I assume you meant Roselia instead of Roserade, since Roserade is UUi didn't see many Vileplume/Roserade this days
If you're not using a oriented Offensive Wartortle (w/ eviolite + max SpA and Surf + Ice Beam), Foresight is mandatory on Wartortle since lacks to recovery and no leftovers so have an hard time to switch on the battle with hazards up again, is limited. Also, you're doing effort to deal with hazards since i guess than your team is very weak when you're running Wartortle, if you're playing vs offensive: spinblokers + offense pressure deals pretty well with Wartortle while that if you're playing against something defensive Wartortle will be totally deadweight if your opp is using something like Misdreavus or Frillish.Personally i use Seismic Toss/Rapid Spin/Toxic/Haze on Wartortle for a whole utility mon.
Rapid Spin is obvious, it removes hazards. Seismic Toss does good damage and prevents most pokémon to setup a Substitute, Toxic is a great status move on wartortle since the switch in are often Grass-Type and Ghost-Type and he can toxic them unless they are part poison (i didn't see many Vileplume/Roserade this days and Haunter can be "scared" by Scald) and Haze is the panic button when you let an opponent's sweeper starting setup and to stop BP team hard.
On standard Wartortle the only 100% mandatory are Scald - Rapid Spin - Foresight.Wartortle really has no room for 'filler', much less his more important moves that stop it from being complete setup bait.
Wartortle up to Low B from C
Torkoal up to Mid B from Low B
Pineco added to D
Mandibuzz really doesn't make things nicer for Floatzel, he struggles enough competing with Samurott. As a Physical Water-type. I really just don't see a reason to run Floatzel anymore, I never have but its even worse nowadays. What keeps it B-rank?Floatzel down from Low B to C.
Ghost-type? Check. Lampent can beat Zard, sometimes sorta check Jynx, is just generally a good offensive Pokemon. TBH I think its better than Simisear. Fun Dual STABs and whatnot. D-rank seems awfully low.Lampent up to C from D.
Why would I use Stantler ever?Stantler down to E from D
The "new pokemon" gimmick has been worn off. THere are at least 5 normal-types that are just so much better, potentially move if I thought about it. Stoutland just sucks.Stoutland down to E from D.
If I had a serperior, scolipede, tauros and a focus sash in tact kadabra, I would not feel threatened by floatzel unless I had low hp for an aqua jet, which samurott, carracosta and basculin can also use. I am a huge fan of floatzel, but I just don't see much reason to use it at all. Yes, Floatzel can use bulk up and baton pass and taunt if you really want to, but there is only 1 move left for coverage ( I know taunt isn't that common, and frankly, not that good of a move on floatzel, but with 2 attacking moves, you have to forgo either a coverage move or aqua jet for proiority). Also, I do not see the big deal in passing bulk ups, when I can pass swords dances with fast enough and bulkier pokes in scolipede and leafeon. Samurott can swords dance and carracosta can shell smash, which are both way more useful than bulk ups to get off sweeps themselves, which I guess floatzel could do with a b.u + 3attacks set, but its more convenient to get +2 attack as opposed to +1. Shell smash> bulk up also gives you respectable speed for carracosta, which is its weakness. Botu samurott, with its very good base SpA, and +2 boost from carracosta, can run a special coverage move (ice beam, hp grass) to defeat certain foes, while floatzel's average 85 base SpA is just average without a little investment. With that investment, you are degrading its speed and attack, which are the 2 biggest selling points, and with SpA investment, you would have to run a negative nature on its already low defenses (lower defense, and you take more from priority. Special defense, take alot more from scald and other weak special attacking moves than expected). If you want to use a special floatzel,High speed that enables Floatzel to outpace stuff like Serperior, Scolipede, Tauros and Kadabra that Simipour cannot while still packing enough power to threaten them is really good. Then there's the immunity to burns, so Floatzel can nab free switch-ins on Will-o-Wisp, Scald and Lava Plume even with its terrible bulk. Floatzel is also the only pokemon in the tier that can Baton Pass Bulk Ups and even knows Taunt to pull it off easier. Floatzel is not even all that stunted by Mandibuzz's presence: mixed sets can 2HKO Buzz with LO Ice Beam or CB Ice Punch depending on Buzz's spread, whereas CB sets can even Switcheroo to screw her up (not even boosting Foul Play). I believe Floatzel still has a shot for low B due to its surprising versatility.
