np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 10 - Hazard

[MMII]

I didn't bash his post, if I came off as that aggressive I apologize as it was unintended. I also never mentioned Mental Herb, I spoke purely about standard Deoxys-D with Red Card. Are you sure you quoted the right person, cause I have zero mention of Mental Herb in my post. All I tried doing was presenting counter arguments to his arguments. (The closest thing to a "that's the wrong set" argument in my post is my reference to Red Card.)

 

[Shurtugal]

Pocket,

I think what they are trying to say is that you essentially never know which DeoD set you face, and any check would be a 50/50 coin toss. For instance, take TauntGengar. Using Shadow Ball over Taunt might avoid the Mental Herb / Magic Coat prediction, but the Red Card variant will swap you out into something like Splash Plat Politoed, where DeoD will now go on to set up SR + 1Spikes. If you use Taunt predicting the lack of Mental Herb, you might get screwed over with Mental Herb / Magic Coat. You can't scout it either without it setting up hazards so "technically" it will always get up both SR and 1Spikes. Its simply good at getting hazards up.

And Terrakion is good at lategame sweeping and Keldeo is good at revenge killing. I think the main focus should be whether or not SR + 1Spikes is actually broken. A lot of Pokemon are good at doing their respective jobs (or else they wouldn't be used), and so I'm really finding the fact that DeoD can consistently get up these hazards not really the discussion we should be debating because you techncially cannot predict what set it carries so you always start out on a 50/50 playing field no matter what check you bring to SR + 1Spikes.

While SR + 1Spikes certainly make sweepers threatening, I found little to no change in the enviorment when playing on Suspect. I feel that SR + 1Spikes looks a lot more intimidating on paper than in actual practice, and what people fail to realize is that even though you might stand on a 50/50 scenerio due to sheer unpredictability is that the coin toss might be in your favor so DeoD isn't gurantee to always get these hazards, just most of the time. Also, at least for offense, these hazards don't make too much of a difference if you can manage to get a midgame sweep up either. I also find that there are much more intimidating things in the current metagame: rain boosted hydro pumps, chlorophyl sweepers, sun-boosted v-create, etc. These weather based tactics are much more intimidating than the suspect we are currently testing. In the current enviorment, I feel that DeoD is more than managable. I feel that if rain or sun leave, then DeoD will probably get a re-suspect anyway so because there are both more intimidating stradegies in the metagame alongside the 50/50 chance you won't set up the hazards you need alongside the fact that offensive games are played fast enough to where the variable of hazards isn't quite as powerful as the weather forces currently dominating that I feel that DeoD's should not be considered for ban as of yet: no ban.

 

[MMII]

Some more calcs

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario ExtremeSpeed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 242-285 (74.69 - 87.96%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 277-328 (85.49 - 101.23%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 277-328 (85.49 - 101.23%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

(Think RP Terrak)

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 250-294 (77.16 - 90.74%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spike

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 274-324 (84.56 - 100%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 274-324 (84.56 - 100%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

252+ SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Celebi: 146-174 (36.13 - 43.06%) -- 77.73% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes and weather

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 309-367 (87.78 - 104.26%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 261-308 (80.55 - 95.06%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 198-234 (75.57 - 89.31%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 283-335 (70.04 - 82.92%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Venusaur: 190-226 (69.85 - 83.08%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

(I cut the HP by 10% to give chance of OHKO after one round of LO damage)

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 242-286 (74.69 - 88.27%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

Again, this is only of a portion of the calcs that show that SR + Spikes helps a lot in cleaning offensive teams just as it helps in wall breaking Stall teams.

 

[Shurtugal]

But sun helps Venusaur clean (most) DeoD teams with LO and a growth boost. Bulk lives most priority, etc., as well as stall.
Rain helps certain Pokemon become viable (see Tornadus-I and Gastrodon). DeoD can't brag that. Rain also boosts Hydro Pumps so that those usually water STABS now allow rain teams to break through stall and offensive teams alike.

Like I said, Rain and Sun are more threatening that DeoD is even with those calks because rain and sun more or less can brag the same if not more. Therefore I stand by to my opinion that we should wait before banning DeoD because as of now it is quite manageable compared to other threats in the metagame. I feel this is kind of like trying to ban sand before rain and sun:

"Sand boosts SDef, can set up SR, and can run choice items to break through many teams."

"Rain boosts STABs, makes Pokemon viable, and is harder to beat in general."

"Lets ban sand first since its the current suspect and although its not as broken as rain we should certainly ban sand since it has broken capabilities and its the one the OU mods chose as suspect!"

That's kind've how I feel this entire suspect as been, not pointing at you MM so much as just this suspect in general. I am not saying sand is anywhere near broken to the point where DeoD might be (suspect wise), but I feel the concepts are the same. DeoD merits great strength for offensive sweeper for sure, but not anymore than sun and rain are currently, and they are just better in comparison to DeoD. I feel that DeoD will deserve a re-suspect if the weathers hit ban; if the community doesn't decide they are broken then I feel that it would be impossible to find DeoD broken. (Comparable scenario: Lets say we ban sand and not rain or sun. You can see where I am a bit concerned).

EDIT:

I might Abstain, but I feel as though that currently in the metagame that DeoD isn't broken BECAUSE of weather teams therefore I don't think it should be banned, but your logic makes sense so in a way I'm stuck in-between the middle here because I believe in both reasons: weather making DeoD manageable and weather's presence making it so we shouldn't be suspecting DeoD. I'll consider Abstaining but not making any promises.

