Quantity of a type does matter in R/B/Y. The last thing anyone wants is to have their entire squad wiped out by a single boltbeamer...
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Gen 1 6th spot: Rhydon vs. Snorlax
- Thread starter moymoy
- Start date
Defensive quantity might not matter, but offensive quantity does. Look at his team. He already has eggy and Tauros carrying normal type moves, yet only has EQ on one pokemon(Tauros) and has no rock type moves. Essentially, the only downside to using Rhydon is the water, ice, and grass weaknesses that his team covers very well. That is why Rhydon is a better choice.
Alakazam in an expert's hands is one of the best pokemon in RBY. Furthermore, he is a perfect Chansey bait against people like you. The user can send out Alakazam, then immediately send out Tauros/Golem on the incoming Chansey.
As I just posted in another thread, Alakazam is useful as an anti-lead, a special staller, and a wicked late game sweeper. To deny that is folly.
Rhydon is only useful if you're good at predicting Chansey and Alakazam's T-Wave, or if you're worried about the rare Zapdos. Plus, you'd really want them to paralyzed already (which is paradoxical since you don't want their Chansey to be paralyzed.
You don't need two explosion walls. Let your gengar sleep the enemy, then let your gengar get slept and he is now a sleep holder AND an explosion absorber.
Snorlax is amazing.
First of all, "Snorlax is amazing" is not really an argument. Secondly, Rhydon has quite a few uses apart from Explosion blocker. You seem to be forgetting just how hard it hits on the offensive side. Would Rhydon be OU if it was only useful against Chansey, some Alakzam, and Zapdos? I think not. Plus you do not even address my argument. Snorlax offers nothing new to this team whatsoever. It already has Chansey to absorb Special hits, and has Tauros/Rhydon to spread paralysis(assuming he uses Rhydon). As is, it would not even matter if Rhydon's ONLY goal was to block TWave and Explosion, since his team abhors paralysis so much. The simple fact is, Rhydon hits harder, and this is meant to be an offensive team. Therefore, Rhydon is the obvious choice.
@gunbladelad: Quantity of type does matter, however, quantity of type does not matter here.
@waterwizard: I've already addressed Alakazam as a Chansey bait, keep up with me. It's an inferior Chansey/Starmie. Get on my level.
And as far as "experts" go, no one here qualifies. Whatever though, Alakazam still plays second string.
@waterwizard: I've already addressed Alakazam as a Chansey bait, keep up with me. It's an inferior Chansey/Starmie. Get on my level.
And as far as "experts" go, no one here qualifies. Whatever though, Alakazam still plays second string.
Snorlax is better than Rhydon
When using Alakazam as a late-game sweeper, keep it hidden until the late-game. Then, Chansey is not a problem. Irrelevant, really. Golem/Eggy/Gengar/Snorlax should remove Chansey long before you send out Zam.
Borat, I'd prefer not to be on whatever level you think you're on. You're a 2004 RBY has-been.
Okay, I'll do a little explaining. This first part is most important: Rhydon can't 1HKO people with EQ. It usually takes 2 hits (more against Snorlax). Snorlax can 2HKO the same people with Body Slam. See, the net result is that 2 hits kills the enemy. Thus, purely attack-wise, they are equal, right? No. Snorlax kills Rhydon and Golem with surf, and is not weak to Starmie, Lapras, Eggy, Slowbro, and Articuno. Snorlax, being a normal type, has no true counters (with fighting being absent from RBY). Rhydon has many counters and has to do a lot of running, which means a lot of free hits for the enemy to rack up on your team.
Snorlax adds another strong physical attacker to wreak havoc before Tauros finishes things off. Rhydon is dead in 1-2 hits from every single OU pokemon except Zapdos. Snorlax takes 3 to 4 hits to take down, while getting to lay down several 318 stabbed body slams.
As seen above, I have debunked the idea that Rhydon hits harder, because the net result is that it takes 2 hits from both Snorlax and Rhydon to kill the enemy. Do I need to emphasize again that Eggy, Lapras, Slowbro, and Starmie completely wall Rhydon? Rhydon means a free Eggy switch which often ends in Chansey getting blown up on (paving the way for someone like... Zam ;)).
Thus, I suggest Snorlax. Use Chansey for T-Wave absorption, and Gengar for explosion absorption, and rest in the peace that Zapdos is very uncommon these days.
Stop comparing Alakazam to Chansey. Chansey doesn't have a 368 stabbed attack, doesn't CH frequently, and doesn't outspeed everyone in the OU metagame. Starmie and Zam are more similar, but then, Starmie doesn't use psychic, and doesn't outspeed other Starmie and Persian, which Zam does. Furthermore, Alakazam's special is far better than Starmie's, making him a better sweeper once the specified walls (Chansey/Eggy) are removed.
When using Alakazam as a late-game sweeper, keep it hidden until the late-game. Then, Chansey is not a problem. Irrelevant, really. Golem/Eggy/Gengar/Snorlax should remove Chansey long before you send out Zam.
Borat, I'd prefer not to be on whatever level you think you're on. You're a 2004 RBY has-been.
Sam, can't I just say Snorlax is amazing without explaining it ;)
Okay, I'll do a little explaining. This first part is most important: Rhydon can't 1HKO people with EQ. It usually takes 2 hits (more against Snorlax). Snorlax can 2HKO the same people with Body Slam. See, the net result is that 2 hits kills the enemy. Thus, purely attack-wise, they are equal, right? No. Snorlax kills Rhydon and Golem with surf, and is not weak to Starmie, Lapras, Eggy, Slowbro, and Articuno. Snorlax, being a normal type, has no true counters (with fighting being absent from RBY). Rhydon has many counters and has to do a lot of running, which means a lot of free hits for the enemy to rack up on your team.
