Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[zachmac]

Its stats are great, but not great ENOUGH. Among the A rank list you given, you are assuming that they switch into you, but a more realistic scenario is you switch into them, take a hit, and they get something else out.

What I'm saying is that it stops those Pokemon from completely devastating your team. By this logic, everything outside of trappers are completely useless.

You are also assuming that we have rank A slot like we have mega slot, while it is perfectly possible that multiple of them are found on the same team, while you are like having 5mss to check them all before we take the EV issue into account.

All I was saying was that it can reliably counter/wall many relevant threats. A rank pokemon are generally relevant threats. What you're saying here really makes no sense to me.

You may use it as a main tank(which should be its prime job), but than it is not difficult to be forced out after some easy testing of your set, and it is used more like wall afterall.

That's just the nature of defense. You swap out a lot. It's not a sweeper, who need to stay in to finish up their job. It just keeps specific pokemon from ruining your team.

Also, a cleric or status absorber is definitely not little support when you need it so desperately. As I said before, any burn induced hammers the ability of Venusaur to do its job. And it immediately becomes a set up folder for the steels it is suppose to check given that you have EQ under your belt. While other tanks can still lay down some EH or deal damage on the special side with their much better coverage.

As I said, status support is on pretty much every team anyway. It's pretty much a staple in this generation, so having status support really isn't that big of a deal.

It may sound like it has leech seed but that is never something you actually use.

I guess all those times I've used it I've just been dreaming then.

I agree that M-Venusaur may have been the best wall bar Lugia, but its flaws are still big enough to be exploit. That is why I put it at A+ instead of the might S.

You know what you call an Pokemon who doesn't have weaknesses you can't exploit?

Nonexistent. Not even the mighty Ubers are invincible. Did burns stop Kanga from going Uber?

Synthesis is not a reliable recovery move. Tyranitar is fairly common, for starters, and you can't simply ask for the Sandstorm to go away before you have to use Synthesis and it only has 8 PP so it's easily stalled out.

I could argue against this, but I suppose that'd be theorymoning.

I'll just say this; from my personal experience as a Vensuaur fan, T-tar hasn't really gotten in Venusuar's way too much, especially since they pretty much never carry smooth stones.

 

[Punchshroom]

I wasn't aware Mega Venusaur could run Sleep Powder, Sludge Bomb, Leech Seed, Roar, Earthquake and Giga Drain at the same time.
The thing is, even if you don't know Mega Venusaur's set it's not like facing a Mega Lucario or Aegislash where a wrong guess can cost you the match. You can easily force Megasaur to reveal its moves with intelligent play (such as using Substitute or switching between grass and steel types) and once you know what's running it becomes incredibly easy to take advantage of it.

The same can't be said about the other S-rank mons such as the aforementioned Mega Lucario and Aegislash because they can and will punish players who try to play too cautiously around them. You certainly don't want to give them a free Swords Dance/Nasty Plot on the switch, just like you don't want to give Genesect free U-Turn spamming and Deoxys-S free entry hazards, while the worst Megasaur can do is using Sleep Powder on a non-grass types as you switch out. Any self-respecting player should be carrying some sort of status absorber or at the very least a cleric anyway.

Also, "powerful" attacks? Give me a break, Megasaur needs to maximize its defensive stats to be able to do its intended job as a wall and without a boosting item or EV investiment those attacks are barely passable at best.

Its moveset may not swing a matchup to the degree Lucario and Aegislash can, but it still limits what safely counters Venusaur. Earthquake means Venusaur throttles Heatran and beats Ferrothorn one-on-one; Giga Drain overwhelms Gliscor and of course smashes bulky Waters like Vaporeon, Manaphy, and Jellicent; Roar means you can't set up with stuff like Volcarona and Latias to overcome Venusaur. Oh and Sleep Powder too. Even if Mega-Venusaur is a defensive threat, it can still be a challenge to switch into.