 

[Bent1ey]

I think that the argument is that DeoD should be banned disregarding weather, so your reasoning goes against the principle of this voting, if you're against the principle the only reasonable way to express it is to abstain. And by the same token encourage others to abstain if they agree with your reasoning.

Because if you don't agree with the rules of the suspect, voting yes or no is essentially sabotaging the results just because you don't agree with either, and thus affecting the outcome for the others. Smogon needs to have a culture of abstention a bit more developped for this concept to work, but given that the voters make for a small community it could be worked on.

Pocket EDIT: WRONG, people will be voting on Deoxys-D based on its performance in the CURRENT metagame (ie a metagame with Weather present). You MAY NOT vote on Deoxys-D based on your imaginary metagame without weather.

 

[Deluks917]

I will be voting ban. Deo-D puts too much pressure on defensive teams for a pokemon that is good in every mu. He reliably prevents early hazards (making many threats very hard to handle) and produces too much tempo. God help you if you try to use a spinner that can be pursuit traped.

 

[Curtains]

And I can turn your argument around by saying that if you lack the correct method to deal with Deoxys-D (ie having a taunt lead and running into Mental Herb) then its getting up 2-3 layers or something. You are also discounting the fact that even if all else fails, Deoxys-D prolly got up SR in the face of your counter, and then the HO team proceeds to get going. If there was like, a foolproof way of knowing what fucking set / item its running, I wouldn't mind Deoxys-D so much, but what frustrates me to no end is losing to skill swap sets, missing out on a 2KO co its running leftovers for some reason, running into Rocky Helmet etc etc. I havn't really encountered a pokemon that does this "coinflip" thing quite like Deoxys-D, and it really hampers my teambuilding process when I feel like I need to overload on checks for it to account for the different items it runs (and then have to guess what check to lead with). Such a headache :(

You and others are totally over thinking deoxys-d and giving it way too much credit. It really doesn't matter what the opponent of a deoxys-d does because it is up to the deoxys-d owner to have the right set or get punished. Even if you get the hazards up then you may have to deal with a spinner. The pressure is on you to have the best 1 set out of the 50 given here to handle my team. For example people have said that the mental herb set is the "standard" set. This set gets rocked by tyranitar and other pokemon that hit hard while you can do nothing back. Deoxys-d is not uber at all. if you have to prepare that much for a deoxys-d then i can safely assume you haven't ever played against a single stall team in your life. You think deoxys is a headache? How about having 2 or 3 pokemon that can set up hazards.... Also these pokemon can actually hurt you and have good resistances, defenses and recovery. Also they don't need a myraid of items to make it a guessing game. You know what deoxys will do every time... It will usually be a lead and have SR or spikes. My job is to kill it immediately. If he gets SR + spikes up then fine i can bring out my spinner or just celebrate being up 6-5 for nothing. All i have to do is not taunt your deoxys and I win. Im not bringing in a spinner nor taunting you. I can set up on you all day. if you red card you can possibly (and most likely) switch me into another pokemon that can finish the job. Not a uber pokemon.

 

[elodin]

ok

I managed to get the peak and I'll be voting for OU Deo-D. I don't really want to get into a discussion about why I think it's not ban worthy, so I'll just summarize some thoughts:

Yes, Deoxys-D can defeat every spinner one-on-one with the correct move, but this doesn't really matter. I've never faced any Deo-D other then SR / Spikes / Taunt / Magic Coat, Thunder Wave, or Night Shade, and while moves such as Hidden Power Fire, Thunder(bolt), and Psycho Boost do sound good on paper, they're extremely circumstantial and most people won't use it. Saying I can't send in my spinner until I find out which set Deoxys-D is running is a lie. It's like saying I can't send in my Xatu on a Breloom because I'm afraid of Stone Edge. This argument just doesn't convince me. Yes, a well played Deoxys-D is really deadly. It blows my mind how some players manage to control the game with it. But the main problem is that this can be said about almost everything in OU. A well played Keldeo is deadly. A well played Terrakion is deadly. Even a well played Vaporeon can be deadly. This argument is valid for everything in the tier, and although some Deo-D players are for sure a pain to face, the same can be said about lots of other stuff. No, Deoxys-D does not centralize the current metagame. And no, it's not powerful enough to be banned. Sure it has some tricks under its sleeves, but it's just not ban worthy. Deo-D teams are manageable, and although you might be surprised by a Hidden Power Fire or Thunder or Psycho Boost sometime, this is not enough to ban it.

With these thoughts in mind, I will be voting for Deo-D OU. I'd also like to say sorry to everyone I cursed on the ladder when I lost to bs, I was really mad back then :_:

 

[Iconic]

even if you have already posted them in this thread, if you have qualified to vote please post your screenshots in the following thread:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3479431
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3479431
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3479431
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3479431

 

[Shining_Latios]

Finally got reqs. Kind of lame my dev went up after beating someone with a 2700 Glicko2, but whatever.

