Most pokes are gimped if they're paralyzed.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Tobes
- Start date
Hydreigon can taunt it or use sub.
Amoongus really prefers Clear Smog over Stun Spore, and even if it does carry it taunt is going to prevent it. Heatran has no paralyzing moves.
Jirachi is probably the closest thing to a counter there is, it takes little from hurricane and focus blast/superpower. It can U-turn out though. That's why you need to keep it healthy through Wish, because if you just get hit by U-turn coming in over and over again without healing, you're going to lose.
Jolteon can naturally outspeed it, but it cannot switch in, the same with many scarfers. Poiltoed is good, but you have to use Timid if you want to outspeed. Bronzong and Metagross work similar to Jirachi (Metagross even has pursuit!) but they do not have recovery. You can always get rid of the weather with tyranitar, and he is a decent check as long as you avoid a Superpower or Focus Blast.
magic bounce espy is also pretty solid. the normal timid 252 spA/252spe variant can set up on slobro and amoongus pretty easily (unless it get's scalded). for heatran it may need a boost to start hp fighting it but also does pretty well unless it gets burned by lava plume...also a mixed venusaur (eq, hp fire, giga drain) can also handle that core pretty well, particularly in the sun.
Gengar running sludge bomb, shadow ball, focus blast (sub if you wanna avoid status)...offensive starmie...
So what? By your definition, it has to be able to beat slowbro if paralyzed before switching in, or it's not a counter? Isn't that being oddly specific? When talking about whether or not a Pokemon checks or counters another, you dot assume that the pokemon switching in has already been statuses - that doesn't even make sense.
or maybe my opponent's breloom mach punched my precious hydreigon and it's dead, oh noes i can't counter amoongbrotran anymore. clearly guys, hydreigon can't counter any core, because if it got mach punched or paralyzed, then gg core is invincible. obviously it doesn't matter that breloom wasn't in the core to begin with, because WHAT IF IT WAS
more seriously, how does this claim have anything to do with hydreigon being able to counter the core? most attackers suck once paralyzed; you need speed to be an effective attacker (with exceptions). does that mean that any core packing paralysis is uncounterable? a fourth mon packing paralysis might have paralyzed hydreigon but so what? that's not part of the core in question and is irrelevant to the discussion. in addition, unless it was body slam, chances are hydreigon could have taunted this mysterious fourth mon as well (there aren't many mons that use thunder wave AND invest significantly in speed), but now we're getting into a pointless rock paper scissors argument.
Specially defensive tyranitar can counter the specs set pretty well, provided he doesnt switch in to a focus blast. Sandstorm puts hurricane back at 70% acc and tyranitar´s rock typing naturally lets it absorb tornadus´s STAB attacks. Tyranitar can then threaten tornadus with stone edge or even pursuit. LO sets, however, are a different story...
I run life orb tornadus t with superpower specificallly for ttar and the pink blobs
The main issues with this are A.) Life Orb sets tend to be more common since Superpower destroys Ttar, pink blobs, and more reliably takes out Heatran and B.) the Specs set can just keep spamming U-Turn, (why wouldn't you when you have Regenerator and a switch-in you can see from a mile away) anticipating the Ttar switch-in every time, thus eventually wearing Ttar down or outright KOing it with Focus Blast, even through Chople Berry at a point.
what impact would shadow tag chandelure have on the meta when it's released? I know trapping is good obviously, but it's defenses are not very high. It's not gonna come in on a, say, choice-locked flare blitz darmanitan or at the end of a haxorus/dragonite outrage to take another one...Even with all the rain going around (it has died down a little), is it's impact going to be limited to a niche trapper like magnezone (yea i know it traps more than steels, but it can only take light/resisted hits). Maybe a good spin-blocker/killer of starmie?
edit: ok maybe breloom too but in the rain....?
edit: ok maybe breloom too but in the rain....?
Many are saying it'll go Uber, as it does decently in DW Ubers, particularly with Truant Entrainment Durant. I don't know. It's better than Magnezone in some regards, but we'll have to wait and see.
I would advise you to brush up on your reading skills, PK.
