Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

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Okay, so my point was that if you're trying to prove that HP Fighting/Toxic/Refresh are gimmicky options and have big drawbacks, you shouldn't point them to usage statistics as those prove nothing at all and there's plenty of underused sets that work amazingly in the current metagame.
Rather than doing that, you should point out their flaws.

E.G. "HP Fighting isn't actually that great of an option on Latias, because it has better options to hit any pokemon besides Tyranitar, Grass knot hits Tyranitar almost as hard and it has better utility on other pokemon too, it doesn't force you into dropping your Special Attack with Draco Meteor in order to hit water types hard, especially Gastrodon and Quagsire, both of which can prove to be quite a nuisance to offensive teams. Specs Latios could more viably use HP Fighting, as unlike Latias, it actually OHKO's ScarfTar after Stealth Rock, which Grass Knot wouldn't achieve."

"Latias is quite defensive, and most defensive pokemon are great at using toxic to their advantage, Latias however, isn't one of them. Latias, unlike toxic users like Chansey, actually has a good offense behind that amazing bulk, and doesn't absolutely need toxic to do consistent damage, it also differentiates it from Toxic users like Heatran and Gliscor, as while those two have STABs that seriously harm steel types if they were to stay in, most of Latias' switch-ins are actually Steel-type, meaning Toxic is frequently more of a liability than anything."

"Refresh is a great move for a tanky set-up sweeper like Latias, as it allows it to clear itself from Status conditions, however this move faces heavy competition from the move "Substitute", Substitute helps Latias shield from status but it's also a great buffer for pursuit trappers, which refresh Latias absolutely despises. It also is immensely helpful for Latias to scout your opponent's move. While this is at a cost of being able to switch directly into status moves, most teams would value not losing their latias as easily pursuit trappers a lot more, as there is a lot of pressure put on Latias in the current metagame."

"I absolutely love Specs Latias, it's probably one of my favourite sets in the OU metagame right now, but it only has a few very specific niches, and it's definitely not for every team. If you just slap it on your standard team, you'll be wondering to yourself why you aren't using either Specs Latios, or a more defensive Latias set. Your team needs to capitalise on the superior bulk along with the still amazing power, maybe even the surprise value and the ability to use healing wish ( or just species clause being a thing, if you're planning to use Specs Latios alongside it ), otherwise you'll regret your decision to use Specs Latias."

Latias has a great movepool, and while it has so many options, the niches of most non-standard sets are just too small to use on just any team, which is means while at first glance it's amazingly versatile, in practice, it's rather one-dimensional compared to a variety of other pokemon in OU.

After we've established that Latias really isn't as versatile as one might suspect, we have to look at that crippling pursuit weakness alongside the fact that while it can get around it's checks and counters, it has a great difficulty in doing so.

Overall, Latias is still an amazing pokemon, but it still requires a lot of support and it's just not quite S-Rank material.

And to think this was supposed to be a summary ;_;


Anyways that was just how I see things, so feel free to just dismiss all of it haha
 
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Monte Cristo

Banned deucer.
Okay, so this guy is actually PMing me telling me that he's pissed that I'm not replying to his argument, and assumes I'm elitist because I can't be bothered to go back and forth about why I don't think Latias is S rank material. But so be it.

http://pastebin.com/a1ifTNzj

Right,


Right so I went and looked up the latest usage statistics to see how often HP Fighting is used on Latias

Moves | | Dragon Pulse 54.244% | | Roost 52.551% | | Calm Mind 48.879% | | Psyshock 43.398% | | Draco Meteor 42.225% | | Surf 31.584% | | Hidden Power Fire 27.929% | | Substitute 25.006% | | Recover 23.654% | | Thunderbolt 6.784% | | Healing Wish 6.118% | | Trick 5.900% | | Reflect Type 5.514% | | Psychic 3.775% | | Roar 2.856% | | Other 19.583%

Huh, that's funny, it's get less usage than Roar, which gets less than 3% usage.
Oh, now your basing your argument around usage, great, because we ALL now how genius the ladder is


Okay, also in the usage stats, you'll notice that Toxic or Refresh is no where to be seen. Saying Latias is a better Toxic staller than most is wrong, and even if it somehow was better than Tentecruel, Gliscor, or Heatran at Toxic Stalling, that doesn't make Latias a good Toxic staller.

