Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Back to Chesnaught whom I was talking about a few pages back (whom i nominated for B+). The set of Spiky Shield, Leech Seed, Substitute, and EQ/Seed Bomb I mentioned was doubted, and I promised to give some replays. Here is one. Feel free to counter-argue.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-75469627
A: Chesnaught's leech seed allows me to stall out SS Cloyster
B: Chesnaught ends match by defeating Malamar 1 on 1 (which carried psycho cut btw)

first, I discount that fight on the basis that your opponent clearly had no clue how to use dragonite (outrage with gardevoir?).
Otherwise, the leech seed at the beginning would have been done pretty much the same by ferrothorn, who could have also paralyzed someone before switching out. The leech seed really didn't make a difference as after the SS, volt switch would've KO'd cloyster after any attack, it didn't have to be leech seed. The 1v1 at the end shows a situation where it is viable over ferrothorn, but being able to beat the lowest ranked pokemon in OU isn't something to cheer about.

I still think chesnaught is good, but this isn't the best example

 

[Ajwf]

Even as a wall I do have some difficulty having mega-Venusaur at S, its neutral defensive coverage is great, but the defensive stats simply feels a little lack luster being 80/12X/12X, while common threats in S rank possess offensive stats as high as 140s and 150s. This especially when it lacks a leftover which is equivalent to 6.25% extra health for extra turn you stays, and the fact that you resist so pitiful amount of things.(the combination of the five resist is not exactly great tbh, most top threats manage to get aside it rather easily) So in terms of sheer defensive stats it is actually INFERIOR to many existing walls if we only count one side.

And in terms of walling ability, let's face it. While 123 SpA is not something to be underestimate, nor is it particularly threatening given uninvested, especially given the underwhelming SE coverage in its kit. Moreover, its ability to due passive damage is simply lackluster, lacking leftover really hurts you so much in the long term as you have to spam healings a lot more often, and it does not possess sufficient supporting movepool(with only leech seed) or extremely unique abilities like natural cure, harvest or regenerator. The only reason it is used is probably because it manages to deal with both sides at the same time. So overall I think it should stay at Rank A+. It does wall the majority of the meta, but does not wall them effectively.



You are however missing the case that most of these can leave some scars on it, and you have to spend extra turns to heal them instead of throwing out attacks, which can occasionally lose you crucial momentums. So after a few force out(which is not exactly uncommon), you have to start using synthesis on switch. You are also completely screwed by any burns(which does a solid 1/8 health instead of 1/16) so you are not going to switch into any scald/lava flume by anymean, even you don't care of them on paper.

Really, you are keeping the mindset that it has leftover, while it does not.

Really, that's cute that you think Genesect (S rank offensive threat, 120 SpA, Att) and Talonflame (previous S rank, 81 Att) have massive attacks. But then you just go on spewing garbage about venusaur. Resist so little? Oh, really.

UU Banlist

Aegislash, Alakazam, Azumarill, Blissey, Breloom, Charizard, Clefable, Cloyster, Conkeldurr, Donphan, Dragonite, Espeon, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Forretress, Galvantula, Garchomp, Genesect, Gengar, Gliscor, Goodra, Greninja, Gyarados, Heatran, Infernape, Jirachi, Kangaskhan, Klefki, Landorus, Landorus-Therian, Latios, Lucario, Mamoswine, Mandibuzz, Mawile, Pinsir, Rotom-Wash, Sableye, Salamence, Scizor, Skarmory, Smeargle, Starmie, Sylveon, Talonflame, Tentacruel, Terrakion, Thundurus, Togekiss, Trevenant, Tyranitar, Venusaur, Volcarona

Bold are the ones that Venu can wall/make them fear or beat. Italics are the ones that cannot damage venu, but possibly can do other support roles. Strikethrough are the ones that could go either way depending on variants, but venu has a strong chance of winning. Togekiss, starmie, galvantula all struggle to switch into Venu. That, boys and girls, is what he solidly walls out in the OU metagame. Ferro/Forrey/mandi can't hurt venu either. Most of the remaining can't OHKO him, and may also fear sleep powder hitting. Alakazam, Lati@s and Espeon are the only real threats and you better bring Esp/Zam in safely to be sure. Genesect can't really hurt mega venu and I really think Venu could win, due to recovery/eq combo. Sableye can burn, maybe foulplay and is annoying but takes chunks from Giga drain. Scizor falls the same way genesect does, but can boost up and become dangerous if it is SD. That's really limited counter group for "Resisting so little".

To being inferior on one side or another, you understand that there are very few pokemon that have good mixed bulk? Skarmory has almost identical physical bulk to mega venusaur. Remember that HP is weighted a bit more than defense. Having good hp is incredibly important.

Obviously, blissey is the queen sponge but cannot take a physical shot. Mega venusuar is the best mixed wall in the game, outbulking some devoted physical walls by stats and resistances.

