Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[newtonja]

I think haxorus should be in c rank because almost all of the other dragon pokemon do his job better plus he is doing terrible as far as usage.

 

[Punchshroom]

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.

The 'outclassed' and 'usage' arguments can't really justify a Pokemon's ranking. While Haxorus does indeed face competition in anything it does, that doesn't make it any less of a threat in itself. Swords Dance Haxorus can threaten almost any wall in existence, with Mold Breaker being icing on the cake; Choice Band Haxorus has better coverage than Kyurem-B and more power than any other Dragon; and Double Dance can use the appropriate boosting move to sweep a team. Even if other Dragons perform better, there's no denying that Haxorus is at least a threat to account for.

 

[Jaiho]

I think haxorus should be in c rank because almost all of the other dragon pokemon do his job better plus he is doing terrible as far as usage.

I disagree. Haxorus is the only dragon that can double dance, and is only out powered by Kyu-B, who can only boost with hone claws and has far less coverage. It is also the only physical dragon sweeper who can live Mamo's LO ice shard 100% of the time, even after rocks and a layer of spikes. Haxorus is also the most powerful dragon sweeper, and the best dragon to take on bronzong and other levitators thanks to Mold Breaker.

Is Haxorus a top tier threat? No. Does it have a niche? Yes.

Also, don't use usage as an argument, since it is not indicative of how good a pokemon is. It also completely shits up your argument. Make sure to follow the rules in the OP next time.

 

[Tesung]

The fact is that Volcarona can't run HP Ground / Rock / Life Orb / Passho Berry / etc all at the same time. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by Terrakion and Garchomp having exploitable STABs. What does this even mean? Fact of the matter is these two Pokemon (and a lot more) easily deal with Volcarona nicely. The same argument could be used to move Hydreigon up to A+ rank. Hydreigon on paper can demolish everything, but in practice it just doesn't happen. Also, you're implying that Sun is up and Rocks aren't on the field. This alone is way too much support to boost Volcarona up to A+ rank, as you're basically saying you need Ninetales + a spinner / magic bouncer + a trapper to eliminate other weathers. Most of the Pokemon in this tier don't require as much support as Volcarona.

Volcarona is fine in A rank

Obviously it can't run every single move and item, I was just pointing out that your check/counter might not be a check/counter to a particular set. Anyway, the bulky set is easily the best. And I admitted that the support it needed is a lot, but it also fits right into sun, as sun wil almost always have hazard control and a trapper. While it needs a lot of support, the rewards are far greater than any other mon in its tier ( and arguably the metagame)

I am fine with a, but I think a+ is at least worth mentioning. Ps, haxorus sux

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

I noticed sceptile isn't ranked.

Sceptile for C rank. If you want a fast offensive grass-type on non-sun teams this is probably your best bet. Even with only 105 base special attack, leaf storm is still very powerful when backed by STAB and a life orb. Unlike other grass-types, sceptile also has access to some coverage moves like Earthquake, Rock Slide and Focus Miss. These two moves allow sceptile to hit fire-types (which give grass-types massive problems, especially heatran) for major damage, and it can also use a hidden power of choice to eliminate dragons or Ferrothorn, or even hidden power rock if you want Sceptile to abuse its special attack to the fullest. Giga Drain can always be used over Focus Blast or Rock Slide. Here are some calcs:

252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Politoed: 510-603 (132.81 - 157.03%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 294-347 (71.88 - 84.84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 556-658 (172.13 - 203.71%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 367-432 (90.84 - 106.93%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Life Orb Sceptile Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 354-416 (113.82 - 133.76%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Hidden Power Rock vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 328-390 (88.4 - 105.12%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 255-302 (72.44 - 85.79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 411-484 (119.82 - 141.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 159-187 (52.82 - 62.12%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 138-164 (45.69 - 54.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 0- SpD Landorus-T: 463-546 (121.52 - 143.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 278-330 (86.06 - 102.16%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
4 Atk Life Orb Sceptile Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 317-374 (98.14 - 115.78%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Its great base 120 speed also helps sceptile outspeed threats such as Starmie and speed tie with alakazam and dugtrio, meaning it can hit hard many pokemon before it goes down. Therefore Sceptile's an okay mid-game all-out attacker.