or,252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 151-179 (35.69 - 42.31%) -- 28.13% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
you might as well use simipour, which has better (but not that much better) special attack, while having a boosting move (nasty plot) and more convenient abilites (gluttony salac berry or torrent). And floatzel cannot be burned, which is nice, but burn isnt that common besides a resisted scald ( you probably cannot do much to the poke back if it uses scald, as they are usually a water type), and to pokes that you extremely threaten (misdreavus, torkoal) and would most likely switch out (it is a nice ability though).If you're daring enough to run Modest or Rash on Floatzel you get:
252+ SpA Life Orb Floatzel Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Mandibuzz: 182-216 (43.02 - 51.06%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Ice Beam vs. 60 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 211-250 (68.95 - 81.69%) -- guaranteed 2HKOAs some of the previously mentioned pokes serperior, scolipede, tauros and kadabra all outspeed basculin that do not outspeed floatzel, they are not really afraid of floatzel at high hp's
Sash Kadabra aside (nothing bar Cincinno can really revenge kill it), Floatzel does actually have the movepool and stats to hurt things. Scolipede is outright OHKOed by LO Hydro Pump (which most do not see coming at all assuming they'll survive the Waterfall), while Hydro Pump/Low Kick and Ice Beam/Punch do good damage to Tauros and Serperior, both of which threaten a good majority of the other Water-types in the tier which gives Floatzel a plus. I do not know why you listed a weak 40 base power STAB move when Floatzel has the capability to hit them hard. If anything, Floatzel would net surprise KOes due to people underestimating it.If I had a serperior, scolipede, tauros and a focus sash in tact kadabra, I would not feel threatened by floatzel unless I had low hp for an aqua jet, which samurott, carracosta and basculin can also use.
Let me just say that Taunt is pretty crucial for BU Floatzel to be effective. Bulky Waters (Alomo, Wartortle) that wall offensive Floatzel suddenly have the tables turned on them as they can do nothing to stop Floatzel from boosting and sweeping/passing: Alomo can't heal, Wartortle can't Haze, neither can Toxic. Taunt can also stop stuff like Roar or status, and having Taunt on a Baton Passer is a pretty good thing, even if it happens to be very frail (Bulk Up can fix that to an extent).I am a huge fan of floatzel, but I just don't see much reason to use it at all. Yes, Floatzel can use bulk up and baton pass and taunt if you really want to, but there is only 1 move left for coverage ( I know taunt isn't that common, and frankly, not that good of a move on floatzel, but with 2 attacking moves, you have to forgo either a coverage move or aqua jet for proiority).
I know it's not the most awesome thing in the world, Baton Passing Bulk Ups, but it is still something only it can do and it does it decently enough. While the likes of Pede and Leafeon do indeed possess more bulk, this bulk does not carry over to the sweeper they are passing to, which still gives Floatzel an advantage over SD Passing. Note that because of this, BU Floatzel is passer first, sweeper second, because if it isn't Baton Passing those Bulk Ups it faces competition from other boosting Water-types, which I'll get into.Also, I do not see the big deal in passing bulk ups, when I can pass swords dances with fast enough and bulkier pokes in scolipede and leafeon. Samurott can swords dance and carracosta can shell smash, which are both way more useful than bulk ups to get off sweeps themselves, which I guess floatzel could do with a b.u + 3attacks set, but its more convenient to get +2 attack as opposed to +1.
First off, Shell Smash and Bulk Up work differently: Shell Smash provides a great speed and power boost but loses bulk, Bulk Up raises both Attack and Defense at a slower pace. Carracosta gets frailer each time it sets up, while Floatzel gets bulkier each time it sets up, so there is still enough difference to differentiate the two without writing Floatzel off as outclassed, not to mention Floatzel still outspeeds +2 Carra. Also, Floatzel's Hydro Pump hits as hard as Combusken's Fire Blast/Focus Blast, which hits offensive and even some defensive teams adequately enough.Shell smash> bulk up also gives you respectable speed for carracosta, which is its weakness. Both samurott, with its very good base SpA, and +2 boost from carracosta, can run a special coverage move (ice beam, hp grass) to defeat certain foes, while floatzel's average 85 base SpA is just average without a little investment.