I wasn't aware Mega Venusaur could run Sleep Powder, Sludge Bomb, Leech Seed, Roar, Earthquake and Giga Drain at the same time.
The thing is, even if you don't know Mega Venusaur's set it's not like facing a Mega Lucario or Aegislash where a wrong guess can cost you the match. You can easily force Megasaur to reveal its moves with intelligent play (such as using Substitute or switching between grass and steel types) and once you know what's running it becomes incredibly easy to take advantage of it.

The same can't be said about the other S-rank mons such as the aforementioned Mega Lucario and Aegislash because they can and will punish players who try to play too cautiously around them. You certainly don't want to give them a free Swords Dance/Nasty Plot on the switch, just like you don't want to give Genesect free U-Turn spamming and Deoxys-S free entry hazards, while the worst Megasaur can do is using Sleep Powder on a non-grass types as you switch out. Any self-respecting player should be carrying some sort of status absorber or at the very least a cleric anyway.

Also, "powerful" attacks? Give me a break, Megasaur needs to maximize its defensive stats to be able to do its intended job as a wall and without a boosting item or EV investiment those attacks are barely passable at best.

I wasn't aware 100/122 was laughable attacks. Nor was I aware that you needed intelligent play to beat Aegislash, since it only runs two sets. I also fail to see how you are so smart, that you know WHICH of the sleep powder, sludge bomb, earthquake, giga drain, roar moves mega venusaur is running before it starts attacking. But hey, let's compare lucario to mega venusaur on the defensive side if you're going to compare them on the attacking side... Oh, I'm sorry, Lucario isn't SUPPOSE to take hits. As Venusaur isn't SUPPOSED to have massive attacks. But, the difference there is while Lucario DOESN'T take hits, Venusaur DOES have great attack.

Its stats are great, but not great ENOUGH. Among the A rank list you given, you are assuming that they switch into you, but a more realistic scenario is you switch into them, take a hit, and they get something else out.

You are also assuming that we have rank A slot like we have mega slot, while it is perfectly possible that multiple of them are found on the same team, while you are like having 5mss to check them all before we take the EV issue into account.

You may use it as a main tank(which should be its prime job), but than it is not difficult to be forced out after some easy testing of your set, and it is used more like wall afterall.

Also, a cleric or status absorber is definitely not little support when you need it so desperately. As I said before, any burn induced hammers the ability of Venusaur to do its job. And it immediately becomes a set up folder for the steels it is suppose to check given that you have EQ under your belt. While other tanks can still lay down some EH or deal damage on the special side with their much better coverage.



80/123/120 don't outclasses any existing walls with significant margins if at all. It resoundingly walls many thing, but just stops them at 3HKO most of the time, and without the passive recovery from the leftover, many damage which was generally negligible easily stacks up. So even 4HKOs are not safe when you need extra turns to heal the thing off. It may sound like it has leech seed but that is never something you actually use. And giga drain can lose you trades in some scenario.

Also, cleric and status absorber are not "little support".

I agree that M-Venusaur may have been the best wall bar Lugia, but its flaws are still big enough to be exploit. That is why I put it at A+ instead of the might S.

Cleric/Status absorber needed? Hell no. Venu doesn't mind Twave, doesn't get toxic'd and most sleep inducers can't touch him. BURN IS IT. Really. The only burner running willowisp in consistency is Rotom-w (As sableye isn't even USED anymore). Is Rotom coming in to burn? Probably not. More importantly, a fully special set doesn't care.

Oh wait, the beloved Mega Lucario can get burned, too. He needs a cleric and status absorber, obviously.

You have nothing in this post worthy of noticing. Doesn't outclass other walls? What about slowbro? 95/110/80. Zapdos? 90/85/90. Gliscor? 75/125/75. So that argument again? No weight. He outbulks them, has resistances and less weaknesses than all of them.

Seriously. I'm waiting for you to realize that S rank for a defensive mon is much different than an offensive one. Name a pokemon making a whole archtype viable this generation besides Venusaur. This in itself should be enough to make him S rank. I've now developed two full stall teams (high quality, I'm not just throwing garbage together) and there is a monumental difference between the team WITH mega venusaur and the team without.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Yeah let's stop with the mega venusaur already.

Terrordave, if your intention was just to rate mega-pinsir, you'll be pleased to know that it's already ranked (in A+). If you're trying to argue that it should be moved down to A, you'll need more evidence than "it requires some support".

vonK, crobat is definitely good right now, I could see it being a solid B. Crobat seems like a good direction to take this discussion if anyone is interested.

 

[Rotosect]

Yeah let's stop with the mega venusaur already.

Mega Venusaur's rank placement has been a controversial subject it was placed in the S-rank so you can be sure it won't stop until it gets moved down. The arguments have been made, all it's missing now is applying some common sense.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

UU Banlist

Aegislash, Alakazam, Azumarill, Blissey, Breloom, Charizard, Clefable, Cloyster, Conkeldurr, Donphan, Dragonite, Espeon, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Forretress, Galvantula, Garchomp, Genesect, Gengar, Gliscor, Goodra, Greninja, Gyarados, Heatran, Infernape, Jirachi, Kangaskhan, Klefki, Landorus, Landorus-Therian, Latios, Lucario, Mamoswine, Mandibuzz, Mawile, Pinsir, Rotom-Wash, Sableye, Salamence, Scizor, Skarmory, Smeargle, Starmie, Sylveon, Talonflame, Tentacruel, Terrakion, Thundurus, Togekiss, Trevenant, Tyranitar, Venusaur, Volcarona

Bold are the ones that Venu can wall/make them fear or beat.