You certainly don't want Mega-Venusaur outlasting whatever it is facing and either statusing it or just smacking it in the face with relatively strong attacks coming from a defensive Pokemon, kind of like a tank. That's what Mega-Venusaur does: take a hit or two from sweepers and retaliating with Sleep Powder or whatever attacks it sees fit, while healing back up to do it again and again. It can take on dangerous Pokemon like Lucario, Azumarill, Thundurus, Aegislash, Garchomp, Genesect and many others, then either stopping them with Sleep Powder, or go on a tankfest by alternating between Synthesis and an attack. This strategy, combined with Venusaur's bulk, power and lack of weaknesses, applies for a lot of Pokemon, allowing Venusaur to suffice against many Pokemon one-on-one. Psychic and Flying are rarely used as coverage options (if they are, you can bet it's because of Mega-Venusaur), meaning its only users are those with STAB, which make them easy to cover with usually just one teammate, like Tyranitar or Aegislash. This means Venusaur doesn't have to worry about super effective coverage, and that super effective attacks are basically telegraphed so Venusaur will rarely be caught off guard.

Oh, and uninvested 122 base Special Attack from a wall may not be much to you (keep in mind this is ~91 Special Attack, fully invested), but its attacks can still hurt a lot of offensive Pokemon for a good deal of damage. Defensive Pokemon may not take too much from that, but they won't penetrate Venusaur's defenses easily. Venusaur can handle most defensive Pokemon and still hurt offensive Pokemon enough to limit switch-ins.

Hell I'll ask you right now: name me some Pokemon that can switch into Mega-Venusaur and beat it one-on-one. This means that stuff like Ferrothorn, Gourgeist, Mandibuzz and Goodra can switch into Sleep Powder but cannot actually KO Venusaur and even lose to certain variants, do not qualify as a 'counter'. Most Pokemon that are immune to Sleep Powder cannot beat Venusaur, while those that threaten Venusaur can be put to sleep. This is ridiculously low-risk on the Venusaur user's part, which is one of the characteristics of an S-Rank.

I'm even going to invent a new motto for Mega-Venusaur: "Get slept, or get wrecked".

Edit:

Synthesis is not a reliable recovery move. Tyranitar is fairly common, for starters, and you can't simply ask for the Sandstorm to go away before you have to use Synthesis and it only has 8 PP so it's easily stalled out.

Easily stalled out? By what? How many Pokemon can afford to sit in front of Mega-Venusaur all day and not be at risk of status or an outright KO? Not to mention Venusaur threatens Tyranitar in its own right so it usually does not have to deal with Sandstorm for too long.

 

[Slayr231]

Synthesis is not a reliable recovery move. Tyranitar is fairly common, for starters, and you can't simply ask for the Sandstorm to go away before you have to use Synthesis and it only has 8 PP so it's easily stalled out.

True, but that's assuming the opponent is switching Tyranitar into Megasaur, which isn't recommended. Megasaur simply needs to use Giga Drain a few times until Tyranitar is gone, the sandstorm subsides, and we're back on track. The only problem is assault vest sets, which is what Leech Seed is for.

I think we're asking too much from the S-ranks. No pokemon is going to be perfect, each and every pokemon can be countered, but it's a matter of how they can be countered. Aegislash is easily taken down once you know what set it's running, but I don't see anyone arguing about it right now. Megasaur is a tank that doesn't require much, if any, team support to perform well. That's why it should be in S-rank.

 

[Photofluid]

What I'm saying is that it stops those Pokemon from completely devastating your team. By this logic, everything outside of trappers are completely useless.All I was saying was that it can reliably counter/wall many relevant threats. A rank pokemon are generally relevant threats. What you're saying here really makes no sense to me.That's just the nature of defense. You swap out a lot. It's not a sweeper, who need to stay in to finish up their job. It just keeps specific pokemon from ruining your team.As I said, status support is on pretty much every team anyway. It's pretty much a staple in this generation, so having status support really isn't that big of a deal. I guess all those times I've used it I've just been dreaming then.You know what you call an Pokemon who doesn't have weaknesses you can't exploit?

Nonexistent. Not even the mighty Ubers are invincible. Did burns stop Kanga from going Uber?I could argue against this, but I suppose that'd be theorymoning.

I'll just say this; from my personal experience as a Vensuaur fan, T-tar hasn't really gotten in Venusuar's way too much, especially since they pretty much never carry smooth stones.

That says, you can wall one thing from the enemy team with a given set, and you are open of being repeatingly worn down by another. And if you swap a lot, you know what? SR alone will give you a hard time.

Its moveset may not swing a matchup to the degree Lucario and Aegislash can, but it still limits what safely counters Venusaur. Earthquake means Venusaur throttles Heatran and beats Ferrothorn one-on-one; Giga Drain overwhelms Gliscor and of course smashes bulky Waters like Vaporeon, Manaphy, and Jellicent; Roar means you can't set up with stuff like Volcarona and Latias to overcome Venusaur. Oh and Sleep Powder too. Even if Mega-Venusaur is a defensive threat, it can still be a challenge to switch into.