Hide

As for the topic of Deo-D, I have not been convinced that it is indeed broken. Sure, it can get hazards up, but what else can it do? Yeah, not much. It can be a dick and taunt, but I'm not sure that's enough reason to ban it. Also, with all the Scizor running around, have fun trying to setup hazards. Deoxys-D is also setup fodder. One example is Agility Thundurus-T. It sets up Agility, while Deoxys-D can't do much back, and no one wants to face a +2 Speed Thundurus-T.

EDIT: Just saw Iconic post :x

 

[Stratos]

Honestly, with or without Deoxys-D, i did not notice much of a difference in the meta. Anything that really doesn't cause many ripples (which Deo-D did not nearly as much as people say he did) cannot possibly be broken in my eyes. That's all.

 

[MMII]

Usage is irrelevant, see Gen 4 Wobb, Tornadus-T, ect. (and don't forget these same guys still use Ape in BW2)

 

[Kidogo]

You and others are totally over thinking deoxys-d and giving it way too much credit. It really doesn't matter what the opponent of a deoxys-d does because it is up to the deoxys-d owner to have the right set or get punished. Even if you get the hazards up then you may have to deal with a spinner. The pressure is on you to have the best 1 set out of the 50 given here to handle my team. For example people have said that the mental herb set is the "standard" set. This set gets rocked by tyranitar and other pokemon that hit hard while you can do nothing back. Deoxys-d is not uber at all. if you have to prepare that much for a deoxys-d then i can safely assume you haven't ever played against a single stall team in your life. You think deoxys is a headache? How about having 2 or 3 pokemon that can set up hazards.... Also these pokemon can actually hurt you and have good resistances, defenses and recovery. Also they don't need a myraid of items to make it a guessing game. You know what deoxys will do every time... It will usually be a lead and have SR or spikes. My job is to kill it immediately. If he gets SR + spikes up then fine i can bring out my spinner or just celebrate being up 6-5 for nothing. All i have to do is not taunt your deoxys and I win. Im not bringing in a spinner nor taunting you. I can set up on you all day. if you red card you can possibly (and most likely) switch me into another pokemon that can finish the job. Not a uber pokemon.

OK the thing that doesn't seem to be getting through is that deo-d's versatility does not mean nothing can beat him, or that there is no reliable way to check him. It's that there are literally 0 mons that can prevent him from getting up SR, and very few that can prevent him from getting up 2 layers. This would already be the case due to his great speed and defenses, but his ability to run moves and items to counter certain threats makes it all the harder. And it also makes him customizable--run red card if set-uppers are bad for your team, hp fire if you have no spinblocker and don't like forry, etc. No he cannot run all these at the same time, but he won't need to given what the rest of the team is. And you are way underestimating how hard it is to spin vs a HO team--that's what the whole momentum idea is.

Also, how much banning a mon changes the meta isn't hugely relevant imo--deo-d has never had huge usage, which probably impacts this a lot, as it's mostly been a thing among high-level players. (ninja'd by MM)

Finally, a mon that can guarantee SR + spikes is broken imo, for reasons listed above. And when it doesn't get those up, it gets SR and puts the momentum hugely in your favor. This is game-changing and easily worthy of a ban imo.

 

[Tressed]

You and others are totally over thinking deoxys-d and giving it way too much credit. It really doesn't matter what the opponent of a deoxys-d does because it is up to the deoxys-d owner to have the right set or get punished. Even if you get the hazards up then you may have to deal with a spinner. The pressure is on you to have the best 1 set out of the 50 given here to handle my team. For example people have said that the mental herb set is the "standard" set. This set gets rocked by tyranitar and other pokemon that hit hard while you can do nothing back. Deoxys-d is not uber at all. if you have to prepare that much for a deoxys-d then i can safely assume you haven't ever played against a single stall team in your life. You think deoxys is a headache? How about having 2 or 3 pokemon that can set up hazards.... Also these pokemon can actually hurt you and have good resistances, defenses and recovery. Also they don't need a myraid of items to make it a guessing game. You know what deoxys will do every time... It will usually be a lead and have SR or spikes. My job is to kill it immediately. If he gets SR + spikes up then fine i can bring out my spinner or just celebrate being up 6-5 for nothing. All i have to do is not taunt your deoxys and I win. Im not bringing in a spinner nor taunting you. I can set up on you all day. if you red card you can possibly (and most likely) switch me into another pokemon that can finish the job. Not a uber pokemon.

I have a feeling you've missed a few posts that have debunked your points. You argue that its up to the Deo-D user to have the right set or get rolled. Its true, but its also true that the other player is in the exact same position. The difference is that with Deo-D, you must counter it on the first turn or else it will set up all over you. Making a mistake and attacking the Red Card variant will fuck you over, Taunting the Mental Herb variant, trying to spin with Forry against the random HP Fire variant, whatever. If you guess wrong, they immediately grab the advantage, which in this case is one or two layers of hazards. If they lose, they can switch out, bring in a counter, sack it to what you bring in, and do it again. Yes, stuff like Tyranitar can hit Deo hard, but Deo will still get up hazards. In theory, yeah, you can just send out your spinner and get rid of them. But when the other team is based around taking advantage of free turns to the point where sacking a Pokemon is a very viable way to play, using a 20 power Normal type attack is really, really bad.
Regarding other Spikers/Rockers, let me give you an analogy. Lets say that we compare them to walls, not like Blissey, but concrete, steel, brick, whatever walls. Something like Ferrothorn is very solid, but it has holes that can be taken advantage of, a weakness in the foundation that can be taken advantage of when trying to knock it down, in Ferro's case, its weaknesses to Fire and Fighting, its slow speed, and its weakness to Taunt. If we apply the same analogy to, say, Froslass, it can be taken advantage of by prominent weaknesses and a lack of bulk. With Deoxys D, we end up with a wall that is incredibly sturdy, but it doesn't have many real holes in it, and then ones it does have are easily sealed up. Its bulky, its fast, its typing doesn't give it plenty of weaknesses, and these weaknesses can be easily set up on by teammates. It is totally solid from basically every angle.

