Little Cup Viability Rankings

[prem]

how about i just counter argue and say CRANIDOS FOR D. honestly its huge attack means nothing for any set for a choice scarf, which would be really effective if this meta wasnt fightint types plus double rush. too many common threats just completely wreck cranidos, and its inability to ohko EVERYTHING is an issue, because it has 0 bulk. first off, have fun getting a cranidos in at +2 in anyway, and then have fun trying to either outspeed their mons, or fail to ohko them and therefore get ohkoed back. its typing is balls, its defenses are balls, and its offenses arent enough to make up for those 2 sets of balls.

also ima fix this now and say solosis for c. solosis is a strong mon and much better than shit like chimchar. it has beastly attack, 2 great abilities in regen and magic guard, trick room for trolls, hell it even has an ubers analysis cause its so great (yes i know this is completely irrelevant rayjay dont kill me :D). 20 spa is great and trick room is actually pretty great in a double rush format. it hits fucking hard, and thats what matters. it can also run a bulky set but thats like out classed by elgylemfuck.

then elgyem (idk how to spell its name) for c+ b- lol. analytic just makes this thing a monster. i would say its a solid b but hoenstly its bulk just isnt as great as em says it is. its a bulky attacker that has great coverage, recovery, and gets a free lo boost 90% of the time. the boost is so amazing, that ven i like it and i run shit like no evio cause evio makes things too slow. its biggest flaw is mienfoo uturning all day but honestly thats gay for everything, making it basically a nonissue.

also pawniard for c. why is that thing a b... its not very bulky, it doesnt hit very hard, its typig is fucking horrible this meta... why :( i understand it has pretty good stabs, and stab sucker punch, and higih attack, and swords dance, but thats all it has. it has bad defenses augmented by horrible typing. steel typing is worth very little in lc when the most common attack types as far as im concerned are fighting and ground. its more of a hinderence than a plus, especially when anything that has stabs that are resisted by fightning it will have a se attack against pawniard. i dont see why anyone would want to use this over murkrow or houndour, because its typing really just shits on it

 

[Oiawesome]

how about i just counter argue and say CRANIDOS FOR D. honestly its huge attack means nothing for any set for a choice scarf, which would be really effective if this meta wasnt fightint types plus double rush. too many common threats just completely wreck cranidos, and its inability to ohko EVERYTHING is an issue, because it has 0 bulk. first off, have fun getting a cranidos in at +2 in anyway, and then have fun trying to either outspeed their mons, or fail to ohko them and therefore get ohkoed back. its typing is balls, its defenses are balls, and its offenses arent enough to make up for those 2 sets

Nothing in this meta is @ even 30% of usage!I hate people who say this is a fighting meta,because,THEIR ARE ONLY 3 VIABLE FIGHTING TYPES IN THIS META.And double rush is also very low usage and isnt meta dominating,its more of drilbur.And with Cranidoses movepool and attack you have no problem forcing switches to boost and if you think unboosted sandshrew forces out eviolite cranidos you are wrong,because of your mistake you SD,cranidos SDs and most likely since you switch into cranidos crani will have +2/+2 and can OHKO standerd SDshrew and if your running jolly,drilbur too.AndStall cant do shit to cranidos while he SDs and OHKOs /2HKOs all of your mons with EVIOLITE and how is its typing balls?+1 SDef. STAB Stone Edge and HEAD SMASH Im not kidding Choice Band Head Smash can 2HKO Standerd Hippopotas.Eviolite fixes defenses just a little,And its one set.

 

[Delver]

@chie: I thought bronzor couldnt use hypnosis with the pomeg? am i wrong or is that PS! being bad at enforcing move illegalities?

@Prem/Oi Cranidos is bad. Its only good set: Choice Scarf; is fucked over by the current meta (fighting types + sandrush, as prem said) and really can't do much unless things that resist it are dead. Dancing is theoretically cool but it just wont work. It's been said already, its far too easy to revenge and it lacks either the defenses or the speed to give that monsterous attack stat the back up it needs.