Lol what, i wasnt really going take sides here because this discussion is already starting to become silly but youre way off in what venusaur can wall or not.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 365-440 (100.2 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

While phys def:

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 285-350 (78.2 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It only needs a tiny bit of prior damage (easy considering it doesnt have leftovers) to fall, so no, its not ''walling'' cloyster anytime soon.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 298-352 (81.8 - 96.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Venusaur's Earthquake doesnt even ohko so it can actually boost in your face.

Gengar can really mess you up with subdisable, taunt or destiny bond ''walling'' it doesnt really mean anything when it often uses disruptive moves to get around bulky mons.

Gliscor can spam subprotect in your face and stall giga drain out, so unless you have hidden power ice you arent really going to have a good time with it.

252 Atk Jirachi Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 138-164 (37.9 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Keep the 60% flinch chance in mind and the fact that earthquake doesnt ohko and tell me how exactly are you ''walling'' it either. Dont even get me started on sp def sets who can just paraflinch you to death.

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 173-204 (47.5 - 56%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO

Yeah, not really sure how exactly are you dealing with this thing.

+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 234-276 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Phys defensive is just koed outright so no need to bother.

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 153-180 (42 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So, you cant really switch in anything else in order to even have a chance against terrakion.

Not sure what ''walling blissey and donphan'' means. You cant do anything to blissey, which basically puts you at a stalemate and it can still pass wishes to its teammates. Ok sure you wall donphan, congratulations, half of the tier can wall him too, but thats irrelevant because his job is to rapid spin and venusaur inst stopping him from doing so.

Come on, do i really need to post the landorus calcs, ok:

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 160-188 (43.9 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Kangaskhan is banned and she actually beats venusaur so wtf.

So yeah venusaur is hard to one shot but its absolutely not ''walling'' a significant part of the metagame. I dont really know where exactly are people even getting this from, it beats and loses to a lot of things, its nothing mindblowing and you absolutely do not need it to make stall work. Venusaur is the one that needs a solid defensive core to actually work properly, stall does just fine without it. At this point i dont really care whether it stays S or drops to A+ but i am really sick of people overhyping it like the next incarnation of gen 2 blissey.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

So yeah venusaur is hard to one shot but its absolutely not ''walling'' a significant part of the metagame. I dont really know where exactly are people even getting this from, it beats and loses to a lot of things, its nothing mindblowing and you absolutely do not need it to make stall work. Venusaur is the one that needs a solid defensive core to actually work properly, stall does just fine without it. At this point i dont really care whether it stays S or drops to A+ but i am really sick of people overhyping it like the next incarnation of gen 2 blissey.

Those calcs don't mean anything. If anything they show Mega Venusaurs outstanding bulk. Mega Venusaur is not being "overhyped", it's just actually that good.

Anyways this whole discussion doesn't make any sense, Mega Venusaur is a solid S rank and will likely remain so for a very long time, so you better get used it.

 

[ensurdagen]

Gastrodon shines with Rotom-W around, being a good switch-in against the washing machine most of the time. He isn't outshone by RW either, Gastrodon has a role distinct from tanky RW. RW avoids being OHKOed by weak grass moves and has volt switch, but lacks reliable recovery with leftovers like Gastrodon's. Due to this, Gastrodon can stall and check better than RW, but has more likely counters due to energy ball/giga drain distribution and HP grass. Rotom is usually used to burn with a 100% success rate, while Gastrodon usually uses Toxic to stall and Scald to threaten physical attackers. Finally, Gastrodon likes sand far more than Rotom-W does.

According to the current tier list, Gastrodon is mostly useless against ~23/64 of current OU threats with right set, and can stand up to the most common sets of ~30/64, which I would call a significant portion of the metagame (the list is far from complete, of course) Just within S and A ranks, he is unable to reliably impact only ~16/40 threats, leaving him useful against 60% of the pokemon that should be above/near him on the rankings.

Gastrodon is A-, because he needs protection from grass moves, powerful normal/fighting/fairy/dragon moves, Toxic, Taunt, and sweepers who find him to be setup bait. However, he can go up against a decent portion of the metagame, especially a few very common pokemon.


Assuming this set:

Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 216 HP / 252 Def / 40 SAtk
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Scald
- Toxic
- Earth Power


When it comes to not-so-obvious OHKOS, Gastrodon can OHKO mega-lucario and terrakion after close combat, can OHKO landorus-I and Mega-Mawile after a storm drain boost, OHKOs offensive Aegislash after an attack because it is faster than Gastrodon, and OHKOs Talonflame after Brave Bird recoil.