You certainly don't want Mega-Venusaur outlasting whatever it is facing and either statusing it or just smacking it in the face with relatively strong attacks coming from a defensive Pokemon, kind of like a tank. That's what Mega-Venusaur does: take a hit or two from sweepers and retaliating with Sleep Powder or whatever attacks it sees fit, while healing back up to do it again and again. It can take on dangerous Pokemon like Lucario, Azumarill, Thundurus, Aegislash, Garchomp, Genesect and many others, then either stopping them with Sleep Powder, or go on a tankfest by alternating between Synthesis and an attack. This strategy, combined with Venusaur's bulk, power and lack of weaknesses, applies for a lot of Pokemon, allowing Venusaur to suffice against many Pokemon one-on-one. Psychic and Flying are rarely used as coverage options (if they are, you can bet it's because of Mega-Venusaur), meaning its only users are those with STAB, which make them easy to cover with usually just one teammate, like Tyranitar or Aegislash. This means Venusaur doesn't have to worry about super effective coverage, and that super effective attacks are basically telegraphed so Venusaur will rarely be caught off guard.

Oh, and uninvested 122 base Special Attack from a wall may not be much to you (keep in mind this is ~91 Special Attack, fully invested), but its attacks can still hurt a lot of offensive Pokemon for a good deal of damage. Defensive Pokemon may not take too much from that, but they won't penetrate Venusaur's defenses easily. Venusaur can handle most defensive Pokemon and still hurt offensive Pokemon enough to limit switch-ins.

Hell I'll ask you right now: name me some Pokemon that can switch into Mega-Venusaur and beat it one-on-one. This means that stuff like Ferrothorn, Gourgeist, Mandibuzz and Goodra can switch into Sleep Powder but cannot actually KO Venusaur and even lose to certain variants, do not qualify as a 'counter'. Most Pokemon that are immune to Sleep Powder cannot beat Venusaur, while those that threaten Venusaur can be put to sleep. This is ridiculously low-risk on the Venusaur user's part, which is one of the characteristics of an S-Rank.

I'm even going to invent a new motto for Mega-Venusaur: "Get slept, or get wrecked".

Edit:

Easily stalled out? By what? How many Pokemon can afford to sit in front of Mega-Venusaur all day and not be at risk of status or an outright KO? Not to mention Venusaur threatens Tyranitar in its own right so it usually does not have to deal with Sandstorm for too long.

I agree with the part of stopping dangerous sweepers, but than you need to heal the thing back as you don't have the passive healing. Which gives your opponent free turn.

Univested 122 SpA could be a lot, but only when it is backed up with good coverage, which you don't call one with grass/poison.

Megasaur does do a lot of things(sleep power, leech seed), but NOT AT THE SAME TIME, and the need to use synthesis frequently is something to be taken advantage of, and if the meta kinda slow down a bit(it should), an 8 pp move risk being stalled out.

Overall, don't get my meaning wrong, Megasaur DOES POSSESS SOME S QUALITY, but not sufficient to make an S, which is why I stop it at A+.

True, but that's assuming the opponent is switching Tyranitar into Megasaur, which isn't recommended. Megasaur simply needs to use Giga Drain a few times until Tyranitar is gone, the sandstorm subsides, and we're back on track. The only problem is assault vest sets, which is what Leech Seed is for.

I think we're asking too much from the S-ranks. No pokemon is going to be perfect, each and every pokemon can be countered, but it's a matter of how they can be countered. Aegislash is easily taken down once you know what set it's running, but I don't see anyone arguing about it right now. Megasaur is a tank that doesn't require much, if any, team support to perform well. That's why it should be in S-rank.

Well, concering Ttar, one strategy is to switch in and than immediately switch out, you takes like 37% health damage at most (min Spd invest, no AV), than you can punish Megasaur for having weakened synthesis for 5 turns, even worse for megasaur if it attempt to syn at that turn. The healing part can be cancelled out by sand storm.

For Aegislash, I am still assuming there are too many awful sets running around, will become a point of discussion after everyone realise how it works(I personally question its ability a bit).

 

[zachmac]

That says, you can wall one thing from the enemy team with a given set, and you are open of being repeatingly worn down by another. And if you swap a lot, you know what? SR alone will give you a hard time.

