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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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Well, the point is, if you don't play a pokemon to it's strengths and/or don't use its unique perks(unless of course these perks suck), it's likely to be outclassed.
And spikes IS definitely one of its perks(though I have to admit that with defog and the arguably stronger spinners, spikes isn't as useful as it once was).
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.
After perusing this definition, I'd say Ditto does NOT belong in C rank. I think he should be pushed up to B- or maybe even B rank. To fulfill his job, Ditto needs only the field to be clear of Sticky Web. That's it. While he'd appreciate it if other hazards are also clear, Ditto is not severely crippled by the other entry hazards. His "crippling flaw" is that he has low HP (not really relevant if he's acting as a revenge killer), is predictable (that he is), and that he's useless against stall teams. How many hard stall teams do you encounter? I'd imagine not many. The vast majority of teams you encounter are going to be more offensively oriented. And against the few stall teams you encounter, Ditto still won't be complete dead weight. It really depends on the Pokemon Ditto copies.
Ditto has a unique niche in that he completely shuts down set-up sweepers (but not set-up tanks). Ditto cannot be "eclipsed" by any pokemon because no pokemon can do what Ditto does. Ditto's mere existence in a team discourages M-Lucario, Gyrados w/o sub, Dragonite, and a whole other slew of pokemon from setting up. The only thing that can foil Ditto in doing his job is substitute and Sticky Web (which would cause Ditto to speed-tie with the copied target). Sticky Web has a very limited distribution and pile that on top of the fact that removing hazards isn't that hard, supporting Ditto shouldn't be too much of a problem.
While Ditto discourages set-up sweepers, he also acts as a potent revenge killer. As long as the target isn't holding a choice scarf and doesn't resist it's own moveset, Ditto can revenge kill them. Ditto may be super predictable, but so are some other pokemon like Rotom-W. His moveset is almost always Volt Switch/Hydro Pump/Will-O-Wisp/ and a fourth move. The only thing that I'm uncertain about Rotom-W is his fourth move. And even then, I have an idea what his fourth move is. It's either Thunderbolt, Trick, Pain Split or Rest. Still, I know for certain that almost every Rotom-W encountered will have Volt Switch, Hydro Pump, and Will-O-Wisp. That's 75% of its moveset right there. Even knowing this, Rotom-W is still a force to be reckoned with. Same goes for Ditto. Just because his moveset consists of only one move (Transform) and that he'll usually be holding a Choice Scarf, doesn't mean that he's not a threat.
Players who are aware of Ditto's most common set would refrain from setting up. Ditto only has to be alive to stop the opposing team from setting up their would-be sweepers. And then here lies the tricky part; you can bluff a scarf. You can trick your opponent into thinking Ditto is scarfed because most of them are. In fact, just seeing a Ditto, your enemy would probably automatically assume it's scarfed (I certainly would). Switch Ditto in onto something fast and strong (like say M-Lucario) and unless they want to kiss their M-Lucario goodbye, they'll most likely switch out to something that resists fighting, thinking that your Ditto is scarfed. This free turn can be used for anything, you can even use Nasty Plot yourself to give your opponent a rude awakening when they realize that your Ditto isn't actually scarfed. The thing about Ditto is that you can really play some devious mind games with it. A choice scarf by far provides the most utility to Ditto, but it's also extremely predictable. It's so predictable that most people wouldn't think of the other possible items that Ditto can hold. This "flaw" of Ditto has a silver lining to it. The more predictable you are, the more easy it is to deceive your enemy.
Edit: Scratch that stuff about Sticky Web, Ditto doesn't even care about that.
After perusing this definition, I'd say Ditto does NOT belong in C rank. I think he should be pushed up to B- or maybe even B rank. To fulfill his job, Ditto needs only the field to be clear of Sticky Web. That's it. While he'd appreciate it if other hazards are also clear, Ditto is not severely crippled by the other entry hazards. His "crippling flaw" is that he has low HP (not really relevant if he's acting as a revenge killer), is predictable (that he is), and that he's useless against stall teams. How many hard stall teams do you encounter? I'd imagine not many. The vast majority of teams you encounter are going to be more offensively oriented. And against the few stall teams you encounter, Ditto still won't be complete dead weight. It really depends on the Pokemon Ditto copies.