Snorlax adds another strong physical attacker to wreak havoc before Tauros finishes things off. Rhydon is dead in 1-2 hits from every single OU pokemon except Zapdos. Snorlax takes 3 to 4 hits to take down, while getting to lay down several 318 stabbed body slams.
As seen above, I have debunked the idea that Rhydon hits harder, because the net result is that it takes 2 hits from both Snorlax and Rhydon to kill the enemy. Do I need to emphasize again that Eggy, Lapras, Slowbro, and Starmie completely wall Rhydon? Rhydon means a free Eggy switch which often ends in Chansey getting blown up on (paving the way for someone like... Zam ;)).
Thus, I suggest Snorlax. Use Chansey for T-Wave absorption, and Gengar for explosion absorption, and rest in the peace that Zapdos is very uncommon these days.
Honestly if you're gonna use a rock type I'd go with Golem over Rhydon. Rhydon's 50 higher HP probably isn't gonna matter much, they both go down in 1 hit to most water and grass hits, and in 2 hits to ice moves. They both can take normal and electric moves no problem. Rhydon's higher attack can make a difference but then there's Golem's Explosion and the mind games you can play with it. And Golem beats Rhydon if it comes down to that.
I agree with you about Borat. HOWEVER...mathematically, Rhydon hits harder. This is a fact. He has higher attack with higher base power STAB moves. You have not "debunked" anything. What you have done is attempt to explain away why hitting harder is not relevent. Get your argument straight before characterizing it. Other than that, you seem pretty sure Zapdos is uncommon. The thing is, it's OU for a reason...its OVERUSED. Not having a proper counter to it sucks. What, exactly, does not adding Snorlax make him weak to? NOTHING. What, exactly, does not adding Rhydon make him weak to? Zapdos, an OVERUSED pokemon. Also, Rhydon works terrifically with your beloved Alakazam. 'zam TWaves threats, and Rhydon finishes them. By late game, Rhydon is likely to be one of the fastest pokemon left, if not the fastest, due to paralysis. I will agree with you that Snorlax may be the better pokemon OVERALL, with better options, but for this team Rhydon is clearly the superior choice.
Why wouldn't I compare Alakazam to Chansey? People consider Zam a special wall, and who better to compare to than... Chansey? Given that Alakazam has very little inherent advantage over Chansey [as persay, Snorlax vs Blissey in GSC], then the two are very comparable. Alakazam's 368 to Chansey's 308 will generally amount to about a 14% damage increase, which on most levels, is about 10 damage or so. Given that Chansey will either hit everything for neutral or SE, whereas Alakazam will hit everything for either neutral or NVE, I think the two cancel out nicely, especially when you factor that offense is generally a secondary use for both.
And are you're saying Starmie's NOT using Psychic is a disadvantage? If anything, the fact that Starmie can learn a move and get STAB off it, yet chooses to forgo it shows Psychic's inferiority as a move. Boltbeam coverage far outweighs Psychic's, and Hydro Pump outdamages Psychic should it come to hitting Tauros and stuff. And let's not forget Starmie's resilience(at least more so in comparison) to physical attacks.
Last I checked, Slowbro, Starmie, other Alakazams can also wall Alakazam. Let's not forget, Psychic is a 4HKO on Zapdos to Starmie's 2HKO, 4HKO to Lapras to Starmie's 3HKO, 5HKO to Jynx to Starmie's 3HKO (if you're using Surf). Actually, all of that is useless calculation. There's not a single Pokemon Alakazam can KO faster than Starmie. Alakazam's sweeping potential is far greater on paper than in practice. 368 Spc and 338 Spd screams sweeper, but 0 coverage in move diversity totally kills that. Being 2 shotted by every physical move also aids to that.
And you make Chansey's death sound much easier than it actually is. Chansey is usually one of the last Pokemon to fall for almost every team. I do remember you saying Chansey is THE most important Pokemon in RBY, isn't it? Let's not go back on your word now.
Ultimately, when you get down to it, are you willing to come out admit Alakazam is a better sweeper than Starmie? No? Ok. Is Alakazam a better overall Pokemon than Chansey? No? Ok. Then this discussion need not go any farther, as you yourself don't believe the claims you're making.
Hi waterwizard, I don't know why you feel like you need to have this feud with me, attacking me personally, but it's rather... odd, for a lack of better term. I don't know who you are, nor do I know where the 2004 statement came from (or how you even knew that). But given the mere consensus that you do, then you should very well know I'm very much a RBY nobody, especially in the realms of 5-6 years ago. GSC is where my expertise lies, RBY just happens to be a minor obstacle en route. Being known as an RBY has-been, if there is such a thing, is probably more credit than I deserve. I've won my share, certainly, and probably a little more recently in 06-07 or so, but that's irrelevent. That being said, RBY's peak was reached long ago, probably around 02-03. Quality of games deteriorated since then as the better players stop playing. And because the metagame has relatively stayed the same since then, with no real discoveries or drastic shifts in playstyle since then, it goes without saying that the overall skill of the games went south as well, and I've witnessed this first hand. Being even the best player today means absolutely nothing. Being the best player 3-4 years ago still means very little. You'd have to be the best 6-7 years ago to really have any real credibility.
