Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Fuzznip]

Venusaur needs to be moved down to A+ rank. Being able to handle Mega Lucario was one of the biggest selling points to using Venusaur, and now that's it's not around it's certainly not S rank in my opinion. I just don't think Venusaur is metagame defining to be S rank material.

Rotom-W needs to be moved up to S rank. You can just slap Rotom-W on nearly any team and it will always do well, just because it checks so many dangerous threats like Talonflame and Pinsir. It also offers basically any team great utility in the form of Volt Switch and Will-O-Wisp. Right now, a big percentage of the metagame is all about removing / weakening Rotom-W for your Pinsir or Talonflame to sweep, and keeping Rotom-W healthy is often the difference between winning and losing a game.

That's all I really have to say so far about S / A rank Pokes.

I disagree with you about Mega Venusaur to be honest. It only handled Mega Lucario if it ran Earthquake, and it's not like that OHKOed it anyway. +2 Flash Cannon, on the other hand, still 2HKOed. Also, the fact that Genesect is banned too probably makes it better. It doesn't have to tank U-turns, boosted Flamethrowers, or allow Genesect to set up Shift Gear or whatever. Mega Venusaur still and will continue to wall the majority of the metagame with next to no direct support. It also has a gigantic support movepool to work with and great power and coverage for a wall. It's just one of those Pokemon that you can basically slap on a team and it will easily help you check and counter a slew of threats, while still hitting back hard and being a nuisance with Leech Seed and the like, so you're not losing any momentum. Therefore, it's S-rank in my opinion.

I also completely disagree with Rotom-W being in S-rank; I personally find it absurd to sit there. It's way too overrated and is getting too much attention for its ability to handle specific Pokemon, such as Mega Pinsir and Talonflame. I get that it can do this. I get that it can burn things with Will-O-Wisp. I get that it can maintain momentum with a Volt Switch. However, it's fairly easy to take advantage of with the likes of Substitute Kyurem-B, Clefable, the Latis, and even Suicune can set up on it. And hey, if you're saying that the departure of Mega Lucario made Mega Venusaur worse, than I can say the same with the departure of Genesect making Rotom-W worse (it was a great check to it). Also, it's not like it has access to reliable means of recovery (Pain Split only takes you so far), making it easy to wear down. I don't know, I just don't see it as such a meta-defining Pokemon unlike other Pokemon in S-rank. It should stay in A+ because it is really good, but I can't agree that it's this exceptional Pokemon that everyone needs to be afraid of.

 

[rachet67]

I think Regular Garchomp should be moved down to A rank. Both of its main stabs have a bounty of resists and immunities introduced this gen, that make it hard to run a scarf set. Outrage is now resisted by Aegislash and Azuramill, and by all the same pokes that have always resisted it. Garchomp has to be much more careful about throwing earthquake around since many of the best pokemon, talonflame, Mega-Pinsir, Landorus-I, and Thundurus-I are immune to it. SpD Venesaur has just enough bulk to take anything from the scarf set as long as stealth rock is gone, along with all the standard physical walls. The swords dance set can no longer just spam outrage due to mons like Azuramil, and has to deal with thundurus-I, which can outspeed it and OHKO. With Rotom-W as popular as it is now, it often finds itself burned.

 

[Jirachee]

Rotom-W needs to be moved up to S rank. You can just slap Rotom-W on nearly any team and it will always do well, just because it checks so many dangerous threats like Talonflame and Pinsir. It also offers basically any team great utility in the form of Volt Switch and Will-O-Wisp. Right now, a big percentage of the metagame is all about removing / weakening Rotom-W for your Pinsir or Talonflame to sweep, and keeping Rotom-W healthy is often the difference between winning and losing a game.