Ditto has a unique niche in that he completely shuts down set-up sweepers (but not set-up tanks). Ditto cannot be "eclipsed" by any pokemon because no pokemon can do what Ditto does. Ditto's mere existence in a team discourages M-Lucario, Gyrados w/o sub, Dragonite, and a whole other slew of pokemon from setting up. The only thing that can foil Ditto in doing his job is substitute and Sticky Web (which would cause Ditto to speed-tie with the copied target). Sticky Web has a very limited distribution and pile that on top of the fact that removing hazards isn't that hard, supporting Ditto shouldn't be too much of a problem.
While Ditto discourages set-up sweepers, he also acts as a potent revenge killer. As long as the target isn't holding a choice scarf and doesn't resist it's own moveset, Ditto can revenge kill them. Ditto may be super predictable, but so are some other pokemon like Rotom-W. His moveset is almost always Volt Switch/Hydro Pump/Will-O-Wisp/ and a fourth move. The only thing that I'm uncertain about Rotom-W is his fourth move. And even then, I have an idea what his fourth move is. It's either Thunderbolt, Trick, Pain Split or Rest. Still, I know for certain that almost every Rotom-W encountered will have Volt Switch, Hydro Pump, and Will-O-Wisp. That's 75% of its moveset right there. Even knowing this, Rotom-W is still a force to be reckoned with. Same goes for Ditto. Just because his moveset consists of only one move (Transform) and that he'll usually be holding a Choice Scarf, doesn't mean that he's not a threat.
Players who are aware of Ditto's most common set would refrain from setting up. Ditto only has to be alive to stop the opposing team from setting up their would-be sweepers. And then here lies the tricky part; you can bluff a scarf. You can trick your opponent into thinking Ditto is scarfed because most of them are. In fact, just seeing a Ditto, your enemy would probably automatically assume it's scarfed (I certainly would). Switch Ditto in onto something fast and strong (like say M-Lucario) and unless they want to kiss their M-Lucario goodbye, they'll most likely switch out to something that resists fighting, thinking that your Ditto is scarfed. This free turn can be used for anything, you can even use Nasty Plot yourself to give your opponent a rude awakening when they realize that your Ditto isn't actually scarfed. The thing about Ditto is that you can really play some devious mind games with it. A choice scarf by far provides the most utility to Ditto, but it's also extremely predictable. It's so predictable that most people wouldn't think of the other possible items that Ditto can hold. This "flaw" of Ditto has a silver lining to it. The more predictable you are, the more easy it is to deceive your enemy.
Edit: Scratch that stuff about Sticky Web, Ditto doesn't even care about that.
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Actually, ditto doesn't need sticky web gone. The speed gets dropped THEN it transforms, thus losing the speed drop, meaning it couldn't care less about it.
I argued the same thing as you a few pages back, but nobody really cared: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-viability-ranking-thread.3495992/page-40#post-5118482
There's a lot of stupid people on the ladder these days, just setting up, forgetting about ditto. Here's an example of one at 2100 on the ladder (I don't even use a mega): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-75246188
alphatron
Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
I have to be honest here. I didn't know that there were still people who attempted to set up on opponents when they clearly saw a ditto in team preview. You only do that when you possess a counter / check to your own setup sweeper. Running into teams like that makes ditto's life a little harder at times because your opponent won't care about shift gear genesect being copied when they have a heatran or something. But even then ditto forces the sweeper out, keeping you from getting swept yourself.
Then again, I don't have much faith in the showdown player base until you reach 2300+ or so. Good thing the ladder was reset recently.
Then again, I don't have much faith in the showdown player base until you reach 2300+ or so. Good thing the ladder was reset recently.