Edit for ninja post:

The viable fighting types of the teir include, but not limited to (in a loose order of decending viability) mienfoo, scraggy, riolu, timburr, croagunk. The reason the teir is concidered to have a "fighting meta game" despite the low # of mons that actually sport the fighting type is that I can garuntee you 99% of the time that every single competitively viable team you will face will have one of those mons on it. Each of them is prepped and ready to completely tear apart a team that lacks an answer for it, and thus a metagame around fighting type is created. The only time i can think of that I ever made a team without a fighting type of some kind was when i made a Double Rush team; where i opted for Frillish / Lileep / Magnemite for my coverage.

As for cranidos itself, theres some flaws in your reasoning: firstly, Cranidos really *doesnt* have a very diverse movepool. All it gets for coverage is STAB rocks, Earthquake, Hammer Arm, Crunch and Zen Headbutt; and of them, on dancing set i'd really only concider Zen Headbutt to hit fighting types since hammer arm and EQ have similiar coverage, and EQ dosnt have a down fall, and a super effective crunch is only 10bp higher than a neutral stab Stone Edge vs ghosts. Against DOUBLE dancing, you lose your coverage completely, opting for EdgeQuake coverage. This makes sweeping harder in favor of a more flexible set up. If you get your boost, and you supported it the way you need to, yes Cranidos will wreck house, but so will scraggy, who can do the same thing with significntly less support. At the end of the day, cranidos's terrible defenses and slightly-below-par speed will keep it from being able to do what you want it to do reliably and consistently .

 

[thebrownie]

Cranidos is terrible, the only viable set doesn't 1hko anything that it out speeds and gets 1hko by all fighting types (iirc). It doesn't matter that choice band 2hko hippo if it gets 1hko by hippos earthquake. I suppose a swords dance set can get a surpise 1hko off of a fighting pokemon, but that's what we call a gimmick, not a viable strategy as some mienfoo are scarfed or carry priority.

 

[Good_Luck!]

Bronzor with Hypnosis is now legal as the level it learns it in BW2 was reduced from 7 to 5.

I played with Cranidos on a sand team prior the BW2 and it wasn't that bad as a Rock Polisher due to its big Attack stat and good Spe after a boost. Rock Polish/Earthquake/Stone Edge/Crunch was enough to try a sweep. Sure, it was outclassed by Drilbur but the SpD boost and an eviolite helped a lot. I think it does hit hard enough to sweep with a weakened team, just like Drilbur but drilbur isn't weak to priority. I didn't had a hard time setting it up as I switched after a KO.

That was before BW2, though. Now I can't see a reason to place it in B when there are much better sweepers in the tier. I wanted it in C but this meta is SO unkind with Rock-types as it's hard to fit into a team without accentuating a Fighting/Ground weakness. It's not bad, it's just in a bad situation.

 

[Delver]

Umm just as a way to get the thread a little more concentrated, I'd like it if we could all just go to corkscrew's post here and just give our opinions on the mons listed and if any of them are unable to reach a general consesnsus we discus them then - a lot of the things on this list were brought up some 100 posts ago and I think it'd be good to get them in a teir soon so we can continue dredging through the list of unlisted mons.

Update List of Stuff And Delver's Opinions!

Anorith - Gengan "C" Post 103
I agree, C

Aron – Gengan, Corkscrew "D" Post 103/206
I agree, D

Barboach - Good_Luck "C" Post 198
I disagree, D - its outclassed by other dragon dancers, many of which share a typing

Bulbasaur - Good_Luck "B" Post 77
I disagree, C - not totally convinced a grass type bulky attacker niche is worthy of B rank. Havent tried it yet though, willing to reconcider after i get some experience with the set

Cacnea - Corkscrew "C" Post 162
I agree, C

Charmander - Delver "D" Post 118
I agree, D

Chimchar – Delver, Corkscrew "D" Post 118/206
Already Ranked at D

Clamperl - Corkscrew "B" Post 162
I agree, B - feel it should be lower but have no real argument to put it lower

Cranidos - Macle "C-D" Post 104, Corkscrew “C” 206
Already Ranked at D

Cyndaquil - Delver "D" Post 118
I agree, D

Darumaka - Macle "C-D" Post 104, Good_Luck “C” Post 207, Delver “D” Post 208
I agree, D

Deino - Delver "Low C-High D" Post 112
I agree, D

Ducklett - Gengan "Low C" Post 60
I disagree, D its bad and accomplished nothing that other mons cant do better

Ekans - Lady Gaga "B" Post 80; Gengan "C" post 81
Abstain

Frillish - Gengan "C" Post 60; Delver, Corkscrew, Chieliee "B" post 76/206/221
Already ranked at B