A specially defensive Jirachi is your best bet. It's a hard counter in most scenarios. It's either that or run priority and scarfed Pokemon in general. (It's pretty hard to get a handle T-T without changing the weather tbh.) The ideal anti-Tornadus-T team is probably a sand team w/ Jirachi.
I've come across this core before, and my mixed Meloetta managed to break it. (Which was surprising, because Meloetta normally doesn't do much.)
edit: As long as something has taken the Spore.
Mix (Meloetta) @ Life Orb
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SAtk / 56 Atk / 200 Spd
Naive Nature
- Relic Song
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Psychic
- Close Combat
- Thunderbolt
Close Combat hits Heatran, Psychic/HP Ice Amoongus and Thunderbolt Slowbro.
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SAtk / 56 Atk / 200 Spd
Naive Nature
- Relic Song
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Psychic
- Close Combat
- Thunderbolt
Close Combat hits Heatran, Psychic/HP Ice Amoongus and Thunderbolt Slowbro.
Meloetta also has the element of surprise, for now. Most people don't really seem to know what it's going to do until it does it.
Well, it's not very fast, so it'd need to run choice scarf to be useful against some threats...it also really can't take a hit from something like haxorus so it will need to be used carefully. I dont see it as an
Über but a fantastic revenge killer in OU definitely. Gothitelle just won't hack it in OU IMHO
Shadow Tag Chandelure is a fool-proof answer to any defensive pokemon with a SubCM set with Shadow ball and Flamethrower. Want to get rid of the opponent's Blissey or Chansey? Set up a Substitute, Calm Mind until you get +6 boosts and pound away with Flamethrower. You can do this with Slowbro, Amoongus, Jellicent, Ferrothorn, Forretress and Skarmory as well because all of them have weaknesses to Chandelure's suprisingly good STAB moves. Gliscor won't appreciate Chandelure either, but it is able to deal with it unlike the Pokémon previously mentioned. Chandelure also prevents all these Pokémon (apart from Gliscor) from supporting the team thanks to Chandelure's brilliant ability, its brilliant STABs and it's bone-crushing 145 Sp.Atk, and the opponents giving them a Shed Shell, the only way to deal with Chandelure, will mean they won't have passive recovery meaning weather conditions will wear them down, and therefore sand teams will rise in popularity as it seems that Garchomp might go down a tier thanks to Soul Dew Lati@s being introduced as well as Mamoswine rising in usage, and Excadrill won't be broken in OU anymore thanks to Keldeo and the popularity of rain teams. Sand teams would also rise in usage due to stall teams preparing for SubCM Chandelure, possibly the biggest threat stall teams will ever face bar Taunt, so Leftovers recovery will probably become a rarity. As for Choiced Chandelure, although I do think SubCM Chandelure will pose more of a threat, the Scarf variant will become one of the best revenge killers in the game thanks to the amount of threats it checks, and the Specs variant will be able to muscle through teams with its bone-crushing power. Due to all this I think we'll get a metagame built around Chandelure and we might get a check to Chandelure that isn't Heatran rising from the lower tiers, although thanks to its ability, I don't think there will be a true check to Chandelure and I think that the only true threat to Chandelure is prediction. I think SubCM Chandelure will cause stall to lose viability and it may spell UU or BL status for things like Forretress and Skarmory (Ferro will still see lots of usage due to rain teams). I also think that on the other end of the spectrum, pure offensive teams will hate Choiced Chandelure destroying their screener or their primary sweeper, and because of all these points, Chandelure will be at the top of its game in spinblocking, supporting, revenge-killing, trapping, destroying stall and even sweeping.
Edit: It will also serve well against your stereotypical Techniloom
I rather think that Scarf will be favored because the metagame is so much more offensive and SubCM Chandelure does not fare well against offense because of lack of setup opportunities.
EDIT: I think you overrate the power of a Pokemon weak to Stealth Rock, leaving it with limited switch-in opportunities, and 5 weaknesses to Rock-, Ground-, Water-, Dark-, and Ghost-type moves, as well as non-existent bulk. It is susceptible to every common form of residual damage. It's great, but it isn't knocking true-and-tested Pokemon like Skarmory and Forretress off the map.
