Little Cup Viability Rankings

[Ray Jay]

ATTN: This thread discusses viability in the LC metagame.

In other words, anything and everything you discuss MUST be replicatable on a cartridge legally. Any further discussion or theorymonning of illegal sets will lead to possible infractions.

 

[Oiawesome]

Anyway back to the real points still Tepig is intresting as it plays way diffrent from ponyta(exept scarf sets of course) in the way that it has superpower something ponyta would beg for and trades more speed(ponyta) for more bulk and attack really seems B or C to me,Oshawatt is C since some poke just hard wall SD and Its special sets are outclassed by things like RD Mantyke and RD Horsea,Although it does have a niche in going mixed[Mixed should always use SD and LO though since its pathetic on the physical Side without it).

 

[Artemisa]

I changed mine to be C rank on Rufflet in my post and yeah I forgot about brave bird.

 

[iss]

Tepig is worth a D. I haven't used it in a ridiculously long time, but it is overall too slow, too weak, and simply not bulky enough. Sure, Superpower and Head Smash are nice, but it only hits 21 Speed after a Flame Charge and is super fragile, so any Choice Scarfer will clean it up. Besides, it is a whole two points of Attack weaker than Ponyta, meaning that it'll fail to even kill anything without Life Orb (and with LO you're never going to get Flame Charge off).

Oshawott is also a D. Swords Dance is cool, but it just screams "why not use Shellder instead". Since the vast majority of priority moves are physical, and Shellder still has more defense than Oshawott after a Shell Smash, there really is not much point to use Oshawott. It is also fairly slow (15 max with Jolly) and Aqua Jet is just not enough to justify such a slow setup sweeper. Setting up is, again, difficult, so I really don't see the potential in Oshawott. It's not that bad, but it simply doesn't do SD well enough to justify a C rating.

 

[Oiawesome]

K I was iffy on both and iss cleared it up and Yeah they should be D,and lolsnivy too bad gen Vs starters didnt impact the meta at all really.

 

[thebrownie]

TryHarderPlox and PlzQuit here (number 2 and 5 on the ladder)

Tentacool is a very underrated pokemon in this meta, Liquid Ooze, while not ideal is a nice annoyance to drain punch users. Toxic spikes can completely cripple a team, even at 1 layer as many pokemon don't carry means of recovery. The major drawback is the lack of recovery, which could be taken care of with giga drain (I would't recommend). It's relatively niche, but it synergizes well with ferroseed.

Ultimately, in a meta dominated by fighting Pokemon and very few steel or poison, I'm surprised this Pokemon isn't used more. Still, I would recommend this as a B tier.

 

[Coconut]

The main problem with Tentacool is not only does it rely on Toxic Spikes, but in too many situations it can't hit back with anything too threatening. It's Defense stat is too low to wall anything physical. It also has no sort of attack power. The best it could do is a very subpar Scald. It's barely a check to the average fighting type. It's also a Poison type, which means it's beat by Ground, or even sand in general. I would say that C Tier is just the best place to put Tenta, despite it's high Special Defense.

 

[Good_Luck!]

I agree with thebrownie here. Tenta should be B.

Using it to place Toxic Spikes is just nuts in this meta of Foongus, Croagunk, Guts Timburr, Levitating Misdreavus, Bronzors and Shed Skin users; not to mention the common Heal Bell on Chinchou or Misdreavus.

The best use of Tentacool is its acces to Knock Off, Rapid Spin, Liquid Ooze and set of useful resistances (most notably Fighting); I know it has a poor defense but seeing as it can remove Scarfs, Eviolites and Sashes on its common swithc-ins (Chinchou, Abra) means that it is an outstanding utility 'mon. It's not meant to be a bulky attacker so its relative weak offenses are not that bad. It can also spread Toxic without TS for the many switches it causes. I would reccomend Giga Drain; it is a good check against Rest/Heal Bell Chinchou who can't do a thing against it. It can wear down Mienfoo and take off its eviolite.

Sure, it is beat by Sand Rushers but can put pressure on Lileep just by Toxic it and removing its Eviolite.

It's Defense stat is too low to wall anything physical.

I disagree. It can wall Fighting-types running Drain Punch which are... a lot of them!

It is a GREAT check to Snover if running Sludge Bomb, and even if it doesn't it can Toxic it and prevent it from using Giga Drain/Leech Seed or just remove its Scarf easing its kill. Its High SpD means it can slowly and peacefully wear down Misdreavus not caring about a burn. The 'mons it can potentially cripple and can't do a thing in return are S-rank or A-rank.