Also, I'm putting a list of pokes that Deo-D can set up at least SR and a layer of Spikes on without issues. These are all calced with the standard sets. These WILL all be beaten reliably if the Deo-D player plays with at least an understanding of what these Pokemon do. I ignored any potential KOs and Jirachi, who as we all know can just TWave and flinch hax Deo-D fairly reliably XD. I know I'm ignoring lower tier Pokes as well, but then I'd be here all night.

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Alakazam
Blissey
Celebi
Cloyster
Donphan
Dragonite
Dugtrio
Ferrothorn
Gastrodon
Gyarados
Hippowdon
Jellicent
Latias
Lucario
Magnezone
Mamoswine
Metagross (still OU, still gotta be written down)
Politoed
Reuniclus
Rotom-W
Skarmory
Toxicroak
Vaporeon
Venusaur (assuming this is leading off, otherwise Venu would win with the Chloro boost)

24/52 OU Pokes will basically always allow Deo-D to set up. If you switch out, too, Deoxys-D will still be able to set up two layers unless you switch out to a faster Poke who 0HKOs (basically Bug Gem Scolipede or CB Durant). Feel free to add/substract if you see something missing/wrong, but if I'm correct here, Deo-D can successfully set up on nearly half of OU. Now you see why I'm pro-ban.

 

[Tassa]

It's false there is 0 mon who can. Skill Swap Espeon can 100% of time. Yes, it's a shitty gimmick, I totally agree, and it should never be used.
Carrying that is really overpreparing, but in theory you can do it.

After, I agree that this Espeon can be easily trapped and that the effectiveness of Deo-D for setting hazards early while preventing most anti-hazards methods is gamebreaking.
I think that ever if something like perma-rain appears more detrimential to the metagame, Deo-D is bad for it, and therefore should be banned.

 

[Stratos]

Usage is irrelevant, see Gen 4 Wobb, Tornadus-T, ect. (and don't forget these same guys still use Ape in BW2)

Usage is hardly what I was addressing: when a threat is big enough, the meta shifts to adapt around it, whether or not it's often used. I completely agree. But I haven't seen evidence of this happening with Deoxys-D—with or without him, I see the same threats, the same playstyles, etc. When Torn-T got banned, the meta shifted, but not so on this suspect ladder. It may be a complete bitch to have to pack a spinner or deal with almost-guaranteed SR, but anything that can't impact the meta in some way isn't broken in my opinion.

E @ 2 above: Zam can run encore or Taunt (why don't more?) and Rotom-W can trick. It doesn't WANT to set up on latias or dnite because they're almost unbustable after a couple boosts. Donphan may not win, but it can at least keep hazards away because it spins. Ferrothorn and Skarm can setup alongside. Basically, it's not as simple as you're making it sound. Setting up SR is not always the best move turn 1.

Actually that's what I've been noticing a lot—the argument that Deoxys-D can set up SR makes it broken no matter what, without real regard for whether setting up SR is actually worthy of being called broken itself. trying to prove a premise that everyone agrees on (that Deo-D can always set up SR) without addressing the underlying implication (anything that can always set up SR is broken)

 

[Curtains]

OK the thing that doesn't seem to be getting through is that deo-d's versatility does not mean nothing can beat him, or that there is no reliable way to check him. It's that there are literally 0 mons that can prevent him from getting up SR, and very few that can prevent him from getting up 2 layers. This would already be the case due to his great speed and defenses, but his ability to run moves and items to counter certain threats makes it all the harder. And it also makes him customizable--run red card if set-uppers are bad for your team, hp fire if you have no spinblocker and don't like forry, etc. No he cannot run all these at the same time, but he won't need to given what the rest of the team is. And you are way underestimating how hard it is to spin vs a HO team--that's what the whole momentum idea is.

Also, how much banning a mon changes the meta isn't hugely relevant imo--deo-d has never had huge usage, which probably impacts this a lot, as it's mostly been a thing among high-level players. (ninja'd by MM)

Finally, a mon that can guarantee SR + spikes is broken imo, for reasons listed above. And when it doesn't get those up, it gets SR and puts the momentum hugely in your favor. This is game-changing and easily worthy of a ban imo.

What is stopping a focus sashed terrakion to get SR up? Nothing. So what makes deo- d different? Im sorry if im not jerking around for 5 moves while a pokemon sets up hazards. Like I said deo-d is extremely predictable and its items really don't help it unless I get red carded into something that cant do anything to it. The attacking moves that people are suggesting are specific to 1 or 2 pokemon that I wouldnt be leaving in in the first place. Mental herb is basically only for terrakion and other deo-d. Red card is tricky because it could backfire when I switch in a pokemon that can set up or KO you. Also deo-d can be just set up by a lot of stuff. Momentum is out the window when your HO team is staring into a + 3/4 dragonite with lum berry with multiscale activated. Or an agility thund-t whom you cant do didly squat to. When i see deo-d i get excited because I know I can squeeze an easy quick lead or dominating position. Also note that if you run no HP ev's then its bulk goes out the window so all the efforts of trying to lure spinners will backfire. Luring doesn't work on good players. Also the success of this pokemon is reliant on the pathetic defenses of a gengar. That means without psycho boost (easily scoutable) tentacruel is a hard counter to this pokemon. It can spin and do heavy damage in the rain.