I agree that Floatzel must sacrifice bulk for a mixed set, but I don't get how its speed will be affected by SAtk investment. Floatzel's speed is its biggest selling point, not so much its Attack so that doesn't take precedence, while maximizing speed is a must.With that investment, you are degrading its speed and attack, which are the 2 biggest selling points, and with SpA investment, you would have to run a negative nature on its already low defenses (lower defense, and you take more from priority. Special defense, take a lot more from scald and other weak special attacking moves than expected).
I will agree that Simipour gives Floatzel the greatest competition in performing a mixed set (I say mixed because not only is Simipour indeed superior at pure special sets, it can also match much of Floatzel's movepool for a mixed set). However, the increase in power is not as impactful as the greater speed (notably outspeeding Scolipede, Serperior and +2 Carracosta), so Floatzel can still hold its niche.If you want to use a special floatzel, you might as well use simipour, which has better (but not that much better) special attack, while having a boosting move (nasty plot) and more convenient abilites (gluttony salac berry or torrent).
Yeah the ability could've been better, but right now a pokemon as frail as Floatzel would appreciate any free switch-in it can get, meaning it can hop into battle just a tad bit easier than other Water-types. Scald users can be Taunted and set up on, Switcheroo'd or simply overwhelmed as the only Scald user with reliable recovery is Alomomola (who happens to be the biggest setup bait for BU Floatzel).And floatzel cannot be burned, which is nice, but burn isnt that common besides a resisted scald ( you probably cannot do much to the poke back if it uses scald, as they are usually a water type), and to pokes that you extremely threaten (misdreavus, torkoal) and would most likely switch out (it is a nice ability though).
Basculin does pack more power, but Floatzel has more speed and most importantly Switcheroo. The greater speed means Floatzel does not have to Aqua Jet as often as Basculin and spends more of its time using its stronger Water STAB. Switcheroo also allows Floatzel the freedom to switch moves, as well as cripple walls such as Tangela and Alomo that Basculin stands little to no chance against.I know I was for the most part comparing S rank pokes to a B rank poke, so that might not be that justifiable, however, I do not see much advantage to it over Basculin besides a bulk up set that isn't that great, and higher speed (though they both outspeed the 95 rank). Basculin is just so powerful with a cb adaptability waterfall and priority move, which are most likely the 2 most commonly used moves, and basculin already outspeeds so many pokes that it may seem like floatzel's speed is not as important.
Do note that if their HP does fall a little, Floatzel can dispose of them with its arsenal of coverage moves and STAB.As some of the previously mentioned pokes serperior, scolipede, tauros and kadabra all outspeed basculin that do not outspeed floatzel, they are not really afraid of floatzel at high hp's and can do more damage back than floatzel can do to them (except non focus sash kadabra).
Since Basculin gives physical Floatzel competition, while Simipour gives mixed Floatzel competition, being the mix of two can make for an effective offensive Water-type sweeper. While Floatzel does have notable flaws, I'm still fine with low B: Floatzel's speed and decent coverage allows it to threaten a good majority of pokemon in this fast-paced meta, as even defensive pokemon who can take Floatzel's hits must be wary of Taunt or Switcheroo.They both also have comparable bulk, so neither have really much of an advantage. So floatzel has a better attacking opportunity with its coverage moves, swift swim ( which i think its mixed sweeper set is the best for floatzel) and no burn is the advantage over basculin, while basculin does more damage with its stab moves (and can run mold breaker to act as a psuedo lead cb sawk). I do not see that much difference between the two, so if that means basculin and floatzel are low B, or more appropiately, High C, sounds about right.