Question is, what say do YOU have in judging who's a has-been and who's not? Who are YOU? Who have YOU played? What have YOU accomplished? I'm being shallow here, but without reputation/recognition, your allegations/conclusions mean little to none on the whole reputation side. I will and have treated you as an equal [until proven otherwise] in terms of RBY knowledge though. But it doesn't look like that'll carry on for long though. Attacking me on a skill-basis is uncalled for, nor relevant, as I don't play anymore. But if I did, I may very well be better than you, who knows. A "has-been" I might be, but it's a lot better than being a "never-was".
And are you're saying Starmie's NOT using Psychic is a disadvantage? If anything, the fact that Starmie can learn a move and get STAB off it, yet chooses to forgo it shows Psychic's inferiority as a move. Boltbeam coverage far outweighs Psychic's, and Hydro Pump outdamages Psychic should it come to hitting Tauros and stuff. And let's not forget Starmie's resilience(at least more so in comparison) to physical attacks.
Last I checked, Slowbro, Starmie, other Alakazams can also wall Alakazam. Let's not forget, Psychic is a 4HKO on Zapdos to Starmie's 2HKO, 4HKO to Lapras to Starmie's 3HKO, 5HKO to Jynx to Starmie's 3HKO (if you're using Surf). Actually, all of that is useless calculation. There's not a single Pokemon Alakazam can KO faster than Starmie. Alakazam's sweeping potential is far greater on paper than in practice. 368 Spc and 338 Spd screams sweeper, but 0 coverage in move diversity totally kills that. Being 2 shotted by every physical move also aids to that.
And you make Chansey's death sound much easier than it actually is. Chansey is usually one of the last Pokemon to fall for almost every team. I do remember you saying Chansey is THE most important Pokemon in RBY, isn't it? Let's not go back on your word now.
Ultimately, when you get down to it, are you willing to come out admit Alakazam is a better sweeper than Starmie? No? Ok. Is Alakazam a better overall Pokemon than Chansey? No? Ok. Then this discussion need not go any farther, as you yourself don't believe the claims you're making.
Hi waterwizard, I don't know why you feel like you need to have this feud with me, attacking me personally, but it's rather... odd, for a lack of better term. I don't know who you are, nor do I know where the 2004 statement came from (or how you even knew that). But given the mere consensus that you do, then you should very well know I'm very much a RBY nobody, especially in the realms of 5-6 years ago. GSC is where my expertise lies, RBY just happens to be a minor obstacle en route. Being known as an RBY has-been, if there is such a thing, is probably more credit than I deserve. I've won my share, certainly, and probably a little more recently in 06-07 or so, but that's irrelevent. That being said, RBY's peak was reached long ago, probably around 02-03. Quality of games deteriorated since then as the better players stop playing. And because the metagame has relatively stayed the same since then, with no real discoveries or drastic shifts in playstyle since then, it goes without saying that the overall skill of the games went south as well, and I've witnessed this first hand. Being even the best player today means absolutely nothing. Being the best player 3-4 years ago still means very little. You'd have to be the best 6-7 years ago to really have any real credibility.
Question is, what say do YOU have in judging who's a has-been and who's not? Who are YOU? Who have YOU played? What have YOU accomplished? I'm being shallow here, but without reputation/recognition, your allegations/conclusions mean little to none on the whole reputation side. I will and have treated you as an equal [until proven otherwise] in terms of RBY knowledge though. But it doesn't look like that'll carry on for long though. Attacking me on a skill-basis is uncalled for, nor relevant, as I don't play anymore. But if I did, I may very well be better than you, who knows. A "has-been" I might be, but it's a lot better than being a "never-was".
I've never claimed to be an expert, although I am one of the few people that still regularly plays the original games on a regular basis.
On all the Pokemon boards I post on, I have always presented myself as nothing more than a helpful player - not a competitive battler.
As for everyone else, they do seem quite knowledgable, yet you seem to argue against the merits of their viewpoints. Still, to each their own...
Nor do I claim you were. I was not the one to bring up the term "experts".
And by the associative property, it's not me who's arguing the merits of one's viewpoints, but rather, the viewpoints themselves. Ad hominem from me only arises from ad hominem towards me.
I had a bigger post than this but lost power.
Alakazam beats normal type monsters and Gengar better than Chansey or Starmie so that beats your argument that "there's not a single monster that Alakazam beats better than Starmie".
Also beats Golem better than Chansey. Switch Golem on Chansey thunderbolt or wave and Chansey has to switch out or probably get beaten by Golem's explosion. Switch Golem on Alakazam though and it has a good chance of going down.
Zapdos goes down in 3 hits from Chansey, 3 from Starmie and 3 or 4 from Alakazam but then you have critical hits and special falls from Psychic. That can turn it into a 2 or 3 hit KO for Alakazam.
Then you got Chansey itself. Starmie can't do nothing to it except hope for a lucky freeze and goes down fast to Chansey's thunderbolts. Alakazam has a real shot at hurting it after some critical hits and special falls and Chansey can't really hurt it much with boltbeam, maybe get a lucky freeze but that's it.
There ya go. Whatcha got for that?
Alakazam beats normal type monsters and Gengar better than Chansey or Starmie so that beats your argument that "there's not a single monster that Alakazam beats better than Starmie".
Also beats Golem better than Chansey. Switch Golem on Chansey thunderbolt or wave and Chansey has to switch out or probably get beaten by Golem's explosion. Switch Golem on Alakazam though and it has a good chance of going down.