read my previous remark, also what I meant by that was that it's better than MOST, that's like saying "Volcrona is better than most special set up sweepers" does htat mean it's better than CM Jirachi, Latias and Latios? Not neecesarily since those work differently, I'm only comparing it to pokemon who do it the same way, latias is more of an offensive toxic staller, which you don't find much of

Fact of the matter is, Tyranitar / Scizor / Jirachi still forced Latias out. I don't give a fuck if it goes into Volcarona, I stopped it's sweep, and forced it out. There's no point in bringing up Volcarona or any sweeper for that matter, that's not the point. You claimed in your first arguement that Latias requires no support, yet you just admitted that it's easily forced out by these Pokemon? Also, Tyranitar might not be able to Pursuit trap CM Latias, but Latias has just lost 25% health, and this is only assuming CM Latias. Any other set is easily trapped.

Yes it forced Latias out, but look what you have on your hands, a special sweeper ready to crumble your team with only +1, and why? thanks to latias supporting it. I said Latias requires no support to be S rank materal, but like every pokemon, who doesn't love not having to worry about random silly things? Seriously, even Ttar enjoys support to take the pressure off it to chip away at fighting pokemon with CB Superpower and just switch out into a psychic type like reuniclus or latias.

Again, these gimmicks just don't exist. Look at those usage stats. Sure HP Fighting Latias can get past Tyranitar (and even that is questionable), but that's like saying Gyarados can get past Ferrothorn with Choice Specs Thunder, therefore it no longer counters it. Stop bringing up sets that don't exist.

I like how you say gimmicks that don't exist, when your comparing it to specs gyarados lmao, Specs Gyarados is a complete moveset overhaul and removes gyarados's niche (only water type DD user other than kingdra) and removes the point of using it over things like kingdra. WHile HP fighting is ONE LITTLE SLASH OVER A HIDDEN POWER TYPE. THat's honestly like saying HP Bug Keldeo is a gimmick, it's not. Also saying it doesn't exist, and that it doesn't get much usage are two different world. Stop bringing up points 100% based on usage.

Why are you bringing up Keldeo as if they are comparable? I for one don't think Keldeo should be S rank, so don't start arguing me "Well if Latias isn't S rank, then neither is Keldeo!!!!". Again, stop bringing up sets that don't exsist. No one uses Specs Latias.

Items | | Leftovers 55.149% | | Life Orb 28.452% | | Choice Scarf 4.586% | | Choice Specs 4.298% | | Light Clay 2.101% | | Lum Berry 1.213% | | Other 4.201%

4%. Wow, you're right, that's amazing. Also, locking yourself into HP Fire to nail Jirachi or Scizor leaves you so easily pursuit trapped, and even if you predict the Jirachi switch and HP Fire, you're still getting easily trapped by Tyranitar. By the way, saying there are only 3 counters to Latias is a huge exaggeration. Off the top of my head, I can think of Tyranitar, Scizor, Jirachi, Ferrothorn, Metagross, Blissey, Chansey, Perish Song Toed, SpDef Hippowdon, SpDef Skarmory, Heatran, Bronzong and probably others.


I'm not even going to comment on how pointless it is to use usage as an argument, because the usage argument doesn't work imo, mainly because anybody can hop on the ladder, get 42 matches with an lackluster RMT team to test it out and modify the usage stats, the fact that anybody with free time can modify it is the problem, if this was exclusive to intelligently posting forum members then MAYBE it would work imo. that and the usage argument can be applied to every poke :/

Also I love how Bliss is getting 2HKOD by specs psyshock, and both pink blobs are getting set up on by subCM/Refresh CM, Nice to see Sdef Skarm getting 2HKOd amazingly by HP fire: 252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 224 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 184-218 (56.26 - 66.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
and Hippo by surf: 252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 244-288 (58.09 - 68.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Not only that but Politoed is at best a check to the CM set because it can't beat a CM variant with too much boosts, that and specs OHKOs standard defensive politoed with SR basically:
252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Politoed: 304-358 (79.16 - 93.22%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Heatran gets wrekd by Surf, Metagross by HP fire outside of rain like I mentioned, Ferro by HP fire, honestly it just seems to me that your just stacking random pokemon who have a chance to live a ineffective move (surf on politoed etc)

There's no point in responding to this. How does this prove that Latias is S rank again?