Serperior and Sash Kadabra can't switch in at all to basculin either, as even a waterfall is going to do sgnifiicant damage to Serperior. Basculins run Choice Band 58% and Life orb 20%, while for floatzel it's 43 choice band and 30 life orb. Basculin is more predictable, but floatzel also almost always carries waterfall/crunch/ice punch/ filler move (usually aqua jet, sometimes brick break or switcheroo), so it's more predictable than you think (certainly not using hydro pump or ice beam, both of which Basculin run more often(surf for basculin.) The unpredictability isn't huge.I fail to see your point. Serperior and Sash Kadabra aren't OHKO'd but they can't switch in at all, and even if you decide to send them in after a Pokemon has fainted, Floatzel has still managed to KO at least one Pokemon and left huge dents in another.
I think you're underestimating Floatzel's speed tier and what it brings by virtue of being able to outspeed Pokemon like Scolipede while still having power. Floatzel still has that element of surprise - Basculins are almost always Banded. Floatzel? Is it running CB with Switcheroo? Bulk Up passing? Mixed? Special? That unpredictability is huge.
Again, who runs LO Hydro Pump? Yeah sure, you think even waterfall will get off more damage than basculin as basculin is slower. Too bad only 1/3 people run +speed floatzel, while over 85% scolipede have +speed nature, so you are usually not getting off any hits. And if you run + speed, basculin's power is even more prominent.Sash Kadabra aside (nothing bar Cincinno can really revenge kill it), Floatzel does actually have the movepool and stats to hurt things. Scolipede is outright OHKOed by LO Hydro Pump (which most do not see coming at all assuming they'll survive the Waterfall), while Hydro Pump/Low Kick and Ice Beam/Punch do good damage to Tauros and Serperior, both of which threaten a good majority of the other Water-types in the tier which gives Floatzel a plus. I do not know why you listed a weak 40 base power STAB move when Floatzel has the capability to hit them hard. If anything, Floatzel would net surprise KOes due to people underestimating it..
Too bad very few people use taunt. That is like saying to watch out for hp grass or toxic on basculin for alomomola. It works to defeat it, doesn't it?Let me just say that Taunt is pretty crucial for BU Floatzel to be effective. Bulky Waters (Alomo, Wartortle) that wall offensive Floatzel suddenly have the tables turned on them as they can do nothing to stop Floatzel from boosting and sweeping/passing: Alomo can't heal, Wartortle can't Haze, neither can Toxic. Taunt can also stop stuff like Roar or status, and having Taunt on a Baton Passer is a pretty good thing, even if it happens to be very frail (Bulk Up can fix that to an extent).
Correct. I an not sure if the calcs posted from Axa were assuming max special attack max attack as those calcs were listed together.I agree that Floatzel must sacrifice bulk for a mixed set, but I don't get how its speed will be affected by SAtk investment. Floatzel's speed is its biggest selling point, not so much its Attack so that doesn't take precedence, while maximizing speed is a must.
Outspeeding with +speed, correct. More floatzels should run +speed, but then the power suffers too much form experience.I will agree that Simipour gives Floatzel the greatest competition in performing a mixed set (I say mixed because not only is Simipour indeed superior at pure special sets, it can also match much of Floatzel's movepool for a mixed set). However, the increase in power is not as impactful as the greater speed (notably outspeeding Scolipede, Serperior and +2 Carracosta), so Floatzel can still hold its niche.
Get what you are saying, but life orb also give basculin freedom to switch moves, while toxic, hp grass or ice beam can be used to give alomomola and tangela competitionBasculin does pack more power, but Floatzel has more speed and most importantly Switcheroo. The greater speed means Floatzel does not have to Aqua Jet as often as Basculin and spends more of its time using its stronger Water STAB. Switcheroo also allows Floatzel the freedom to switch moves, as well as cripple walls such as Tangela and Alomo that Basculin stands little to no chance against.
Yeah I meant speed, though speed was kinda implied based off what I was talking aboutDo note that if their HP does fall a little, Floatzel can dispose of them with its arsenal of coverage moves and STAB.
I'd be fine for low B if Basculin also gets the chance :)Since Basculin gives physical Floatzel competition, while Simipour gives mixed Floatzel competition, being the mix of two can make for an effective offensive Water-type sweeper. While Floatzel does have notable flaws, I'm still fine with low B: Floatzel's speed and decent coverage allows it to threaten a good majority of pokemon in this fast-paced meta, as even defensive pokemon who can take Floatzel's hits must be wary of Taunt or Switcheroo.