If only it could use Synthesis and force Azumaril or Rotom-W to swap out at the same time.

I agree with the part of stopping dangerous sweepers, but than you need to heal the thing back as you don't have the passive healing. Which gives your opponent free turn.

Ferrothorn and Heatran don't have instant recovery. I guess they can't wall either.

Megasaur does do a lot of things(sleep power, leech seed), but NOT AT THE SAME TIME, and the need to use synthesis frequently is something to be taken advantage of, and if the meta kinda slow down a bit(it should), an 8 pp move risk being stalled out.

All this means is that some pokemon counter it only some of the time. Heatran can only stop some Venusaurs, but isn't an all-purpose counter.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this actually an advantage? It has the fourth move slot syndrome, but that's not always a bad thing, you know. It just keeps the pokemon unpredictable, like Genesect or Mega Lucario.

I'm actually starting to see little point in this argument. A+ and S are almost the same thing, so it really doesn't make that much of a difference....but I can say, I won't be persuaded. I've used that thing, and it's not just something I can argue is an S rank, it's something that actually feels like an S rank. When I use it, it feels just so easy for it to get it's job done, and it's what I find myself putting into action the most.

 

[Punchshroom]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this actually an advantage? It has the fourth move slot syndrome, but that's not always a bad thing, you know. It just keeps the pokemon unpredictable, like Genesect or Mega Lucario.

4MSS is when a Pokemon needs more than 4 moves to do its job. Picture Shuckle, who wants, or rather needs Rest, Stealth Rock or Sticky Web, Toxic, Knock Off, and Encore. Without one of them, Shuckle has a very difficult time doing its job, which it already does.

Venusaur, and probably Genesect and Luacrio as well, do not suffer much from 4MSS. They can still do their jobs provided they carry that one or two crucial move(s), which does not decrease their efficiency even if they carry different moves for the remaining slots.

 

[zachmac]

Venusaur, and probably Genesect and Luacrio as well, do not suffer much from 4MSS. They can still do their jobs provided they carry that one or two crucial move(s), which does not decrease their efficiency even if they carry different moves for the remaining slots.

I've seen it be used to referring to things in which it is crucial and others in which they just can't decide.

But eh, same general idea.

 

[November Blue]

4MSS is when a Pokemon needs more than 4 moves to do its job. Picture Shuckle, who wants, or rather needs Rest, Stealth Rock or Sticky Web, Toxic, Knock Off, and Encore. Without one of them, Shuckle has a very difficult time doing its job, which it already does.

Venusaur, and probably Genesect and Luacrio as well, do not suffer much from 4MSS. They can still do their jobs provided they carry that one or two crucial move(s), which does not decrease their efficiency even if they carry different moves for the remaining slots.

This is an excellent point, well done.

Oh, and for all of the people saying that Synthesis is unreliable, I disagree. In my time using Mega Venusaur I've never run out of PP. Not once. Tyranitar's Sandstorm hampering Venusaur's healing? That's happened a grand total of one times, and it still didn't matter.

 

[Photofluid]

If only it could use Synthesis and force Azumaril or Rotom-W to swap out at the same time.Ferrothorn and Heatran don't have instant recovery. I guess they can't wall either. All this means is that some pokemon counter it only some of the time. Heatran can only stop some Venusaurs, but isn't an all-purpose counter.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this actually an advantage? It has the fourth move slot syndrome, but that's not always a bad thing, you know. It just keeps the pokemon unpredictable, like Genesect or Mega Lucario.

I'm actually starting to see little point in this argument. A+ and S are almost the same thing, so it really doesn't make that much of a difference....

You don't want to use your synthesis in such a predictable manner, really.

And let's not forget while instant recover is good, it does give your opponent free turns. Having it is as an option is great, completely relying on it is, well, not so great.

Concerning Ferrothron and Heatran, they possess so many resistances that can help them tank certain hits really well. And the leftover heal allows them to keep their momentum easily without giving out free turns. So that when they force out something, they don't need to waste the turn running synthesis but lay down some EH, etc.

