance. Other Options, because most people reading the analysis aren't focusing on making a Rain Dance team. Sure, it might be good for the role, but Zapdos has other sets that are generally more important.
 
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