I disagree. Rotom-W is far from being that good. While it does indeed do well against Talonflame and Pinsir, two excellent Pokemon, Rotom-W just gets walked over by many other top tier threats, like Roost Charizard X, Mega Venusaur, or Sub Kyurem-B. It also doesn't do so well against threats like fast Belly Drum Azumarill which can otherwise stomp your team if they can get past your Water resists. It doesn't really fit the definition of an S rank Pokemon like it IMO, which is that it can wall a significant part of the metagame, even though what it walls is a set of very dangerous threats.

Also, can we nominate things from lower ranks for A+? I'm not sure...

 

[Soul Fly]

Move Char-Y down to A+
As much as it breaks my heart (Char-Y ultra boss) but it just cannot function without a lot of hazard control and offensive momentum. While it's damage output is enormous it utterly dependent on Skarmory (counterproductive on sun teams), lati@s and/or spinner, which often causes lategame crises once too many. 4x rocks weakness is something. While Roost does mitigate the issue it gives Char-Y a semi-annoying 4MSS (not allowing me to go perfect mixed) and more often than not forces it to give up free turns it gets against most of the meta, which is crucial to it's functioning as a nuclear wall breaker (and a crucial criterion for S-Rank). And please no comparisons to Pinsir-M or Volcarona (they both have more staying power with STAB pseudo-CB priority and speed boosting, respectively) because they are meant to be sweepers not wallbreakers. Completely different roles.

Move Rotom-W to S
The amount of shit it checks in this meta isn't even funny. It's job just got way easier with not getting worn down by U-Turn or trying to predict M-Luc sets.

On second thoughts I agree with Jirachee (kind of) but it's literally this close to being S-Rank material.

 

[Magcargo]

Mega Garchomp----> A- Rank
From my experience, Mega Garchomp has been a fairly underwhelming Pokemon compared to its base form. Its slower, making it vulnerable to threats such as Kyurem-B, Manaphy, Charizard X, and Landorus-I prior to any boost and the lack of Rough Skin prevents it from checking Pokemon such as Talonflame, Bisharp, and Scizor. Its inability to carry items such as Rocky Helmet and Lum Berry also limit its versatility. That being said, Mega Garchomp is second to none in terms of wallbreaking, making it no lower than an A- Rank Pokemon

These descriptions are somewhat rushed, so I'll try to edit them with a bit more information.
EDIT: I was unaware that we could not discuss Pokemon from lower rankings. Taking back the nominations for Deoxys-D and Mega Scizor.

 

[Baharoth]

When looking at the S and A rankings there is one poke that doesnt realy belong there imo and thats Deoxys-S. I am aware that it is arguably the best dedicated lead in the meta but, is that something that earns it an A+ ranking in the current meta? With Defog beeing everywhere and Aegisslash and Gengar beeing the only common spin blockers its so easy to remove hazards limiting the benefit of dedicated hazard setters. Having Deoxys on the team just makes it so incredibly obvious for the opponent what ur lead will be and it is easy to take it out before it can do much, Aegisslash deserves special mention here as his combination of shadow ball and shadow sneak can take out Deoxys while giving him just 1 turn to set up hazards after that its basicly 5 vs 6. I dont have much experience with Deoxys-S other sets so i dont want to judge them but i strongly feel like having a dedicated lead is more of a liability nowadays and because of that i think that A+ is a little to high. Depending on how good Deoxys-S other sets are it might be fine to keep it on A or A-.

 

[alexwolf]

I disagree. Rotom-W is far from being that good. While it does indeed do well against Talonflame and Pinsir, two excellent Pokemon, Rotom-W just gets walked over by many other top tier threats, like Roost Charizard X, Mega Venusaur, or Sub Kyurem-B. It also doesn't do so well against threats like fast Belly Drum Azumarill which can otherwise stomp your team if they can get past your Water resists. It doesn't really fit the definition of an S rank Pokemon like it IMO, which is that it can wall a significant part of the metagame, even though what it walls is a set of very dangerous threats.

Also, can we nominate things from lower ranks for A+? I'm not sure...

