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Advanced Tiers Revisited revisited
- Thread starter chaos
- Start date
If you are talking about my log (which you must be), then sorry. I wouldn't have thought anyone would actually read it though. :)
Anyways, I havent seen a Charizard for days. I cannot understand why that thing is still OU.
Great Sage
Banned deucer.
Tentacruel should definitely be booted up to BL because:
1. It rampages through UU, Sludge Bombing everything in sight until it meets Aggron, which then gets Hydro Pumped to hell. The only thing that can really take on Tentacruel one-on-one is Quagsire, who had better pray that Sludge Bomb doesn't poison. If it does, it has to go to sleep, which gives Tentacruel 2 more SDs and a Sludge Bomb. Not even Quaggy can take that kind of abuse.
2. However, its weakness to Earthquake prevents it from climbing up to OU, due to EQ being one of the most common moves there. Therefore, it has to go to BL.
3. As further evidence of the claim that Tentacruel should be upgraded, many OU champions also fall to the monster jellyfish. Milotic and non-Roar Suicune can't do shit to Tentacruel, while it SDs up and Sludge Bombs them off the screen. Salamence is outspeeded and Ice Beamed, while a weakened Tyranitar falls to Hydro Pump. Skarmory is given a hard time with Hydro Pump, and Zapdos and Starmie get their Thunderbolts Mirror Coated back.
Therefore, I heartily advocate that Tentacruel become BL on the basis of its overwhelming power in UU and is high degree of potential even in OU play, despite its Earthquake weakness, for it can take down Pokemon often regarded as the best of the best in OU. It is rare that a Pokemon with a weakness to Earthquake, is not an Electric, and has relatively low physical defense becomes viable in the offensive environment of OU, and so I rest my case.
1. It rampages through UU, Sludge Bombing everything in sight until it meets Aggron, which then gets Hydro Pumped to hell. The only thing that can really take on Tentacruel one-on-one is Quagsire, who had better pray that Sludge Bomb doesn't poison. If it does, it has to go to sleep, which gives Tentacruel 2 more SDs and a Sludge Bomb. Not even Quaggy can take that kind of abuse.
2. However, its weakness to Earthquake prevents it from climbing up to OU, due to EQ being one of the most common moves there. Therefore, it has to go to BL.
3. As further evidence of the claim that Tentacruel should be upgraded, many OU champions also fall to the monster jellyfish. Milotic and non-Roar Suicune can't do shit to Tentacruel, while it SDs up and Sludge Bombs them off the screen. Salamence is outspeeded and Ice Beamed, while a weakened Tyranitar falls to Hydro Pump. Skarmory is given a hard time with Hydro Pump, and Zapdos and Starmie get their Thunderbolts Mirror Coated back.
Therefore, I heartily advocate that Tentacruel become BL on the basis of its overwhelming power in UU and is high degree of potential even in OU play, despite its Earthquake weakness, for it can take down Pokemon often regarded as the best of the best in OU. It is rare that a Pokemon with a weakness to Earthquake, is not an Electric, and has relatively low physical defense becomes viable in the offensive environment of OU, and so I rest my case.
Great Sage
Banned deucer.
The Slowpoke family is going to have a hard time taking STAB SDed Sludge Bomb, still, especially Slowking, which gets 2HKOed. Even max Defense and HP Slowbro with a neutral nature is 3HKOed. Also, a lot of Slowbro/king don't carry Psychic.
Great Sage
Banned deucer.
Mekkah and others, please read below for my full opinion on Tentacruel, and please read it in its entirety before judgement. Thank you.
You could start with Tentacruel or switch it in after one of your Pokemon has been knocked out. The weakness to the special attacks is nulled by its high Special Defense and possibly Mirror Coat. As for Quagsire, Tentacruel really can't counter it unless there is an extraordinary circumstance, but that's why you have 5 other Pokemon. You also have to consider Tentacruel's resistances and advantages: it resists Surf and Ice Beam really well, it can outspeed Salamence and Flygon and OHKO them with Ice Beam, and it Hydro Pumps out stuff like Skarmory, Claydol, and company. If Zapdos chooses to come in and ruin the fun, you can Mirror Coat the TBolt back. Tentacruel will have guarenteed survival of a max SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt with just 152 HP EVs and a neutral nature. Whether these strengths will or will not override the weaknesses you've mentioned, I will not attempt to discuss, but instead finish my point. Any non-Electric that is weak to Earthquake and has a low defense stat that becomes usable, or even good, in OU play certainly doesn't deserve to be in UU. Tentacruel takes it even further, with the potential to counter Salamence, Zapdos, Raikou, Tyraniboah, Milotic, Skarmory, Starmie, and Suicune all in one package. Such a Pokemon would almost certainly merit OU status, but unfortunately not many people realize the true power of Tentacruel, and thus, it must be placed in BL. Whatever anyone says, Tentacruel is an anti-metagame Pokemon, and has the power to rock Netbattle almost as much as Tyraniboah did. So, do you now think that Tentacruel still must stagnate in UU? Must Tentacruel forever give the impression of a Pokemon with a thousand weaknesses? Tyranitar is OHKOed by Brick Break and Focus Punch, and Salamence by Ice Beam, and Aerodactyl by Surf. Those four moves also see plenty of usage in the Advance metagame, but did that hinder those three Pokemon? No! People just learned how to play them properly. What's stopping people from learning to play Tentacruel properly? Consider this Pokemon is its true self, away from the dissenting opinions of anyone but yourself, and think: Does such a magnificent Pokemon, which turns its Electric weakness into an advantage, deserve such a negative public opinion. Please give Tentacruel a try, and if it doesn't work for you, then dump it, but don't trash such a treasure. Don't mistake me for a Tentacruel sycophant; I am anything but. I hated Tentacruel and still harbor a grudge against it today, but I must not let my unwilling mind cloud my speech. Tentacruel is not a god of Pokemon; in fact, it is the plainest one, and it is a greater triumph that such a mundane jellyfish and trump the greatest dragon in Pokemon. Of course, I'm not forcing you to agree with me, only expressing my personal beliefs. I hope I've made my point clear.
