Little Cup Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'BW LC' started by macle, Oct 18, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. JacobNinja

    JacobNinja

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2012
    Messages:
    174
    Hippo is A teir. If you don't put Hippo in A, then drillbur and sandshrew also must stay below A. While your at it, since snovers gets a ton of use only to counter it, lets move snover to B too.
  2. prem

    prem failed abortion
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,624
    hippo is not A tier. hippo is support for drillbur and sandshrew. no one fears hippo because it literally does nothing but takes 3 hits and use sr. its only purpose in life is to get sand up so drilbur can sweep. drillbur and sandshrew are S/A tier because they actually threaten pokemon. they are something people care about when teambuilding and actually difficult to deal with.

    also im not sure what you are talking about at all. snover is legitmately a good mon, and its usage isnt completely based on how strong sand is. perfect accuacy stab blizzard, semi reliable recovery with giga drain, se stab priority against murkrow, overall decent stats all make snover a good mon that is incredibly difficult especially when you consider there are no really good ice resists with recovery besides the few fire types in the tier that are completely manhandled by sr and hail cause their recovery is morning sun.
  3. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck <kryptonite intensifies>
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 25, 2010
    Messages:
    2,036
    Guys, let's look at this thread. It is the viability rankings. It's not the "is this Pokemon good in a 1v1 metagame" thread. It's not the "is this Pokemon the best sweeper or wall or tank or whatever" thread.

    This is about viability. And ultimately, sand teams (i.e. teams with Hippopotas) are EXTREMELY viable. I would even go so far as to say as they are some of the most viable teams in the tier. Whatever aspects of a sand team you consider to be important, one thing is certain: as long as sand teams are good, Hippopotas will always be central to them and always have a big impact on the metagame. A Tier seems like the clear choice; to put Hippopotas in a viability rank lower than A would suggest that sand teams were significantly less viable than, say, hail teams.

    I sincerely doubt we want to be sending that message.
  4. Chieliee

    Chieliee

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1,795
  5. Corkscrew

    Corkscrew ium is cute
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2009
    Messages:
    1,159
    Hippopotas allows the 2 most threatening sweepers in the tier to sweep. This makes it the best support mon in the metagame.
  6. Chieliee

    Chieliee

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1,795
    You're implying Hippopotas needs support to work

    it's exactly the opposite, Hippopotas PROVIDES support.

    i also want to state that koffing should definitely not be b-rank. I've tested it, and lost to sandstorm all my matches. THe thing is, if you want koffing to reliably counter Drilbur, you have to hide it the entire battle, which, imo, makes it almost 5-6 from the start. it's just... not good, idk. In theory it's amazing but in practice it sucks
  7. Artemisa

    Artemisa

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2012
    Messages:
    144
    Well the support it provides is only sand stream and SR, mainly in Sand Teams, but it is never used outside of sand teams. In a balanced team hippo is outclassed by other pokemon that can do it's job better. It's only viable in Sand since it makes the sandstorm, but outside of sand it's just a B rank pokemon.
    Also @Jacob unlike Hippo, Drilbur is one of the fastest Stealth Rock setters and Rapid spinners out side of sand and can use it's second ability mold breaker which negates levitate so E-quake hits and 2HKO's Missy, Bronzor, Koffing(Not Sure about this one), etc on the switch. Mold Breaker negates sturdy from Dwebble can threaten to 1HKO it with rock slide I think not sure about this one.
  8. Delver

    Delver I got the runs like Jagger

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    197
    I just wanna distinguish my argument from this in the slightest sense. I never have no ever will say that he's *ONLY* useful because he sets just up sand for sand teams. He's also a VERY good physical wall and sets up stealth rocks and can even phase out some powerful threats like +1 scraggy, etc.

    My major argument is that at times, running hippo for a physical wall could be subpar if your team *doesnt* gain support from it (ie, you're not running a sand abuser etc). It's because of how huge the sand threat is that unless you're using it yourself, you wouldnt want to allow one of your possible opponents to be able to abuse it; throw in the fact that there are stronger walls with similiar physical and superior special bulk and you just have so many other arguably better choices for a much broader range of teams that i just have a hard time saying that Hippo doesnt absolutely require team support.