You can only talk about Pokemon in S and A+ ranks for now. If you want to nominate a Pokemon in lower ranks to be moved up, wait until we get to discuss those ranks.

 

[Srn]

Now I know I'm gonna get a bunch of hate for this, but Mega pinsir for A+
(oh boy here goes)

I've tried mega pinsir, a lot, and only like 10% of the time do I even get anything done with him. He's pretty frail and with a terrible bug/flying typing, it's super tough to even set up an SD. He can't even set up an SD on 70% of the meta without being totally crippled. He's tough to bring in, because you need to gaurantee rocks are off, otherwise you won't have enough HP to set up anything. 155 base attack with 199 bp moves with no drawbacks sounds great on paper, I admit, but it just didn't deliver to me. It was quite underwhelming and all of my other team members put in so much more work than he did. He's just tough to set up and tough to bring in.

But that's not where it ends. He has a ridiculous amount of offensive checks. Talonflame, Thundurus, Terrakion, Lati@s, Mamoswine, Mega Manectric, Tornadus-T, even Kyu-B has enough bulk (56/0, standard sub+3 attacks) to live an unboosted return after rocks and fire back with an ice beam. It's super tough to set up, and even when you do, you have hard counters like Rotom-w, Skarmory, and Zapdos. His bulk is poor, he cannot take powerful priority + some damage to set up, and setting up is ultimately not that rewarding. Most of the time its honestly just better to stay unboosted and weaken your own counters slowly, but remember, you can't even do that reliably because you have to keep rocks off the field.

But don't discount him, his raw power is just ridiculous sometimes, even unboosted, but there are safe switch-ins and even safer revenge killers. It's not hard at all to live Quick Attack (or even the weaker Feint) and just take it out. He's really good, but I don't think he's good enough for S, to be among beasts like charizard and venusaur.

He's super tough to set up and you have a number of offensive checks to stop you even if you actually set up. You usually just don't end up setting him up or doing anything with him, really. You need specialized support to keep rocks off at all times, because not only is he frail, with a terrible bug/flying, but unlike talonflame and the zards, he does not have any recovery, making defog/spin support even more mandatory. You have to weaken its hard counters a lot and weaken the offensive checks even more so that they can't live a quick attack. You CAN sweep with him, but against fast teams, its pretty tough to weaken EVERY scarfer and faster thing into QA range.

In short, it's difficult to set up with him, and it's difficult to weaken everything faster into QA range AND its hard counters into return/eq range. You're better off staying unboosted most of the time, and you need more SR support than things like talonflame.

Let's refer to the S ranking definition again:

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

He certainly can sweep a significant portion of the metagame, but he requires way too much prior weakening/removal to do it.
He cannot perform multiple roles effectively at all, and the moment you even see him on the team preview you can begin preparing for anything it will do. It is not versatile in the slightest.
He can sorta support his teammates with his unboosted returns to wallbreak a little, but he can't come in most attacks and rocks without being crippled late-game, so it doesn't really count.
His substantial strength, (i'd say his raw friggin power) does not mitigate his need for significant weakening and gigantic need for rocks support.

So basically, Mega Pinsir S --> A+

 

[114]

IMO Pinsir is the most S rank there is right now with only competition from maybe Char-X. STAB off of a ~130 BP 100% accuracy move (no STAB factored in) is amazing, and also flying is one of the best offensive typings.

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 233-275 (76.6 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 318-375 (75.7 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 211-250 (65.3 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Its natural bulk is decent enough to be able to set up on a lot of things, and even though it's generally inferior, you can run Bulk up, which makes setting up a lot easier. You can also forego setting up at all and go pure wall break (instead of set up sweeper) and use thrash. Both sets make way for talonflame (or other flying mon) sweeps.

I almost want to call in advance that it will be the next thing suspected.

-----------------------

Seconding drop of Char-Y to A+ for the same reasons everyone has been saying... 4MMS, SR weakness. Also I just have a thing when a special sweeper is hard, hard walled by chansey. Especially when chansey often has SR.