Oh what about volcarona? What does it do against that? Volcarona is probably the hardest of the hard of counters to deo-d as it can set up in its face and probably 2hko with unboosted bug buzz. Also volcarona isnt a bad pokemon... As most teams these days get whacked by it. (see rmt forum rates)

 

[Kidogo]

What is stopping a focus sashed terrakion to get SR up? Nothing. So what makes deo- d different? Im sorry if im not jerking around for 5 moves while a pokemon sets up hazards. Like I said deo-d is extremely predictable and its items really don't help it unless I get red carded into something that cant do anything to it. The attacking moves that people are suggesting are specific to 1 or 2 pokemon that I wouldnt be leaving in in the first place. Mental herb is basically only for terrakion and other deo-d. Red card is tricky because it could backfire when I switch in a pokemon that can set up or KO you. Also deo-d can be just set up by a lot of stuff. Momentum is out the window when your HO team is staring into a + 3/4 dragonite with lum berry with multiscale activated. Or an agility thund-t whom you cant do didly squat to. When i see deo-d i get excited because I know I can squeeze an easy quick lead or dominating position. Also note that if you run no HP ev's then its bulk goes out the window so all the efforts of trying to lure spinners will backfire. Luring doesn't work on good players. Also the success of this pokemon is reliant on the pathetic defenses of a gengar. That means without psycho boost (easily scoutable) tentacruel is a hard counter to this pokemon. It can spin and do heavy damage in the rain.

Oh what about volcarona? What does it do against that? Volcarona is probably the hardest of the hard of counters to deo-d as it can set up in its face and probably 2hko with unboosted bug buzz. Also volcarona isnt a bad pokemon... As most teams these days get whacked by it. (see rmt forum rates)

But the thing is, there are a ton of ways to stop fsash lead terra from getting SR--anything faster with taunt, scarfloom bullet seed (rare but not non-existent), anything with magic bounce or magic coat, something like defensive starmie that can just spin as it sets up the rocks since terra always has SR / CC / SE / taunt or SD--it doesn't have the moveslot (or the movepool) to run thunderbolt, nor the item slot to run mental herb. And that's what makes deo-d broken--there is literally no way to guarantee you'll prevent it from getting rocks (outside of skill swap espeon i guess, but...lol). Sure, terra gets up rocks a lot of the time, and that's why it is a good OU threat...but well-played deo-d ALWAYS gets up rocks and gets up more than that a lot of the time, and that's why it's broken imo.

On your other points; if you go red card, you can usually taunt first turn, get up SR while living a +1 hit and red card activating, and then get a second layer while you die to the next mon. This is a great exchange and is part of the reason why set-uppers are not a great answer to deo-d. Another factor is twave--with the exception of thundy-t, deo can just twave first turn to neuter any set-up threat. This also pairs well with taunt--if the opposing mon likes to use substitute, just taunt it first and then twave. Meanwhile, if you run something like mamoswine alongside deoxys, you'll never get swept by thundurus--it has to have agility + LO or NP to beat deo reasonably, both of which mamo can easily revenge (and sub loses due to thick fat halving hp ice). Volc is neutered by twave, taunt prevents it from going overboard with QD if you really want (and max speed timid deo is faster than 95% of volcs), so imo deo twaves first turn while volc uses QD, SR while they bug buzz and fail to kill, spike while they kill. Then send out terra or w/e and fish for paralyzes so you can sweep thanks to your layers of hazards. So volc isn't much of a hard counter at all--i guess if they just BB off the bat and you predict it, you get two layers while even if you twave, they have just over a 50% chance of not getting paralyzed both turns, so you get 1.5 layers on average while crippling a mon. Not to bad of a tradeoff imo.

Also, tenta doesn;t really beat gengar even in rain. Gengar can run subsplit, subdisable, and dbond, all of which beat tenta (and remember, gengar doesn't need to survive the encounter, just to take tenta down with it). And even if tenta manages to beat gengar (burn, critical hit, w/e), i then bring in my DDnite. Are you going to leave tentacruel in for me to EQ? Or are you going to switch out and let me get a free DD, meaning also that the next time tenta comes in it will be 25% weaker? This is what momentum in HO is all about--sure, you can try to preserve tenta to spin later, but it might just cost you the match. And even if you do try to spin right there, you might have just lost a mon for nothing.

 

[ginganinja]

Also deo-d can be just set up by a lot of stuff. Momentum is out the window when your HO team is staring into a + 3/4 dragonite with lum berry with multiscale activated.

If the Deoxys-D player lets Dragonite get up to +4 then it deserves to lose lol. Especially when most run Taunt and shit to prevent set up?

What is stopping a focus sashed terrakion to get SR up? Nothing. So what makes deo- d different?

Spikes?