You could start with Tentacruel or switch it in after one of your Pokemon has been knocked out. The weakness to the special attacks is nulled by its high Special Defense and possibly Mirror Coat. As for Quagsire, Tentacruel really can't counter it unless there is an extraordinary circumstance, but that's why you have 5 other Pokemon. You also have to consider Tentacruel's resistances and advantages: it resists Surf and Ice Beam really well, it can outspeed Salamence and Flygon and OHKO them with Ice Beam, and it Hydro Pumps out stuff like Skarmory, Claydol, and company. If Zapdos chooses to come in and ruin the fun, you can Mirror Coat the TBolt back. Tentacruel will have guarenteed survival of a max SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt with just 152 HP EVs and a neutral nature. Whether these strengths will or will not override the weaknesses you've mentioned, I will not attempt to discuss, but instead finish my point. Any non-Electric that is weak to Earthquake and has a low defense stat that becomes usable, or even good, in OU play certainly doesn't deserve to be in UU. Tentacruel takes it even further, with the potential to counter Salamence, Zapdos, Raikou, Tyraniboah, Milotic, Skarmory, Starmie, and Suicune all in one package. Such a Pokemon would almost certainly merit OU status, but unfortunately not many people realize the true power of Tentacruel, and thus, it must be placed in BL. Whatever anyone says, Tentacruel is an anti-metagame Pokemon, and has the power to rock Netbattle almost as much as Tyraniboah did. So, do you now think that Tentacruel still must stagnate in UU? Must Tentacruel forever give the impression of a Pokemon with a thousand weaknesses? Tyranitar is OHKOed by Brick Break and Focus Punch, and Salamence by Ice Beam, and Aerodactyl by Surf. Those four moves also see plenty of usage in the Advance metagame, but did that hinder those three Pokemon? No! People just learned how to play them properly. What's stopping people from learning to play Tentacruel properly? Consider this Pokemon is its true self, away from the dissenting opinions of anyone but yourself, and think: Does such a magnificent Pokemon, which turns its Electric weakness into an advantage, deserve such a negative public opinion. Please give Tentacruel a try, and if it doesn't work for you, then dump it, but don't trash such a treasure. Don't mistake me for a Tentacruel sycophant; I am anything but. I hated Tentacruel and still harbor a grudge against it today, but I must not let my unwilling mind cloud my speech. Tentacruel is not a god of Pokemon; in fact, it is the plainest one, and it is a greater triumph that such a mundane jellyfish and trump the greatest dragon in Pokemon. Of course, I'm not forcing you to agree with me, only expressing my personal beliefs. I hope I've made my point clear.
Some of your points seem to be viable, others are terrible. Before you just judge on your posts: I actually used to lead with Tentacruel on an antistandard team (mostly UUs), used it for decennia, and I loved using it. It's great. But it's still UU. Why?
Tentacruel like many other Pokemon in UU cannot sweep at any given time. You can't just pull out Cruel turn 5, SD and hope to win. Unless your opponent is stupid, this will not happen. I agree with Tentacruel being a great Pokemon, but jesus christ, there are quite a few counters to it, and quite a few things that can stop it from sweeping! Instead of banning it from UU, lets maybe use things that can shut it down instead?
Quagsire isn't even the only thing that shits on Tentacruel. A properly EV'd Feraligatr is what I use and it works like a charm. Sludge Bombs hardly damage it, Hydro Pump does shit and Earthquake will do ~60% to Tenta. Most other defensive waters with a move that Tentacruel is weak to (Earthquake Walrein, Slowking etc) will also counter Tenta well enough.
If you have any physical Pokemon that has the ability to take an attack and smack the shit out of Cruel, you are good to go as well. Honestly moving Tenta to BL is ridiculous.