Goldeen - Good_Luck "D" Post 198
I agree, D

Golett - Gengan "C" Post 60
I agree, C

Gothita - Delver "D" Post 152
I agree, D

Growlithe - Delver "C" Post 118, Corkscrew “D” Post 206
Abstain unless we start discussing

Joltik - Nozzle "C" Post 99
I disagree, D- I just never saw one and thought "oh no a threat"

Krabby - Good_Luck "C" Post 198
I agree, C

Lickitung - Good_Luck, Corkscrew "B" Post 71/206
I agree, B

Litwick - Gengan "C" Post 60
I disagree, D its too slow and has a lot of common weaknesses

Munchlax - Good_luck "B" Post 71
Abstain

Natu - Corkscrew "B" Post 55
I agree, B

Oshawott - MapleDoom "C" Post 195, iss “D” Post 229
I agree with iss, D

Pidgey - Delver "E" Post 154
I disagree, F it is absolutely terrible.

Ponyta – Delver, Good_Luck "B" Post 118/166
I agree, B

Rufflet - Delver "C" Post 154, Good Luck “B” Post 207
I agree, C

Sandshrew – Good_Luck, Delver “C” Post 207/208, Woodchuck “B” Post 210
I agree, C

Shelmet - Corkscrew "B" Post 162
I disagree, C - new meta isnt nice to it

Slowpoke - Corkscrew "B" Post 162
I disagree, C - new meta isnt nice to it

Swablu - Delver "C" Post 154
I disagree, D - its just a bad lickitong, use lickitong

Tentacool – thebrownie, Good_Luck “B” Post 231/233, DatCoconut “C” Post 232
Abstain

Tepig - Delver "D" Post 118
I agree, D
Tirtouga - Corkscrew "A" Post 97
I agree, A

Torchic - Delver "D" Post 118
I agree, D

Totodile - Delver "C" Post 208
I agree, C

Vullaby - Good_Luck, Corkscrew "B" Post 115/206
Already Ranked at B

Wooper - Donphantastic "B" Post 177, Good_Luck "C" Post 180
I disagree, D - no one really convinced me it could handle the stronger set uppers

 

[macle]

Just updated the list. Too much shit to remember.

 

[The 1 and Only Lady Gaga]

Erm since my post in page 4 didn't seem to get much notice, I'll just say this again; pardon me if this counts as double posting.

I nominate Ekans for B rank. It can choose to go offensive with the Coil set, or go on the defensive with Glare + Switcheroo + Swagger. It even gets two great abilities to suit either set, and if it has Intimidate that makes it a check, if not an outright counter to some of the most popular Pokemon in LC such as Mienfoo, Timburr, Croagunk, Scraggy etc. While Koffing does provide some competition as a Poison type with Levitate and the ability to use Fire Blast to get past Bronzor, Ekans actually has higher defenses (Assuming Intimidate) than Koffing, both physical and special, in addition to the ability to severely irritate the opponent with the combination of Glare + Switcheroo + Swagger. Of course, rather underwhelming stats and a weakness to Ground attacks (Watch out for Drilbur and Diglett unless you can hit with Glare on the switch-in) do limit its effectiveness quite a bit, but Ekans is nonetheless an underrated Pokemon whom I believe deserves more usage. Another person said it was C rank but let's look at the definition:

B rank: Reserved for Pokemon who are great in the LC metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

C rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the LC metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in LC. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

IMO Ekans doesn't require significant support, just the removal of a few troublesome Pokemon like Bronzor (Whom Ekans can completely screw over if it manages to Switcheroo a Choice Scarf onto it) and Drilbur; with the popularity of Fighting types such as Mienfoo, Timburr, Scraggy, Croagunk etc. Ekans should have plenty of opportunities to switch and start boosting with Coil or create mayhem with the combination of Glare + Switcheroo + Swagger. While Ekans has some competition from Koffing whom has Levitate and Fire Blast, Ekans already has better defenses on both the physical (Once again, assuming Intimidate) and special end in addition to the combination of Glare + Switcheroo + Swagger, which Koffing does not possess to differentiate itself.