Checks/counters the most powerful common sets from Rotom, Aegislash, M-Charizard-X, +1Atk Genesect, Terrakion, Heatran, Talonflame, Latias, Dragonite, Greninja, Excadrill, Keldeo, (M)Tyranitar, (M)Scizor, Landorus-T, Gengar, Gliscor, Klefki, Conkeldurr/Bisharp/Weavile if you can lose leftovers, and most defensive pokemon w/o grass moves. I ran a bunch of calculators to figure these out, but firefox crashed and I lost all the data. The things that really stood out were an ability to check +1 SpA Scarf or Lum Genesect sets without Bug Buzz and Aegislash being unable to OHKO Gastrodon at +2 Atk with life orb.

Pokemon without grass moves Gastrodon is scared of include Mega-Ampharos, Latios, Exploud, Azumarill, Mega-Mawile, Mega-Pinsir, Mega-Gardevoir, Mega-Medicham, Mega-Heracross, Diggersby, Honchkrow, Porygon-Z, Landorus-I, Kyurem-B, Mega-Garchomp, Crawdaunt, and Garchomp, usually only if they are wearing orb/specs/band for the non-megas. Of course, it's mostly useless against setup, taunt, and special walls that can avoid toxic (Deoxys, Thundurus-I, Blissey, Clefable, Scolipede, Nasty Plot/Calm Minders it can't 2HKO)

 

[Ajwf]

Mega Venusaur's rank placement has been a controversial subject it was placed in the S-rank so you can be sure it won't stop until it gets moved down. The arguments have been made, all it's missing now is applying some common sense.

I agree. Applying some common sense to your argument would help.

Look, I'm still waiting for you to respond to Fuzznip's initial post, my post, and point out any faults that severely cripple it. I've just shown a few base defenses for some more defensive pokemon, which venu outbulks. He also outpowers most walls, outbulks tanks and has a larger support movepool than most pokemon attesting to be pure support.

Lol what, i wasnt really going take sides here because this discussion is already starting to become silly but youre way off in what venusaur can wall or not.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 365-440 (100.2 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

While phys def:

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 285-350 (78.2 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It only needs a tiny bit of prior damage (easy considering it doesnt have leftovers) to fall, so no, its not ''walling'' cloyster anytime soon.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 298-352 (81.8 - 96.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Venusaur's Earthquake doesnt even ohko so it can actually boost in your face.

Gengar can really mess you up with subdisable, taunt or destiny bond ''walling'' it doesnt really mean anything when it often uses disruptive moves to get around bulky mons.

Gliscor can spam subprotect in your face and stall giga drain out, so unless you have hidden power ice you arent really going to have a good time with it.

252 Atk Jirachi Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 138-164 (37.9 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Keep the 60% flinch chance in mind and the fact that earthquake doesnt ohko and tell me how exactly are you ''walling'' it either. Dont even get me started on sp def sets who can just paraflinch you to death.

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 173-204 (47.5 - 56%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO

Yeah, not really sure how exactly are you dealing with this thing.

+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 234-276 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Phys defensive is just koed outright so no need to bother.

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 153-180 (42 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So, you cant really switch in anything else in order to even have a chance against terrakion.

Not sure what ''walling blissey and donphan'' means. You cant do anything to blissey, which basically puts you at a stalemate and it can still pass wishes to its teammates. Ok sure you wall donphan, congratulations, half of the tier can wall him too, but thats irrelevant because his job is to rapid spin and venusaur inst stopping him from doing so.

Come on, do i really need to post the landorus calcs, ok:

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 160-188 (43.9 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Kangaskhan is banned and she actually beats venusaur so wtf.

So yeah venusaur is hard to one shot but its absolutely not ''walling'' a significant part of the metagame. I dont really know where exactly are people even getting this from, it beats and loses to a lot of things, its nothing mindblowing and you absolutely do not need it to make stall work. Venusaur is the one that needs a solid defensive core to actually work properly, stall does just fine without it. At this point i dont really care whether it stays S or drops to A+ but i am really sick of people overhyping it like the next incarnation of gen 2 blissey.

Cute how Cloyster magically gets a boost there. Same with Excadrill. Jirachi RARELY runs Zen headbutt. Iron head was way more common.
| Zen Headbutt 6.779% | Not enough to worry about it Imo. Esp considering iron head is used 88% of the time.

Oh, and:
0 Atk Mega Venusaur Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 146-172 (42.8 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

Mawile:
0 Atk Mega Venusaur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 120-142 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
On neutral switches, what was that?

For lucario, I call not getting OHKO'd by a boost a counter. Aka, my usage of Slowbro as a counter. Really, Lucario's counters are ALL like this. The qualification for a counter is to not be OHKO'd by +2 lucario. Even then, though
0 Atk Mega Venusaur Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 160-190 (56.9 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

For Lando, on neutral grounds (since you've been giving everything a benefit), venu wins. giga drain gains back 65-75 HP and stops any chance of a 2hko.

Kan mega obviously wins. Kan mega, however, is irrelevant. Kan is OU (even though I wanted an exception made to drop it) and as such I treat it as the only usable form. It loses, end of discussion.