Also, Megasaur does not exert that much pressure that one may want an all-purpose counter for it. Just keep it in check like other stuffs at A rank

The difference between A+ and S may not be that huge afterall, but if you ask whether or not Megasaur serves the same position with things like Genesect and Deoxys-S (Mega-Luke intentionally skipped), I am not so sure. (And Megasaur is literally useless against stall team like someone have pointed out)

4MSS is when a Pokemon needs more than 4 moves to do its job. Picture Shuckle, who wants, or rather needs Rest, Stealth Rock or Sticky Web, Toxic, Knock Off, and Encore. Without one of them, Shuckle has a very difficult time doing its job, which it already does.

Venusaur, and probably Genesect and Luacrio as well, do not suffer much from 4MSS. They can still do their jobs provided they carry that one or two crucial move(s), which does not decrease their efficiency even if they carry different moves for the remaining slots.

Yes, Venusaur does not need everything to work, but to work at an S-rank worthy level it needs this much. Lucario is enough a threat with just CC, and genesect is still creates all sort of troubles to everyone but bulky fire type. Both Lucario and Genesect only partially miss out like one or two pokemon with their forth move. But for Venusaur, well, every move missed and a whole branch of threats is freed.

 

[SergantGold]

Also, cleric and status absorber are not "little support".

Venusaur doesn't need either of those. it is (generally) immune to the two statuses that would hurt it (sleep and toxic), and if it has Giga Drain and Synthesis or Giga, Synthesis, and leech seed on almost every set, and it has 80/123/120 bulk to back it up, it does NOT need a cleric/wish passer

even if it did need a cleric, Sylveon isn't that hard to use or fit into a team. Fairy is a good defensive typing due to both its weaknesses providing poor coverage, and sylveon is no slouch offensively with STAB Pixelate Hyper Voice coming off of 110 SpA. it hurts even uninvested.

 

[Numera]

This crap about meag venu is getting crazy...

People are asking way too much from S rank . No pokemon is perfect. What makes mega venu S is that it walls a singificant portion of the meta, it needs very little-no support, is versitile and all of its flaws (as little as they are) are more than made up for by its pros. Its that simple.

I think the misconseption is some people think S=OP instant suspect test. not the case. Just because Suspects CAN come from S, it doesnt mean every pokemon in S is OP and needs a suspect test. for the record, btw mega venu is not op but crazy good and worthy of S rank.

mega venu says this

 

[Lazybeef]

Mega venusaur is definitely worthy of S-rank.

It basically makes stall a very viable playstyle, and it is by far the best defensive tank in XY OU. The fact that it is the only truly defensive mega makes it so that megasaur doesn't have to compete with other megas for a team slot. It can wall a significant portion of the metagame, it needs little support to do so and it flaws are thoroughly mitigated by its substantial strengths. It clearly falls into S-rank as a defensive threat.

I also think that some people are unfair when comparing megasaur to other S-ranks. The ranks doesn't distinguish between offensive and defensive threats. Of course it needs teammates to deal with pokemon it cannot wall, but that is true for ANY defensive pokemon, so should S-rank be an offensive-only rank? Megasaur likes anti-hazard and cleric support but it doesn't require it to work. Genesect also appreciates anti-hazard support, probably more than megasaur because of how it so often goes in and out, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be S-rank.

The only real flaw that megasaur has is the fact that is doesn't have leftovers, but that is thoroughly mitigated by leech seed, giga drain and synthesis. Not to mention the sheer bulk that thing has.

 

[myw]

I can't really say too much about ranking it, but every time I hear people complaining Msaur doesn't hit back hard or take hits well I cringe.

It has 122 special attack. That is high enough that on non mega you could consider a revenge scarfer.

Its got the power beat anything that doesn't resist it, outside of walls.
Plus, on offensive variants, it chooses its counters- hp fire eats the metal bugs alive, and earthquake kills heatran.

Defensively, well, Its bulkier than Rotom and resists fighting, fairy, water. No need to say more there.

 

[Rotosect]

This crap about meag venu is getting crazy...

People are asking way too much from S rank . No pokemon is perfect. What makes mega venu S is that it walls a singificant portion of the meta, it needs very little-no support, is versitile and all of its flaws (as little as they are) are more than made up for by its pros. Its that simple.

I think the misconseption is some people think S=OP instant suspect test. not the case. Just because Suspects CAN come from S, it doesnt mean every pokemon in S is OP and needs a suspect test. for the record, btw mega venu is not op but crazy good and worthy of S rank.