I was comparing a S rank poke to keldeo in response to your too easy to counter argument, which by the way I believe to be bullshit, Psyshock/HPFire/Surf/Draco is basically hitting most switchins for heavy amounts of damage, only true switchins are Sdef Jirachi and Sdef Tyranitar, and those alone are amazing pokemon, so your probably not using them for Latias on your teams, so the 2 best switchins or 2 actual legitimate safe switchins to Latias are going to be carried for their other viabillity, even though I have to say I've used Sdef tar before, and I have to say just go with CB tar, CB tar hits like a nuke imo.
(CBtar hates taking Specs Surf anyways: 252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Surf vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 184-218 (47.66 - 56.47%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock) anyway, don't even feel like going over the rest of it


Good, because it fucking isn't.

I assume this aggretion comes from you thinking Keldeo is better, in which I have to say, they're not even comparable so I advise you not to waste your time focusing on this :/.

Latias is countered easily. Hopefully I've shown you this through my post.

Latias isn't, Hopefully I've shown you this through my post.
arguments in bold , sorry I couldn't get to your post spinda, I had this written out before you posted, hopefully someone else posts so I don't have to double post to get my response in (I don't want to cram 1 post with 2 responses, it makes it a bit ugly imo.)
 

PDC

street spirit fade out
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lol

"Latias requires no support to be S Rank material"

You're joking right?

Latias with Choice Specs is cool. But prediction is overrated so much its unbelievable. SubCM gets beaten by Blissey, it really isn't that hard. Nobody is switching Hippowdon into offensive Latias. Heatran doesn't get "wrecked" by Surf unless you have Specs or Rain, Specs has no Recovery and it is not checking the majority of threats that more defensive sets do. Politoed isn't even a check, it is barely doing anything but Perish Songing CM variants.

LETS BAN SPECS LATIOS!!!!! Specs Latios does literally everything you said Latias did with Specs but stronger, I don't get what you're even saying. Yeah, Specs Latias is usefully bulky, but your argument makes no sense. Why are you even bothering bringing up SpecsLatias when by far it is not its best set? Latias is checked pretty easily to be honest, and i'm a huge Latias fan-boy. Hell, even countered outright a lot of the time.

Also HP Fighting is a much more specific move than HP Bug / Ghost on Keldeo.
 

Monte Cristo

Banned deucer.
" latias is more of an offensive toxic staller"

Your whole argument is invalid.
I love the fact that you didn't even understand what I meant by that, things like gliscor are not even hitting as hard with 95 base attack, Latias at most should be running 64 special attack on such a defensive set. Also, great to see you read my whole argument, also

"#Using Hash Tags on Smogon, seems legit

Let's get on this @Joim"

And as a responce to PDC, Latias is basically maintaining the same important 2HKOs and OHKOs that Latios gets while havinbg more overral bulk, theirs not much reason to use Latios over it when considering the bulk is "nice" in such an offensive meta as BW2.

Also I was replying to SStarmie's post about some rediculous Counters he had up there. Also Saying Latias can't have the great things of it's defensive and CM sets at the same time in cunjunction with Specs is just a fact, but Latias as a pokemon in general can run those types of sets to prove it's capability to wall them. If we were talking on the weak points of every set, then versatillity in general would be though of as a bad set, also I never said HP Ghost on keldeo is specific, but HP Bug really is imo, not only do you lose out on hitting Toxicroak for SOME damage (oh that and standard jellicent) but your just hitting Celebi, which I can see WHY you would use it, just seems odd to me :/.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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Haha why is it that every discussion seems to never end with one side winning in this thread?

Anyways, most of what's been said about Latias has been said by ShootinStarmie and PDC at this point, but without having to go into detail, Latias is far from being S-rank with T-tar and Scizor being so prevalent in the metagame right now. Sure there are SOME sets that can work around these Pokemon like HP Fire for Scizor or Reflect Type for T-tar, but most of Latias' sets in this metagame tend to be vulnerable to these two Pokes in general, T-Tar in particular. Saying that Latias' can run Reflect type to beat T-Tar is no near comparable to something like Keldeo, who can actually afford to run HP Bug to beat Celebi seeing that it's movepool is so trash to the point that it can accomplish anything with just two moves + Hidden Power. Latias can't afford to run Reflect Type or else it loses an assload of coverage. If it uses HP Fighting, then it loses to Scizor while also still failing to OHKO support T-tar that then proceeds to rape it with a Crunch. I agree that Latias is probably one of the best offensive checks to a lot of things in the metagame right now, and it's overall an amazing Pokemon, but with these absurd arguments that walk a fine line between using gimmicks as a way to support your claims compared to just straight up actual hard facts, then it's not exactly a fair discussion IMO.