    Becasue chieliee pointed it out, and its something that I myself have been doing I figured I should explain what I'm saying when it "needs Support." A mon "needs" support when it doesnt function properly without X. For example, Larvesta can't do its job without a spinner to remove Rocks. To me, the difference between A and B teir is really whether a mon *wants* support (rocks turning 2hko's into OHKO's etc); or needs it (requiring at least one other mont to be able to abuse the weather effect you bring in so that you're not setting yourself up). To me hippo falls in that second category. I think its a very good, even metadefining mon, but I would never run a hippo unless I'm running a sand team - and that just limits the *viable* teams that it can fit into making it (in my eyes) less viable as a wall.

    I feel like I'm explaining my point poorly; but it makes sesne to me. Honestly, A or B is a sliver of a difference in my eyes. Regardless of where it ends up I will still never use it unless im making a sand team because there is never a reason to.

    Edit @Mexican:
    I didnt mean to single you out, I just wanted to clarify what I said in my first post cause I know I did a medicore job at that.
  9. Artemisa

    Artemisa

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2012
    Messages:
    144
    I chose my words poorly there. I meant if it wasn't for sand stream it will just be a B rank mon, I know it can set up SR, recover, and phaze out, but it's still outclassed by other pokemon in the meta.
  10. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck <kryptonite intensifies>
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 25, 2010
    Messages:
    2,036
    But thanks to Sand Stream it is an A rank mon.
    I find it strange to attempt to categorize Pokemon based on what rank they "deserve" if they didn't have a part of themselves. Hippopotas is the Sand Stream setter. That, frankly, should make it A tier nearly automatically.
  11. Swamp-Rocket

    Swamp-Rocket screw economics!
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,287
    I just wanted to point out Spearow does not learn Drill Run as was posted earlier... it only learns as a Fearow, so it probably needs to be E-tier.

    EDIT: I completely forgot about the move tutor. Disregard this
  12. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2012
    Messages:
    306
    Move tutor?
  13. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte Angel of mercy, how did you find me?
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,607
    Hippo has a lot of other things going for it other than Sand that make it A tier AT LEAST, it's quite bulky with Evio and can hit quite hard as well. It is in no way a 'weak', 'unthreatening' pokemon. Unless you have SE coverage, you're NOT taking the thing down in one hit, and when coupled with Slack Off it's a pain in the ass to take down. It can set SR, phaze BU/DD fighters, and smack things with EQ / Toxic. It's a reliable physical wall that is perfectly capable of taking down glass cannons and such pokemon with less defense. Plus, it has Sand. What the heck is it still doing in B tier, someone fix this please

    Another thing I'm questioning is the placement of Bronzor. Although I'm not very firm with this idea, I do think it has the traits of an A tier pokemon. For one thing, its typing and ability are perfect for it to fuck up sand teams- and it's an excellent physical wall. It beats Sand defensive cores all by itself (Hippo and Lileep basically) it can support its team through a variety of ways- it's got SR, as well as Dual Screens. It can Toxic stall many offensive and defensive pokemon, and with a predicted EQ it can nail Magnemite/opposing steels/poison types that are immune to Toxic. It's extremely bulky with an Eviolite, and can take a multitude of common hits on both ends of the spectrum. It's a very common supporter on Sand/Hail teams alike for its ability to counter both forms quite reliably- though because Hawkstar hail occasionally carries Missy it might not be as good in that regard as it used to. Still, it should be considered, in my opinion.
  14. iss

    iss happily ever after
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2009
    Messages:
    2,091
    A major problem that Bronzor has in this metagame is its lack of recovery. It actually does a really shitty job of beating Murkrow, as Toxic is ineffective due to Substitute and Murkrow can just switch out immediately if it doesn't have a Substitute. Staryu can force it out easily, taking ~30% from Psychic and being practically immune to Toxic and Hypnosis via Natural Cure. While Bronzor can force out dangerous Pokemon such as Snover earlygame, it gets worn down very quickly by hail, Stealth Rock, and resisted moves such as Brave Bird and Blizzard. As a Stealth Rock setter, being weak to the two most common balance spinners in the metagame, Staryu and Mold Breaker Drilbur, makes its SR practically useless. Being complete set-up bait for Scraggy and Shell Smashers isn't really awesome either. While it certainly does wall very well, its flaws are severe enough that I feel it should remain B-C rank.
  15. Delver

    Delver I got the runs like Jagger

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    197
    This - i have nothing to add on the topic of bronzor besides that I feel it should be C. With regard to hippo, the general consensus seems to be Hippo at A.

    as a segway I'd like us to finally reach a conclusion on Ekans. It's been brought up multiple times by Lady Gaga, and each time discussion has been diverted to something else. As of now the only argument for it is B and i lack the experience with it to really say "no its not." Lady's latest post on the subject can be found here.