 

[Delver]

I know i said i'd abstain from ekans discussion, but i have this weird bump in my chest so i figured i should do it anyways

Awesomely subtle jokes aside, my biggest complaint with ekans for B is that it has way too much competition from Croagunk. Croagunk who can basically do everything ekans can do, but with the addition of having a fighting stab to do it with. They can both set up for sweeps, ekans via coil and croagunk via bulk up; they both act as effective fighting type checks, with croagunk having the added bonus of a water immunity which provides recovery - however unreliable. ekans on the other hand has to take intimidate's damage reduction - which is by no means bad; but personally I'd take the water immunity. they're both weak to psychic attacks, but the only really common thing (bar bronzor which is terrible) to use psychic attacks is Abra - who will OHKO either unless my calcs are off.

I will refrain from saying "it should be C" because I abstained for a reason - i had no experience with ekans in the past and honestly i dont really intend to for the future. However, I'd like you to convince me that Ekans has enough of a disernable niche from croagunk, or that he can do what croagunk does just as well or better that he deserves the B teir. "walling fighting types" really isnt enough. Croagunk does that, deals with pesky water types, acts as an amazing revenge killer or bulk-up sweeper etc.

 

[Nozzle]

I changed my mind on Joltik. Its SR weak and is outclassed as a voltturn scarfer by magnemite, chinchou and larvesta. It's a D mon.

I nominate Shellos for D rank or possibly low C. Its very bulky and it has numerous utility moves in Scald, Clear Smog, Toxic and Yawn. It also has reliable recovery in Recover. Of course it is outclassed as a bulky water type by Frillish, Slowpoke and Chinchou. Staryu has less bulk but more offensive presence. It's actually quite a decent poke. Although the West forme is ugly as hell.

Also nominating Zigzagoon for D tier. Zigzagoon is the ultimate glass cannon. Kill or get killed. The standard Zigzagoon will try to set up Belly drum on a harmless poke and Extremespeed everything. It got 4 problems, Steel types, Ghost types, Fake out and difficulty to set up. Most players carry a fake out user and nearly all teams carry a Steel or a Ghost type which it cant beat due to lacking coverage.


You guys made me curious about Ekans. I got to check that out.

 

[Oiawesome]

Koffing for A

This may seem weird at first but let me put it this way: Koffing can wall evrey viable physical attacker in LC exept MB Drilbur and Hutsle Darumaka, Yep. And it boasts A resistance to fighting and a immunity to ground wich are godsends in this metagame and to glue it all together it has WoW,Clear Smog,Pain Split,and The currently highest defense in LC standing at 95. It hard counter all of the S's exept missy:Mienfoo fails to even 3HKO(Bulky Foo),And gets burned and Pain Splitted and Fire Blasted to death, LO varients fail to 2HKO. Murkrow:Calm Mind:Consecutive Clear Smogs and Fire Blasts hurts al while you cant even 2HKO.Physical/ Mixed Murkrows: All of them fail to 2HKO,get burned pain splited,and Fire Blasted to death.Drilbur*Only SAND RUSH*: Even at +2 non burned rock slide dosent 2HKO and gets burned,splitted,and F.Blasted to death.Not only that it can counter evrey fighting type in this meta and evrey non mold breaker ground type in LC. All of this with one set,Name a VIABLE physical attacker not named HutsleMaka or Cranidos or MB Drilbur,And Ill show you how Koffing beats it. Koffing is the best physical wall in LC. No.doubt.

 

[Chieliee]

Koffing is amazing at what it does (wall physical attackers) but aside from that, it doesn't really do anything. I'd give it a B rank, mostly because of unreliable recovery (don't call pain split reliable, any smart player can easily play around or even abuse it) It's good, but not as good as you claim it to be


to answer your question:
Zen headbutt scraggy (isn't really used but it should be)
Sub BU Croagunk (on the edge of being viable, but still..)
Sunny Day Ponyta (you can't do shit to it)
and obviously HP Psychic Mienfoo (jk but it's goooood)

also, you didn't menion the fact that mienfoo can knock off, then u turn to a special attacker to force it back out. Without eviolite, koffing is a lot less bulky.

