B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
The 'outclassed' and 'usage' arguments can't really justify a Pokemon's ranking. While Haxorus does indeed face competition in anything it does, that doesn't make it any less of a threat in itself. Swords Dance Haxorus can threaten almost any wall in existence, with Mold Breaker being icing on the cake; Choice Band Haxorus has better coverage than Kyurem-B and more power than any other Dragon; and Double Dance can use the appropriate boosting move to sweep a team. Even if other Dragons perform better, there's no denying that Haxorus is at least a threat to account for.C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.
I disagree. Haxorus is the only dragon that can double dance, and is only out powered by Kyu-B, who can only boost with hone claws and has far less coverage. It is also the only physical dragon sweeper who can live Mamo's LO ice shard 100% of the time, even after rocks and a layer of spikes. Haxorus is also the most powerful dragon sweeper, and the best dragon to take on bronzong and other levitators thanks to Mold Breaker.I think haxorus should be in c rank because almost all of the other dragon pokemon do his job better plus he is doing terrible as far as usage.
Obviously it can't run every single move and item, I was just pointing out that your check/counter might not be a check/counter to a particular set. Anyway, the bulky set is easily the best. And I admitted that the support it needed is a lot, but it also fits right into sun, as sun wil almost always have hazard control and a trapper. While it needs a lot of support, the rewards are far greater than any other mon in its tier ( and arguably the metagame)The fact is that Volcarona can't run HP Ground / Rock / Life Orb / Passho Berry / etc all at the same time. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by Terrakion and Garchomp having exploitable STABs. What does this even mean? Fact of the matter is these two Pokemon (and a lot more) easily deal with Volcarona nicely. The same argument could be used to move Hydreigon up to A+ rank. Hydreigon on paper can demolish everything, but in practice it just doesn't happen. Also, you're implying that Sun is up and Rocks aren't on the field. This alone is way too much support to boost Volcarona up to A+ rank, as you're basically saying you need Ninetales + a spinner / magic bouncer + a trapper to eliminate other weathers. Most of the Pokemon in this tier don't require as much support as Volcarona.
Volcarona is fine in A rank
Please no, just leave this thing unranked, it may have a decent STAB, and good enough stats, but it's typing and no way to get around chansey, latias and venusar while still remaining OU viable also considering the fact that sceptile is much better on paper than it is in play, I hate this argument myself but, it's true. I could nominate mew for A rank by posting blind calcs with 0 experience, it doesn't make mew actually A rankI noticed sceptile isn't ranked.
Sceptile for C rank. If you want a fast offensive grass-type on non-sun teams this is probably your best bet. Even with only 105 base special attack, leaf storm is still very powerful when backed by STAB and a life orb. Unlike other grass-types, sceptile also has access to some coverage moves like Earthquake, Rock Slide and Focus Miss. These two moves allow sceptile to hit fire-types (which give grass-types massive problems, especially heatran) for major damage, and it can also use a hidden power of choice to eliminate dragons or Ferrothorn, or even hidden power rock if you want Sceptile to abuse its special attack to the fullest. Giga Drain can always be used over Focus Blast or Rock Slide. Here are some calcs:
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Politoed: 510-603 (132.81 - 157.03%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 294-347 (71.88 - 84.84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 556-658 (172.13 - 203.71%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 367-432 (90.84 - 106.93%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Life Orb Sceptile Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 354-416 (113.82 - 133.76%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Hidden Power Rock vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 328-390 (88.4 - 105.12%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 255-302 (72.44 - 85.79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 411-484 (119.82 - 141.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 159-187 (52.82 - 62.12%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 138-164 (45.69 - 54.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 0- SpD Landorus-T: 463-546 (121.52 - 143.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 278-330 (86.06 - 102.16%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
4 Atk Life Orb Sceptile Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 317-374 (98.14 - 115.78%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Its great base 120 speed also helps sceptile outspeed threats such as Starmie and speed tie with alakazam and dugtrio, meaning it can hit hard many pokemon before it goes down. Therefore Sceptile's an okay mid-game all-out attacker.