 

[Monte Cristo]

I noticed sceptile isn't ranked.

Sceptile for C rank. If you want a fast offensive grass-type on non-sun teams this is probably your best bet. Even with only 105 base special attack, leaf storm is still very powerful when backed by STAB and a life orb. Unlike other grass-types, sceptile also has access to some coverage moves like Earthquake, Rock Slide and Focus Miss. These two moves allow sceptile to hit fire-types (which give grass-types massive problems, especially heatran) for major damage, and it can also use a hidden power of choice to eliminate dragons or Ferrothorn, or even hidden power rock if you want Sceptile to abuse its special attack to the fullest. Giga Drain can always be used over Focus Blast or Rock Slide. Here are some calcs:

252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Politoed: 510-603 (132.81 - 157.03%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 294-347 (71.88 - 84.84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 556-658 (172.13 - 203.71%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 367-432 (90.84 - 106.93%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Life Orb Sceptile Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 354-416 (113.82 - 133.76%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Hidden Power Rock vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 328-390 (88.4 - 105.12%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 255-302 (72.44 - 85.79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 411-484 (119.82 - 141.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 159-187 (52.82 - 62.12%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 138-164 (45.69 - 54.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 0- SpD Landorus-T: 463-546 (121.52 - 143.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 278-330 (86.06 - 102.16%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
4 Atk Life Orb Sceptile Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 317-374 (98.14 - 115.78%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Its great base 120 speed also helps sceptile outspeed threats such as Starmie and speed tie with alakazam and dugtrio, meaning it can hit hard many pokemon before it goes down. Therefore Sceptile's an okay mid-game all-out attacker.

Please no, just leave this thing unranked, it may have a decent STAB, and good enough stats, but it's typing and no way to get around chansey, latias and venusar while still remaining OU viable also considering the fact that sceptile is much better on paper than it is in play, I hate this argument myself but, it's true. I could nominate mew for A rank by posting blind calcs with 0 experience, it doesn't make mew actually A rank

ALSO no point in calcing 2 hidden power types, make up your mind :/

 

[ogasian]

Always calc Latias with at least 72 hp evs, it is the general consensus among high-level players that this is the absolute minimum for Latias to do its best in the OU metagame.

 

[Jukain]

BLARG weather BLARG

please don't respond to this in a hostile way; i am simply challenging your claims, no more, no less.

I think I could have phrased things better, but the Ninetales calc was only used to prove that the specially defensive set is useless against sun, as it can only switch in on the weakest of fire attacks once(twice with no hazards or prior damage). We already know that 252+ Sun Boosted Fire Blast is going to wreck it. I don't see why you're talking about Hydreigon and Salamence because I don't think that I've mentioned either of them, but it's fine either way. Jirachi being better than mence is no reason for it to move up a rank.

The SDef set is useless against sun Fire-types, correction. Typically, Venusaur will run HP Ice and face being completely walled by Jirachi. Walling Venusaur is pretty big imo... Jirachi is a Pokemon with the best utility in the metagame. This has nothing to do with it being 'better' than Salamence. They are different Pokemon that fulfill different roles. Judged against the metagame, we find Jirachi a standout.

Scarf Jirachi is dissimilar from Keldeo, Latios, Terrakion, and Garchomp(most popular item is scarf, apparently) in that it is forced to speed tie with +1 100 Speed pokemon, while sporting only Iron Head as it's best attacking option. It's also incredibly weak and prone to being setup bait once locked into Iron Head or Ice Punch. Flinching is great, but Steel is a terrible type move to be locked into, resisted by many common pokemon in OU. Jirachi gathers lots of momentum with U-Turn while supporting its team with Healing Wish or crippling enemy walls with Trick. Jirachi also has Ice Punch (which the scarf set is usually forced to run) to revenge 4x weak pokemon, but it has no absurdly powerful 120BP/100BP STAB moves with which it can hit opposing pokemon. Jirachi doesn't really revenge kill pokemon as much as it harasses the opposing team or gains momentum with U-turn (scarf Jirachi singlehandedly takes on Alakazam without being KOed unlike the rest, though Scarfchomp can outspeed and KO Alakazam with Dual Chop). Scarfrachi can potentially flinch its enemies to death (36% chance for a double flinch, 21.6 for a triple flinch), but being locked into Iron Head or Ice Punch with an attack stat of 100 is pretty pathetic. What I do like about Jirachi is that Dragon resistance, but it's definitely not revenging any pokemon that aren't 4x weak to Ice Punch or vulnerable to Iron Head. Most people run scarfers for two reasons; they need something faster to handle the quickest pokemon in OU, they need something to KO +1/+1 Dragonite and +1/+1/+1 Volcarona or they lose the game. Jirachi's Steel typing and bulk make handling Dragonite a cinch, but it struggles against Volcarona. It's very good, but aside from revenging dragons, it's just a supporter/harasser, not a revenge killer like Keldeo, Garchomp, or Terrakion (latios/starmie/gengar/anything else)