Anyways, we should stop.
 

alexwolf

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About Haxorus:

Haxorus is actually pretty decent in the current OU metagame. Much of the new findings for Haxorus have revolved around Choice Band sets and their ability to fuck over sash Breloom (who i'm convinced is getting more annoying by the day). Swords Dance / Double Dance sets are still decent, and even though it's still outsped by Scarf Keldeo it's still a decent dancer since it's not as vulnerable to priority. It's still the only physical dragon with Taunt, which means it doesn't have to fuck around with certain walls. This post might lead some people to think that Haxorus is a good, but I still feel likeit's mostly outdone by the other dragons (not outclassed), but it's decent enough for B-tier.
Actually Adamant Choice Band Garchomp does everything that CB Haxorus can do and even more, which says it all. Garchomp can get all of the important OHKO/2HKOes that Haxorus gets, making it practically unwallable outside of Skarmory (outside of rain, in rain it is 2HKOed), and also gets the OHKO on Sash Breloom with Dual Chop. However, Garchomp has Ground STAB and a ton more bulk, and is also naturally faster, while being immune to Thunder Wave and Volt Switch too, leaving CB Haxorus completely overshadowed.
 

Jukain

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@ShootinStarmie in the future don't use usage-based arguments -- they prove nothing and are not reflective of the Pokemon's capabilities.

Well in any case, @alexwolf, saying Adamant Garchomp is viable is like saying Modest Keldeo is viable -- a pretty funny joke. Giving up outrunning non-Scarf Salamence, +Spd Kyurem-B, Timid Volcarona...I don't find that acceptable, especially when each of these Pokemon can hit you hard. CB Haxorus is pretty damn strong, but it faces competition from Bandchomp for all the other reasons you mentioned. It's slightly less powerful -- Adamant is not acceptable though.

Haxorus also boasts access to Superpower, which lets it smack threats like Ferrothorn and even Skarmory harder. It also gets access to Dragon Dance and Swords Dance, with more Speed and power than Dragonite and a lack of a 4x Ice weakness.

B-tier, I would say, is perfect for it.
 

Asek

Banned deucer.
@ShootinStarmie in the future don't use usage-based arguments -- they prove nothing and are not reflective of the Pokemon's capabilities.

Well in any case, @alexwolf, saying Adamant Garchomp is viable is like saying Modest Keldeo is viable -- a pretty funny joke. Giving up outrunning non-Scarf Salamence, +Spd Kyurem-B, Timid Volcarona...I don't find that acceptable, especially when each of these Pokemon can hit you hard. CB Haxorus is pretty damn strong, but it faces competition from Bandchomp for all the other reasons you mentioned. It's slightly less powerful -- Adamant is not acceptable though.

Haxorus also boasts access to Superpower, which lets it smack threats like Ferrothorn and even Skarmory harder. It also gets access to Dragon Dance and Swords Dance, with more Speed and power than Dragonite and a lack of a 4x Ice weakness.

B-tier, I would say, is perfect for it.
Specs Modest Keld in rain takes a gigantic shit on everything though >:(

In all seriousness though haxorus's access to superpower to beat both ferro and skarm is probably worse than Garchomps access to fire blast / flamethrower with usable SpA to 2HKO both of these 2 the majority of the time w/o any stat drops. Dragon Dance and Swords Dance are both outclassed by Draonite and Garchomp respectively. Double Dance and DD + Taunt are 2 niche sets that haxorus can utilize, and Taunt + DD was pretty good not so long ago to just set up pokemon that would normals status / PHaze you.

Don't be so quick to hate on adamant chomp, adamant would still outspeed the vast majority of the slower defensive threats that you would bring CB Outrage / EQ in to soften up and when you get a good switch in the damage boost from the adamant nature is pretty noticeable. Haxorus being more resistant to mamoswine and donpan(lol) and access to really situational move combos are the only things i really see it has over chomp and other dragons in the tier in general
 

ShootingStarmie

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@ShootinStarmie in the future don't use usage-based arguments -- they prove nothing and are not reflective of the Pokemon's capabilities.