The SDef set is useless against sun Fire-types, correction. Typically, Venusaur will run HP Ice and face being completely walled by Jirachi. Walling Venusaur is pretty big imo... Jirachi is a Pokemon with the best utility in the metagame. This has nothing to do with it being 'better' than Salamence. They are different Pokemon that fulfill different roles. Judged against the metagame, we find Jirachi a standout.I think I could have phrased things better, but the Ninetales calc was only used to prove that the specially defensive set is useless against sun, as it can only switch in on the weakest of fire attacks once(twice with no hazards or prior damage). We already know that 252+ Sun Boosted Fire Blast is going to wreck it. I don't see why you're talking about Hydreigon and Salamence because I don't think that I've mentioned either of them, but it's fine either way. Jirachi being better than mence is no reason for it to move up a rank.
+1 100 Speed Pokemon amount to...Volcarona and the occasional DD Salamence. It can revenge kill a lot...unboosted Landorus-T, Mamoswine, Terrakion, Latios, Latias, Starmie, Espeon, Tyranitar, Dragonite, etc. Those are just a couple examples. Also, unlike many Scarf-wearing Pokemon, Jirachi is bulky enough that it can afford to drop its Speed and invest in HP. It can retain its defensive ability AND revenge kill if it wants. I've already detailed how much it can revenge kill...and with Iron Head flinches it can break past even more. Volcarona isn't revenge killed by a lot; with Passho and Giga Drain Keldeo loses, and then you have Terrakion, Garchomp...it's typically better to carry some check that can take a +1 hit. Just because a Scarfer can't beat Volcarona doesn't invalidate it -- it's pretty much Scarf Jirachi's only flaw! Do your other Scarfers have Healing Wish? A Dragon resistance? A 60% chance to do double damage each turn? And U-turn on top of that? I didn't think so.Scarf Jirachi is dissimilar from Keldeo, Latios, Terrakion, and Garchomp(most popular item is scarf, apparently) in that it is forced to speed tie with +1 100 Speed pokemon, while sporting only Iron Head as it's best attacking option. It's also incredibly weak and prone to being setup bait once locked into Iron Head or Ice Punch. Flinching is great, but Steel is a terrible type move to be locked into, resisted by many common pokemon in OU. Jirachi gathers lots of momentum with U-Turn while supporting its team with Healing Wish or crippling enemy walls with Trick. Jirachi also has Ice Punch (which the scarf set is usually forced to run) to revenge 4x weak pokemon, but it has no absurdly powerful 120BP/100BP STAB moves with which it can hit opposing pokemon. Jirachi doesn't really revenge kill pokemon as much as it harasses the opposing team or gains momentum with U-turn (scarf Jirachi singlehandedly takes on Alakazam without being KOed unlike the rest, though Scarfchomp can outspeed and KO Alakazam with Dual Chop). Scarfrachi can potentially flinch its enemies to death (36% chance for a double flinch, 21.6 for a triple flinch), but being locked into Iron Head or Ice Punch with an attack stat of 100 is pretty pathetic. What I do like about Jirachi is that Dragon resistance, but it's definitely not revenging any pokemon that aren't 4x weak to Ice Punch or vulnerable to Iron Head. Most people run scarfers for two reasons; they need something faster to handle the quickest pokemon in OU, they need something to KO +1/+1 Dragonite and +1/+1/+1 Volcarona or they lose the game. Jirachi's Steel typing and bulk make handling Dragonite a cinch, but it struggles against Volcarona. It's very good, but aside from revenging dragons, it's just a supporter/harasser, not a revenge killer like Keldeo, Garchomp, or Terrakion (latios/starmie/gengar/anything else)
SubCM can do a lot to Heatran, and HP Ground does a lot to Heatran. Water Pulse + Thunder n_n. Pretty much, if you want to beat something, there's a Jirachi set for the purpose.The Specs Jirachi calc was put down just for lulz. It's not a great set to run on such a weak pokemon with pitifully weak STABs, and even this fails to KO Volcarona. 99% of Jirachi have nothing to touch Volcarona, which by the way can easily come in and set up all over any Jirachi sets. Honestly, it's just fluff, because we all know Jirachi can't handle fire types. The same thing was done with the Jirachi set carrying HP ground, the most damaging move Jirachi has against Heatran. Who cares if it has a Life Orb over an Expert Belt? LO deals more damage, and still fails to KO. The fact that one must mention extensive hazard support when even the most perfect sets fail to handle Jirachi's checks or "counters" speaks volumes to its offensive prowess.