I don't think of it as niche because it can do many tasks well, being a pain for Bulky teams and checking HO by just sitting there restraining the "reliable recovery" of Giga Drain, Leech Seed, Giga Drain and others.

For me, it is B tier too.

 

[Delver]

My biggest concern with Tentacool at B is that its competing with Mienfoo for the "utility mon" slot. Personally, i have never used Tentacool, so the point of this post is more a point for discussion than a personal opinion.

'Cool brings to a team a great hazard in the form of toxic spikes, a fighting resist, Liquid Ooze to beat drain punchers, and rapid spin. Mienfoo lacks all of these things, however he makes up for it with an increased offensive presence which allows for you to gain/hold momentum as well as let it win some Unboosted drain punch wars, and significantly more bulk to make up for its lack of a key resistance. Rapid spin is pretty much the only thing that tenta has that mienfoo cannot do, but so long as Drilbur and staryu exist there will be better (faster, stronger, able to beat common spinblockers) spinners. So my question is; in a metagame where balanced teams run rampant, is tentacool's support too passive? In otherwords in the turns you have tentacool out are you providing your opponent with too much time to accomplish his goals while you're setting spikes, spinning hazards, etc?

Like i said, i have *never* used tentacool so I really don't have an opinion here, but would really like to know what the more experienced players say. My total experience with tentacool scales waaay back to before the second gligar ban and some one spent 3 turns spinning and setting up toxic spikes, to which i just switched in a Croagunk and set up. Its not a really relevant anecdote due to the differences in metagames and quetionable usage of the mon, but i wanted to provide a frame of reference for how little i know about tentacool.

edit: <3 thanks corkscrew

 

[Rowan]

Update List of Stuff

Anorith - Gengan "C" Post 103
Aron – Gengan, Corkscrew "D" Post 103/206
Barboach - Good_Luck "C" Post 198
Bulbasaur - Good_Luck "B" Post 77
Cacnea - Corkscrew "C" Post 162
Charmander - Delver "D" Post 118
Chimchar – Delver, Corkscrew "D" Post 118/206
Clamperl - Corkscrew "B" Post 162
Cranidos - Macle "C-D" Post 104, Corkscrew “C” 206
Cyndaquil - Delver "D" Post 118
Darumaka - Macle "C-D" Post 104, Good_Luck “C” Post 207, Delver “D” Post 208
Deino - Delver "Low C-High D" Post 112
Ducklett - Gengan "Low C" Post 60
Ekans - Lady Gaga "B" Post 80; Gengan "C" post 81
Frillish - Gengan "C" Post 60; Delver, Corkscrew, Chieliee "B" post 76/206/221
Goldeen - Good_Luck "D" Post 198
Golett - Gengan "C" Post 60
Gothita - Delver "D" Post 152
Growlithe - Delver "C" Post 118, Corkscrew “D” Post 206
Joltik - Nozzle "C" Post 99
Krabby - Good_Luck "C" Post 198
Lickitung - Good_Luck, Corkscrew "B" Post 71/206
Litwick - Gengan "C" Post 60
Munchlax - Good_luck "B" Post 71
Natu - Corkscrew "B" Post 55
Oshawott - MapleDoom "C" Post 195, iss “D” Post 229
Pidgey - Delver "E" Post 154
Ponyta – Delver, Good_Luck "B" Post 118/166
Rufflet - Delver "C" Post 154, Good Luck “B” Post 207
Sandshrew – Good_Luck, Delver “C” Post 207/208, Woodchuck “B” Post 210
Shelmet - Corkscrew "B" Post 162
Slowpoke - Corkscrew "B" Post 162
Swablu - Delver "C" Post 154
Tentacool – thebrownie, Good_Luck “B” Post 231/233, DatCoconut “C” Post 232
Tepig - Delver "D" Post 118
Tirtouga - Corkscrew "A" Post 97
Torchic - Delver "D" Post 118
Totodile - Delver "C" Post 208
Vullaby - Good_Luck, Corkscrew "B" Post 115/206
Wooper - Donphantastic "B" Post 177, Good_Luck "C" Post 180

I've updated the list of nominations/agreements. Let me know if I've missed anything, which I probably have.

 

[macle]

Frillish moved to B
Vullaby to B
Cranidos to D
Chimchar to D

 

[thebrownie]

Scald is better than giga drain because it threatens physical Pokemon out with burn while doing viable damage (since most physical types have no recovery and if they do it's through drain punch). Staying in on ground types and water types and Staryu/chincinou is risky, even with giga drain.

Drillbur and Tentacool are better overall pokemon, but with knockoff/scald/liquid ooze/toxic spikes there are games where it's game breaking. Get a burn on the right poke, toxic spikes a team weak to poison, knockoff eviolite or 2 to gurantee a revenge kill.