And the funny thing is, Venu could just lie back on a 50% chance to sleep since none of these OHKO (and let's face it, cloyster is needing to come IN on mega venu, pray it isn't fully special (I haven't run fully special yet...) and then give back all of that glorious health if it is using a boosting item (which again, less than 30% are).

Blissey hates leech seed (giving any teammate you need 25% hp per turn? Yessir) and donphan is 2hko'd by giga drain (Sturdy prevents more). That's an offensive part of the monster.

Your argument is giving them a lot of boosts very easily. Most of these won't even create their own switch to begin with (hence, the ranking can be used to argue that only Lucario can come away with an appropriate boost given it's S rank). So yeah, I fail to see what you have here. Rachi needs to go and use an attack it never uses, Cloyster needs a big boost to have a chance (and if it doesn't, as I calc'd way earlier, you give venu 40% of HP back). I may give you excadrill, but only if you were to be coming in as it boosts. I don't know if it creates free switches, I doubt it does, but it generally just gets wrecked by EQ if it doesn't run air balloon.

And lastly: None of these, and I mean NONE, can switch into mega saur. But yeah, show me how Exca, Cloyster create enough switches to allow themselves to +2.

 

[TrippingRocks]

Lol what, i wasnt really going take sides here because this discussion is already starting to become silly but youre way off in what venusaur can wall or not.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 365-440 (100.2 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

While phys def:

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 285-350 (78.2 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It only needs a tiny bit of prior damage (easy considering it doesnt have leftovers) to fall, so no, its not ''walling'' cloyster anytime soon.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 298-352 (81.8 - 96.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Venusaur's Earthquake doesnt even ohko so it can actually boost in your face.

Gengar can really mess you up with subdisable, taunt or destiny bond ''walling'' it doesnt really mean anything when it often uses disruptive moves to get around bulky mons.

Gliscor can spam subprotect in your face and stall giga drain out, so unless you have hidden power ice you arent really going to have a good time with it.

252 Atk Jirachi Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 138-164 (37.9 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Keep the 60% flinch chance in mind and the fact that earthquake doesnt ohko and tell me how exactly are you ''walling'' it either. Dont even get me started on sp def sets who can just paraflinch you to death.

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 173-204 (47.5 - 56%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO

Yeah, not really sure how exactly are you dealing with this thing.

+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 234-276 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Phys defensive is just koed outright so no need to bother.

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 153-180 (42 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So, you cant really switch in anything else in order to even have a chance against terrakion.

Not sure what ''walling blissey and donphan'' means. You cant do anything to blissey, which basically puts you at a stalemate and it can still pass wishes to its teammates. Ok sure you wall donphan, congratulations, half of the tier can wall him too, but thats irrelevant because his job is to rapid spin and venusaur inst stopping him from doing so.

Come on, do i really need to post the landorus calcs, ok:

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 160-188 (43.9 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Kangaskhan is banned and she actually beats venusaur so wtf.

So yeah venusaur is hard to one shot but its absolutely not ''walling'' a significant part of the metagame. I dont really know where exactly are people even getting this from, it beats and loses to a lot of things, its nothing mindblowing and you absolutely do not need it to make stall work. Venusaur is the one that needs a solid defensive core to actually work properly, stall does just fine without it. At this point i dont really care whether it stays S or drops to A+ but i am really sick of people overhyping it like the next incarnation of gen 2 blissey.

Lol at most of your calculations. What you're basically saying is "Look, this pokemon can't completely wall the most strongest offensive threats ever!" And then you decide to throw in +2 in the calculations for the heck of it. NO POKEMON can take a +2 Mega Mawile hit super well unless they quadruple resist his attack or something. If M-Venasaur can take 1 or 2 hits from these offensive monsters after they've set up, it's impressive as heck. He can also hit them back hard. Maybe not outright OHKO them, but he certainly hits a heck of a lot harder than other defensive pokemon.

Just because he's in S-rank, don't expect M-Venusaur to single-handedly stop something like a Dragonite with 6 dragon dances.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

all it's missing now is applying some common sense.

Something you should've done in the beginning. You've completely ignored everything said, almost as if you ignore arguments entirely. I doubt you entirely know what makes a Pokemon S-Rank. You have only made yourself look horribly bad.

On a side note, I'm unsure as to where Blissey should be ranked. She obviously cannot stand physical attackers, but maintains the qualities of a Special Wall (and isn't as hurt from Knock Off). I'm still unsure, though, and will later test more.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

I agree. Applying some common sense to your argument would help.

Look, I'm still waiting for you to respond to Fuzznip's initial post, my post, and point out any faults that severely cripple it. I've just shown a few base defenses for some more defensive pokemon, which venu outbulks. He also outpowers most walls, outbulks tanks and has a larger support movepool than most pokemon attesting to be pure support.



Cute how Cloyster magically gets a boost there. Same with Excadrill. Jirachi RARELY runs Zen headbutt. Iron head was way more common.
| Zen Headbutt 6.779% | Not enough to worry about it Imo. Esp considering iron head is used 88% of the time.