 

[Delver]

Koffing for S if not,A

This may seem weird at first but let me put it this way: [B]Koffing can wall evrey viable physical attacker in LC exept MB Drilbur and Hutsle Darumaka[/B], Yep.And it boasts A resistance to fighting and a immunity to ground wich are godsends in this metagame and to glue it all together it has WoW,Clear Smog,Pain Split,and The currently highest defense in LC standing at 95.It hard counter all of the S's exept missy:Mienfoo fails to even 3HKO(Bulky Foo),And gets burned and Pain Splitted and Fire Blasted to death,LO varients fail to 2HKO.Murkrow:Calm Mind:Consecutive Clear Smogs and Fire Blasts hurts al while you cant even 2HKO.Physical/ Mixed Murkrows:All of them fail to 2HKO,get burned pain splited,and Fire Blasted to death.Drilbur*Only SAND RUSH*:Even at +2 non burned rock slide dosent 2HKO and gets burned,splitted,and F.Blasted to death.Not only that it can counter evrey fighting type in this meta and evrey non mold breaker ground type in LC.All of this with one set,Name a VIABLE physical attacker not named HutsleMaka or Cranidos or MB Drilbur,And Ill show you how Koffing beats it.Koffing is the best physical wall in LC.No.doubt.[/QUOTE]

First lemme just thank you; cause despite how often i disagree with you at the very least you get discussion on mons going - which is something this thread needs.

Abra. You need to remember that in pokemon, there will be only 1 instance in a game where a 1 on 1 match up will exist, and thats after 5 mons on each team are removed. needless to say this will rarely happen. At the risk of sounding like a jerk (which is the exact opposite of what im going for), try and take a look at Koffing out of the vacuum of a one on one fight and you'll see why it really shouldnt be concidered S teir. 

Koffing has a noticible niche in being a very good sand check, being immune to their stabs, and having the physical bulk to take their other attacks, while clear smogging away their boosts. Koffing also has (barely) reliable recovery in painsplit which immediately puts it LEAGUES AHEAD of Bronzor in this roll. however, Koffing, much like many other defensive poison types is cursed by its typing and mediocre special defenses. It also doesnt have the same 'offensive' presence as other walls, notably Lileep. All in all koffing isnt *bad* by any means it's just no where near as good or as versitile as the S teir mons are. Koffing has one good niche as a sand check where I'd be willing to say it actually out performs many other mons, however thats really *all* it can do with out being outclassed by other walls such as Frillish and Lileep, or even bulky offensive mons like Missy. At most I'd conciser it a B teir, though I'm feeling more of a C on this one.

Also, again without being an asshole, if you could just put spaces between sentences, it will make your posts much more aesthetically pleasing and easier to read.

 

[Oiawesome]

Koffing is amazing at what it does (wall physical attackers) but aside from that, it doesn't really do anything. I'd give it a B rank, mostly because of unreliable recovery (don't call pain split reliable, any smart player can easily play around or even abuse it) It's good, but not as good as you claim it to be


to answer your question:
Zen headbutt scraggy (isn't really used but it should be)
lol no it can tank one zen. Burn it and stall and wait
Sub BU Croagunk (on the edge of being viable, but still..)
You can play around it
Sunny Day Ponyta (you can't do shit to it)
Oh damn I forgot about this guy
and obviously HP Psychic Mienfoo (jk but it's goooood)

also, you didn't menion the fact that mienfoo can knock off, then u turn to a special attacker to force it back out. Without eviolite, koffing is a lot less bulky.
I said it counters mienfoo not the pokemon mienfoo u turns to

also you should try to read this.it is really hard.do you know you have to use spaces after periods?i don't think you do.if you don't,you almost cant read a text.take this one as an example.

 

[Delver]

@nozzel because your post completely missed my eye in my last post:

--Joltik = You basically listed all of the counter arguments i came up with for why it should be D if this became a discussion. Unless anyone else objects I think its safe to say macle can put it in D.

--Shellos = I honestly think the only thing keeping shellos from being a really good wall like his big brother gastrodon is its lack of ground typing. without it though it mostly just ends up playing as a lileep that is also sucking up your Bulky-water slot. I can agree with a D ranking.

--zigzagoon = FUCK EXTREMESPEED. gets me *every* fucking time. unfortunately i think Belly Drum is too gimmicky a strategy even in the higher teirs to even concider using. That may be some personal bias, but shrug. I could agree with D.

I know you all loved how poorly i set this post up. Its ok; you can put a ring on it. I'm not overly protective of it.