Not to berate the point but when you run Mega-Y and the other team has chansey, you're at a huge disadvantage and will probably lose the battle. You're essentially going 6-5 and no mega, while the other team can still use a mega. Really hated that when I gave Char-Y a spin.

 

[X5Dragon]

I would have given this higher tier discussion a week until we get a clear view about this nascent metagame, but in any case:


S Rank

Aegislash: Same
Charizard (Mega-X): Same
Pinsir (Mega): Same
Venusaur (Mega): Same
Charizard (Mega-Y): Drop down to A+

Why? Because it has a 4MSS not matter what you do with it, aside from the mandatory defog/RS support other things. People have been focusing too much on what CharY can do to TTar/Heatran and not enough about it's other major problem (Talonflame), Dragons. Dragons can relatively switch in with ease and threaten with Draco Meteors or Outrages and some like Goodra can just sit there and nothing at all and watch CharY struggle. It requires a bit more support than it's brother X and a bit too much for an S Tier mon, but otherwise his qualities and strengths are known to everyone.



A+ Rank


Talonflame: Move up to S

I already spent a lot of time arguing for this, but suffice to say nothing can do his job better and permanently threat most sweepers and set up users from S to B+ like him. For most of these teams his very death is required otherwise there sweeping efforts will always fail. He needs defog/RS support to do more than make a few appearances but that is becoming so easy these days that...

Deoxys-S: Drop down to A

He is a great revenge killer/lead and has such a massive movepool aside from the hazard support but let's face it, it's brother D has outshown it in the hazard department so the surprise bluff has taken a hit. If the priorities don't nuke him from the start or whenever he shows up, he is usually limited to one hazard where the opponent can simply send in his hazard removal crew and that's that.

Mega Chomp: Drop down to A

A bulky wallbreaker with no speed and no priorities (and no DD to remedy this). It can be preyed upon, despite it's bulk, by hitting it SE and that's that. Sand is also a bit harder to set up these days.

Garchomp: Same
Heatran: Same
Kyurem-B: Same
Landorus-I: Same
Landorus-T: Same
Manaphy: Same
Rotom-W: Same
Thundurus-I: Same


Edit:

Move to A+

Bisharp: This dude is just made for OU right now, eats crumbler for breakfast, doesn't care about Lando-T, priority to make the ones without one quiver in fear, help against fairies, Pursuit for the Lati@s defoggers (having his cake an eating it too), etc.

Deoxys-D: Repeat after me, best hazard setter in the game. Something as simple as Taunt/SR/Spikes/Magic Coat along with a troll item (Rocky Helmet, Red Card) and this dude can spam until he dies and can almost always lay down at least 2 hazards before fainting.

Latios: Best offensive defogger around, bar none. I'm not even mentioning his 110 speed, 130 SpA with Psyshock that makes him a good revenge killer and damager spreader all around.

NVM just read the part about nominating lower ranked mons up.

 

[rachet67]

IMO Pinsir is the most S rank there is right now with only competition from maybe Char-X. STAB off of a ~130 BP 100% accuracy move (no STAB factored in) is amazing, and also flying is one of the best offensive typings.

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 233-275 (76.6 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 318-375 (75.7 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 211-250 (65.3 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I agree that mega-Pinsir should be S-rank for the most part, but rotom-w will never switch in after the turn pinsir uses swords dance, it will always switch in the turn it does so. So realistically, all those pokemon are still solid counters, except terrakion, which can be nailed with return/frustration on the switch and then KO'd by quick attack.

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 271-319 (83.9 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 106-126 (32.8 - 39%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO

And I don't think its "the most S rank" at all. I'd say its the most pressed to actually stay there. Its shut down by skarmory and zapdos, and has tons of offensive checks at the moment.

This is sort of nitpicky, but Frustration is slightly better than Return as any ditto that tries to steal its boost will almost always have max happiness.