Shuca Berry as a lure is one of the best sets in tournament and ladder play j/s. And you should be running HP Ice 99% of the time. Fuck Icy Wind.Many people are talking about Jirachi as some sort of threat with no counters, but barring gimmicks (I'm unsure if Shuca Berry Jirachi is a gimmick) ScarfChomp outspeeds and destroys all variants (Shuca Berry Icy Wind included).
there's no point in running physical, you only run rock slide b/c volc is a massive bitch and for coverage on mence etc.Sceptile does have Drain Punch to hit chansey, but it would need actual attack investment to even 3HKO with Adamant, and chansey can just outstall it. I suppose SubSeed is nice, but Whimsicott outclasses it at that due to better bulk and Prankster, and Breloom due to PH. Sceptile is one of my favourite mons but even then I can say it needs a LOT of support to work well, for starters it needs 2 SDs AND SR to get a guaranteed OHKO on Chansey with that Drain Punch, and its so frail it will never be able to do that, plus most physical sets run Acrobatics, I calc'd Life Orb...
THIS MAN SPEAKS THE TRUTHlandorus-t going S-rank would make a lot of sense to me.
the fact heatran isn't in A+ is flat out wrong.
I AM NOW DOUBTING THIS MANand move donphan up...
Well the only leech seed loom I have used is PH with SubPunch and seed, back in Gen IV. I might try out the one you suggested though. Anyway, I was saying that Sceptile does a worse job at it than Whimsi and such, not exactly that Whimsi was good, IMO it (whimsi) has just as much or even more flaws in OU. And anyway I was just saying it had something that hit chansey as a response to the post above me :p, Although that now that I did some calcs.... even focus blast hits more apparently, when taking into account no boosts. (Meaning it still is a 3HKO as Sceptile has no special status buff)there's no point in running physical, you only run rock slide b/c volc is a massive bitch and for coverage on mence etc.
also subseed loom and whimsicott are p damn terrible. protect seed spore drain punch loom with a sdef spread on the other hand is fucking amazing. protect/subseed obama and subseed venu, and protect seed ferro i guess, are the other viable leech seeders. others suck, including sceptile.
you don't need to beat chansey to be a decent mon also j/s
I'd be inclined to agree with you, but can't resist pointing out that 61% of Venusaur do in fact run HP Fire, while less than 10% run HP Ice. (http://paste.ubuntu.com/6054032/) With Pseudo STAB in Sun, I'm pretty sure Jirachi takes heavy damage, and is likely 2HKOed after a Growth boost. As for the other stuff, I agree with you. Jirachi is very good, and Scarf Iron Head flinching can be invaluable. Sets that do well in tournaments might not do well in the long run when laddering, as surprise value sets often have huge reward when all of your opponents boast an extensive knowledge of the metagame. I've found myself wasting an item slot with Shuca Berry, but I would have to acknowledge its utility.The SDef set is useless against sun Fire-types, correction. Typically, Venusaur will run HP Ice and face being completely walled by Jirachi. Walling Venusaur is pretty big imo... Jirachi is a Pokemon with the best utility in the metagame. This has nothing to do with it being 'better' than Salamence. They are different Pokemon that fulfill different roles. Judged against the metagame, we find Jirachi a standout.