Well in any case, @alexwolf, saying Adamant Garchomp is viable is like saying Modest Keldeo is viable -- a pretty funny joke. Giving up outrunning non-Scarf Salamence, +Spd Kyurem-B, Timid Volcarona...I don't find that acceptable, especially when each of these Pokemon can hit you hard. CB Haxorus is pretty damn strong, but it faces competition from Bandchomp for all the other reasons you mentioned. It's slightly less powerful -- Adamant is not acceptable though.

Haxorus also boasts access to Superpower, which lets it smack threats like Ferrothorn and even Skarmory harder. It also gets access to Dragon Dance and Swords Dance, with more Speed and power than Dragonite and a lack of a 4x Ice weakness.

B-tier, I would say, is perfect for it.
I was never using usage to determine Latias' capabilities. I was using usage to try and show how Toxic, Refresh, and HP Fighting are not used enough to consider as a set. I know usage doesn't mean much when talking about how viable a Pokemon is, but it is useful to see what their standard sets are.
 
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And as a responce to PDC, Latias is basically maintaining the same important 2HKOs and OHKOs that Latios gets while havinbg more overral bulk, theirs not much reason to use Latios over it when considering the bulk is "nice" in such an offensive meta as BW2.
no

just no

252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 265-312 (81.79 - 96.29%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 298-351 (91.97 - 108.33%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haban Berry Garchomp: 304-359 (84.91 - 100.27%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haban Berry Garchomp: 341-402 (95.25 - 112.29%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock



You also said that Latias can use HP Fighting to eliminate Tyranitar.

252 SpA Life Orb Latias Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 177-208 (43.81 - 51.48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO.

Even hp fighting won't stop her from being pursuit trapped.

(since you were talking about Specs Latias)
252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Draco Meteor vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 306-360 (79.27 - 93.26%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 343-405 (88.86 - 104.92%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 168-200 (47.72 - 56.81%) -- 90.23% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 148-176 (42.04 - 50%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Surf vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor in rain: 247-291 (72.01 - 84.83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Surf vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor in rain: 277-327 (80.75 - 95.33%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

So as you can see, latios can gain some OHKOs and 2HKOs with the help of Stealth Rock, something Latias can't do.
 

alexwolf

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@ShootinStarmie in the future don't use usage-based arguments -- they prove nothing and are not reflective of the Pokemon's capabilities.

Well in any case, @alexwolf, saying Adamant Garchomp is viable is like saying Modest Keldeo is viable -- a pretty funny joke. Giving up outrunning non-Scarf Salamence, +Spd Kyurem-B, Timid Volcarona...I don't find that acceptable, especially when each of these Pokemon can hit you hard. CB Haxorus is pretty damn strong, but it faces competition from Bandchomp for all the other reasons you mentioned. It's slightly less powerful -- Adamant is not acceptable though.

Haxorus also boasts access to Superpower, which lets it smack threats like Ferrothorn and even Skarmory harder. It also gets access to Dragon Dance and Swords Dance, with more Speed and power than Dragonite and a lack of a 4x Ice weakness.

B-tier, I would say, is perfect for it.
It doesn't matter if you like Adamant CB Garchomp or not Jukain, the fact is that it's just better than CB Adamant Haxorus. If you use Jolly then Haxorus stops being completely outclassed as then Garchomp cannot OHKO Sash Breloom, physically defensive Hippo, and some other pokes i am missing atm. Also Superpower is nothing Garchomp is jealous of, as not only does it not even come close to 2HKOing Skarmory (while CB Aqua Tail from Chomp has 40% chance to do so after SR) but Garchomp can also 2HKO Ferrothorn with a STAB move that doesn't drop your stats.

And why did you bring up SD and DD sets, i was talking about CB.
 
CB Haxorus is frequently adamant anyway, and Adamant Chomp is only really missing out on +Spe base 90s and 95s compared to Jolly Haxorus, both of which are sorta irrelevant considering I personally rarely see Jolly Luke/Kyu-B.. meanwhile STAB EQ is HUGE.