 

[114]

I agree that mega-Pinsir should be S-rank for the most part, but rotom-w will never switch in after the turn pinsir uses swords dance, it will always switch in the turn it does so. So realistically, all those pokemon are still solid counters, except terrakion, which can be nailed with return/frustration on the switch and then KO'd by quick attack.

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 271-319 (83.9 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 106-126 (32.8 - 39%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO

And I don't think its "the most S rank" at all. I'd say its the most pressed to actually stay there. Its shut down by skarmory and zapdos, and has tons of offensive checks at the moment.

This is sort of nitpicky, but Frustration is slightly better than Return as any ditto that tries to steal its boost will almost always have max happiness.

Sorry I meant to show that rotom-W can no longer counter pinsir if it is at less than 76% health... which is quite high. Since pinsir is meant to be used in the later half of the game, this is quite troublesome and very scary to the opposing player who has to consistently keep Rotom-W, a pokemon that checks a lot of pokemon and therefore switches in very often, at 76%+.

 

[Salt]

Please KEEP MEGA CHARIZARD Y S-RANK. I've noticed how people nominating it for a drop haven't taken into account that it starts the battle as "Charizard" instead of "Mega Charizard Y." This point is huge and should not be ignored. Sure, when it Mega-Evolves it's a lot easier to deal with, (as is literally everything in the game when it reveals its set) but nobody is going to switch a Dragon into it on the first turn in fear of Charizard-X, essentially guaranteeing a major hit on something. In fact, I think it would be better if we referred to them collectively, i.e. Charizard is S-rank and we display all three icons with it (see the Ubers viability thread). Right now, it seems to be creating a misunderstanding that MegaZard X/Y are ranked on their own merits (and if they are, they shouldn't be), hence the motions to move MegaZard Y down, but the fact that it's equally possible for Charizard to use either Mega Evolution is a rather big deal.

 

[Shadow2684]

The list is fine the way it is besides Mega Garchomp. Mega Garchomp is really hard to use, it has lower speed and the bulk and higher attack just doesn't compensate for that speed drop so I'd like to say that Mega Garchomp should be drop down to A/A-.

 

[rachet67]

Sorry I meant to show that rotom-W can no longer counter pinsir if it is at less than 76% health... which is quite high. Since pinsir is meant to be used in the later half of the game, this is quite troublesome and very scary to the opposing player who has to consistently keep Rotom-W, a pokemon that checks a lot of pokemon and therefore switches in very often, at 76%+.

Or they can keep there skarmory, zapdos, or thundurus healthy (which is a lot easier). Or just keep your talonflame alive. I wouldn't say rotom-w is the best counter, its just the most common one.

 

[MQJinx]

Whatever rank the Charizards are in, they should be in the same rank. The main reason for Charizard's success is that you never know what set it runs until it mega evolves, and you have to sac one of your mons just to figure out the set it's running. Zard-X checks like Landorus-T, Slowbro, Hippowdon, and Azumarill risk getting taken out by a Drought-boosted Fire Blast or Solar Beam, while Zard-Y checks like Lati@s, Dragonite, and Goodra get scared off by Dragon Dance and Dragon Claw by Zard-X.

 

[Giometry]

I do detest the nominations for the lowering of chomp/megachomp.
Give me two ways that Mega chomp is inferior to kyurem B?
Lack of boosting item, Kyube doesn't use one (most of the time)
Coverage? Dragon ground fire beats electric ground ice.
Kyube can run multiple sets other than wallbreaker.
What is mega chomp if not just a wall breaking garchomp set?
IMO megachomp should be the same rank as normal chomp as it is just another option for chomp to use.
Chomp should not drop from A+ it's incredibly versatile as I have stated before and it has huge offensive presence.