I'm not saying it's the best Pokemon, but it's never really 1hko and with 1 knockoff/scald/spikes or even a rapid spin, it can really swing the game in your favor.

TBH one of the most satisfying reasons why I use tentacool is because a low health mienfoo will ko itself to a drain punch.

 

[Ray Jay]

What keeps Bronzor from A rank? One of the most reliable SR setters, walls the combo of Hippo + Drilbur super hard, has incredible typing, and makes up for the lack of reliable recovery by being just so much bulkier than most walls, especially in the b tier.

 

[Woodchuck]

Bronzor is bulky, but it's weak as hell. Anything that's not vulnerable to Toxic can pretty much have its way with Bronzor and I personally dislike its tendency to bleed momentum wherever it goes. It lets Scraggy set up, it lets Misdreavus set up, Ferroseed gets 3 layers of Spikes up..
If it's worth A tier, that would be due to its ability to "wall" Hippo + Drilbur (even though it is so weak that it loses to SD Shadow Claw Drilbur because it can't 3HKO) which admittedly is a nice niche. Unfortunately, more often than not I find Bronzor to be dead weight in the later stages of a match because it's been worn down and can't kill anything. Ferroseed can suffer from this problem too.

That said, other than Lileep, Bronzor is probably the most consistent SR setter in the tier.

 

[Celestavian]

In my opinion, Bronzor is there because it simply exists in battle, and can't do much damage outside of chipping away at stuff with its weak base 24 attacking stats. It also can't beat the two best Rapid Spinners in the metagame which are Staryu and Drilbur. Toxic can hurt, sure, but when Staryu just uses Natural Cure and Mold Breaker Drilbur smashes you with EQ, Stealth Rock doesn't stay up for very long. It also doesn't resist Fighting, which means that Mienfoo just wears you down over the period of the battle, while Timburr and Scraggy set up on you. While it is the very definition of "wall" in the LC metagame, don't forget the part of the definition of wall that says "just sits there".

Edit: ninja'd!

 

[Rowan]

What keeps Bronzor from A rank? One of the most reliable SR setters, walls the combo of Hippo + Drilbur super hard, has incredible typing, and makes up for the lack of reliable recovery by being just so much bulkier than most walls, especially in the b tier.

Bronzor is a great pokemon to have on any team, due to the sheer amount of stuff it can wall. It can beat Lileep with ease so it can pretty much wall 2/3 of double rush teams. The only thing that keeps it from being A-tier for me, is that you can exploit it's weaknesses easily. Many set-up sweepers just laugh at it, Scraggy, Timburr, Misdreavus etc., and if you carry a magnemite, like a lot of sand teams do, it's not hard to remove. If you're relying on Bronzor as a sand-check and they have Magnemite then you're not using a very good sand-check imo.

 

[JacobNinja]

having used magnemite against Bronzor, more of them carry eq than you expect.

 

[Delver]

Hawkstar/Woodchuck put it best, in my opinion. Bronzor just sort of exists on your team. it acts as a damage sponge that can spew rocks onto a field when you need to. It does wall a large portion, if not a majority of the metagame, but its just so easy to wear down, set up on etc that any competent player can work around it fairly easily.

Though, maybe im misunderstanding the word "consistent" but doesnt Dwebble *guarantee* rocks to be set up? That sounds hella consistent to me :/

 

[Rowan]

having used magnemite against Bronzor, more of them carry eq than you expect.

Yeah, but you have to predict the switch in as most Magnemite carry Magnet Rise. Also, Bronzor's EQ against bulky magnemite does 76% 15/16 times meaning that Magnemite can switch in, magnet rise and take it out. It doesn't matter about the low health as that's Magnemite's job done.

Can someone check my calc, that sounds very weak for something 4x effective?

 

[Woodchuck]

4 Atk Bronzor Earthquake vs. 156 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Magnemite: 16-20 (76.19 - 95.23%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Bronzor is weak as hell, and I'd assume that Stealth Rock is not going to be up if Magnemite is trapping Bronzor because Bronzor is typically the SR setter.
Of course, Magnemite can't OHKO (and almost never 2HKOes), so Bronzor actually still wins if it Earthquakes on the switch and then chips 1 HP off Magnemite at a time with Flash Cannon.

Hawkstar/Woodchuck put it best, in my opinion. Bronzor just sort of exists on your team. it acts as a damage sponge that can spew rocks onto a field when you need to. It does wall a large portion, if not a majority of the metagame, but its just so easy to wear down, set up on etc that any competent player can work around it fairly easily.