Oh, and:
0 Atk Mega Venusaur Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 146-172 (42.8 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

Mawile:
0 Atk Mega Venusaur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 120-142 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
On neutral switches, what was that?

For lucario, I call not getting OHKO'd by a boost a counter. Aka, my usage of Slowbro as a counter. Really, Lucario's counters are ALL like this. The qualification for a counter is to not be OHKO'd by +2 lucario. Even then, though
0 Atk Mega Venusaur Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 160-190 (56.9 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

For Lando, on neutral grounds (since you've been giving everything a benefit), venu wins. giga drain gains back 65-75 HP and stops any chance of a 2hko.

Kan mega obviously wins. Kan mega, however, is irrelevant. Kan is OU (even though I wanted an exception made to drop it) and as such I treat it as the only usable form. It loses, end of discussion.

And the funny thing is, Venu could just lie back on a 50% chance to sleep since none of these OHKO (and let's face it, cloyster is needing to come IN on mega venu, pray it isn't fully special (I haven't run fully special yet...) and then give back all of that glorious health if it is using a boosting item (which again, less than 30% are).

Blissey hates leech seed (giving any teammate you need 25% hp per turn? Yessir) and donphan is 2hko'd by giga drain (Sturdy prevents more). That's an offensive part of the monster.

Your argument is giving them a lot of boosts very easily. Most of these won't even create their own switch to begin with (hence, the ranking can be used to argue that only Lucario can come away with an appropriate boost given it's S rank). So yeah, I fail to see what you have here. Rachi needs to go and use an attack it never uses, Cloyster needs a big boost to have a chance (and if it doesn't, as I calc'd way earlier, you give venu 40% of HP back). I may give you excadrill, but only if you were to be coming in as it boosts. I don't know if it creates free switches, I doubt it does, but it generally just gets wrecked by EQ if it doesn't run air balloon.

And lastly: None of these, and I mean NONE, can switch into mega saur. But yeah, show me how Exca, Cloyster create enough switches to allow themselves to +2.

I am not ''magically applying'' anything. You claim venusaur walls these threats, if so then he should be able to deal with them boosted, because you know, thats the entire reason why people use them, to boost. If he cant reliably switch and beat them then he is not a counter, and thats where your argument falls. ''For lucario, I call not getting OHKO'd by a boost a counter'', no thats completely wrong, if venusaur switches as he boosts he is getting 2hkoed while he cant ko back, thats not a counter, nor is it even a check. Do you actually think i am implying these threats are supposed to beat venusaur 1vs1 lol. Its funny how youre saying i am giving THEM the benefit when venusaur is the one that is supposed to reliably switch in them in first place and i am giving it max investment everytime. The burden is on the wall to deal with the attacker, the point is, venusaur cant reliably wall a significant part of the metagame (he actually loses or cant switch in almost everything in A-S ranks) so that should stop being used as an argument. Hell this criteria should be removed altogether, absolutely nothing can do that outside of lugia anyway. You completely miss the entire point of what a counter is and what a wall is supposed to do. Venusaur is annoying to ohko but he is absolutely not a behemoth that you can mindless switch in most of the top threats and expect to scare them away, so please stop treating it as such. As i said i dont honestly care about its rank but i really want to people to drop the ''it walls almost everything'' crap, because thats not true.

 

[Ajwf]

Please, for Lucario, as I have dared everyone else, find SOMETHING that can take both the physical and special set, survive a +2 boost and return an OHKO. There, to my knowledge, are none. The best option was Tornadus-T outspeeding and requiring priority to take it, the same with Azelf, both of which could survive all priority at +2

As for slower threats, Slowbro, Mega venusaur and moltres (if you can get rocks not to come out) are the best options... Zapdos too. But none deal as much damage as Slowbro, who deals near 80% with fire blast. That's the max amount of damage that can be dealt before it falls. Only Torn-t's Focus blast and Azelf's fire blast can really take it and have any utility on stall while surviving at all.

 

[GoliathGarchomp]

Something you should've done in the beginning. You've completely ignored everything said, almost as if you ignore arguments entirely. I doubt you entirely know what makes a Pokemon S-Rank. You have only made yourself look horribly bad.

On a side note, I'm unsure as to where Blissey should be ranked. She obviously cannot stand physical attackers, but maintains the qualities of a Special Wall (and isn't as hurt from Knock Off). I'm still unsure, though, and will later test more.