But all these claims are simply not true as we've been saying for days. Burn/Paralysis cripple it so it needs cleric support, residual damage even from SR+1 layer of Spikes (which are ridiculously easy to get down thanks to Deoxys-S) are enough to turn many 3HKO's into 2HKO's so it absolutely needs spin/Defog support, it sure as hell doesn't wall powerful threats such as Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Alakazam and Kyurem-B and it's not that versatile given its viable movepool is made of 8 moves or so and can't hold items.

We're not asking "too much" from the S-rank, we're simply pointing out the huge discrepancy between Mega Venusaur and the other S-rank pokemon. Jirachi in BW was very close to the S-ranks and yet it never made it there despite relatively minor flaws. Hell, even Extremekiller Arceus was dropped from the S-rank in ubers. Surely you're not telling me that Mega Venusaur is metagame-defining as these pokemon were in their respective metagames?

 

[alphatron]

Since when did paralysis cripple a wall? If you paralyze mega venusaur, I'm not sure if anybody is going to rush to their team cleric to cure it. A common tactic in previous gens was to let your wall get paralyzed when you saw that your opponent was going for a thunder wave because speed didn't matter that much to you.

 

[Lazybeef]

Jirachi in BW was very close to the S-ranks and yet it never made it there despite relatively minor flaws.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-ou-viability-ranking-thread.3473637/

 

[Magnemite]

But all these claims are simply not true as we've been saying for days. Burn/Paralysis cripple it so it needs cleric support, residual damage even from SR+1 layer of Spikes (which are ridiculously easy to get down thanks to Deoxys-S) are enough to turn many 3HKO's into 2HKO's so it absolutely needs spin/Defog support, it sure as hell doesn't wall powerful threats such as Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Alakazam and Kyurem-B and it's not that versatile given its viable movepool is made of 8 moves or so and can't hold items.

We're not asking "too much" from the S-rank, we're simply pointing out the huge discrepancy between Mega Venusaur and the other S-rank pokemon. Jirachi in BW was very close to the S-ranks and yet it never made it there despite relatively minor flaws. Hell, even Extremekiller Arceus was dropped from the S-rank in ubers. Surely you're not telling me that Mega Venusaur is metagame-defining as these pokemon were in their respective metagames?

You do realize that the first paragraph of your post is applies to just about every Pokemon in OU? What Pokemon doesn't mind hazards at all, can wall every Pokemon in the metagame, doesn't care at all about any status ailments at all, and can run almost every move it would ever want? Not even Magic Guard Lugia could do all of that. Seriously, can your standards be any higher? Your point about about status is particularly absurd because Mega Venusaur minds status far less than any other S-rank Pokemon. Can you really say that it is crippled by burn and paralysis more than Genesect or Mega Lucario? Give me a break.

 

[Anty]

But all these claims are simply not true as we've been saying for days. Burn/Paralysis cripple it so it needs cleric support, residual damage even from SR+1 layer of Spikes (which are ridiculously easy to get down thanks to Deoxys-S) are enough to turn many 3HKO's into 2HKO's so it absolutely needs spin/Defog support, it sure as hell doesn't wall powerful threats such as Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Alakazam and Kyurem-B and it's not that versatile given its viable movepool is made of 8 moves or so and can't hold items.

We're not asking "too much" from the S-rank, we're simply pointing out the huge discrepancy between Mega Venusaur and the other S-rank pokemon. Jirachi in BW was very close to the S-ranks and yet it never made it there despite relatively minor flaws. Hell, even Extremekiller Arceus was dropped from the S-rank in ubers. Surely you're not telling me that Mega Venusaur is metagame-defining as these pokemon were in their respective metagames?

I've said this before, 'oh, its neutrel to stealth rocks, takes damage from spikes, some statuses work on it, this means it is a bad wall'. Lots of things take hazard damage, it doesnt mean there not effective, we have already stated that it can easily get its health back by leech seed/synthesis/giga drain and a good team can easily defog/spin hazards away. Your saying its weak to statuses, it is imune to poison and mostly sleep. No wall likes to be burned, but venusaur can easily live with it, if rotom-w can burn it, does that mean rotom-w is a check, no, rotom-w cannot do anything to gastrodon apart from burn it and gastrodon barely cares as it recovers of the damage.

'it sure as hell doesn't wall powerful threats such as Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Alakazam and Kyurem-B' apparantly only walling most of the tier but not the pokemon who have super effective STABs on it makes it bad. I usually switch venu in on a talonflame hoping to wall it, its not like i have any other walls that can deal with majour threats.