 

[Chieliee]

Scraggy has shed skin. Koffing will lose 30% of the time to this set. Not reliable.
How the fuck do you play around subbu croagunk. Fire blast only has 8 pp, you know. With a few smart switches you'll waste a few of them and you're done with. (we should actually quit with this discussion because noone uses subbu gunk)

and honestly mienfoo will always u-turn so you can't really say it can 'counter' it

 

[danilo]

Koffing is C-Rank
i used to use koffing a lot but it has no offensive presence and it kind of just sits there for the entire match. Koffing is like Bronzor with a more specific niche, Will-O-Wisp, and much much worse defensive typing. Reminder, Bronzor sucks

 

[Oiawesome]

First lemme just thank you; cause despite how often i disagree with you at the very least you get discussion on mons going - which is something this thread needs.

Abra. You need to remember that in pokemon, there will be only 1 instance in a game where a 1 on 1 match up will exist, and thats after 5 mons on each team are removed. needless to say this will rarely happen. At the risk of sounding like a jerk (which is the exact opposite of what im going for), try and take a look at Koffing out of the vacuum of a one on one fight and you'll see why it really shouldnt be concidered S teir.

Koffing has a noticible niche in being a very good sand check, being immune to their stabs, and having the physical bulk to take their other attacks, while clear smogging away their boosts. Koffing also has (barely) reliable recovery in painsplit which immediately puts it LEAGUES AHEAD of Bronzor in this roll. however, Koffing, much like many other defensive poison types is cursed by its typing and mediocre special defenses. It also doesnt have the same 'offensive' presence as other walls, notably Lileep. All in all koffing isnt *bad* by any means it's just no where near as good or as versitile as the S teir mons are. Koffing has one good niche as a sand check where I'd be willing to say it actually out performs many other mons, however thats really *all* it can do with out being outclassed by other walls such as Frillish and Lileep, or even bulky offensive mons like Missy. At most I'd conciser it a B teir, though I'm feeling more of a C on this one.

Also, again without being an asshole, if you could just put spaces between sentences, it will make your posts much more aesthetically pleasing and easier to read.

Well actualy its a sand counter and it does way more than that. Im not trying to be a asshole but I strongly disagree about C, B/A is what it deserves, seriously ill post some logs later of koffing battles . If you havent used koffing(and since I know your policy I doubt you havent) you should probaly try it, its not only very good but It would make your judgements more accurate in the long run if you havent used it. Your welcome for the thank you and thanks for commenting on my nomination.

cancleling nomination, I am making horrible posts in this thread , sorry.

 

[Delver]

Honestly i even think B is too high for it; Snover or Choice scarf porygon act as much more reliable checks to sand startegies and are much easier to support and also provide your team with offensive momentum, things that Koffing (and bronzor) could only *hope* to do."

Koffing has a hard time with 3 of the 4 main fighters in the teir; being Mienfoo, timburr, Scraggy, and Riolu (leaving croagunk out because it's just not as common, though as chie said it can barely handle that). Scraggy has shed skin and acess to Zen Headbutt. While ZHB is rare (11.191%), shed skin is on 37.504% of scraggies - and that number should be EVEN HIGHER once people realize how superfluous Moxie is on Scraggy (Disclaimer: I suppose this counts as theorymonning, but when i rank these mon I'm trying to keep it in a "competative enviroment" and to me, moxie should never be ran on scraggy unless you scarfed it to be a hipster. You may disagree with this, hence the disclaimer). Timburr can just boost in koffing's face as he gets a guts boost from will-o-wisp and you can barely hurt him in return, mienfoo can knock off eviolite and uturn to a counter, leaving only poor riolu to be walled by it. As a type, poisons only real selling point is a fighting weakness. If you cant handle 4/5 of the fighters in the teir, whats the fucking point of resisting it. Seriously, its ability to resist fighting STABs is just lost on it. Like, sure I can fight scraggy using it and I even get to see those awesome "It's not very effective..." pop up when i switch in to a drain punch, and hey i might even be able to smog away its boosts; while i sit here and hope to god it doesnt have ZHB. Or, alternatively i can use a bulky mienfoo spread, get an answer to a much broader range of threats, knock off support, and even RELIABLE recovery in the form of regenerator and (to a lesser extent) drainpunch. Sure i still have to watch out for HJK, but i guess that's not really a loss in comparison is it?