Zapdos goes down in 3 hits from Chansey, 3 from Starmie and 3 or 4 from Alakazam but then you have critical hits and special falls from Psychic. That can turn it into a 2 or 3 hit KO for Alakazam.
Then you got Chansey itself. Starmie can't do nothing to it except hope for a lucky freeze and goes down fast to Chansey's thunderbolts. Alakazam has a real shot at hurting it after some critical hits and special falls and Chansey can't really hurt it much with boltbeam, maybe get a lucky freeze but that's it.
There ya go. Whatcha got for that?
Hydro Pump hits harder than Psychic. Starmie can very well run Psychic as well.
Two things wrong with this statement:
1. No one switches in Golem on an unparalyzed Chansey.
2. By acknowledging the fact that you wouldn't want to lose Chansey to Explosion, but you would sacrifice Alakazam already shows Chansey's superiority as a Pokemon.
Zapdos goes down in 2, 1 if a CH. Are you really using Ice Beam instead of Blizzard?
Stop replying.
EDIT: It seems you guys aren't even attacking my argument anymore, just nitpicking and twisting it into something you can actually dispute. So here it is again, a simple two-part declaration:
1. Starmie is the superior sweeper/Chansey bait.
2. Chansey is better/more useful than Alakazam.
So unless you're willing to refute that argument as a whole, then you really have no basis of debate.
Two things wrong with this statement:
1. No one switches in Golem on an unparalyzed Chansey.
2. By acknowledging the fact that you wouldn't want to lose Chansey to Explosion, but you would sacrifice Alakazam already shows Chansey's superiority as a Pokemon.
Zapdos goes down in 2, 1 if a CH. Are you really using Ice Beam instead of Blizzard?
Stop replying.
EDIT: It seems you guys aren't even attacking my argument anymore, just nitpicking and twisting it into something you can actually dispute. So here it is again, a simple two-part declaration:
1. Starmie is the superior sweeper/Chansey bait.
2. Chansey is better/more useful than Alakazam.
So unless you're willing to refute that argument as a whole, then you really have no basis of debate.
I wouldn't "sacrifice Alakazam", I would only leave it out because it has a very good chance of taking out Golem.
Not attacking your argument? What am I doing then bro? First off you said there's not a single monster Alakazam can beat better than Starmie and I proved that wrong. Alakazam is better against Tauros, Snorlax, Persian, Gengar and has a better chance against Chansey than Starmie does. So Starmie's not the better sweeper.
I dunno where you're getting your info from but Starmie's Blizzard beats Zapdos in 3 hits, 2 with critical. Alakazam could easily be a 3 or even 2 hit KO after special falls and critical hits. Then don't forget Zapdos beats Starmie in 2 hits or 1 hit with thunder or a critical on thunderbolt.
Maybe you should stop replying bro, nobody takes you seriously. You seem to know a little bit but you exaggerate way too much and you're too arrogant. Might wanna work on that.
Not attacking your argument? What am I doing then bro? First off you said there's not a single monster Alakazam can beat better than Starmie and I proved that wrong. Alakazam is better against Tauros, Snorlax, Persian, Gengar and has a better chance against Chansey than Starmie does. So Starmie's not the better sweeper.
I dunno where you're getting your info from but Starmie's Blizzard beats Zapdos in 3 hits, 2 with critical. Alakazam could easily be a 3 or even 2 hit KO after special falls and critical hits. Then don't forget Zapdos beats Starmie in 2 hits or 1 hit with thunder or a critical on thunderbolt.
Maybe you should stop replying bro, nobody takes you seriously. You seem to know a little bit but you exaggerate way too much and you're too arrogant. Might wanna work on that.
You're saying Chansey can't take out Golem? What are you on?
Starmie 2HKOs Tauros/Persian all the same (speed is an issue for the latter, but whatever), similarly Gengar with Psychic. As for Snorlax, I think Starmie with Hydro Pump might take one less hit, depending on rolls. And saying it has a chance against Chansey is irrelevant because if you ever down to the stage where you have to kill off Chansey with Alakazam, you're doing it wrong.
Got me on Zapdos, did GSC calculations. Good edit, Zapdos using Thunder? That's your argument? That's about as situational as Psywave Alakazam.
1. Starmie is the superior sweeper/Chansey bait.
2. Chansey is better/more useful than Alakazam.
Which one are you disputing? Are you saying Alakazam is a better sweeper than Starmie? Are you saying Alakazam is a better Pokemon than Chansey? Seems like you're saying neither. You're just nitpicking as far as I'm concerned. "Oh but in certain situational cases, Alakazam IS better. " I don't care. Tell me he's better as a whole and I'll continue to "debate" with you.
Starmie 2HKOs Tauros/Persian all the same (speed is an issue for the latter, but whatever), similarly Gengar with Psychic. As for Snorlax, I think Starmie with Hydro Pump might take one less hit, depending on rolls. And saying it has a chance against Chansey is irrelevant because if you ever down to the stage where you have to kill off Chansey with Alakazam, you're doing it wrong.
Got me on Zapdos, did GSC calculations. Good edit, Zapdos using Thunder? That's your argument? That's about as situational as Psywave Alakazam.
1. Starmie is the superior sweeper/Chansey bait.
2. Chansey is better/more useful than Alakazam.
Which one are you disputing? Are you saying Alakazam is a better sweeper than Starmie? Are you saying Alakazam is a better Pokemon than Chansey? Seems like you're saying neither. You're just nitpicking as far as I'm concerned. "Oh but in certain situational cases, Alakazam IS better. " I don't care. Tell me he's better as a whole and I'll continue to "debate" with you.