You are also saying that it does "well" in OU play, so it shouldn't be UU. I really disagree with this, because people tend to overrate certain Pokemon. If it really was "so great", don't you think people would have noticed this in the several years RS has been around?
Decisions on the UU tier should be made by how good ____ is in UU not standard...
Quagsire isn't even the only thing that shits on Tentacruel. A properly EV'd Feraligatr is what I use and it works like a charm. Sludge Bombs hardly damage it, Hydro Pump does shit and Earthquake will do ~60% to Tenta. Most other defensive waters with a move that Tentacruel is weak to (Earthquake Walrein, Slowking etc) will also counter Tenta well enough.
If you have any physical Pokemon that has the ability to take an attack and smack the shit out of Cruel, you are good to go as well. Honestly moving Tenta to BL is ridiculous.
You are also saying that it does "well" in OU play, so it shouldn't be UU. I really disagree with this, because people tend to overrate certain Pokemon. If it really was "so great", don't you think people would have noticed this in the several years RS has been around?
Decisions on the UU tier should be made by how good ____ is in UU not standard...
The top tiers [standard] should be broken up more, Into stuff like standard top tier , standard mid tier, and maybe even standard low tier
Celebi or Skarmory would obviously be in top but something Steelix or Venusaur could be put in mid or even low tier because they probably wouldn't be seen in tournament play and in most cases they are just not in the same class as something like Celebi or Skarmory.
Celebi or Skarmory would obviously be in top but something Steelix or Venusaur could be put in mid or even low tier because they probably wouldn't be seen in tournament play and in most cases they are just not in the same class as something like Celebi or Skarmory.
I saw 3 Venusaurs yesterday (4 if you include the fact that I was using one too). And I did 11 battles. 3/11 isnt bad surely?
Great Sage
Banned deucer.
I believe BLJ meant that the OU tier would be split based on power, not usage. OU and UU are determined by usage, but the sub-tiers would not.
raichu and clefable should really be bl =/
ive been testing out raichu in standard,it has been working very well for me(tbolt/focus punch/sub/encore),it hits so many things hard its not even funny.
as for clefable,you just cannot predict it and it has decent stats to work with to.
well then thats where our opinions come into play,wich i dont think one or the other will budge.
EDIT: Why are we still arguing about usability, when the tiers are about the amount of usage? This is really going offtopic, IMO. No matter how viable Raichu, Clefable, or Tentacruel are as standards, they're not moving up unless more people take advantage. If you truly feel they deserve reservations, start influencing the metagame firsthand, instead of simply talking about it here and taking up space.
usage in a way has to do with power,but sometimes people just dont see the potential or it may not be used as often.
their is a better way to say this that i am not thinking of...
*Points at edit* Anyways, don't get me wrong; I can see the potential for the pokemon mentioned above. However, since were so close into the next metagame, this should be the opportunity for demonstrating the potential for these pogeys on the battlefield, so that others will see the possibilities. If they're used in bulk, they'll be more likely to move up during the transition.
as of now,im 19-6 with a team using raichu.
no not atm,i have seen some today. but i will keep looking.
Wynaut doesn't really make sense as an uber. Yes, it is Wobbufett with lower stats. But those lower stats are kinda important. Unless you subscribe to an odd theory that 190 HP lost is irrelevant...
The power of Wobbuffet is that almost nothing can OHKO it, or even 2HKO it, without any attack boosts. That way it can Counter or MC pretty much anything back for a KO, thus forcing a non-attacking move, guaranteeing a free turn. But with Wynaut, you have to be careful what you try to Encore against, because anything with a SE move will probably destroy you. On a 252 defenses Wynaut, even assuming benificial nature, it only takes 100 attack non-STAB Shadow Ball/Crunch to get a guaranteed 2HKO (okay, the minimum is technically 1 HP lower than needed, who cares?), which rather defeats the point of Encore. Non-benificial nature only needs 85 (2 too little minimum HP actually; again, who cares?).
BL is probably best for it. People should use it so it can get in OU. Too bad it's banned in the Smogon Tour.
The power of Wobbuffet is that almost nothing can OHKO it, or even 2HKO it, without any attack boosts. That way it can Counter or MC pretty much anything back for a KO, thus forcing a non-attacking move, guaranteeing a free turn. But with Wynaut, you have to be careful what you try to Encore against, because anything with a SE move will probably destroy you. On a 252 defenses Wynaut, even assuming benificial nature, it only takes 100 attack non-STAB Shadow Ball/Crunch to get a guaranteed 2HKO (okay, the minimum is technically 1 HP lower than needed, who cares?), which rather defeats the point of Encore. Non-benificial nature only needs 85 (2 too little minimum HP actually; again, who cares?).
BL is probably best for it. People should use it so it can get in OU. Too bad it's banned in the Smogon Tour.
I disagree on moving Breloom to BL. Ninjask too. I personally see them constantly. But that's just one man's opinion.