Koffing has its niche, and it does it about as well as you could hope it to. It's its inability to fight back or otherwises deal with the things it walls that truly hold it back. As mentioned, as a sand counter its just outclassed by things like snover and Pory which provide a powerful momentum shift for your team. Koffing just gets in the way of your opponent's sweep. Forces him to work around it, hopefully buying you enough time to weaken or deal with all his threats before it dies.

Long story short, Koffing loses to the same things that bulky-offensive mons like mienfoo lose to, only like bronzor has limited ways to turn the tide of the battle in your favor. It, in the most literal sense, is a wall. It sits there and gets in the way of your opponent, occasionally gratifying you for using it with removed boosts or a clutch burn.

To sum up a very long, ranty and possibly rambling post - Koffing doesnt deserve S or A because it lacks the flexibility that S and A rank mons have, and, much in the same vein as why i think Scraggy belongs in A, doesn't do it's job anywhere near well enough to justify a higher ranking than B. Personally i find it as a C mon: "Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the LC metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. "

I will advocate however that I'd rather have koffing than Bronzor ona team and i really think Bronzor should be C as well. Would also like to see some discussion on Nozzle's post; if anyone is willing to do that.

 

[The 1 and Only Lady Gaga]

I know i said i'd abstain from ekans discussion, but i have this weird bump in my chest so i figured i should do it anyways

Awesomely subtle jokes aside, my biggest complaint with ekans for B is that it has way too much competition from Croagunk. Croagunk who can basically do everything ekans can do, but with the addition of having a fighting stab to do it with. They can both set up for sweeps, ekans via coil and croagunk via bulk up; they both act as effective fighting type checks, with croagunk having the added bonus of a water immunity which provides recovery - however unreliable. ekans on the other hand has to take intimidate's damage reduction - which is by no means bad; but personally I'd take the water immunity. they're both weak to psychic attacks, but the only really common thing (bar bronzor which is terrible) to use psychic attacks is Abra - who will OHKO either unless my calcs are off.

I will refrain from saying "it should be C" because I abstained for a reason - i had no experience with ekans in the past and honestly i dont really intend to for the future. However, I'd like you to convince me that Ekans has enough of a disernable niche from croagunk, or that he can do what croagunk does just as well or better that he deserves the B teir. "walling fighting types" really isnt enough. Croagunk does that, deals with pesky water types, acts as an amazing revenge killer or bulk-up sweeper etc.

Ah, but Ekans is not merely an attacker, it can also cripple up to half a team if played correctly with the moveset of Glare + Switcheroo + Swagger; whereas for Croagunk it's pretty clear that it's going on the offensive and it will need a Bulk Up or Nasty Plot boost before it can start dealing damage. Ekans too can have a pseudo-immunity to status if it chooses to utilize Shed Skin, so random Thunder Waves and Will-o-Wisps are not as crippling. Your argument about Water types are valid, and I concede that Ekans does not have as many switch-in opportunities as Croagunk. However, Ekans fares better against the far more prominent Fighting types like Mienfoo, Scraggy, Timburr, opposing Croagunk etc. due to Intimidate and can cripple whatever switches in with Glare or start boosting more comfortably, whereas Croagunk has to tread more carefully. IMO, Ekans is not really meant to be played like Croagunk although it can choose to do so for versatility; it's more like Koffing: Counter/Check Fighting types, then cripple whatever switches in with the appropriate move.

 

[Woodchuck]

Ekans is quite a bit more prone to getting worn down than Croagunk, however. Croagunk has opportunities to heal itself with Dry Skin and Drain Punch and arguably has more utility for its team as a Knock Off user.

I just don't see Ekans doing much that Croagunk can't, especially when it can't check Scraggy, one of Croagunk's best niches. Other than the few that Ekans can wall, the rest of the Fighting-types either U-turn out to gradually wear Ekans down (Mienfoo) or don't give a damn about status (Timburr).

 

[michael]

Well, given the current meta, Croagunk is a fairly sketchy check to Scraggy at best, given that Zen Headbutt is used by (and I hesitate here) the good players on Dragon Dance sets, and that OHKOes Croagunk. As such, I wouldn't say not checking Scraggy as well is a huge deal.

Timburr in particular does not care about Ekans outside of a very odd Coil RestTalk set or whatever, as it gets a boost from status (Toxic, Glare) which overcomes the Intimidate drop and can wear it down with repeated boosted Drain Punches or Paybacks. Koffing, on the other hand, can use Clear Smog to prevent boosting with Bulk Up and wear it down slowly.