 

[Mood4food77]

mega chomp cannot carry life orb
mega chomp cannot carry leftovers
mega chomp does not have mold breaker
mega chomp needs sand support
mega chomp is slightly slower than kyurem-b
mega chomp has less HP than kyurem-b

the leftovers and mold breaker ones are the biggest reasons why mega garchomp is inferior to kyurem-b

 

[Srn]

IMO Pinsir is the most S rank there is right now with only competition from maybe Char-X. STAB off of a ~130 BP 100% accuracy move (no STAB factored in) is amazing, and also flying is one of the best offensive typings.

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 233-275 (76.6 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 318-375 (75.7 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 211-250 (65.3 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Its natural bulk is decent enough to be able to set up on a lot of things, and even though it's generally inferior, you can run Bulk up, which makes setting up a lot easier. You can also forego setting up at all and go pure wall break (instead of set up sweeper) and use thrash. Both sets make way for talonflame (or other flying mon) sweeps.

I almost want to call in advance that it will be the next thing suspected.

-----------------------

Seconding drop of Char-Y to A+ for the same reasons everyone has been saying... 4MMS, SR weakness. Also I just have a thing when a special sweeper is hard, hard walled by chansey. Especially when chansey often has SR.

Not to berate the point but when you run Mega-Y and the other team has chansey, you're at a huge disadvantage and will probably lose the battle. You're essentially going 6-5 and no mega, while the other team can still use a mega. Really hated that when I gave Char-Y a spin.

First off, rotom-w always run defensive, sp. def is just a dumb idea. Sp. def was used an anti-rain pivot in gen 5, but now it needs to check talonflame and mega pinsir, thus the defensive one is the most common and efficient.
So here's the real calc:
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 169-200 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

While rotom-w does indeed get worn down easily, a good player would keep it healthy late-game, atleast above 66%

Second, I mentioned terrakion as an offensive check. Nothing switches in on this guy after a boost, and he's damn scary, but you honestly just proved your own point: terrakion takes a +2 QA and OHKO's with stone edge. It also naturally outspeeds. Thus, an offensive check.

Third, Bulk up is a terrible idea on a pokemon with no recovery AND bad typing. Don't ever use it lol.

Fourth, Mega pinsir is ez to handle unboosted. The threat of mega pinsir is boosting itself (and boosting is tough), and when you don't do that, you're honestly just wasting a mega. Use banded raptor instead imo.

Lastly, You may say that 120/90 is pretty good defense/sp. defense, and that it has natural bulk, but trust me you're wrong. 65 hp, a major rock weakness, terrible bug/flying typing, and no recovery at all overshadows any defensive potential he may have otherwise had.

With a number of offensive checks, lack of set up oppurtunities, bad defense, and rocks weakness keep mega pinsir, in my opinion, from ever getting suspect tested.

mega chomp cannot carry life orb
mega chomp cannot carry leftovers
mega chomp does not have mold breaker
mega chomp needs sand support
mega chomp is slightly slower than kyurem-b
mega chomp has less HP than kyurem-b

the leftovers and mold breaker ones are the biggest reasons why mega garchomp is inferior to kyurem-b

On the bright side, mega garchomp has more than 3 physical moves to even use :P
He also doesn't NEED sand support, he just hits incredibly hard with it
Mega chomp can boost with swords dance, Kyu-b cannot.
Mega Chomp is also not weak to rocks or common priority, kyu-b is.

 

[TheEnder]

In all honesty, I'm seconding CharY dropping to A+.

I understand the point many people have brought up about Charizard being unpredictable before Mega-Evolving, but the likes of Chansey/Blissey are both able to cripple both versions of Charizard turn 1. Pokes with Sturdy (lol donphan) or Sash are also capable of scouting their opponents' sets.

Once CharY is identified, I feel it loses some of it's "potential" (in lack of a better word). The pink blobs, Goodra and Heatran (non Focus Miss/EQ) hard counter it, and can force it out. Then you have to put in a lot of work to keeps rock of the field, only to get it in safely.