EDIT2: and Skarm/Forry could use Shed Shell
i don't really see subcm chandelure having a great time seeing as it lacks recovery. sure, if you get enough cms against slowbro or what not, your subs might actually survive a scald, but there's no way you're gonna survive enough scalds to get that many boosts in the first place, seeing as chandelure has no bulk to speak of. you might be able to kill most of those mons because they're weak to your stabs, but you're not about to be setting up. you don't even stand a great chance against breloom, whose adamant LO bullet seed hits average 47ish percent. even uninvested ferrothorn's gyro ball can generally break your subs. the only reason subcm works so well against blissey is because of that immunity to seismic toss and bliss could just run a shed shell to solve that problem - it wasn't out of the question in DW OU. weakness to stealth rock and pursuit also makes you really easy to finish off. that's something scarf has to worry about more than sub ofc.
this being noted, shadow tag is still a deadly force of nature in pokemon. whether or not chandelure will be so game defining as to dominate the tier though, i'm dubious. i once faced a fire blast shadow tag lampent in challenge cup.... it was traumatizing
this being noted, shadow tag is still a deadly force of nature in pokemon. whether or not chandelure will be so game defining as to dominate the tier though, i'm dubious. i once faced a fire blast shadow tag lampent in challenge cup.... it was traumatizing
Tyranitar will absolutely ruin shadow tag chancy with pursuit...it will be revenge kill fodder 100% of the time. It will not be as metagame defining as people seem to think it will be
Having prior knowledge of Chandelure from playing a lot of Dream World, I feel I am more than qualified to comment on Chandelure's status in the future BW2 metagame. From a Dream World perspective, Chandelure was very common among a lot of teams, however the top teams (1337 rankings) showed that Chandelure was not really as common. Among the top tier teams where the vast majority were running Sandstorm, Chandelure was rarely seen. I'm not underestimating Chandelure's viability for a second, I just want to say that it really isn't as good as everyone is making it out to be. From experience, the only real viable Chandelure set was Choice Scarf. In an OU environment, Chandelure lacked the speed that a lot of top tier threats had. While I understand the current OU and the old Dream World are different tiers, they will soon be the same, even more so with the releases of Genesect and Keldeo. To make Chandelure work you had to make it Scarf, to outspeed some of the things it can actually trap. This also makes Chandelure a very solid revenge killer, trapping all the bulky steels that annoy offensive teams.
While Sub Calm Mind is a notable set, it really doesn't step up to the same standard that Scarf did. Sub Calm Mind Chandelure finds it very hard to set up, as there are very few things it can actually set up on. Most common defensive threats are carrying one attacking move just to avoid being set up fodder. Chandelure who lacks great defences will find it hard to set up. Ferrothorn with Power Whip or Bulldoze breaks Chandelure's Sub, as does Earthquake Forretress, Brave Bird Skarmory, Bullet Seed Breloom. Even variants of Scizor can U-Turn out from Chandelure breaking its Sub, and making it very easy to revenge given it's low speed stat. These are all reasons why Scarf Chandelure is superior to Sub Calm Mind, being able to immediately threat while your opponent cannot switch. Even when Sub Calm Mind has fully set up, it is pretty easily walled. Tyranitar and Heatran are two common mons that completely stop all variants of Chandelure, however not every team carries one of these Pokemon.
Despite all this, I do not think Chandelure will be bad in the future BW2 Metagame. It will be very interesting to see how it fares given the prevalence of Rain, which is a much different scene from Dream World. Chandelure as a whole will shape the metagame, should it not go Uber. In Dream World, stall teams were very rare, just for the fact that Chandelure trapped a lot of common members of stall including Ferrothorn, Forretress, Jellicent, Amoonguss and Skarmory. Those running stall teams were pressed to run Shed Shell on their defensive Steels, to avoid being trapped by Chandelure. Chandelure forced Sand usage to increase even more, with Tyranitar being the only real common answer to Chandelure, and other such checks to Chandelure where commonly used in Sand Teams, namely Garchomp and Excadrill. The vast majority of Tyranitars in Dream World adopted the Specially Defensive set with Pursuit specifically to trap Choice locked Chandelure. Higher up the ladder it was easy to see why Chandelure was not so common, as it was easily dealt with if you prepared for it.