Been using Volcarona for a while now and I'm nominating it for B rank. While Azumarill, Talonflame, Tyranitar, are everywhere and Mega Pinsir is kind of common one would ask why you would use this in OU but Volcarona is still pretty deadly. I've been using a bulky QD set with a Coba Berry that allows it to live a Brave Bird from Talonflame while Volcarona OHKO's back with Hidden Power Rock. Azumarill and Tyranitar are still a problem but you can pair it up with Dugtrio for the latter and not to mention Azumarill still risks being burned if it revenge kills Volcarona. His ability can really be useful at times and even turn the tables on a match. Stealth Rock is a problem but they are easier to remove this gen with Defog and Excadrill coming down. It also gets gains a resist this gen to Fairy.
Also Deoxys-S really does not deserve S rank. If it wasn't for Defog being buffed this gen I would agree but hazards are just very easy to remove this gen. It also has sub par attacking stats and is rather frail. Amazing speed stat but priority is everywhere (Suckerpunch, Extremespeed, Shadow Sneak and more) so it doesn't mean much. I also disagree about Mega Venusaur in S rank. Never had problems with it and I have faced it plenty of times. Sure it can be annoying but it can't do much damage back and it can be set up on and 2HKO'd from there don't even need a Flying or Psychic move to deal with it. I agree about the rest in S rank though.
Also Deoxys-S really does not deserve S rank. If it wasn't for Defog being buffed this gen I would agree but hazards are just very easy to remove this gen. It also has sub par attacking stats and is rather frail. Amazing speed stat but priority is everywhere (Suckerpunch, Extremespeed, Shadow Sneak and more) so it doesn't mean much. I also disagree about Mega Venusaur in S rank. Never had problems with it and I have faced it plenty of times. Sure it can be annoying but it can't do much damage back and it can be set up on and 2HKO'd from there don't even need a Flying or Psychic move to deal with it. I agree about the rest in S rank though.
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I'm gonna have some fun and explain why Deoxys-S and Mega Venusaur are completely deserving of their ranking, considering I use a team utilizing both of them before.
Ice Beam and Taunt go an astoundingly long way. Ice Beam beats most of the common defoggers like Mandibuzz while Taunt shuts it down entirely, as well as preventing the opposition from doing other things like their own hazards afterwards or trying to Roost damage off.
Ever face a Life Orb set with the ability to 2HKO almost anything it hits Super-Effectively? Psycho Boost, Superpower, Fire Punch, Ice Beam is one of the hardest combos to switch into. Even then, most Pokemon are Physically Defensive and will still take massive damage. That Physically bulky Rotom-W you have? Yeah...I hope you can Wish Pass. That Tyranitar? It's dead thanks to Superpower.
Sucker Punch? Once you figure out that this Deoxys-S is built to set hazards up, you're REALLY going to Sucker Punch it? Even IF you decide to use Priority, what about Magic Coat? Sableye's Will-O-Wisp is now bounced and you had better have a cleric...it can't take hits as well anymore. Those Spikes from Klefki? You just set up for your opponent congratulations. You also forget about Focus Sash, the other of the best items on it. EVEN then, that Genesect better be one with ExtremeSpeed or that Fire Punch is knocking it out, because there is no Choice Scarf Genesect that can outspeed Naive 252 Speed EV Deoxys-S. If your Genesect has been scouted, Deoxys-S can potentially Revenge Kill it once its job is done. No Deoxys-S is going to stay in on a threat it knows it can't handle anyways; that's just common sense.
...this oughta be good...
Protip: That's not an argument. It's an ignorant statement. If you're going to stand by that regardless, ladder more.
I had to break this sentence up...I think I'd bash you far too much if I didn't. Have you seen the calcs? It doesn't need to do much direct damage. Leech Seed combined with Sleep Powder goes a long way when combined with Giga Drain/Sludge Bomb. Mega Venusaur is the epitome of Stall; without it, I doubt stall would be as viable as it is.