I'm not saying Chansey can't beat Golem bro, that's stupid. I'm saying Alakazam is better at it. Golem can switch in on a lightning attack and then explode and take out a full health Chansey. I played a few matches tonight and did that once. Switch Golem on Alakazam and it takes 2 Psychics, there's a good chance it's not gonna survive.
"Certain situational cases"? Tauros, Snorlax, Persian and Gengar are some of the biggest threats in the game and Chansey and Starmie have a very hard time beating them and Alakazam doesn't. That's more than situational, it can win you the game. Alakazam is also a great lead, it handles Gengar and grass leads.
Anyway I'm saying Alakazam and Starmie are both equally good.
"Certain situational cases"? Tauros, Snorlax, Persian and Gengar are some of the biggest threats in the game and Chansey and Starmie have a very hard time beating them and Alakazam doesn't. That's more than situational, it can win you the game. Alakazam is also a great lead, it handles Gengar and grass leads.
Anyway I'm saying Alakazam and Starmie are both equally good.
chansey has a guaranteed 2hko on golem and she's faster than golem is. alakazam very rarely 2hkoes golem so actually chansey beats golem better than alakazam does. to me, the only thing alakazam accomplishes better than chansey defensively is gettin exploded on - which is nothing more than a demonstration of how overall less useful it is.
offensively, the only pokémon kazam handles better than starmie is gengar, unless starmie has psychic (but she usually doesn't since she has better options to go with, unlike zam).
for an year or so i refused to use chansey in rby. didn't like her overall omnipotence and the component of stall she brings to the game when the chansey vs chansey situation appears (until finally i became smarter and realized that all i have to do is comin' in on the twave and look for a frozen :) also i run sing quite often now). however, during my "sabbatic year" i used to replace chansey with type resistances, hyper offense, and alakazam.
everything of which was fail.
type resistance aren't really meant to be abused in a non-leftovers metagame. hyper offense still falls to prediction / revenge kill. and alakazam is just an inferior special wall terribly hindered by the most common status in rby.
so i fully agree w/ borat here, chansey is pretty much a necessity in rby, while zam is inferior and you should almost never run it alone (sure running both chansey and zam is a different story).
onto the rhydon / snorlax topic, i really have to say i do not particullary like neither of them, although i admit lax is the superior choice. the reasoning behind the rhydon's eq / lax's bs comparison in koing power was pretty erroneous though, since there are quite a few things that result in being hammered by rhydon for a 2/3hko, while lax fails at those numbers. the real advantage snorlax has is in being capable of single-handedly taking on those pokés, while rhydon requires them to be para'd in order to be effective at crippling them.
offensively, the only pokémon kazam handles better than starmie is gengar, unless starmie has psychic (but she usually doesn't since she has better options to go with, unlike zam).
for an year or so i refused to use chansey in rby. didn't like her overall omnipotence and the component of stall she brings to the game when the chansey vs chansey situation appears (until finally i became smarter and realized that all i have to do is comin' in on the twave and look for a frozen :) also i run sing quite often now). however, during my "sabbatic year" i used to replace chansey with type resistances, hyper offense, and alakazam.
everything of which was fail.
type resistance aren't really meant to be abused in a non-leftovers metagame. hyper offense still falls to prediction / revenge kill. and alakazam is just an inferior special wall terribly hindered by the most common status in rby.
so i fully agree w/ borat here, chansey is pretty much a necessity in rby, while zam is inferior and you should almost never run it alone (sure running both chansey and zam is a different story).
onto the rhydon / snorlax topic, i really have to say i do not particullary like neither of them, although i admit lax is the superior choice. the reasoning behind the rhydon's eq / lax's bs comparison in koing power was pretty erroneous though, since there are quite a few things that result in being hammered by rhydon for a 2/3hko, while lax fails at those numbers. the real advantage snorlax has is in being capable of single-handedly taking on those pokés, while rhydon requires them to be para'd in order to be effective at crippling them.
First, don't compare Chansey and Alakazam anymore because this whole argument is about sweeper Alakazam. Only an idiot would claim Alakazam is a better special wall than Chansey, and thus I never claimed such.
Second, psychic is an inferior move? No. Psychic is the only way to kill Chansey with special moves (if special is your only option). Alakazam takes down Chansey where Starmie cannot. Alakazam's psychic can and usually does 1-2hko about half of the OU pool, and 3-4 pokes on a given OU team. Starmie's "boltbeam coverage" means she is super effective against 1 pokemon on my team (Eggy). Good for her. Alakazam is super effective against Gengar (who beats Starmie). So against my team, they're even as far as coverage goes. With Golem playing, that ups Starmie's coverage to 2 pokes. Underplayed Slowbro is the only water OU without tbolt, so I suppose Starmie covers him, too.
Chansey has a very hard time surviving Golem, Snorlax, Gengar, and Eggy throughout the mid-game. Paralyzed Chansey is very often sent out against Eggy, and very often blown up on. She is excellent, but I think her death is worth removing a full health Eggy (especially when I've won the initial sleep war and now have no fear of getting slept).
As a has-been, you're expected to be arrogant and stubborn. You are fulfilling your role quite well. And I'm certainly not a "never-been." I'm considered by many to be the best active RBY player (validated by a few old-guard RBY players), and my support of the metagame has kept the RBY netbattle community alive for a while now. If GSC is your thing, perhaps you should stick with that?