I actually made a post regarding Blissey yet it got no reply. If anyone is interested check it out again http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-viability-ranking-thread.3495992/page-44#post-5122223

 

[TrippingRocks]

I am not ''magically applying'' anything. You claim venusaur walls these threats, if so then he should be able to deal with them boosted, because you know, thats the entire reason why people use them, to boost. If he cant reliably switch and beat them then he is not a counter, and thats where your argument falls. ''For lucario, I call not getting OHKO'd by a boost a counter'', no thats completely wrong, if venusaur switches as he boosts he is getting 2hkoed while he cant ko back, thats not a counter, nor is it even a check. Do you actually think i am implying these threats are supposed to beat venusaur 1vs1 lol. Its funny how youre saying i am giving THEM the benefit when venusaur is the one that is supposed to reliably switch in them in first place and i am giving it max investment everytime. The burden is on the wall to deal with the attacker, the point is, venusaur cant reliably wall a significant part of the metagame (he actually loses or cant switch in almost everything in A-S ranks) so that should stop being used as an argument. Hell this criteria should be removed altogether, absolutely nothing can do that outside of lugia anyway. You completely miss the entire point of what a counter is and what a wall is supposed to do. Venusaur is annoying to ohko but he is absolutely not a behemoth that you can mindless switch in most of the top threats and expect to scare them away, so please stop treating it as such. As i said i dont honestly care about its rank but i really want to people to drop the ''it walls almost everything'' crap, because thats not true.

Any pokemon that can be called a "wall" does not function so hot if they're up against a +2 pokemon. Being a wall does not mean, "hey I can take hits from the strongest offensive pokemon after they've doubled their attack stat!" Being a wall means that you are designed to take hits better than the rest of your team and provide support to the team. NOTHING can comfortably take hits from a +2 Lucario unless they got the typing to quad resist it or are flat out immune to it. Your argument that Venusaur can't take a bunch of +2 threats is inane. Your argument that Venusaur can't comfortably take a super-effective hit is also inane. If your wall is being threatened by a strong SE attack, you obviously shouldn't keep your wall in against that threat. The fact that M-Venusaur can take THREE hits from a STAB super effective move means that he's got some great bulk. Still though, you obviously wouldn't want to keep him in on something like that.

M-Venasaur can function as a great wall or as a great tank. Just because he's got great bulk doesn't mean he can suddenly take on a boosted M-Lucario (you know... he's only the biggest offensive threat in the metagame and just double his attack power). He can, however, handle M-Lucario just fine if he's not boosted.

 

[Lazybeef]

Something you should've done in the beginning. You've completely ignored everything said, almost as if you ignore arguments entirely. I doubt you entirely know what makes a Pokemon S-Rank. You have only made yourself look horribly bad.

On a side note, I'm unsure as to where Blissey should be ranked. She obviously cannot stand physical attackers, but maintains the qualities of a Special Wall (and isn't as hurt from Knock Off). I'm still unsure, though, and will later test more.

Blissey is an incredibly sturdy wall, but it is complete taunt bait and is set up fodder for many dangerous sweepers because it pretty much lacks offense. Still, it has a strong defensive and supportive niche. It is most likely rank B+.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Any pokemon that can be called a "wall" does not function so hot if they're up against a +2 pokemon. Being a wall does not mean, "hey I can take hits from the strongest offensive pokemon after they've doubled their attack stat!" Being a wall means that you are designed to take hits better than the rest of your team and provide support to the team. NOTHING can comfortably take hits from a +2 Lucario unless they got the typing to quad resist it or are flat out immune to it. Your argument that Venusaur can't take a bunch of +2 threats is inane. Your argument that Venusaur can't comfortably take a super-effective hit is also inane. If your wall is being threatened by a strong SE attack, you obviously shouldn't keep your wall in against that threat. The fact that M-Venusaur can take THREE hits from a STAB super effective move means that he's got some great bulk. Still though, you obviously wouldn't want to keep him in on something like that.

M-Venasaur can function as a great wall or as a great tank. Just because he's got great bulk doesn't mean he can suddenly take on a boosted M-Lucario (you know... he's only the biggest offensive threat in the metagame and just double his attack power). He can, however, handle M-Lucario just fine if he's not boosted.

My fucking arceus are you even following the discussion. I am arguing against Ajwf who said that venusaur was capable of walling those SPECIFIC strong threats and i showed that was not true. If a pokemon is supposed to wall another it means it can switch in easily and not fear anything. If you switching in you ARE giving the opponent a free turn and therefore there is a high chance that he will take advantage of it in a prediction to boost. If venusaur is unable to stand in to those boosted threats then he is not a reliable switch in and he is not walling them, period, end of story. See heatran vs talonflame who can always wall the standard sets even when boosted, this is what a wall is and thats why this criteria is bullshit imo, NOTHING can wall a significant part of the metagame meaning this is argument is pointless.

 

[RP2865]

first, I discount that fight on the basis that your opponent clearly had no clue how to use dragonite (outrage with gardevoir?).
Otherwise, the leech seed at the beginning would have been done pretty much the same by ferrothorn, who could have also paralyzed someone before switching out. The leech seed really didn't make a difference as after the SS, volt switch would've KO'd cloyster after any attack, it didn't have to be leech seed. The 1v1 at the end shows a situation where it is viable over ferrothorn, but being able to beat the lowest ranked pokemon in OU isn't something to cheer about.

I still think chesnaught is good, but this isn't the best example

Thanks for being real. Anyway, I will try some more tomorrow, I spent type doing monotype as well today :)
More examples on the way!