You really want to think that, don't you? You might be blown away when you realize that only the strongest moves have a chance of 2HKOing Mega Venusaur...that's if you switch in and AVOID the Sleep Powder then the Leech Seed. What if you have a threat you thought could be good and let it stay in? Oh look at this...somehow that Venusaur carries Block and you've been killed. GG.
There are legitimate reasons why specific Pokemon are S-Rank. If you're going to put your two cents on the plate, the first thing you need to do is give actual proof as to why a Pokemon isn't worthy of this ranking. The second is to reason and show that the proof is vital, important, and enough to show its flaws. You did neither of these and all it sounded like was a comment every member and their mothers have disected and ranted at before yours. I also don't think you understand the concept of S-Rank.
...says nothing about invincible Pokemon. Every Pokemon has flaws, but these two are examples of Pokemon that have few true flaws and their strengths are so strong that they are completely migitated. Deoxys-S has the movepool filled with options and Mega Venusaur has a great movepool and the stats, ability, and typing to pull it off. S-Rank doesn't COMPLETELY mean Suspect Test worthy. If there ARE Suspect Tests, the Tests will be on Pokemon in that rank, but not all fo them.OU Viability Thread said:
So...refine and return. That's about all I can say.
As for anything else to add, I'm surprised that a couple people feel the same way about Hydreigon. I tested slightly more, but came up with no more evidence suggesting higher than B+ yet. I'll return with more news at some point.
Nice arguments. I admit Deoxys-S is not easy to play around considering the bunch of move sets it can run, you're actually almost changing my mind about it. As for Mega Venusaur it's a great Pokemon but S rank is really pushing it IMO you act like it can Leech Seed anything when it can't or put to sleep anything when it can't. It's defensive stats aren't that amazing, cannot hold Leftovers, uses up the Mega slot for your team, not hard to 2HKO I can list a ton of Pokemon that can 2HKO it or OHKO It's not even funny. becomes set up fodder for Substitute users, Spikers such as Ferrothorn, It also suffers from 4 move slot syndrome. There's probably other stuff I missed mentioning.
Deoxys-S was my very first Deoxys Forme and it's since been my favorite. Any time I could run it, I did to much success. I didn't even scrape the iceberg of what Deoxys-S can do. Dual Screens, ScarfTrick, Rain Setter (though personally, I find this better done by Thundurus-I or Tornadus-I), and quite a few roles thanks to its enormous movepool.
As for Mega Venusaur, many people have brought up 4MSS, but this can be used to an advantage. Absolutely nobody will know EVERYTHING on Mega Venusaur, so it forces them to scout it, which means that you can predict what they'll do. Find them trying to Protect? Switch the check of that Pokemon in and proceed to set-up. Figure they'll throw a Grass-Type in? Nothing Scizor and Genesect can't handle! Deoxys-S is much the same, but you can usually figure out Mega Venusaur's typical 8: Leech Seed, Sleep Powder, Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb, Substitute, Synthesis, Earthquake, and Hidden Power Fire. Find the four and pick the Pokemon best suited to taking it out. Deoxys-S...good luck properly scouting it.
Stall Pokemon require two distinct details: Good Defenses and the right Movepool consisting of status and a form of healing. The rest go for a specific role and even the healing can be glanced over with Stall Thundurus-I. Mega Venusaur has the qualities and a great typing to go with it. It walls significant portions of the metagame and doesn't require much support to do so (though any support is appreciated by any and all Pokemon). It could either stall or use its attack stats to their advantages. These qualities match up well to the S-Rank requirements, which is why it's there.
alphatron
Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
Feel free to list the ton of Pokemon who can 2hko or ohko it anytime. Feel free to list the multitude of Pokemon who can set up subs in front of it too. Once again, 4MSS is not a negative thing. It simply means the Pokemon has many viable options.
noo kids, the focus sash sets and white herb sets are not good, but they are the best things for this bad pokemon.
lets just say, after a shell smash, cloyster fears psyical moves again. It praticlly needs those items to survive. and that extreamly low hp and spdef isnt helping it at all. Tbh due to things like mamoswine and rotom w becoming more common, and new pokemon sush as aegislash, there is too much cloyster fails to OHKO and is easily revenged. Due to the fect it cant OHKO lucario at +2 if memory serves, its setup bait to mega lucario, whch can just nasty polt in your face GG game over. Heck, Cloyster cant even set up at all if realying on a boosting item. After its shell smash its easy to kill and if it doesnt die common priority users such as mega luc and aegislash. Due to theses flaws, and the fact you have litte reason to use cloyster over other sweepers bar its sash and sub removal (which normally get it killed next turn anyway), i think it deserves C. Jog on if you think its worthy of A rank, it is not very consistent...