    I'd also like to see some discussion on Elekid, as, quite honestly, the teir lacks any Viable electic types, and elekid is not only the Highest BST of the Top speed teir, he has the mixed attacking stats to back it up. He naturally outspeeds murkrow and can act as a powerful check to it without sub up and can OHKO with powerful STAB electric attacks. I dont think its anything to write home about, but i think it can defninitely find itself a home in at least the C teir.
  16. iss

    iss happily ever after
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2009
    Messages:
    2,091
    Ekans is really meh- Poison is a pretty terrible type in LC, and the "Mienfoo counter" niche is better occupied by Grimer, who is immune to Knock Off via Sticky Hold and can actually heal through Pain Split. Furthermore, a single Coil boost simply doesn't give it enough power to break through Pokemon of average bulk such as Staryu, and good luck ever getting two Coil boosts. Glare + Swagger is pretty shit for luck reasons and Murkrow does it better- even Purrloin can do that better. It simply doesn't do anything well enough- I'd rather use Koffing or Grimer if I really needed a Poison-type on a team, which most teams don't need. I'd say it's D rank due to how badly it works in practice.

    Elekid is alright- it certainly can deal a lot of damage, but it runs into a ridiculous number of problems in practice. Firstly, it isn't anything close to a reliable Murkrow check, as LO Murkrow OHKOes it with Sucker Punch and Eviolite Murkrow does upwards of 85%. Even with the introduction of Wild Charge, Elekid still can't break through Pokemon such as Mienfoo, which is a huge problem when it is OHKOed by a light breeze. Chinchou hard counters it regardless of moveset, and Porygon can paralyze it and proceed to Recover until Cross Chop misses. There's really not a good reason to use Elekid on a competitive team, although it does pretty much stomp the ladder due to teams getting hit by super effective moves. I'd say it's a solid C rank Pokemon.
  17. Petrock

    Petrock

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2013
    Messages:
    1
    Dwebble for A-Rank!

    Dwebble is great in LC, so I say A-Rank. It's weak to fighting, but that's it's only flaw.
  18. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte Angel of mercy, how did you find me?
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,607
    I haven't used Dwebble much, but from what I got when using it, i wouldn't say that it's really A-tier status.

    For one, Sand Teams kind of run over it. +2 XScissor only 2HKO's Tank Hippo iirc, while EQ is always a 2HKO, making setting up against Full HP Hippo's impossible (and, if it doesn't kill you, it can force you out.) Hazard sets have trouble beating Sand too since all Sand teams come built in with Spinners- Drilly or Sandshrew.

    Dwebble is also defeated by most Fighting types- all but Scraggy, who can only function as a check. Dwebble's EQ is all it has to hit Mienfoo, Timburr, and Machop- all of whom have the bulk to tank at least 2 EQ's even if Dwebble is at +2. In return, all of them can also 2HKO with Drain Punch- making setting up on them nigh impossible as well.

    Finally, Dwebble is defeated by Missy and many other ghost types. WoW completely and utterly shuts down any and all Dwebble, as it breaks sturdy and weakens its attacks to lol nothing. Missy's Shadow Ball deals a lot of damage to SSmash Dwebble; even in Sand it 2HKO's. (not counting Oran Berry) Frillish as well can wall it; Surf OHKO's in Sand, and it can recover off any damage too.