 

[Woodchuck]

stats for scraggy:
| Moves |
| Crunch 97.090% |
| Drain Punch 88.119% |
| Dragon Dance 83.528% |
| Ice Punch 51.335% |
| Hi Jump Kick 30.813% |
| Zen Headbutt 11.191% |

Obviously, usage stats are in no way correlated with "good" players, but I know of many "good" players who forgo Zen Headbutt for Drain Punch + Crunch + Hi Jump Kick due to Hi Jump Kick's sheer power against even slightly weakened defensive threats. I know this is the route I take because Croagunk is honestly not that hard to deal with by other means, but I do agree with your point that Croagunk will have to be wary of Zen Headbutt if it tries to check Scraggy. And by wary, I mean it will die. :/

 

[Chieliee]

Honestly i even think B is too high for it; Snover or Choice scarf porygon act as much more reliable checks to sand startegies and are much easier to support and also provide your team with offensive momentum, things that Koffing (and bronzor) could only *hope* to do."

Koffing has a hard time with 3 of the 4 main fighters in the teir; being Mienfoo, timburr, Scraggy, and Riolu (leaving croagunk out because it's just not as common, though as chie said it can barely handle that). Scraggy has shed skin and acess to Zen Headbutt. While ZHB is rare (11.191%), shed skin is on 37.504% of scraggies - and that number should be EVEN HIGHER once people realize how superfluous Moxie is on Scraggy (Disclaimer: I suppose this counts as theorymonning, but when i rank these mon I'm trying to keep it in a "competative enviroment" and to me, moxie should never be ran on scraggy unless you scarfed it to be a hipster. You may disagree with this, hence the disclaimer). Timburr can just boost in koffing's face as he gets a guts boost from will-o-wisp and you can barely hurt him in return, mienfoo can knock off eviolite and uturn to a counter, leaving only poor riolu to be walled by it. As a type, poisons only real selling point is a fighting weakness. If you cant handle 4/5 of the fighters in the teir, whats the fucking point of resisting it. Seriously, its ability to resist fighting STABs is just lost on it. Like, sure I can fight scraggy using it and I even get to see those awesome "It's not very effective..." pop up when i switch in to a drain punch, and hey i might even be able to smog away its boosts; while i sit here and hope to god it doesnt have ZHB. Or, alternatively i can use a bulky mienfoo spread, get an answer to a much broader range of threats, knock off support, and even RELIABLE recovery in the form of regenerator and (to a lesser extent) drainpunch. Sure i still have to watch out for HJK, but i guess that's not really a loss in comparison is it?

Koffing has its niche, and it does it about as well as you could hope it to. It's its inability to fight back or otherwises deal with the things it walls that truly hold it back. As mentioned, as a sand counter its just outclassed by things like snover and Pory which provide a powerful momentum shift for your team. Koffing just gets in the way of your opponent's sweep. Forces him to work around it, hopefully buying you enough time to weaken or deal with all his threats before it dies.

Long story short, Koffing loses to the same things that bulky-offensive mons like mienfoo lose to, only like bronzor has limited ways to turn the tide of the battle in your favor. It, in the most literal sense, is a wall. It sits there and gets in the way of your opponent, occasionally gratifying you for using it with removed boosts or a clutch burn.

Honestly, you're going too far with downvoting koffing. You're saying it can't wall timburr; I think you forgot about clear smog. It's not as good as oiawesome claims it to be, but it's not as bad as you say either. I'd nominate it for (low) B rank.

 

[Rowan]

In my opinion, Koffing is the most under-rated mon in the entire little cup. For me, it's niche is being to wall both Fighting Types and Drilbur. There's not a lot of things that can do that well. It has just the right moveset with Clear Smog to beat Timburr and quite a lot of Scraggy's. Will-o-wisp just makes loads of physical attackers useless like Mienfoo and Drilbur. Pain Split isn't great but it's better recovery than Bronzor gets. As oiawesome pointed out, it can wall all the other random physical attackers like Pawniard. I know they're much more rare but it's a useful niche.

It's not A or S, but I don't think it's C either. B seems like a solid position for Koffing.
(Also, Koffing+WishLickitung is a great defensive pair, go use it.)