List of Pokemon that pretty much always come out on top against it:
Latios
Latias
Choice Band Talonflame
Choice Band Victini
Mega Pinsir
Kyurem-B with or without Sub
LO Excadrill
Reuniclus
Alakazam
Deoxys-S
Heatran with or without Taunt
DD Mega Tyranitar with or without Taunt
DD Mega Charizard X
Gliscor with Taunt
Togekiss
Espeon
Xatu
Mega Charizard Y
Mew
Sub Disable/ Taunt Gengar
Sub Roost Pressure Kyurem
Volcarona with or without Sub
Celebi
And a lot more.. not to mention since Venusaur is a wall it doesn't do much damage in return.
That being said Mega Venusaur is a great Pokemon because it can still take on a lot of attackers and Leech Seed if your opponent lacks a grass type or it's dead but S-rank is too high of a rank for it. A rank is like the perfect fit for it and I'm not changing my mind.
Latios
Latias
Choice Band Talonflame
Choice Band Victini
Mega Pinsir
Kyurem-B with or without Sub
LO Excadrill
Reuniclus
Alakazam
Deoxys-S
Heatran with or without Taunt
DD Mega Tyranitar with or without Taunt
DD Mega Charizard X
Gliscor with Taunt
Togekiss
Espeon
Xatu
Mega Charizard Y
Mew
Sub Disable/ Taunt Gengar
Sub Roost Pressure Kyurem
Volcarona with or without Sub
Celebi
And a lot more.. not to mention since Venusaur is a wall it doesn't do much damage in return.
That being said Mega Venusaur is a great Pokemon because it can still take on a lot of attackers and Leech Seed if your opponent lacks a grass type or it's dead but S-rank is too high of a rank for it. A rank is like the perfect fit for it and I'm not changing my mind.
Those pokemon come out ahead of it... and ONLY those pokemon, that's why it's so good. Honestly I could make a case against quite a few of these but even taking this list for granted, between it and other pokemon like Heatran and Chansey you can stop the vast majority of those. The OP states that a pokemon which can wall SIGNIFICANT portions of the meta-game is worthy of S-rank. Just because M-venusaur can't wall literally EVERY pokemon in the meta doesn't mean it hasn't earned that rank.
no. no noo no no no.Mega Zard Y , thanks to sludge bomb or leech seed doesnt enjoy switching in for 1 and cant even OHKO. Banded victini struggles as its fire moves are not even super effective (thick fat) and the v create draw back annoys it. Victini is rare in OU anyway. LO excdrill cant do much at all and gets seeded, DD mega ttar doesnt enjoy giga drain sukcking its HP, infact most of these pokemom cant switch in to leech seed as it hinders them greatly. oh, and celib hates suldge bomb. Ill give you Lati@s, Kyurem B, talon, ala and gliscor with taunt and xatu, but thats it really. They really dont enjoy switchng in either. Of corse Venu is worthy of S, its versitile and Walls an extremly large portion of the ladder with little suport.
252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 149-177 (40.9 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 136-162 (37.5 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Excadrill doesn't even beat the most common variant of Mega-Venusaur. What are you talking about?
Also I think you expect far too much from Mega-Venusaur. 80 / 123 / 120 with reliable recovery and good defensive typing is amazing, and 122 Special Attack is actually crazy for a wall to have. How many of those "Mega-Venusaur responses" would not mind switching into Mega-Venusaur's unresisted STABs, let alone do so more than once? 80 Speed is not even slow for a wall: -Spe natured Mega-Venu still outspeeds 0 Spe Skarmory.