    Despite this, Dwebble does have a lot of positive traits too. It's great at setting hazards, since Sturdy guarantees at least SR and its bulk often lets you put down Spikes as well. Dwebble also has great synergy with common ghost types such as Missy and Frillish, which makes it great for balanced teams. Still, it has some notable flaws that make it unfit for A tier.
  19. macle

    macle &Vinc2612: to all lc players: is EQ gligar common?
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    3,194
    Sorry for not attending this thread for awhile. Hippo will be an a mon mostly because of woodchuck's post. -

    "This is about viability. And ultimately, sand teams (i.e. teams with Hippopotas) are EXTREMELY viable. I would even go so far as to say as they are some of the most viable teams in the tier. Whatever aspects of a sand team you consider to be important, one thing is certain: as long as sand teams are good, Hippopotas will always be central to them and always have a big impact on the metagame. A Tier seems like the clear choice; to put Hippopotas in a viability rank lower than A would suggest that sand teams were significantly less viable than, say, hail teams."

    i agree with others that hippo is not a great mon itself, but it is certainly one of the most viable mons in the metagame.
  20. Katzali

    Katzali

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Messages:
    7
    Meowth isn't mentioned? I'd like to nominate it for A-rank, because it's an incredibly effective lead, and can even fill a special attacking role well with nasty plot, a great movepool and technician. Overall a great Pokemon. Or at least a high B, but I still vote A.
  21. iss

    iss happily ever after
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2009
    Messages:
    2,091
    While great in DPP LC, Meowth is honestly really bad- you can just switch to Mienfoo on every Fake Out and spam U-turn for free momentum. Misdreavus can live a Bite and OHKO it with HP Fighting or just cripple it with Will-O-Wisp. As a revenge killer, it doesn't do well against Tirtouga or Scraggy, as the former takes practically no damage while the latter can just Drain Punch away the minimal damage taken. Meowth is a solid C Rank Pokemon, but nothing more than that.
  22. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest i'm bored
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,257
    Yeah. Meowth is honestly pretty terrible and struggles against some of the more threatening Pokemon in the LC metagame, who can all take advantage of its presence. This includes, but not limited to Mienfoo, Scraggy, Missy, and Hippo. I'd see it as a C.

    That said, I think Aipom should be moved to E. Honestly, I think it's just that bad. Its Fake Out isn't worth a damn shit; besides providing free switch-ins, is pretty weak. Its 70 Attack is pretty pathetic, and it doesn't even have Technician! Its Return and Shadow Claw are both weak, and overall Aipom is just weak. It also falls to Mienfoo and Scraggy. Same with Missy. Really, Aipom can't do any damn shit, and it's for the most part a mediocre hit-and-run attacker, a terribad speedy Pokemon, and just a shitty Pokemon overall. Doesn't really have any positive traits. It's frail and is liable to die in one hit. Honestly, Meowth, who is bad, is much better than Aipom. So yeah, overall, Aipom is horrible it deserves at least E-Rank.
  23. Hawkstar

    Hawkstar Unplug me from this fantasy
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a SPL Winner

    Joined:
    May 23, 2010
    Messages:
    709
    Just noticed Cottonee doesn't have a rank yet.

    I propose Cottonee for rank B. As a support mon, it really shines, what with it's ability to priority paralyze almost everything in the metagame, especially Drilbur and Sandshrew. This alone would make it good, since there is no other Pokemon in the LC metagame that can claim this advantage thanks to Drilbur's Thunder Wave immunity. Unlike other support Pokemon, there is not a single set-up sweeper in existence that can set up on Cottonee thanks to priority Encore. It also gets Taunt to deal with the only remaining thing that can set up on it, which is Ferroseed and other Spikes setters. Outside of those moves, it has Leech Seed, Substitute, Rain Dance, Sunny Day, and maybe even GrassWhistle (it sucks, but it's the only priority sleep move in the game!) Outside of this role, though, it has nothing. It's attacking stats are jokes, and it's movepool isn't stellar either. It can't damage anything without hazards, Toxic, or Leech Seed. Giga Drain is usually used as a STAB move, but I don't see the point. Everything that resists Leech Seed (Ferroseed, Lileep, other Cottonee) resists Giga Drain so it's not like it makes Cottonee any less of set-up bait for those Pokemon.

    Solid B, in my opinion. It makes a great alternative to Snover as a sand check, and it even fills the same resistances as Snover with a lot more bulk.
  24. iss

    iss happily ever after
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2009
    Messages:
    2,091
    E Rank is reserved for the worst of the worst. Aipom isn't quite that bad- it has nice coverage options and is fast enough to do some damage. C Rank should be fine for it.

    I agree with Cottonee for B Rank.
  25. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Little Cup Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    3,411
    I support B Cottonee. I would rather see a D rank Aipom.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)