I agree that Chansey can take out Golem in 2 hits. But, since Chansey will (if you're good) already be paralyzed, Golem has a chance to take it out first (guaranteed if Chansey has already been hit by a psychic/surf). Paralyzed Chansey also provides Golem a chance to get in a free substitute (or 4 chances to get it right).
If one chooses to send in their Alakazam mid-game against Golem, they can just use reflect, then 2-3hko Golem. Alakazam can easily 2HKO Golem. He has a 30% chance of lower the special on the first hit, and the highest chance in OU to critical hit one or both times. Alakazam can 1hko Golem with max rolls and CH. I just played a game where Alakazam 1hko'd full health Persian, Tauros, and Golem.
Alakazam can also reflect explosion, meaning the opponent just completely wasted a pokemon.
Realize that I never said Alakazam was a better special wall than Chansey. She is the best, period. This discussion started when people said Alakazam couldn't sweep. I stated that Alakazam can (and should) be used as either an anti-lead or a sweeper, and let Chansey be the special wall. So of course you agree with everyone that Chansey is a better special wall and that Zam shouldn't be used alone (or at all) for that purpose.
I have to go to work now. Be back later to talk about how Snorlax is all-around better than Rhydon except against Zapdos.
You switched Golem in on Alakazam? That'll destroy your credibility.
Out of those you listed, Starmie kills them equally fast. Snorlax takes less hits to kill with Hydro Pump, but if you factor in accuracy, it's a toss-up, with slight advantage to Starmie. Same things with Tauros. And Starmie takes out Gengar equally quick should it pack Psychic, but again, it rarely does because there are BETTER moves, so it's a testament to Starmie's diversity and Alakazam's lack thereof. As for Persian, Alakazam has the advantage there, but even then, it's arguable. Starmie has a 50% chance to KO Persian all the same, and you have to count CHs against Alakazam. The overall difference is quite marginal in practice, unless it's a case of 1v1, full HP for both, but how often does that happen? Pokemon isn't a game where the two face off one and one, no holds barred. It's a game of systematic switches, and chances are, Alakazam will be paralyzed, whereas Persian/Starmie and the like probably won't. And just take a second to think, why is Alakazam a great lead? Because he's disposable. You're honestly telling me Chansey can't handle being a lead?
I'm saying Starmie is better than Alakazam. Care to dispute? You're doing a poor job so far. And I haven't even begun to mention Starmie's ADVANTAGES over Alakazam. All you've listed are "disadvantages", and most of them are extremely situational.
@waterwizard:
Again, here's me humoring you though:
Psychic IS an inferior move. This is true on principle alone. What possible reason could Starmie have of forgoing Psychic, to which it gets STAB? The only, and I mean ONLY, advantage is against Chansey. And if you're ever pitted against a lone Chansey with a lone Alakazam, either you, or your opponent, is playing the game wrong. Psychic is essentially a type that'll half the Pokemon for neutral damage, and the other half for half. There's very little advantage in that.
And I'd love for you to list said "half of the OU pool". Hell, just list one OU that Alakazam can OHKO. Oh wait, there are none. Quit spewing bullshit and passing them off as facts. Assuming no CHs, here's how Alakazam would fare against OUs:
Golem (2HKO about 75% of the time)
Rhydon (2HKO about 50% of the time)
Lapras (4HKO)
Zapdos (4HKO)
Tauros (2HKO only 7% of the time)
Persian (2HKO 66% of the time)
Gengar (2HKO)
Snorlax (3HKO only about 30% of the time)
The rest are either Psychics, or Chansey, and you should know the result of those.
Would you look at that, the total number of Pokemon Alakazam can guaranteed 2HKO is: 1. And another two pretty reliably. The total number Alakazam can OHKO: 0.
Let's see how Starmie fares against these:
Golem (OHKO)
Rhydon (OHKO)
Lapras (3HKO about 30% of the time)
Zapdos (3HKO)
Tauros (2HKO about 50% of the time, 32% factoring in accuracy)
Persian (2HKO 100% of the time, 64% of the time factoring in accuracy)
Gengar (2HKO)
Snorlax (3HKO 78% of the time, 50% factoring in accuracy)
Out of the 8 listed OUs, Starmie has the advantage in killing 5 of them, without question. The 6th, Zapdos, is a little more arguable, since Zapdos will KO Starmie faster. Ultimately, that shouldn't matter if you're in a position to sweep. The 7th is Gengar, which is a draw. And the 8th, Persian. Statistically, Alakazam is better at dealing with Persian. However, it's still arguable for three reasons:
1. A CH HB kills Alakazam 100% of the time. It kills Starmie only 25% of the time.
2. A CH Hydro Pump OHKOs Persian 100% of the time.
3. Should Starmie go first on the second turn, it negates Alakazam's speed "advantage".
Now let's compare the rest of the OU pool, minus Chansey, which I'll address specifically:
Exeggutor: Zam (5HKO), Starmie (3HKO)
Starmie: Zam (realistically: never, but for the sake of comparison, 5HKO about 66% of the time), Starmie (2HKO about 15% of the time)
Jynx: Zam (5HKO about 66% of the time), Starmie (3HKO 100% of the time, 64% factoring in accuracy)
Slowbro: (realistically: never, but for the sake of comparison, 5HKO about 50% of the time), Starmie (3HKO)
Those are pretty significant advantages.