Leech Seed is only part of the equation. Despite having access to a wide variety of useful moves, Mega-Venu doesn't actually have 4MSS. So long as you have Synthesis, any combination of Sludge Bomb, Giga Drain, Sleep Powder, Earthquake, Leech Seed, or even Roar, and Mega-Venu will still be doing its job wonderfully. I think the problem is that the Mega-Venusaurs you faced / used keep spamming Leech Seed on the switch instead of say, hitting the switch with a 90 base power STAB move off 122 Special Attack that can induce poison, which would likely prevent or deter them from doing it again.
Mega-Venusaur is damn simple to use, brings great rewards with little risk, takes on a myriad of threats singlehandedly (how many Grass-types do you know can beat Ferrothorn and Goodra one-on-one?), and is easily customizable to the team's needs. S-Rank up the wazoo, baby.
Edit: and now for your "responses", provided Sleep Powder has already been used.
Latios: need Psychic moves to actually do anything lest Venusaur stall it out. Even Trick doesn't work, and Sludge Bomb hurts.
Latias: If Venusaur has Roar, Latias isn't getting anywhere. Sludge Bomb and Leech Seed will prove annoying as well.
Choice Band Talonflame: Sludge Bomb wrecks it on the switch, but does force it out.
Choice Band Victini: Earthquake gets it as well as Sludge Bomb. Forces it out too.
Mega Pinsir: Sludge Bomb, force out.
Kyurem-B with or without Sub: Sludge Bomb is taken relatively well, but poison will be annoying.
LO Excadrill: outright loses to physically defensive Venusaur.
Reuniclus: Sludge Bomb still hurts, but at least it's immune to residual damage. Being slower can be bad though.
Alakazam: same as Reuniclus, but trades bulk for speed.
Deoxys-S: Sludge Bomb, force out.
Heatran with or without Taunt: Earthquake.
DD Mega Tyranitar with or without Taunt: What? Those powerful Giga Drains & Earthquakes will take you down before you can get strong enough o do the same.
DD Mega Charizard X: Sludge Bomb (EQ if already Mega'd), force out.
Gliscor with Taunt: Giga Drain beats Gliscor one-on-one. Hell, Mega-Venusaur is a Gliscor counter.
Togekiss: Sludge Bomb ouch.
Espeon: Anything ouch.
Xatu: Sludge Bomb ouch.
Mega Charizard Y: Sludge Bomb, force out.
Mew: like Kyurem-B, favorable but poison hurts.
Sub Disable/ Taunt Gengar: I'll give you this one, but Leech Seed is still annoying.
Sub Roost Pressure Kyurem: Poison and Leech Seed hurt its staying power. Also there's Roar.
Volcarona with or without Sub: Same as SubRoost Kyurem.
Celebi: Sludge Bomb ouch.
Yeah, almost none of them can do this over and over.
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alphatron
Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
Volcorona isn't bulky either, but focus sash has never been suggested as a potential item to help it setup or sweep. The same goes for white herb. I have no idea why white herb ever caught on. You aren't baton passing anything. And if your intention is to sweep your opponents team with speed and power, then why are you worried about your defenses? In forth and fifth gen, was SD+White Herb Lucario ever a viable set? Did players ever sit there and think, "Hmm...I don't want close combat to drop my defenses...I know! I'll run white herb!"
A bad set cannot be justified. We don't judge aegislash by talking about how Sd/king's shield is yesterday's news. I don't see why we're judging Cloyster based on a weak set with no boosting item that intends to set up and...do some damage to one Pokemon. I get that Cloyster has its issues. C rank makes sense. But mentioning its worse set is not how you argue them. The analysis page for Cloyster in B/W doesn't mention either white herb OR focus sash. Neither should we.