I've also sorta taken a liking to Modest Specs Keldeo after a certain person convinced me to use it, OHKOing breloom with hydro pump outside of rain is just insane, and I felt like I was only really missing out on garchomp, who felt rather uncomfortable trying to revenge it anyway unless it's scarfed and Keldeo's weakened. I was only seeing Scarf or Modest Agility Thundurus-T sets too, I honestly didn't feel like I was missing out on any important speed tiers.

tl;dr: quit being a hater, jukain
 

PK Gaming

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Actually Adamant Choice Band Garchomp does everything that CB Haxorus can do and even more, which says it all. Garchomp can get all of the important OHKO/2HKOes that Haxorus gets, making it practically unwallable outside of Skarmory (outside of rain, in rain it is 2HKOed), and also gets the OHKO on Sash Breloom with Dual Chop. However, Garchomp has Ground STAB and a ton more bulk, and is also naturally faster, while being immune to Thunder Wave and Volt Switch too, leaving CB Haxorus completely overshadowed.
It's admittedly an advantage that both Pokemon have, but I didn't bother acknowledging Adamant Chomp because you lose out on a pretty big speed advantage by ditching Jolly, it's pretty much inconceivable just to troll a Pokemon. Don't get me wrong, Garchomp is significantly better(hence it's gigantic rank gap), but I was mostly rating Haxorus on it's own merits and it's honestly not that bad. Absolutely willing to reverse the change if enough people disagree with me though.
 
Garchomp isn't as strong and doesn't get Dragon Dance / Taunt / Superpower. For the record I personally wouldn't use Adamant CB Chomp, the thought of being outsped by Timid Volcarona/Thundurus-T and the increasingly popular mixed/CM Jirachi (all 3 of which Chomp should have no problems beating the shit out of) really isn't fun... Obviously Garchomp is a way better Pokemon and has a million different things going for it but Haxorus isn't completely outclassed. It's fine in B.
 
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Shurtugal

The Enterpriser.
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Haxorus at 100% doesn't mind DDing on Scarf Keldeo since it takes SS relatively better as well as HP Ice (isnt it a 3hko, especially Yache DD Haxy?)

Chomp is better but Haxorus isn't 100% outclassed. Mold breaker is pretty cool since you don't have to lock yourself into outrage on Wash / Gar as well.


Edit: yeah s'mores has proven Bisharp is good. (I hope it doesn't become a thing though... Then it'd be the new "creative"-not pokemon).
 

Monte Cristo

Banned deucer.
no

just no

252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 265-312 (81.79 - 96.29%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 298-351 (91.97 - 108.33%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haban Berry Garchomp: 304-359 (84.91 - 100.27%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haban Berry Garchomp: 341-402 (95.25 - 112.29%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock



You also said that Latias can use HP Fighting to eliminate Tyranitar.

252 SpA Life Orb Latias Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 177-208 (43.81 - 51.48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO.

Even hp fighting won't stop her from being pursuit trapped.

(since you were talking about Specs Latias)
252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Draco Meteor vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 306-360 (79.27 - 93.26%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 343-405 (88.86 - 104.92%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 168-200 (47.72 - 56.81%) -- 90.23% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 148-176 (42.04 - 50%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Surf vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor in rain: 247-291 (72.01 - 84.83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Surf vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor in rain: 277-327 (80.75 - 95.33%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

So as you can see, latios can gain some OHKOs and 2HKOs with the help of Stealth Rock, something Latias can't do.
LMAO HABAN CHOMP MAKING A RETURN IN BW2 META. Nah but seriously, you get the OHKO after rocks, so who gives a single fuck when stealth rock is near obligitory on any calc not on a spinner or a poke commonly pared with a spinner (stop calcing volcarona after rocks people, we get it, 50% volcarona isn't living any hits.)

Also, Ferro on HP fire walls both after leftovers damage basically, no point in making a calc for it, especially considering when it can just see you locked yourself into HP fire and switch out to toed anyway. As there is an obvious damage shift from Ebelt and Specs.

Nice to see you didn't calc Specs Draco in sand for Band ttar, making sure that calc looks important, when in reality it's living your hits anyway (come on people, I even listed Ttar as a counter if you don't have HP fighting, don't attempt to say Latios can actually get around it without it either, if Latios was that insane it would be ran more often)

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 229-270 (59.32 - 69.94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock yes it hits for 70% at max possible, but it's not the average and you have to deal with the crippling -2 after.