Actually that's what I've been noticing a lot—the argument that Deoxys-D can set up SR makes it broken no matter what, without real regard for whether setting up SR is actually worthy of being called broken itself. trying to prove a premise that everyone agrees on (that Deo-D can always set up SR) without addressing the underlying implication (anything that can always set up SR is broken)

I don't think everyone is arguing that instant SR is broken, mostly because Azelf and Terrakion can do something similar and I don't really think their lead sets are broken. What Deoxys-D can do tho, is get up SR almost all of the time, as well as often getting up Spikes as well as having a massive amount of tools to prevent set up opportunities. Terrakion and Azelf both lack spikes, and an early game SR + Spikes on the field is very, very strong. Sure, you might be able to spin later, but ill prolly have a spinblocker (which forces the mindgame of attack or spin) and you are stuck in the position of having to get that spinner in safely against a HO team, AND get the spin off, while not giving said HO team a free boost while your spinning. All the while you can be sure that said HO Team will be actively attempting to delay that spin for as long as possible letting the hazards do their work. SR on is own is not really broken, but when Deoxys-D gets up SR worst case senario, and very often Spikes on top of that, its a cause for concern.

 

[Lavos]

Oh what about volcarona? What does it do against that? Volcarona is probably the hardest of the hard of counters to deo-d as it can set up in its face and probably 2hko with unboosted bug buzz. Also volcarona isnt a bad pokemon... As most teams these days get whacked by it. (see rmt forum rates)

first of all, volcarona saw 6.55% usage last month, meaning it's not especially common. obvious reasons for this include rain's recent dominance of the metagame, the fact that volc is 4x rocks weak, and also that scarf keldeo is everywhere and a hydro pump still ohkos volc at +1 sdef. other reasons include dragonite, salamence, kyurem-b, tyranitar, and terrakion. speaking of terrakion, one of the most common pokemon on hyper offense, what makes you think the deo-d user, upon seeing volcarona in team preview, isn't just going to lead his terrakion instead? then the volc user, who previously thought he was getting a sweet deal with what appeared to be a free quiver dance or attack on turn 1, is now forced to switch or face an 80% chance of being down 5-6 at the start of turn 2. the safe move is switching, meaning now the terrakion user can double switch into his deo-d and start laying hazards on whatever terrakion check the opponent decided to bring out. not a "hard counter" by any means.

 

[Curtains]

@Kidogo


What do you mean anything faster with taunt? Terra is one of the fastest pokemon in the tier. Unless you mean taunt alakazam? or taunt gengar? Come on man. Then you bring up another random move like t-wave..... Ok, lum berry, Next. We can go all day and make deo seem like this super pokemon but in practice all these random thunder waves and LO thunderbolts to beat starmie are gonna hurt the deo-d user in the long run. And about volc.... You cant use taunt and t-wave at the same time. Also what if I have lum berry. We can do this all day going back and forth about random deo-d moves. Theorymoning random moves out of his movepool is pointless and just annoying. lets say I do get paralyzed.... Ok now you only get up SR and I am up 6-5 with a full health volc. Tentacruel with ice beam and scald beat gengar. Sub disable is one of the most popular sets. Again theorymoning you bringing a dragonite on my tentacruel is useless because honestly i would go for the ice beam or switch to my defensive wall. This has nothing to do with deo-d.

@ginganinja

So according to this page the set is SR/spikes/twave/taunt? what about the spinners? What about psycho boost to beat donphan? Or hp fire to beat scizor? What about tyranitar? Cherry picking moves to prove a point isn't really fair for the arguement. Also I run terra as a lead so spikes really dont apply here. Also if I have a dragonite and you think it is DD what if I am choice banded? Then you only get up SR.

@Lavos Spawn

Usage stats dont matter remember? I am sure that t wave deo-d or other random deo-d sets are barely used at all but people want to cherry pick moves to explain why a pokemon is uber. Makes no sense. Also rain is dominant? I think i recently seen a stat that rain is only second to HO or non weather. So that is false. Also SR is not a factor when all deo-d on HO teams start at the lead position. Also isnt it a victory for me if deo-d isnt setting up hazards? Again theorymoning predictions is unfair to the arguement because I have the brains to predict as well. What if I switch to a dugtrio? See how easy that is? Volc is a hard counter... And HP ground focus sash can also be a possible volc set. Other pokemon can be versatile like deo-d as well.

The pressure is always on the deo-d player. You may get a KO or twave sometimes but against any competent player deo-d will be done in 2-3 moves.

 

[Pocket]

@ yee and Melee Mewtwo:

Guessing game is part of Pokemon. Educated guesses are called predictions. You really can't just ascribe all the "guessing games" and "50/50s" to Deoxys-D (or sleep, in the case of yee); it happens elsewhere in this game. Banning based on this reasoning is absurd.

This is where meta knowledge and risk management comes to play. If you're in a situation where you're facing Deo-D offense, you will form a game plan to best pressure DeoD. Deo can be Red Card or Mental Herb w/e, but it's up to the player to gauge which case would be the worse scenario (and which case would be more probable) and to prevent that or to choose the safest move.

My extensive play experience with Deoxys-D led me to a conclusion that Deoxys-D needs to work for its layers (unless the opponent lacks any semblance of offensive pressure / rapid spinner / magic bouncer / did not even attempt to deal with Deo-D offense) - it's not easy layers as many pro-ban users are making it out to be. Lot of scenarios have been painted in this thread where DeoD is at it's prime, but in reality DeoD is hardly ever gonna pull off 2+ layers without outplaying the opponent or without significant cost in the process.