+1 100 Speed Pokemon amount to...Volcarona and the occasional DD Salamence. It can revenge kill a lot...unboosted Landorus-T, Mamoswine, Terrakion, Latios, Latias, Starmie, Espeon, Tyranitar, Dragonite, etc. Those are just a couple examples. Also, unlike many Scarf-wearing Pokemon, Jirachi is bulky enough that it can afford to drop its Speed and invest in HP. It can retain its defensive ability AND revenge kill if it wants. I've already detailed how much it can revenge kill...and with Iron Head flinches it can break past even more. Volcarona isn't revenge killed by a lot; with Passho and Giga Drain Keldeo loses, and then you have Terrakion, Garchomp...it's typically better to carry some check that can take a +1 hit. Just because a Scarfer can't beat Volcarona doesn't invalidate it -- it's pretty much Scarf Jirachi's only flaw! Do your other Scarfers have Healing Wish? A Dragon resistance? A 60% chance to do double damage each turn? And U-turn on top of that? I didn't think so.

The Specs Jirachi calc was put down just for lulz. It's not a great set to run on such a weak pokemon with pitifully weak STABs, and even this fails to KO Volcarona. 99% of Jirachi have nothing to touch Volcarona, which by the way can easily come in and set up all over any Jirachi sets. Honestly, it's just fluff, because we all know Jirachi can't handle fire types. The same thing was done with the Jirachi set carrying HP ground, the most damaging move Jirachi has against Heatran. Who cares if it has a Life Orb over an Expert Belt? LO deals more damage, and still fails to KO. The fact that one must mention extensive hazard support when even the most perfect sets fail to handle Jirachi's checks or "counters" speaks volumes to its offensive prowess.

SubCM can do a lot to Heatran, and HP Ground does a lot to Heatran. Water Pulse + Thunder n_n. Pretty much, if you want to beat something, there's a Jirachi set for the purpose.

Many people are talking about Jirachi as some sort of threat with no counters, but barring gimmicks (I'm unsure if Shuca Berry Jirachi is a gimmick) ScarfChomp outspeeds and destroys all variants (Shuca Berry Icy Wind included).

Shuca Berry as a lure is one of the best sets in tournament and ladder play j/s. And you should be running HP Ice 99% of the time. Fuck Icy Wind.

-------

Also um I might be biased but putting Sceptile in C Tier isn't such a bad idea...it's actually pretty okay in practice, and with the Latis and co. gone it can do some damage ...so yeah.

 

[SpartanMalice]

Sceptile does have Drain Punch to hit chansey, but it would need actual attack investment to even 3HKO with Adamant, and chansey can just outstall it. I suppose SubSeed is nice, but Whimsicott outclasses it at that due to better bulk and Prankster, and Breloom due to PH. Sceptile is one of my favourite mons but even then I can say it needs a LOT of support to work well, for starters it needs 2 SDs AND SR to get a guaranteed OHKO on Chansey with that Drain Punch, and its so frail it will never be able to do that, plus most physical sets run Acrobatics, I calc'd Life Orb...