No, it wouldn't, they are completely different pokemon with different roles. You can't compare an offensive pivot/physical set-up sweeper to a specially based sweeper. By your logic everything in S-rank is just as good as Lando-I, which is flat out wrong.Would it? Lando-T going S-rank would mean that it's just as good as Lando-I was, which implies that Lando-I's ban was completely useless.
Agree Landorus-I was unpredictable and could run all kinds of sets with great efficiency , Landorus-I doesn't have half of uses that is other form hasNo, it wouldn't, they are completely different pokemon with different roles. You can't compare an offensive pivot/physical set-up sweeper to a specially based sweeper. By your logic everything in S-rank is just as good as Lando-I, which is flat out wrong.
punctuation phobia much? not trying to be a dick, but it was hard to read that with 0 punctuation.Okay now that I am a little more well informed I will now argue that haxorus should be in b minus the reason is for one he is outclassed by other dragons in almost every aspect another thing is haxorus's lack of speed while 97 seems okay it tends to fall short of the desired 100 mark that is typacally wanted in a sweeper without a priority move which requires that it needs set up and that point to his second flaw is his lack of bulk which is pretty problamatic making it prone to being revenged killed which is a problem if you need to set up before sweeping that is why haxorus should be b minus rank
Yea, you are right sorry about thatpunctuation phobia much? not trying to be a dick, but it was hard to read that with 0 punctuation.
Now first off, I do agree that Jirachi has some good reasons to be S-Rank. It's a diverse and powerful threat that can be a force to be reckoned with no matter what set it's running. I'd be fine with it moving up there. But you really shouldn't go around saying that all the other pokemon being discussed for ranking at the time are completely irrelevant. If something is truly irrelevant in OU, then the subject gets dropped quite quickly. However, pokemon like Sawsbuck do have a place in OU, and deserve the attention they're currently receiving on this thread. After all, this is a thread for people to see what is viable and what isn't. So if a pokemon is viable (which Sawsbuck is, mind you. If you don't believe me, I direct you to this.), it should be recognized as such and ranked. Please don't go slandering a pokemon's viability just because they aren't already OU, especially if you don't have any experience using it yourself.Why the hell did Jirachi for S drop? Jirachi is so amazing imo, no true counters, the ability to stop anything in OU dead in their tracks with the appropriate set (lure rachi is genius imo), quite possibly the best ability in the game overall besides multiscale, amazing movepool etc. overall jirachi is too good not to be S, lets stop focusing on the minimalist changes to the ranks and try to do something true and important, jirachi for S is important and not minimalist at all, something like sawsbuck's ranking is pointless, bucks ranking is irrelevant, nobody is going to use that thing, it's terrible already, just stop, I'm saying this so that we have some actual important changes made instead of going through 100s of posts to decide if sawsbuck and sceptile deserve a rank or not, it's basically pointless arguing that won't get us anywhere, I'm pretty sure every good OU player has to agree with jirachi for S at this point lmao, so much good players have destroyed the bad arguments of the non jirachi for S people
*cracks knuckles*Why the hell did Jirachi for S drop? Jirachi is so amazing imo, no true counters, the ability to stop anything in OU dead in their tracks with the appropriate set (lure rachi is genius imo), quite possibly the best ability in the game overall besides multiscale, amazing movepool etc. overall jirachi is too good not to be S, lets stop focusing on the minimalist changes to the ranks and try to do something true and important, jirachi for S is important and not minimalist at all, something like sawsbuck's ranking is pointless, bucks ranking is irrelevant, nobody is going to use that thing, it's terrible already, just stop, I'm saying this so that we have some actual important changes made instead of going through 100s of posts to decide if sawsbuck and sceptile deserve a rank or not, it's basically pointless arguing that won't get us anywhere, I'm pretty sure every good OU player has to agree with jirachi for S at this point lmao, so much good players have destroyed the bad arguments of the non jirachi for S people