Though, maybe im misunderstanding the word "consistent" but doesnt Dwebble *guarantee* rocks to be set up? That sounds hella consistent to me :/

Bronzor can come into the game at any time and use its resistances to set up, whereas Dwebble must come in early in the battle to avoid having Sturdy broken by hazards.

Dwebble itself is an interesting hazard layer. Thanks to its good offenses and decent speed, I would normally argue for it to be the best offensive hazard layer in Little Cup. It can use Sturdy to get up generally at least Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes, and Rock Blast foils Murkrow from setting up. Unfortunately, two main things hold it back: it loses hard to Staryu and it is total setup fodder for Scraggy. The second aspect is honestly more aggravating: if it were not for Scraggy, I could lead with Dwebble in a hyper offense team and pair it with something like Snover or Toxicroak to wrest momentum from any Staryu that appear. Unfortunately, I have to be extremely careful with Dwebble against Scraggy teams, because having Scraggy in against Dwebble is pretty much guaranteeing a free Dragon Dance.

If only Dwebble had Taunt...

 

[Ray Jay]

The problem with your statement, Delver, is that there are literally no SR setters (excluding Drilbur) that do anything besides act as a sponge. There's even Dwebble, who sets up SR and can't sponge hits and provides little offensive momentum (basically just punishes teams that dont use a spinner, if we're honest). Bronzor is a great SR setter because it fits the mold of a great SR setter in the current meta: sponge hits and spew rocks, as Woodchuck put it. Lileep, Bronzor, Hippopotas, Ferroseed... they are each useful for setting up rocks and providing a resistance to a particular niche in the metagame (Lileep beats Waters, Bronzor beats sand, Hippo beats Fighters, Ferro beats waters again). I'm suggesting that Bronzor should be A tier on the basis of beating a large portion of standard sand teams + SR access is a niche that is honestly THAT good in this metagame.

 

[Celestavian]

Except Bronzor doesn't actually "beat" sand teams in an objective sense. Bronzor is an obstacle that needs to be overcome to win, not something that actually defeats sand teams. It is offensively inert, and so relies on its teammates to do all the attacking for it, with the exception of when it attacks a Pokemon weak to its STAB moves. Alone, it beats nothing, and just sits around after deploying Stealth Rocks waiting to be KOed. It can Toxic stall Hippopotas to death, but since no one keeps it in on Bronzor unless it has Fire Fang or something, it just switches out until Bronzor is gone. If Bronzor had a way of beating sand teams rather than just taking resisted STABs and coverage moves until it dies, then perhaps it would be A tier.

 

[thebrownie]

This is precisely the point. The reason why I believe that ferroseed is more viable than Bronzor is because it has stuff to do vs hippo, even if hippo can basically 4hko it with leech seed. Putting up spikes and rocks is something no team would want. Especially given how hard it is to spin away hazards in this meta. Given how many ghosts there are and how easy spinners are revenged killed. (Drilbur being the hardest to revenge kill, but usually missy gets Drilbur down low enough where even if it can get a spin off spin you kill it that turn and get rid of their main sand threat.

 

[Chieliee]

What keeps Bronzor from A rank? One of the most reliable SR setters, walls the combo of Hippo + Drilbur super hard, has incredible typing, and makes up for the lack of reliable recovery by being just so much bulkier than most walls, especially in the b tier.

it can also be used by nubs and be a complete dick with shit like hypnosis+dual screens which is actually really bad but annoying as fuck

 

[Oiawesome]

Nominating Cranidos for B
I relize this may not make much sense and will probaly rejected but here is my argument:Cranidos is a monster 125 attack the highest offensive stat in LC and second highest stat overall only second to onixes defense.And Cranidoses typing is one of the best prpviding it with exelant moves such as rock polish,STAB Stone Edge and the SDef. Boost in sand.What really sticks out is Cranidoses acess to double dance and is a damn good user of the SD+RP Combo all you have to do,is see what playstyle the opponent is using and use the appropriate dance!Because At +2 Attack Cranidos can 2HKO evrey poke in LC w/o LO through MoldBreaker Edgequake , and At +2 Speed Cranidos outspeeds evrey pokemon in LC exept SandBur(Sand Rush Drilbur in sand) and to speed tie with SandBur all you need to do is use a jolly nature.Although bieng a prehistoric rockasorus does not come without it's cons as : Cranidos is weak to 2 diffrent priority(Almost no poke in LC uses Vaccum Wave) and without a boost it is easily revenged and NEEDS to force switches in order to set up against HO.Although these flaws are noticible,It's positive traits still outshine its negetive ones though,but isnt simply effective enough to be A or S so B is a perfect spot to be.(lol pun)