 

[Jukain]

Sceptile does have Drain Punch to hit chansey, but it would need actual attack investment to even 3HKO with Adamant, and chansey can just outstall it. I suppose SubSeed is nice, but Whimsicott outclasses it at that due to better bulk and Prankster, and Breloom due to PH. Sceptile is one of my favourite mons but even then I can say it needs a LOT of support to work well, for starters it needs 2 SDs AND SR to get a guaranteed OHKO on Chansey with that Drain Punch, and its so frail it will never be able to do that, plus most physical sets run Acrobatics, I calc'd Life Orb...

there's no point in running physical, you only run rock slide b/c volc is a massive bitch and for coverage on mence etc.

also subseed loom and whimsicott are p damn terrible. protect seed spore drain punch loom with a sdef spread on the other hand is fucking amazing. protect/subseed obama and subseed venu, and protect seed ferro i guess, are the other viable leech seeders. others suck, including sceptile.

you don't need to beat chansey to be a decent mon also j/s

 

[asbdsp]

Haven't seen this lately, but forgive me if this has been posted already (this is a long ass thread).

How about Landorus-Therian for S rank? It straight counters so many strong things in this meta from Terrakion to most physical dragons. Plus, if its well disguised the boosting sets are devastating, you switch to something to force out its more defensive sets its but instead see rock polish into gg.

 

[asterat]

landorus-t going S-rank would make a lot of sense to me.

the fact heatran isn't in A+ is flat out wrong, and move donphan up...

stop being a nazi.

 

[Monte Cristo]

landorus-t going S-rank would make a lot of sense to me.
the fact heatran isn't in A+ is flat out wrong.

THIS MAN SPEAKS THE TRUTH

and move donphan up...

I AM NOW DOUBTING THIS MAN

 

[SpartanMalice]

there's no point in running physical, you only run rock slide b/c volc is a massive bitch and for coverage on mence etc.

also subseed loom and whimsicott are p damn terrible. protect seed spore drain punch loom with a sdef spread on the other hand is fucking amazing. protect/subseed obama and subseed venu, and protect seed ferro i guess, are the other viable leech seeders. others suck, including sceptile.

you don't need to beat chansey to be a decent mon also j/s

Well the only leech seed loom I have used is PH with SubPunch and seed, back in Gen IV. I might try out the one you suggested though. Anyway, I was saying that Sceptile does a worse job at it than Whimsi and such, not exactly that Whimsi was good, IMO it (whimsi) has just as much or even more flaws in OU. And anyway I was just saying it had something that hit chansey as a response to the post above me :p, Although that now that I did some calcs.... even focus blast hits more apparently, when taking into account no boosts. (Meaning it still is a 3HKO as Sceptile has no special status buff)

Landorus-T is good but I think the main reason it isn't S like Incarnate was is because unlike Landorus, it doesn't have a good speed tier, sitting at 91 as opposed to Lando's 101. Although the bulk somewhat makes up for it, but there are plenty of fast things wit HP Ice and Ice Beam. Now Heatran is a different story.

Donphan, well, I like donphan and all but, other physically defensive mons in OU outclass it in every role, Forry has spin, Ferro has better overall bulk on both sides, Hippo, Skarmory and Gliscor have recovery and Gliscor has PH. Donphan's best niche I'd say is usage on teams that don't really need more of a fire weakness that they'd get with Foretress. Spinning is literally the only reason to use it, as the rest of the mons I mentioned can take hits better.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Donphan is a rapid spinner, a physically bulk ground type and a sr setter in one pack. He is niche, definitely, but saying that he is outclassed in every role is just plain wrong. Forretress has a better typing and more hazards so he is definitely going to be used more since he brings more to the table while tentacruel has better typing and rain dish but donphan still has its niche. If youre looking for a decent ground tank, electric absorber, and a priority user that can revenge kill dragons/genies then donphan is your choice. That said i agree with donphan moving up at least to B- since its decent at its job, can check top threats and spinning is extremely important in this meta. These comparisons with ferrothorn, skarmory and gliscor are pointless, none of them are spinners so none of them should ever compared to donphan.

 

[SpartanMalice]

I wasn't comparing them as Rapid Spin users, they are all physical walls same as Donphan. I'm saying they are better walls than it is due to a combination of bulk and recovery and Forretress is a better wall + better spinner IMO. That being said, I like Donphan, I use it in my sand team, and I have used it on old sun team and it does the job. I only use it on my sand team however as I already have my share of mons weak to fire, and I really wouldn't want forry on my team for that reason. So as I said Donphan can find places like that to fit in. Mostly though, as long as Forry is around it will always be the preferred option on say, a rain team. However you did remind me of something I forgot, the electric immunity, which changes things a bit. On that note it can find some uses in a few rain teams too I suppose, or to counter rain. That should give people some incentive to use it, but only if they don't need forretress.