 

[TheMohZone]

this thread is giving me cancer

stop with the MegaVenu discussion. ITS S RANK AND IT STAYS S RANK! it makes stall viable if that doesn't make a poke S i dunno what does (aside from being insanely busted *coughLucariocoughGenesectcough*) and no argument has given a valid reason why it shouldn't be. this is the THIRD time that this has been brought up and its a waste of time. lets actually rank some shit.

I nominate Crawdaunt for B. mainly because nothing can switch in on it but its easily revenge killed. the coverage and power it gets from just its two stabs is insane. Crabhammer and Knock Off hurt anything coming in not named Mega V...the thing we aren't gonna ever mention again, it can set up an SD scaring people out and its Aqua Jet is more powerful than Azumarills. it Screams B to me.

 

[TrippingRocks]

My fucking arceus are you even following the discussion. I am arguing against Ajwf who said that venusaur was capable of walling those SPECIFIC strong threats and i showed that was not true. If a pokemon is supposed to wall another it means it can switch in easily and not fear anything. If you switching in you ARE giving the opponent a free turn and therefore there is a high chance that he will take advantage of it in a prediction to boost. If venusaur is unable to stand in to those boosted threats then he is not a reliable switch in and he is not walling them, period, end of story. See heatran vs talonflame who can always wall the standard sets even when boosted, this is what a wall is and thats why this criteria is bullshit imo, NOTHING can wall a significant part of the metagame meaning this is argument is pointless.

Oh yes, I do believe I'm following your discussion. You probably don't think I am, what with the questioning, but I actually am. Are you following mine though? I said M-Venusaur can take on those specific threats like M-Lucario just fine if they DON'T set up. If you are switching, you are giving your opponent a free turn... if they predict correctly. If they don't predict correctly, they'll get smacked in the face while setting up. Prediction goes both ways. I already agreed with you that M-Venusaur can't wall M-Lucario if he's at +2. However, you used this basis as an argument that M-Venusaur does not deserve the hype that it is receiving and that it "beats and loses to a lot of things". No, just no. He can take on a lot of things as so as long as they haven't had a boost already.

 

[RP2865]

Also, Moxie ScarfMence!
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-75509389

Dragon Claw, Aqua Tail, Stone Edge, Crunch
Adamant

 

[RP2865]

I disagree. Mega Crawdaunt should be B- or C at best due to how easily it can be revenge killed and forced out. Feel free to counter.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Oh yes, I do believe I'm following your discussion. You probably don't think I am, what with the questioning, but I actually am. Are you following mine though? I said M-Venusaur can take on those specific threats like M-Lucario just fine if they DON'T set up. If you are switching, you are giving your opponent a free turn... if they predict correctly. If they don't predict correctly, they'll get smacked in the face while setting up. Prediction goes both ways. I already agreed with you that M-Venusaur can't wall M-Lucario if he's at +2. However, you used this basis as an argument that M-Venusaur does not deserve the hype that it is receiving and that it "beats and loses to a lot of things". No, just no. He can take on a lot of things as so as long as they haven't had a boost already.

Yes and if you mispredict you die, thats not a good switch in, thats a literal gamble, stop ignoring what a reliable switch in is or the fact that excadrill can setup on and beat venusaur face to face, lucario does the same with phys def venusaur, i was just being kind with the landorus calc as he can just use psychic anyway, jirachi is going to flinch you to death etc. But yeah this discussiong is pointless, the criteria is bullshit and physicaly impossible to achieve, so lets really move on.

I nominate Skarmory for A rank, access to defog gives it a completely new niche that its main rival, ferrothorn, is unable to do and also ensures that theres literally no reason to use forretress ever. Solid physical bulk and typing makes it a great switch in for threats like fire punch-less dragonite, fire blast-less garchomp, landorus-t, focus blast-less landorus-i, heat wave-less tornadus-t, breloom, scolipede, scizor, mamoswine, excadrill, hell its typing is just really that good. Acess to roost sets it apart from every other steel type except mega scizor, however it still has hazards to give it a separate niche from scizor. Skarmory is just really easy to fit into most teams and the fact that it can provide two different (but still crucial for most teams, and even at the same time) kinds of support means its one of those pokemon that will always have a very useful thing to do everytime it comes in.

 

[TheMohZone]

I disagree. Mega Crawdaunt should be B- or C at best due to how easily it can be revenge killed and forced out. Feel free to counter.

well theres no B- right now and i don;t think its quite a C so thats why i Said B. but when B- comes out yes put it there.

 

[6feetunder]

well theres no B- right now and i don;t think its quite a C so thats why i Said B. but when B- comes out yes put it there.

Look again, there is a B- rank.

 

[Not a missingno]

I say donphan should be in the B tier.It has rapid spin,Fairy+Ground+Rock coverage,Ice shard for priority,and is a viable user of assault vest because pretty much all of its offensive options are attacking moves.And for those of you wondering how it gets a fairy move,breed it with mawile or something in the field group with play rough.I say B because it is partially outclassed by excadrill,but is still a good choice for a spinner.