Like I mentioned in my previous post, Deoxys-D does not ensure layers as readily as Deoxys-S by virtue of its mediocre Speed (for a suicide spiker), and its set must compromise if it wants to overcome its usual checks and counters.

The suspect ladder further made me realize that Deoxys-D did not have much of an impact to this metagame. The absence of Deoxys-D in the ladder did not influence the metagame for the better or for worse, and that's telling as to how little Deoxys-D restricted our metagame. I found the suspect ladder un-revealing in terms of the current suspect in question, but it was certainly helpful in debunking the myth that Weatherless teams without Deoxys-D is shit.

 

[Bent1ey]

Pocket EDIT: WRONG, people will be voting on Deoxys-D based on its performance in the CURRENT metagame (ie a metagame with Weather present). You MAY NOT vote on Deoxys-D based on your imaginary metagame without weather.

I know this, but I missed a "not" in my post. For shame truly. I appreciate the correction.

The core of my argument remains the same, if you need to express your discomfort to the method you shouldn't participate on it, to abstain is a reasonable solution.

 

[Kidogo]

@Kidogo


What do you mean anything faster with taunt? Terra is one of the fastest pokemon in the tier. Unless you mean taunt alakazam? or taunt gengar? Come on man. Then you bring up another random move like t-wave..... Ok, lum berry, Next. We can go all day and make deo seem like this super pokemon but in practice all these random thunder waves and LO thunderbolts to beat starmie are gonna hurt the deo-d user in the long run. And about volc.... You cant use taunt and t-wave at the same time. Also what if I have lum berry. We can do this all day going back and forth about random deo-d moves. Theorymoning random moves out of his movepool is pointless and just annoying. lets say I do get paralyzed.... Ok now you only get up SR and I am up 6-5 with a full health volc. Tentacruel with ice beam and scald beat gengar. Sub disable is one of the most popular sets. Again theorymoning you bringing a dragonite on my tentacruel is useless because honestly i would go for the ice beam or switch to my defensive wall. This has nothing to do with deo-d.

Things "faster" than terra with taunt--azelf, aerodactyl, basic fast suicide leads, prankster users (this last was mostly my point since sableye etc. have been brought up a lot in regards to checking deo). Not super important.

Twave is not random lol...I have been saying from the start that twave is super viable on deo (you can find my post like 10 pages back if you want lol), and the set I'm considering "standard"/most effective is SR / Spikes / Taunt / Twave @ mental herb. If I start theorymonning considering deo has a different set without justifying it, call me out on it fsure.

So lum berry then? OK, so you send out lum DDnite, which i twave first turn while you...DD right? I then live your +1 outrage since you have no boosting item, use twave again, and set up rocks next turn while you kill me. Of course, this is assuming I don't simply go for the taunt since dnite is guaranteed to be slower (which gets me two layers since im still faster, 3 if i live two outrages which is around a 10% chance. Given this, taunting vs dnite is probably the better option since a lot do carry lum). In either case, your lum DDnite has done a good job limiting me to just SR (possibly), while in exchange I have paralyzed your sweeper which is now locked into an outrage that is about to expire and cause confusion--the perfect set-up opportunity for whatever sweeper i choose to bring in.

No tentacruel run scald + ibeam--rapid spin is a given, and 2 out of toxic/protect/substitute/tspikes are almost always on the set. Even so, if gengar disables scald ice beam has only a slight chance to 4hko, meaning gengar can flat-out beat tentacruel.

I'm not sure if you misunderstood my point about dnite or w/e. I was citing an example of what makes it so much harder to spin vs a well-constructed HO team than you seem to think it is. Dnite is arbitrary--the point is, even if you somehow get past gengar with your tenta alive, whatever sweeper I bring is is going to threaten tentacruel (probably with a KO), meaning that if you try to spin you risk being KOed. Meanwhile, it is most likely also a set-upper, so if you switch out to try and get a spin off later I may instead set up and sweep your team due to the hazards you were unable to spin. Dnite was simply an example since it can easily sweep teams and can KO a slightly damaged tentacruel. So this point is not about deo-d, but about the nature of HO...which is kinda intimately linked to deo-d atm.

Also in regards to your response to lavos...the point is that usage=/=brokenness, not that usage isn't valuable to consider lol. That's like saying that the fact that no one uses skill swap espeon because it's a horrible gimmick set shouldn't mean it gets eliminated as a huge factor contributing to deo's non-brokenness. If something is not used, you can't site it as a common means of countering something, because it isn't common lol. Nothing to do with the usage=/=brokenness idea.

 

[MMII]

The set I'm am going to be assuming in this post is standard spread with SR + Spikes + Magic Coat + Taunt @ Red Card. I'm going to cut the post up and put them into hide tags to help organize my own thoughts.

Also, I'm going to make the assumption that you read all of my previous posts in this thread. If not, you can find them here, here, here, here, and here. You might need to scroll down on some of them as I addressed some counter arguments.

Guessing Deoxys's set

@ yee and Melee Mewtwo:

Guessing game is part of Pokemon. Educated guesses are called predictions. You really can't just ascribe all the "guessing games" and "50/50s" to Deoxys-D (or sleep, in the case of yee); it happens elsewhere in this game. Banning based on this reasoning is absurd.