In addition, I often find it lacking a good boosting move. After it has nuked something, 100 Base Speed is a bit lackuster on a pretty frail Poke. The genies, musketeers, lati-twins etc. outspeed and can force Char to either switch out or be revenge killed (ik, invalid argument, but still?).

If used by good players, against the right team, then of course it will be dominating, but i kinda feel it doesn't always pull it's weight.

 

[Thorhammer]

I agree that mega-Pinsir should be S-rank for the most part, but rotom-w will never switch in after the turn pinsir uses swords dance, it will always switch in the turn it does so.

Unless it sees "Foe Pinsir breaks the mold!"

 

[Shadow2684]

Charizard Y shouldn't drop to A+ he doesn't really care about rocks if he's able to Nuke opposing pokemon, He does appreciate the spin support but he doesn't need it, I ran Charizard Y without spin or defog support and I've won many games with it but and most of the time his spin support is pretty useful in the game (Excadrill has won me games and he's my spinner, My preferred team does include a spinner but it's still good without it)

 

[sonnytapman]

That's a very good point. However, spin support isn't the only thing. Espeon is a surprising compliment to Zard-Y, not only because of magic bounce, but because it can deal with a few threats that Zard-y can't and also get a bit of bonus healing thanks to morning sun. In fact, Zard-Y compliments so many pokemon well that it should stay in S rank. Anything that benefits off of sun healing, be it grass types with Synthesis, pokemon with Moonlight, and that's just healing moves that benefit.

 

[Salt]

In all honesty, I'm seconding CharY dropping to A+.

I understand the point many people have brought up about Charizard being unpredictable before Mega-Evolving, but the likes of Chansey/Blissey are both able to cripple both versions of Charizard turn 1. Pokes with Sturdy (lol donphan) or Sash are also capable of scouting their opponents' sets.

Once CharY is identified, I feel it loses some of it's "potential" (in lack of a better word). The pink blobs, Goodra and Heatran (non Focus Miss/EQ) hard counter it, and can force it out. Then you have to put in a lot of work to keeps rock of the field, only to get it in safely.

In addition, I often find it lacking a good boosting move. After it has nuked something, 100 Base Speed is a bit lackuster on a pretty frail Poke. The genies, musketeers, lati-twins etc. outspeed and can force Char to either switch out or be revenge killed (ik, invalid argument, but still?).

If used by good players, against the right team, then of course it will be dominating, but i kinda feel it doesn't always pull it's weight.

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 339-399 (48.1 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

That's a pretty much a best case scenario for Chansey. And Outrage/Flare Blitz 2HKOs it without a boost. And if Physically defensive Chansey is 2HKO'd, then it should be fairly obvious what happens to Blissey. So Chansey/Blissey cannot stop both versions on turn 1. Sure, if it's Charizard Y, then you made a lucky guess but risking a 2HKO from Charizard X isn't the wisest move.
Running a Sturdy/Sash mon for the express purpose of sacrificing and scouting its set supports its absolutely insane unpredictability. And it will be a straight-up sacrifice more often than not because most Sturdy mons are slower than Charizard and Focus Sashes are unreliable with the existence and omnipresence of Stealth Rock.
I already went over the point when Charizard mega evolves and loses its potency. Every Pokemon in the game loses some potency when it reveals its set, but nothing in the game can hide its set like Charizard can, except for Mewtwo who is Uber and an S-rank Uber at that.
On the speed issue, Charizard X has Dragon Dance, and Charizard Y is a wallbreaker who will usually come in on something slower to nuke something.
Please keep both Charizards S-rank. Individually, they may not be S-rank threats, but when they have almost polar opposite roles and you initially don't know which one it is, then not having both be S-rank is a crime.

 

[Koneko Toujou]

Why exactly is Kyu-B +A rank? I feel like Kyu-B isn't as good as it could be, lacking movepool, weak to hazards and all. I'm not into battling anymore, but I'd like an explanation from someone if possible. I could surely tell from gen 5 that it wasn't that good though, what gets it A+ rank?