Also, scizor isn't switching in on rain is LOL anyway since it gets 2HKOD by HP fire in the rain anyway. Regardless, I think most latias sets are better than latios *HIGHLY DEPENDANT ON YOUR PLAYSTYLE* in the general idea of twin dragons, but then again, I could be the nonsensical prick I invision myself to be, whatever. Just my thoughts on Latios over Latias, and the general ramblings of a mad man :]
 

Shurtugal

The Enterpriser.
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You did something wrong there is no way in hell Specs Latios OHKOs 180 Hp TTar after SR. Did you forget sand in that calc, or are you high? :p

EDIT: poster above me Latias and Latios play different roles (one is bulkier one is stronger) so it solely relies on the team's needs one is not better than the other on a neutral plane imo.
 
LMAO HABAN CHOMP MAKING A RETURN IN BW2 META. Nah but seriously, you get the OHKO after rocks, so who gives a single fuck when stealth rock is near obligitory on any calc not on a spinner or a poke commonly pared with a spinner (stop calcing volcarona after rocks people, we get it, 50% volcarona isn't living any hits.)

Also, Ferro on HP fire walls both after leftovers damage basically, no point in making a calc for it, especially considering when it can just see you locked yourself into HP fire and switch out to toed anyway. As there is an obvious damage shift from Ebelt and Specs.

Nice to see you didn't calc Specs Draco in sand for Band ttar, making sure that calc looks important, when in reality it's living your hits anyway (come on people, I even listed Ttar as a counter if you don't have HP fighting, don't attempt to say Latios can actually get around it without it either, if Latios was that insane it would be ran more often)

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 229-270 (59.32 - 69.94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock yes it hits for 70% at max possible, but it's not the average and you have to deal with the crippling -2 after.

Also, scizor isn't switching in on rain is LOL anyway since it gets 2HKOD by HP fire in the rain anyway. Regardless, I think most latias sets are better than latios *HIGHLY DEPENDANT ON YOUR PLAYSTYLE* in the general idea of twin dragons, but then again, I could be the nonsensical prick I invision myself to be, whatever. Just my thoughts on Latios over Latias, and the general ramblings of a mad man :]
Haban Chomp is not a gimmick. What if I have enough Ice resists and Chomp doesn't need a Yache Berry? With that item Chomp can take a weaker dragon-type attack and OHKO that pesky Salamence, Dragonite, Latias etc.

That calc with Ferro and HP Fire was factoring in leftovers.

Yes, I forgot to include the sandstorm vs ttar, but now I found that LO Surf from Latias doesn't 2HKO BandTar, where as Specs Surf from Latios does 2HKO it 100% without Stealth Rock (no, please don't bring in Specs Latias, there's a reason it's not being used: it's totally outclassed by her brother) and who the fuck runs HP Fighting on Lati@s anyway?

How is Scizor not switching in on rain? It'll predict the Specs / LO Draco and take out your Latias with band bullet punch, which is a 2hko. At -2, Hidden Power Fire does ~30% to scizor in rain, which means that Draco Meteor + HP Fire is not a 2hko on it even after stealth rock damage.

And how are most Latias sets better than Latios sets? No one uses Scarf Latias, no one uses Specs Latias, and no one uses physical Latias. Hell, I'd say offensive CM Latios > offensive CM Latias.
 
Actually, Specs and Scarf Latias are pretty good, you're really underestimating how useful that bulk is in the current metagame, while it still maintains great power on specs. Scarf Latias can switch into a e-belt icy wind and still attack it back, people are much less likely to expect it to be scarfed than a latios. It also has healing wish, which does give it an interesting niche as a scarf pokemon.
The main thing is the bulk though, I don't neccesarily need the extra power Specs Latios brings me on my Specs Latias teams as Specs Latias already has insanely powerful draco meteors, the bulk helps me more.

I'm by no means saying it outclasses Specs Latios, and Latios is most likely a better option on most teams, but I know from first hand that Specs Latias has better utility on some teams than Latios would, so it's not completely outclassed at all.
 
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Chou Toshio

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Healing Wish is so cool on Scarf mons. It's kind of funny considering how underrated it's been-- always. But that move literally wins game. Scarf Latias is always going to have major issues with its Pursuit Weakness, but it's no problem that Latios doesn't also share. I'd have to say that the usefulness of its bulk and the awesome power of Healing Wish at least puts it on par with latios for usefulness as a scarfer.