 

[BLARG weather BLARG]

The SDef set is useless against sun Fire-types, correction. Typically, Venusaur will run HP Ice and face being completely walled by Jirachi. Walling Venusaur is pretty big imo... Jirachi is a Pokemon with the best utility in the metagame. This has nothing to do with it being 'better' than Salamence. They are different Pokemon that fulfill different roles. Judged against the metagame, we find Jirachi a standout.

I'd be inclined to agree with you, but can't resist pointing out that 61% of Venusaur do in fact run HP Fire, while less than 10% run HP Ice. (http://paste.ubuntu.com/6054032/) With Pseudo STAB in Sun, I'm pretty sure Jirachi takes heavy damage, and is likely 2HKOed after a Growth boost. As for the other stuff, I agree with you. Jirachi is very good, and Scarf Iron Head flinching can be invaluable. Sets that do well in tournaments might not do well in the long run when laddering, as surprise value sets often have huge reward when all of your opponents boast an extensive knowledge of the metagame. I've found myself wasting an item slot with Shuca Berry, but I would have to acknowledge its utility.

I think that Sceptile can function well in the C rank, as very few pokemon can outspeed and KO Keldeo while simultaneously dealing massive damage to Tyranitar, Heatran, Jellicent, and Volcarona. I just laddered with it on a weatherless bulky offense team, and it helped keep the pressure on Starmie, Rotom-W, and Jellicent especially. Mixed coverage is very helpful, and I think that this pokemon can definitely support Keldeo and Rain teams very well. I don't like how poorly Sceptile performs around Gengar, but overall its a solid pokemon.

 

[RaXes]

Would it? Lando-T going S-rank would mean that it's just as good as Lando-I was, which implies that Lando-I's ban was completely useless.

No, it wouldn't, they are completely different pokemon with different roles. You can't compare an offensive pivot/physical set-up sweeper to a specially based sweeper. By your logic everything in S-rank is just as good as Lando-I, which is flat out wrong.

 

[Scorpiopt]

No, it wouldn't, they are completely different pokemon with different roles. You can't compare an offensive pivot/physical set-up sweeper to a specially based sweeper. By your logic everything in S-rank is just as good as Lando-I, which is flat out wrong.

Agree Landorus-I was unpredictable and could run all kinds of sets with great efficiency , Landorus-I doesn't have half of uses that is other form has

 

[newtonja]

Okay now that I am a little more well informed I will now argue that haxorus should be in b minus for a couple of reasons. One. he is outclassed by other dragons in almost every aspec. Another thing is haxorus's lack of speed while 97 seems okay it tends to fall short of the desired 100 mark that is typacally wanted in a sweeper without a priority move. This requires that it needs set up and that points to his second flaw is his lack of bulk. This is pretty problamatic making it prone to being revenged killed which is a problem if you need to set up before sweeping. That is why haxorus should be b minus rank

 

[Monte Cristo]

Okay now that I am a little more well informed I will now argue that haxorus should be in b minus the reason is for one he is outclassed by other dragons in almost every aspect another thing is haxorus's lack of speed while 97 seems okay it tends to fall short of the desired 100 mark that is typacally wanted in a sweeper without a priority move which requires that it needs set up and that point to his second flaw is his lack of bulk which is pretty problamatic making it prone to being revenged killed which is a problem if you need to set up before sweeping that is why haxorus should be b minus rank

punctuation phobia much? not trying to be a dick, but it was hard to read that with 0 punctuation.

 

[newtonja]

punctuation phobia much? not trying to be a dick, but it was hard to read that with 0 punctuation.