Gengar, blah blah blah. You're forgetting Starmie has the option to run Psychic, so I don't see where that argument is coming from. Whether or not it does is strictly up to the user. That's like saying Rhydon > Chanseys that don't run Ice Beam. What about those that do? Furthermore, Psychic isn't OHKO from Alakazam, nor is Starmie's Psychic a 3HKO (or anywhere near that for that matter), so for the most part, a Starmie running Psychic has the same chance against Gengar as an Alakazam running Psychic.
As far as Chansey is concerned, here's why it doesn't matter:
Why does Chansey run Thunderbolt? For Starmie. Seismic Toss would be the option if you want to go up against Alakazam. Suddenly Alakazam isn't so vulnerable. Moving on, how many Psychics would he have used up to this point? Let's be conservative, and say 6. That leaves him with 10. Statistically, that's a possible 3 spc drops. Now you factor in FPs, which will inevitably happen, and Softboileds, and what you're left with, is a stupidly impossible predicament. Starmie can't beat Chansey, okay, but beating Chansey 3% of the time isn't better. That's like saying Rhydon counters Starmie because you can just CH it on the switch.
Chansey can't survive versus Golem, Snorlax, and Rhydon should she be paralyzed. Okay. Can Alakazam?
Chansey risks being exploded on by Gengar/Egg. Okay. And Alakazam?
In the end, you're STILL being unclear: which of the two declarations are you trying to argue? Is Alakazam a better sweeper than Starmie? Or is Alakazam a better overall Pokemon than Chansey? It seems like throughout your post, you've proved neither. Nor have you made any progress. Nor can you possibly make any progress, because you've already accepted my two statements. You're arguing with me for the pure sake of arguing with me.
Of course I'm arrogant. Who isn't? This is Pokemon afterall. You're considered the best? I'm "considered" the best basketball player alive. See how little a statement like that means? And as far as "old-guard RBY players go", this is where namedropping is needed. Who? Vineon? Fish?
lol the RBY community is dead, let alone the RBY NB community. The GSC community is dead as well. I say it as I see it, no need to dellusion ourselves into thinking otherwise. The game sold, what, 15 million copies? Anything short of 20+ consistently active players on at one time qualifies for dead. And yes, GSC is my thing, doesn't mean RBY isn't. Battling is my thing, and it carries over. Few, if any, even today, can really compete with me on a conceptual level, grasping and understanding the concept of battling as a whole, not the gen-specific fundamental knowledge on movesets, or whatnot. That's the lowest form of skill there is. And my RBY knowledge is certainly not shabby in this day and age where the highest level of competition, supposedly anyway, is you.
Not to be cliche, but the truest, most revealing statement I can tell you is this: you can only be as good as your competition allows. I've seen more, I've done more, and I know more than you. I may be the arrogant one, but you're the ignorant one. Belittle my past/skill/whatever all you want, but quite frankly, you're beginning to sound like GGfan. You seem to be jealous of what you could never quite accomplish (albeit it's to no fault of your own), throwing up false titles of fame and grandeur, and I do vaguely remember you toss around the term, Smogonite? Sounds like GGfan, no accusations though, just speculations.
Anywho, I'm done unless you're looking to retract either of your two statements regarding Starmie/Chansey superiority to Alakazam. As far as I'm concerned, you're just agreeing with me defiantly.
Out of those you listed, Starmie kills them equally fast. Snorlax takes less hits to kill with Hydro Pump, but if you factor in accuracy, it's a toss-up, with slight advantage to Starmie. Same things with Tauros. And Starmie takes out Gengar equally quick should it pack Psychic, but again, it rarely does because there are BETTER moves, so it's a testament to Starmie's diversity and Alakazam's lack thereof. As for Persian, Alakazam has the advantage there, but even then, it's arguable. Starmie has a 50% chance to KO Persian all the same, and you have to count CHs against Alakazam. The overall difference is quite marginal in practice, unless it's a case of 1v1, full HP for both, but how often does that happen? Pokemon isn't a game where the two face off one and one, no holds barred. It's a game of systematic switches, and chances are, Alakazam will be paralyzed, whereas Persian/Starmie and the like probably won't. And just take a second to think, why is Alakazam a great lead? Because he's disposable. You're honestly telling me Chansey can't handle being a lead?
I'm saying Starmie is better than Alakazam. Care to dispute? You're doing a poor job so far. And I haven't even begun to mention Starmie's ADVANTAGES over Alakazam. All you've listed are "disadvantages", and most of them are extremely situational.
@waterwizard:
Here's a couple quotes by you:
So if you're not going to dispute Chansey's overall superiority, and you've already claimed Starmie is better than Alakazam as a sweeper, then why are you still responding?
Again, here's me humoring you though:
Psychic IS an inferior move. This is true on principle alone. What possible reason could Starmie have of forgoing Psychic, to which it gets STAB? The only, and I mean ONLY, advantage is against Chansey. And if you're ever pitted against a lone Chansey with a lone Alakazam, either you, or your opponent, is playing the game wrong. Psychic is essentially a type that'll half the Pokemon for neutral damage, and the other half for half. There's very little advantage in that.
Alakazam can 2HKO a total of 1 Pokemon on my team, Tauros. Good for him. Let's not have biased views.
And I'd love for you to list said "half of the OU pool". Hell, just list one OU that Alakazam can OHKO. Oh wait, there are none. Quit spewing bullshit and passing them off as facts. Assuming no CHs, here's how Alakazam would fare against OUs:
Golem (2HKO about 75% of the time)
Rhydon (2HKO about 50% of the time)
Lapras (4HKO)
Zapdos (4HKO)
Tauros (2HKO only 7% of the time)
Persian (2HKO 66% of the time)
Gengar (2HKO)
Snorlax (3HKO only about 30% of the time)
The rest are either Psychics, or Chansey, and you should know the result of those.