A bad set cannot be justified. We don't judge aegislash by talking about how Sd/king's shield is yesterday's news. I don't see why we're judging Cloyster based on a weak set with no boosting item that intends to set up and...do some damage to one Pokemon. I get that Cloyster has its issues. C rank makes sense. But mentioning its worse set is not how you argue them. The analysis page for Cloyster in B/W doesn't mention either white herb OR focus sash. Neither should we.
The point is, chesnaught does not exactly need spikes to be successful, it is one of the most unique pokemon in the entire meta anyway(although not the most useful), and spikes are not particular effective in some scenario this gen. Really, it is unique enough to be run without spikes, though admitably spikes does provide it extra niche.
I think the reason Mega Venusaur is S-rank is simply because of the meta around it. It is offensive, yet not offensive enough to overpower mega venusaur. This is the perfect environment for it. Mega Venusaur struggles against stall, simply because its moves don't do enough damage, and leech seed isn't annoying enough to stall teams which have plenty of recovery, ways to get rid of hazards, a cleric, etc... However, that's hardly relevant, since something like 2% of the teams out there are stall. In the meta, mega venusaur has a lot of staying power and can do just enough damage to prevent total set up, and can do it against many threats. This makes it S-rank (I'm okay with it being S, but I wouldn't mind it in A+)
Even as a wall I do have some difficulty having mega-Venusaur at S, its neutral defensive coverage is great, but the defensive stats simply feels a little lack luster being 80/12X/12X, while common threats in S rank possess offensive stats as high as 140s and 150s. This especially when it lacks a leftover which is equivalent to 6.25% extra health for extra turn you stays, and the fact that you resist so pitiful amount of things.(the combination of the five resist is not exactly great tbh, most top threats manage to get aside it rather easily) So in terms of sheer defensive stats it is actually INFERIOR to many existing walls if we only count one side.
And in terms of walling ability, let's face it. While 123 SpA is not something to be underestimate, nor is it particularly threatening given uninvested, especially given the underwhelming SE coverage in its kit. Moreover, its ability to due passive damage is simply lackluster, lacking leftover really hurts you so much in the long term as you have to spam healings a lot more often, and it does not possess sufficient supporting movepool(with only leech seed) or extremely unique abilities like natural cure, harvest or regenerator. The only reason it is used is probably because it manages to deal with both sides at the same time. So overall I think it should stay at Rank A+. It does wall the majority of the meta, but does not wall them effectively.
You are however missing the case that most of these can leave some scars on it, and you have to spend extra turns to heal them instead of throwing out attacks, which can occasionally lose you crucial momentums. So after a few force out(which is not exactly uncommon), you have to start using synthesis on switch. You are also completely screwed by any burns(which does a solid 1/8 health instead of 1/16) so you are not going to switch into any scald/lava flume by anymean, even you don't care of them on paper.
Really, you are keeping the mindset that it has leftover, while it does not.
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Rotosect
Banned deucer.
I wasn't aware Mega Venusaur could run Sleep Powder, Sludge Bomb, Leech Seed, Roar, Earthquake and Giga Drain at the same time.
The thing is, even if you don't know Mega Venusaur's set it's not like facing a Mega Lucario or Aegislash where a wrong guess can cost you the match. You can easily force Megasaur to reveal its moves with intelligent play (such as using Substitute or switching between grass and steel types) and once you know what's running it becomes incredibly easy to take advantage of it.
The same can't be said about the other S-rank mons such as the aforementioned Mega Lucario and Aegislash because they can and will punish players who try to play too cautiously around them. You certainly don't want to give them a free Swords Dance/Nasty Plot on the switch, just like you don't want to give Genesect free U-Turn spamming and Deoxys-S free entry hazards, while the worst Megasaur can do is using Sleep Powder on a non-grass types as you switch out. Any self-respecting player should be carrying some sort of status absorber or at the very least a cleric anyway.
Also, "powerful" attacks? Give me a break, Megasaur needs to maximize its defensive stats to be able to do its intended job as a wall and without a boosting item or EV investiment those attacks are barely passable at best.
Were in the S rank description does it say the stats are the most important part?