This is where meta knowledge and risk management comes to play. If you're in a situation where you're facing Deo-D offense, you will form a game plan to best pressure DeoD. Deo can be Red Card or Mental Herb w/e, but it's up to the player to gauge which case would be the worse scenario (and which case would be more probable) and to prevent that or to choose the safest move.

I'm assuming this is directed at yee as this wasn't part of any of my arguments. (which were mainly to say that many of the methods you listed for beating Deo-D aren't that reliable) I don't really have much to say on this as "guessing games" (not sure if I'm quoting anybody, just dubbing the argument that) isn't my favorite reason for banning Deoxys-D although I can definitely understand how having to guess turn one (after packing more than one way to beat the more than one way to run Deo-D) over something as important as the hazards game isn't very appealing.

Deoxys-D's ineffectiveness

My extensive play experience with Deoxys-D led me to a conclusion that Deoxys-D needs to work for its layers (unless the opponent lacks any semblance of offensive pressure / rapid spinner / magic bouncer / did not even attempt to deal with Deo-D offense) - it's not easy layers as many pro-ban users are making it out to be. Lot of scenarios have been painted in this thread where DeoD is at it's prime, but in reality DeoD is hardly ever gonna pull off 2+ layers without outplaying the opponent or without significant cost in the process.

Like I mentioned in my previous post, Deoxys-D does not ensure layers as readily as Deoxys-S by virtue of its mediocre Speed (for a suicide spiker), and its set must compromise if it wants to overcome its usual checks and counters.[/QUOTE]

As in my previous post (the one linked last) these methods aren't really a reliable way to deal with Deoxys-D. Offensive pressure, namely Pokemon that can always (outside of move acc) outspeed/underspeed and 2HKO/OHKO (as listed in the first link) or those that can setup a sweep on him, aren't reliable ways to beat Deoxys-D. The first group only force Deoxys-D into rolling the Red Card dice (which 30/53 OU mons are unable to prevent a second layer if dragged out by Red Card, see first link) which tend to be in favor of Deoxys. The second group can not actually set up a sweep on them outside of Volcarona and, to some extent, LO 2D Thundy (see 4th link). Meaning that all they accomplish is giving 2 layers to Deoxys-D (and most likely a third thanks to Red Card). Even in the case of the two exceptions, Dragonite can tank a +3 LO HP Rock from Volcarona and OHKO back with an Outrage

+3 252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Hidden Power Rock vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 253-299 (78.32 - 92.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+3 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Hidden Power Rock vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 279-329 (86.37 - 101.85%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 313-369 (100.64 - 118.64%) -- guaranteed OHKO

while 2D LO Thundy is only AC mention and is going to have a hard time getting past Tyranitar, Ice Shard, Kyurem, Sashzam, etc. with only two move coverage. (I woudn't complain to much about going 4 to 5 with a strong hazards advantage and momentum ripe for the taking. You'll probably be in a even better position in the case of 2D LO Thundurus-T.)

Rapid Spin users straight up lose to Deoxys-D if they are faster (so Starmie). Forretress can be PP stalled out of Rapid Spin thanks to pressure while Tentacruel is the only one who can reliably "beat" Deoxys-D (the set I mentioned above) by limiting it to SR. However, Tentacruel won't actually solve this issue for very long as Rapid Spin (if you Scald, Red Card gives Deo 2 layers) will have done almost no damage meaning Deoxys-D still has the possibility to come back later in the near future to finish the job. Attempting to Rapid Spin any time past early game is nearly impossible as a good HO team (not the random ones seen on the ladder) aren't going to be throwing you free turns that allow you to spin without risks, assuming you even get the chance to take a risk. (if they do, hazards were the least of your worries)

Deoxys can't do anything about Magic Bounce without relying on a teammate (Pursuit Trap/Gothitelle) to remove them. Too bad Espeon and Xatu are such crummy mons themselves that there isn't much reason to use them on your team unless you really need their amazing(ly poor distributed) ability.

To sum it up, Deoxys-D isn't full proof but it is quite reliable (may not be at the same level as Deo-S but that doesn't mean it isn't good enough to deserve a ban) mostly relying on favorable odds in the worst case scenarios. (ignoring Magic Bounce)

Metagame impact

The suspect ladder further made me realize that Deoxys-D did not have much of an impact to this metagame. The absence of Deoxys-D in the ladder did not influence the metagame for the better or for worse, and that's telling as to how little Deoxys-D restricted our metagame. I found the suspect ladder un-revealing in terms of the current suspect in question, but it was certainly helpful in debunking the myth that Weatherless teams without Deoxys-D is shit.

Honestly, I don't think ladder states are very reliable ways to determine the effect a Pokemon has on the metagame especially in the case of a support mon. Most novice players (the majority) on the standard ladder aren't going to realize that they lost the game because Deoxys-D set up 2 layers in those first turns and instead will blame the mighty Terrakion or Dragonite and will add a check/counter to deal with them. I know one player added a SD Lucario to their own team after getting swept by my own multiple times. What I don't think he/she realized was that my Lucario was so dangerous because my Custap Forretress could reliably setup SR + Spikes early game. (which allowed my Lucario to easily sweep his/her team) Deoxys-D, in general, has almost always only been valued by higher level players in the tournament scene.