Yea, you are right sorry about that

 

[FluffyStantler]

Why the hell did Jirachi for S drop? Jirachi is so amazing imo, no true counters, the ability to stop anything in OU dead in their tracks with the appropriate set (lure rachi is genius imo), quite possibly the best ability in the game overall besides multiscale, amazing movepool etc. overall jirachi is too good not to be S, lets stop focusing on the minimalist changes to the ranks and try to do something true and important, jirachi for S is important and not minimalist at all, something like sawsbuck's ranking is pointless, bucks ranking is irrelevant, nobody is going to use that thing, it's terrible already, just stop, I'm saying this so that we have some actual important changes made instead of going through 100s of posts to decide if sawsbuck and sceptile deserve a rank or not, it's basically pointless arguing that won't get us anywhere, I'm pretty sure every good OU player has to agree with jirachi for S at this point lmao, so much good players have destroyed the bad arguments of the non jirachi for S people

 

[False Sense]

Why the hell did Jirachi for S drop? Jirachi is so amazing imo, no true counters, the ability to stop anything in OU dead in their tracks with the appropriate set (lure rachi is genius imo), quite possibly the best ability in the game overall besides multiscale, amazing movepool etc. overall jirachi is too good not to be S, lets stop focusing on the minimalist changes to the ranks and try to do something true and important, jirachi for S is important and not minimalist at all, something like sawsbuck's ranking is pointless, bucks ranking is irrelevant, nobody is going to use that thing, it's terrible already, just stop, I'm saying this so that we have some actual important changes made instead of going through 100s of posts to decide if sawsbuck and sceptile deserve a rank or not, it's basically pointless arguing that won't get us anywhere, I'm pretty sure every good OU player has to agree with jirachi for S at this point lmao, so much good players have destroyed the bad arguments of the non jirachi for S people

Now first off, I do agree that Jirachi has some good reasons to be S-Rank. It's a diverse and powerful threat that can be a force to be reckoned with no matter what set it's running. I'd be fine with it moving up there. But you really shouldn't go around saying that all the other pokemon being discussed for ranking at the time are completely irrelevant. If something is truly irrelevant in OU, then the subject gets dropped quite quickly. However, pokemon like Sawsbuck do have a place in OU, and deserve the attention they're currently receiving on this thread. After all, this is a thread for people to see what is viable and what isn't. So if a pokemon is viable (which Sawsbuck is, mind you. If you don't believe me, I direct you to this.), it should be recognized as such and ranked. Please don't go slandering a pokemon's viability just because they aren't already OU, especially if you don't have any experience using it yourself.

 

[Halcyon.]

Why the hell did Jirachi for S drop? Jirachi is so amazing imo, no true counters, the ability to stop anything in OU dead in their tracks with the appropriate set (lure rachi is genius imo), quite possibly the best ability in the game overall besides multiscale, amazing movepool etc. overall jirachi is too good not to be S, lets stop focusing on the minimalist changes to the ranks and try to do something true and important, jirachi for S is important and not minimalist at all, something like sawsbuck's ranking is pointless, bucks ranking is irrelevant, nobody is going to use that thing, it's terrible already, just stop, I'm saying this so that we have some actual important changes made instead of going through 100s of posts to decide if sawsbuck and sceptile deserve a rank or not, it's basically pointless arguing that won't get us anywhere, I'm pretty sure every good OU player has to agree with jirachi for S at this point lmao, so much good players have destroyed the bad arguments of the non jirachi for S people

*cracks knuckles*
I don't want to argue with you, because I agree that Jirachi should be S rank, but come on. You seriously think that 1) Sawsbuck is on the same level of viability as SCEPTILE and 2) that discussing Pokémon like that is better than debating whether a given Pokémon is A+ or S? Talk about trivial. Are you really saying that we shouldn't be talking about Sawsbuck? Listen, Sawsbuck is one of the best things that a sun team can use to eliminate its normal counters. Heatran? Nature Power or +2 Jump Kick can OHKO even SDef sets. Latias? Double Edge or Megahorn can OHKO after Stealth Rock. In fact, every Dragon can be OHKOed by Double Edge after Stealth Rock. Banded Extremespeed from Dragonite is the only thing that Sawsbuck fears. So excuse me if I want that Pokémon to get the recognition it deserves by placing it in B rank. If we want to talk about what's "minimalist," I'd have to say discussing Jirachi AGAIN after it has already been brought up a million times before is pretty high up there.