Don't focus on it's stats and typing, but focus on the metagame around it. This pokemon walls, counters, and checks many, many relevant threats, including Azumarill, Mananphy, Rotom-W, extremely annoying Genesect, and heck, even it's supposed "counter" Heatran if countered Saur is running EQ or if 'Tran isn't carrying Lava Plume. That's of the top of my head, but I can keep going if you want.
The only support it needs to do it's job is a status absorber or cleric to handle it's problem with burns. Which yes, is support, but the S rank descriptions says "little support", not "no support", and status counters are finding their way onto many teams this gen anyway.
Edit: More threats it handles include...
Manaphy
Excadril
Greninja
Keldeo
Terrakion
Gyarados
MegaDos
Mamoswine
And Conkelderp
All of these off of the A rank list. I've even used it to handle Gengar before. It may need to be physically to handle some of them, but that doesn't change the fact that it can still potentially handle them.
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Wow. 80/123/120 is lackluster defense to you? Oh and sure, he might not have something like leftovers, but he's got reliable recovery in the form of Synthesis. He also has secondary ways of healing, via Leech Seed and Giga drain. Being a great wall is more than just about resisting stuff. Sure, you might think resisting only 5 types is little (which it isn't, lol), but what makes M-Venasuar so great is his lack of weaknesses. Thanks to thick fat, M-Venasaur has a whooping 2 weaknesses. Too many times have I seen players use Ice or Fire attacks on M-Vensaur, only for him to shrug it off with Synthesis. His only weaknesses are in Psychic and Flying, both types that are rarely used as coverage. That means all you need to do is keep him away from stuff that would obviously have a flying or psychic move (like Talonflame or Deoxys-S), and M-Venusaur can go to town on the rest of the team.
He's fast for a wall and he's got a great Sp.Attack stat for a wall. He has a good supportive move set. His typing is pretty darn good when paired up with his ability that eliminates 2 of his would-be weaknesses. His grass and poison typing makes him immune to things like Spore, Leech Seed, and Toxic. Seriously, he has NO glaring weaknesses. Maybe he can't wall the entire metagame, but he can wall a good portion of them with little outside support. Heck, he IS the support. M-Venusaur can take on monsters like M-Lucario, Genesect, and Azumarill.
Another thing, M-Venasaur can also be used as a tank. In fact, I actually prefer him as a tank. Sure, he can stall/phaze stuff out with leech seed/toxic/roar/synthesis or some other stall-ish set, but that wouldn't really utilize his great Sp.atk stat. Really, what makes him so great is that he hits hard, can take a hit, and can heal off the damage. Invested, M-Venusaur can 2-hit-KO a lot of relevant threats while they themselves fail to do so against M-Venusaur.
Its stats are great, but not great ENOUGH. Among the A rank list you given, you are assuming that they switch into you, but a more realistic scenario is you switch into them, take a hit, and they get something else out.
You are also assuming that we have rank A slot like we have mega slot, while it is perfectly possible that multiple of them are found on the same team, while you are like having 5mss to check them all before we take the EV issue into account.
You may use it as a main tank(which should be its prime job), but than it is not difficult to be forced out after some easy testing of your set, and it is used more like wall afterall.
Also, a cleric or status absorber is definitely not little support when you need it so desperately. As I said before, any burn induced hammers the ability of Venusaur to do its job. And it immediately becomes a set up folder for the steels it is suppose to check given that you have EQ under your belt. While other tanks can still lay down some EH or deal damage on the special side with their much better coverage.
80/123/120 don't outclasses any existing walls with significant margins if at all. It resoundingly walls many thing, but just stops them at 3HKO most of the time, and without the passive recovery from the leftover, many damage which was generally negligible easily stacks up. So even 4HKOs are not safe when you need extra turns to heal the thing off. It may sound like it has leech seed but that is never something you actually use. And giga drain can lose you trades in some scenario.
Also, cleric and status absorber are not "little support".
I agree that M-Venusaur may have been the best wall bar Lugia, but its flaws are still big enough to be exploit. That is why I put it at A+ instead of the might S.
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