Would you look at that, the total number of Pokemon Alakazam can guaranteed 2HKO is: 1. And another two pretty reliably. The total number Alakazam can OHKO: 0.
Let's see how Starmie fares against these:
Golem (OHKO)
Rhydon (OHKO)
Lapras (3HKO about 30% of the time)
Zapdos (3HKO)
Tauros (2HKO about 50% of the time, 32% factoring in accuracy)
Persian (2HKO 100% of the time, 64% of the time factoring in accuracy)
Gengar (2HKO)
Snorlax (3HKO 78% of the time, 50% factoring in accuracy)
Out of the 8 listed OUs, Starmie has the advantage in killing 5 of them, without question. The 6th, Zapdos, is a little more arguable, since Zapdos will KO Starmie faster. Ultimately, that shouldn't matter if you're in a position to sweep. The 7th is Gengar, which is a draw. And the 8th, Persian. Statistically, Alakazam is better at dealing with Persian. However, it's still arguable for three reasons:
1. A CH HB kills Alakazam 100% of the time. It kills Starmie only 25% of the time.
2. A CH Hydro Pump OHKOs Persian 100% of the time.
3. Should Starmie go first on the second turn, it negates Alakazam's speed "advantage".
Now let's compare the rest of the OU pool, minus Chansey, which I'll address specifically:
Exeggutor: Zam (5HKO), Starmie (3HKO)
Starmie: Zam (realistically: never, but for the sake of comparison, 5HKO about 66% of the time), Starmie (2HKO about 15% of the time)
Jynx: Zam (5HKO about 66% of the time), Starmie (3HKO 100% of the time, 64% factoring in accuracy)
Slowbro: (realistically: never, but for the sake of comparison, 5HKO about 50% of the time), Starmie (3HKO)
Those are pretty significant advantages.
Gengar, blah blah blah. You're forgetting Starmie has the option to run Psychic, so I don't see where that argument is coming from. Whether or not it does is strictly up to the user. That's like saying Rhydon > Chanseys that don't run Ice Beam. What about those that do? Furthermore, Psychic isn't OHKO from Alakazam, nor is Starmie's Psychic a 3HKO (or anywhere near that for that matter), so for the most part, a Starmie running Psychic has the same chance against Gengar as an Alakazam running Psychic.
As far as Chansey is concerned, here's why it doesn't matter:
Why does Chansey run Thunderbolt? For Starmie. Seismic Toss would be the option if you want to go up against Alakazam. Suddenly Alakazam isn't so vulnerable. Moving on, how many Psychics would he have used up to this point? Let's be conservative, and say 6. That leaves him with 10. Statistically, that's a possible 3 spc drops. Now you factor in FPs, which will inevitably happen, and Softboileds, and what you're left with, is a stupidly impossible predicament. Starmie can't beat Chansey, okay, but beating Chansey 3% of the time isn't better. That's like saying Rhydon counters Starmie because you can just CH it on the switch.
Chansey can't survive versus Golem, Snorlax, and Rhydon should she be paralyzed. Okay. Can Alakazam?
Chansey risks being exploded on by Gengar/Egg. Okay. And Alakazam?
I don't understand what your personal experience has to do with anything. The odds of that occuring are 0.05%, or 1 in 2000. That's lower than the odds of getting 6 straight OHKOs via... OHKO moves. And if I ever do get 6 straight OHKOs, do you think that's sufficient justification for banning Dugtrio?
In the end, you're STILL being unclear: which of the two declarations are you trying to argue? Is Alakazam a better sweeper than Starmie? Or is Alakazam a better overall Pokemon than Chansey? It seems like throughout your post, you've proved neither. Nor have you made any progress. Nor can you possibly make any progress, because you've already accepted my two statements. You're arguing with me for the pure sake of arguing with me.
Of course I'm arrogant. Who isn't? This is Pokemon afterall. You're considered the best? I'm "considered" the best basketball player alive. See how little a statement like that means? And as far as "old-guard RBY players go", this is where namedropping is needed. Who? Vineon? Fish?
lol the RBY community is dead, let alone the RBY NB community. The GSC community is dead as well. I say it as I see it, no need to dellusion ourselves into thinking otherwise. The game sold, what, 15 million copies? Anything short of 20+ consistently active players on at one time qualifies for dead. And yes, GSC is my thing, doesn't mean RBY isn't. Battling is my thing, and it carries over. Few, if any, even today, can really compete with me on a conceptual level, grasping and understanding the concept of battling as a whole, not the gen-specific fundamental knowledge on movesets, or whatnot. That's the lowest form of skill there is. And my RBY knowledge is certainly not shabby in this day and age where the highest level of competition, supposedly anyway, is you.
Not to be cliche, but the truest, most revealing statement I can tell you is this: you can only be as good as your competition allows. I've seen more, I've done more, and I know more than you. I may be the arrogant one, but you're the ignorant one. Belittle my past/skill/whatever all you want, but quite frankly, you're beginning to sound like GGfan. You seem to be jealous of what you could never quite accomplish (albeit it's to no fault of your own), throwing up false titles of fame and grandeur, and I do vaguely remember you toss around the term, Smogonite? Sounds like GGfan, no accusations though, just speculations.
Anywho, I'm done unless you're looking to retract either of your two statements regarding Starmie/Chansey superiority to Alakazam. As far as I'm concerned, you're just agreeing with me defiantly.