Chandelure had a certain niche in Dream World, that made it one of the better things to use on offensive teams. Dream World was a tier where Garchomp and Excadrill roamed free, and they made great offensive partners for Chandelure. Chandelure was able to dispose of Gliscor / Skarmory / Breloom that stood in the way of Garchomp and Excadrill, giving them a lot easier time when trying to sweep. This offensive partnership was very hard to stop, and lead to even further use of Tyranitar to counter Chandelure, and inevitably more users of Shed Shell in the tier, such as Amoonguss and Breloom in some cases.
In the Dream World enviroment it was pretty easy to see that Chandelure was a little overcentralizing, but it was hardly noticed when such other behemoths were allowed in the tier, such as Excadrill, Garchomp, Thundurus and Manaphy. In an OU environment, I will be curious to see how it fares, especially now that Genesect will be released soon and OU is becoming more like Dream World. Will Rain deter Chandelure usage? Will Sand rise as a result of Chandelure? Will Chandelure be banned? These are all possible scenarios as a result of Chandelure potentially sculpting the current metagame.
While Sub Calm Mind is a notable set, it really doesn't step up to the same standard that Scarf did. Sub Calm Mind Chandelure finds it very hard to set up, as there are very few things it can actually set up on. Most common defensive threats are carrying one attacking move just to avoid being set up fodder. Chandelure who lacks great defences will find it hard to set up. Ferrothorn with Power Whip or Bulldoze breaks Chandelure's Sub, as does Earthquake Forretress, Brave Bird Skarmory, Bullet Seed Breloom. Even variants of Scizor can U-Turn out from Chandelure breaking its Sub, and making it very easy to revenge given it's low speed stat. These are all reasons why Scarf Chandelure is superior to Sub Calm Mind, being able to immediately threat while your opponent cannot switch. Even when Sub Calm Mind has fully set up, it is pretty easily walled. Tyranitar and Heatran are two common mons that completely stop all variants of Chandelure, however not every team carries one of these Pokemon.
Despite all this, I do not think Chandelure will be bad in the future BW2 Metagame. It will be very interesting to see how it fares given the prevalence of Rain, which is a much different scene from Dream World. Chandelure as a whole will shape the metagame, should it not go Uber. In Dream World, stall teams were very rare, just for the fact that Chandelure trapped a lot of common members of stall including Ferrothorn, Forretress, Jellicent, Amoonguss and Skarmory. Those running stall teams were pressed to run Shed Shell on their defensive Steels, to avoid being trapped by Chandelure. Chandelure forced Sand usage to increase even more, with Tyranitar being the only real common answer to Chandelure, and other such checks to Chandelure where commonly used in Sand Teams, namely Garchomp and Excadrill. The vast majority of Tyranitars in Dream World adopted the Specially Defensive set with Pursuit specifically to trap Choice locked Chandelure. Higher up the ladder it was easy to see why Chandelure was not so common, as it was easily dealt with if you prepared for it.
Chandelure had a certain niche in Dream World, that made it one of the better things to use on offensive teams. Dream World was a tier where Garchomp and Excadrill roamed free, and they made great offensive partners for Chandelure. Chandelure was able to dispose of Gliscor / Skarmory / Breloom that stood in the way of Garchomp and Excadrill, giving them a lot easier time when trying to sweep. This offensive partnership was very hard to stop, and lead to even further use of Tyranitar to counter Chandelure, and inevitably more users of Shed Shell in the tier, such as Amoonguss and Breloom in some cases.
In the Dream World enviroment it was pretty easy to see that Chandelure was a little overcentralizing, but it was hardly noticed when such other behemoths were allowed in the tier, such as Excadrill, Garchomp, Thundurus and Manaphy. In an OU environment, I will be curious to see how it fares, especially now that Genesect will be released soon and OU is becoming more like Dream World. Will Rain deter Chandelure usage? Will Sand rise as a result of Chandelure? Will Chandelure be banned? These are all possible scenarios as a result of Chandelure potentially sculpting the current metagame.