'We're not asking "too much" from the S-rank'
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support
Your right we're not. Venusaur walls significant portions of the metagame with little support. That makes venusaur s-rank, thanks for clearing that up for me.

 

[Numera]

But all these claims are simply not true as we've been saying for days. Burn/Paralysis cripple it so it needs cleric support, residual damage even from SR+1 layer of Spikes (which are ridiculously easy to get down thanks to Deoxys-S) are enough to turn many 3HKO's into 2HKO's so it absolutely needs spin/Defog support, it sure as hell doesn't wall powerful threats such as Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Alakazam and Kyurem-B and it's not that versatile given its viable movepool is made of 8 moves or so and can't hold items.

We're not asking "too much" from the S-rank, we're simply pointing out the huge discrepancy between Mega Venusaur and the other S-rank pokemon. Jirachi in BW was very close to the S-ranks and yet it never made it there despite relatively minor flaws. Hell, even Extremekiller Arceus was dropped from the S-rank in ubers. Surely you're not telling me that Mega Venusaur is metagame-defining as these pokemon were in their respective metagames?

first you tell me something that appliess to every pokemon as a problem for mega venu and then you tell me youre not asking for too much. Lair.

Mega Venu pretty much is the best staller we have ever had and has little flaws. Dont try comparing it to other things like extreme killer ceus that do differnt things. you also seem to me fogetting that its very hard to get all 3 layers of spikes up and there are such things as defoggers, which tbh i would not count as asuuport as everything benifits from hazard removal anyway. having 8 viable moves is very versitile, most have like 4 or 5.It walls sooo many other powerful threats btw. like i said its flaws are made up for. Cant beat Talon/kasam/pinsir? Thats OK, it already walls a shitone more.

Oh, and para doenst cripple venu and venu can just mass heal off the burn damage with leech seed and giga drain

By your logic everythng needs a cleric and nearly everthing needs defog. WOW. Apperntly you think S is impossible. you are asking for too much

 

[Ropeburn]

Wow seriously, are people still arguing about Mega Venusaur? What is the major malfunction? If anyone so much as mentions Mega Venusaur in this thread it rapidly spirals into a street fight. Anything that has been said about Venusuar has already been said; can we please get back to the thread?

 

[Ulevo]

To the guy saying that Mega Venusaur's defensive stats weren't very tanky, or not tanky enough, to give you an idea of how defensive it is, with 252/252 Bold, Venusaur is more physically defensive than a 0/0 Regirock or Steelix. With 252/252 Calm, it's more specially defensive than a 0/0 Regice. Add in the fact that it has 5 resistances, 1 immunity, and only 2 weaknesses.

Yeah, Venusaur is tanky.

 

[November Blue]

I suppose that Mega Venusaur might not seem S rank-worthy if you use it badly. I'm going to assume that all of the people desperately arguing against it either don't know what they're doing, or haven't used it. Therefore, their opinions aren't valid.

I know that I'm not a mod, but I want to lay down the law here and ask that this Mega Venusaur discussion stops. Let's just move onto other Pokemon, okay? This is clearly going nowhere; you've all descended into arguing over semantics and opinions, and nobody has posted any concrete arguments that MegaSaur should be dropped.

 

[Numera]

Novemebr bule i agree entierly (get it, enTIERly?)
I
Why not discuss mega pinsir? I f it were up to me id put it A as it is a consistent and effective sweeper, but requires some support.

 

[vonK]

I notice my favorite pokemon Crobat isn't on the list yet, maybe we could discuss his tiering? With the infiltrator, defog and poison buffs along with all these grass types like M-venusaur running around who a standard Taunt+BB crobat can actually take down, I think he's a solid choice this gen. His movepool is just diverse enough to give him a lot of options and taunt/infiltrator/Brave bird makes for a fantastic stall breaker. I'd say he's the best offensive defogger out there right now and although Skarm/Mandibuzz might have more endurance and Talonflame's BB is more threatening, none outclass Crobat due to his versatility. I think he's a solid B.

 

[RP2865]

Back to Chesnaught whom I was talking about a few pages back (whom i nominated for B+). The set of Spiky Shield, Leech Seed, Substitute, and EQ/Seed Bomb I mentioned was doubted, and I promised to give some replays. Here is one. Feel free to counter-argue.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-75469627
A: Chesnaught's leech seed allows me to stall out SS Cloyster
B: Chesnaught ends match by defeating Malamar 1 on 1 (which carried psycho cut btw)