(I still won't use either over Jirachi / Garchomp / 108 Speeder as my Scarfer though-- hate the Pursuit weak too much)
 

BurningMan

fueled by beer
(I still won't use either over Jirachi / Garchomp / 108 Speeder as my Scarfer though-- hate the Pursuit weak too much)
Yeah this is something that always deters me from using the Latis as scarfers you really don't want your choice scarfer to be removed so easiely, unless you have like 2 other sweepers that can capitalize on a choice locked pursuit to keep up momentum and even then it can still spell doom for you. They also kinda suck as late-game sweepers because they lack a move to spam like Hydro Pump or CC, Dragon Pulse/Psyshock are just to weak and DMs stat drop force you out so cleaning up with them is often really difficult compared to Keldeo/Terrakion/Jirachi that can often muscle through a team with their stabs (or flinch chance in Jirachis case). Still their typing is often really good as glue and being able to outspeed everything else coupled with their repectable bulk can often make them viable choices if one can play around their pursuit weakness.
 

Jukain

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Healing Wish is so cool on Scarf mons. It's kind of funny considering how underrated it's been-- always. But that move literally wins game. Scarf Latias is always going to have major issues with its Pursuit Weakness, but it's no problem that Latios doesn't also share. I'd have to say that the usefulness of its bulk and the awesome power of Healing Wish at least puts it on par with latios for usefulness as a scarfer.

(I still won't use either over Jirachi / Garchomp / 108 Speeder as my Scarfer though-- hate the Pursuit weak too much)
Jirachi also gets Healing Wish...

Just saying.

I can see Bisharp as a clear C-Rank given the support from certain posters and my own experiences.

Okay now...proposing Reuniclus for B+ Rank.

Reuniclus was very prominent back in BW1, but with the introduction of threats like Genesect, Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, Landorus-T, Keldeo, and the general rise of Tyranitar and rain, it has been thought unable to keep up with the pace of the metagame. It is likely for this, I understand, that it is currently languishing in B Tier.

However, recently I have found that Reuniclus is just getting better and better, with the banning of Landorus making it even better. Reuniclus can run an extremely effective and devastating OTR set that ravages offensive teams -- it is still accounted for, because when you run into it and get swept, you sure as hell throw something on that can beat it. Choice Scarf Jirachi and the Lati twins are common adaptions. With a set capable of turning the tables on offensive teams that partners well with another slow hard hitter -- Conkeldurr -- Reuniclus becomes nothing short of amazing. This is not to mention that it has Magic Guard, which, if you fodder it to some status in the early-game, enables it to absorb sleep without suffering the detrimental effects of other status. Its movepool has all of the tools this set needs to function, and Reuniclus is more than bulky enough to take the odd whilst setting up.

If it was just for this OTR set, I would be inclined to vote in favor of it staying the B Tier. However, another set exists, and that is the Calm Mind variant. It is criminally underrated in this current metagame. We're talking about a Bug-weak Pokemon that's not even OHKOed by a Choice Band Scizor's U-turn. It can even take a Crunch from some Tyranitar in a pinch. With max/max Bold, Reuniclus can set up on Pokemon such as non-SD/CB Landorus-T, Terrakion, Choice-locked Keldeo, and many more. Stall has a ton of trouble with it, as it is immune to all forms of passive damage. Perish Song users and things like bulky Swords Dance Scizor and Skill Swap Blissey (yes it's plenty viable), as well as phazers (most can't even take a boosted Psyshock/Focus Blast anyway). This set is even dangerous for offensive teams, as once the threats of rain-boosted Hydro Pumps and sun-boosted Fire Blasts are gone, as well as Pokemon that could KO it or Trick it, all it needs is a free switch-in -- which can easily be granted by smart play, a U-turn/Volt Switch, or a resisted hit -- to start setting up and going to town.

Pokemon like Jirachi, Latias, Scizor, and Tyranitar, among others, are common enough to keep Reuniclus out of any A Tier, but its traits make it more than deserving of B+, imo.
 
Don't get me wrong, I've been using Reuniclus a lot lately too, mostly the calm mind set.. But I still think it's rather underwhelming and just requires ridiculous support, Magic Guard and a fighting resist make it such a blessing on hail I just need to throw it on every hail team I make, but 110/75/85 defenses is just underwhelming in practice on a poke like reuniclus :/.
And OTR Reuniclus is usually just deadweight midgame which really doesn't fit my playstyle, it's a great cleaner though.

I think B fits it rather well.
 
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