Also fucks with people who run Thunder Electrics. Weather could be a thing too on stuff like Starmie except everybody uses Thunder Electrics anyway.
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Gen 2 GSC Viability Ranking (OU)
- Thread starter Jorgen
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I would not feel comfortable if I had to rely on Reflect Forretress stalling out a Curselax. If Reflect goes down when you need to Rest, you're screwed. Curse (or, heck, Defense Curl) is better for this sort of thing, but keep in mind that to stall Lax, Forry needs to run Defense boost + Rest, which takes away two moveslots that could instead be used for Spikes-related things, i.e. Forry's life purpose.
I was more along the lines of thinking "it dissuades Snorlax from switching in" (unless it has Fire Blast). You can also just Reflect and pivot, which even despite potentially giving Snorlax free turns to Curse up is usually worthwhile for an actual Snorlax counter.
such as what?
Forry should never be counted on for countering snorlax unless your willing to dedicate his entire moveset to something gimmicky. His function is a spiker that can help stall or take a crucial hit from things like heracross, rhydon, non fb machamp/snorlax, etc. Anyway just saying if your team relies on forry to stop curselax than your going to have a long list of problems. I'd go with reflect curse because forry has limited options of attack other than moob on snorlax and as pointed out, sending in someone else to deal with snorlax with the reflect up works well.
Gotta stand up for tentacruel here because he's never gotten much love. Tentacruel is not much of a sweeper and functions more as a stalll breaker. He's effective to bring out because (off the top of my head) next to nothing resists both it's attacks. A crappy 70 attack sludge bomb still takes a chunk out of snorlax/raikou/zapdos and gets that poison chance, which forces rests earlier. Tenta checks cloyster, umbreon, and suicune incredibly well. To wrap it up you don't have to build your team around tenta. He can just fit in somewhere or he doesn't. Focusing on a team to allow tenta to sweep better is not recommended. Oh yea, tenta hates reflect starmie and snorlax, but especially gengar since his presence means that you won't ever be sweeping. Wait for him to moob gengar or have some pursuit/spikes support.
Gotta stand up for tentacruel here because he's never gotten much love. Tentacruel is not much of a sweeper and functions more as a stalll breaker. He's effective to bring out because (off the top of my head) next to nothing resists both it's attacks. A crappy 70 attack sludge bomb still takes a chunk out of snorlax/raikou/zapdos and gets that poison chance, which forces rests earlier. Tenta checks cloyster, umbreon, and suicune incredibly well. To wrap it up you don't have to build your team around tenta. He can just fit in somewhere or he doesn't. Focusing on a team to allow tenta to sweep better is not recommended. Oh yea, tenta hates reflect starmie and snorlax, but especially gengar since his presence means that you won't ever be sweeping. Wait for him to moob gengar or have some pursuit/spikes support.
oh dear, your post. where to start...
how's reflect/curse any different from curse/rest?
past tentacruel is guilty of having TOO MUCH love.
tenta doesn't have to check cloyster/umbreon/suicune as those are all inherently defensive pokemon anyway. to exaggerate, why would you need to check a blissey? tentacruel is a hard counter to vaporeon though.
tenta hates on psychic starmie in general, reflect is irrelevant in this equation. starmie having reflect instead of psychic is actually easier to break if not ensured.
hydro pump dents gengar really hard on the switch (2hko with spikes iirc).
how's reflect/curse any different from curse/rest?
past tentacruel is guilty of having TOO MUCH love.
tenta doesn't have to check cloyster/umbreon/suicune as those are all inherently defensive pokemon anyway. to exaggerate, why would you need to check a blissey? tentacruel is a hard counter to vaporeon though.
tenta hates on psychic starmie in general, reflect is irrelevant in this equation. starmie having reflect instead of psychic is actually easier to break if not ensured.
hydro pump dents gengar really hard on the switch (2hko with spikes iirc).
1. you dedicate 2 slots to non-damaging moves. spikes is a pre-req to using forretress, that leaves you with one more move. probably rapid spin, which leaves you without an attacking move to make use of the curse? aka this set sounds totally stupid.
3. you can get spikes shuffled by suicune, and get ml-passed to a psychich starmie and get rekt.
4. more than psychic starmie? really? has the metagame changed?
5. still no. it's a solid 3hko in the face of.
3. you can get spikes shuffled by suicune, and get ml-passed to a psychich starmie and get rekt.
4. more than psychic starmie? really? has the metagame changed?
5. still no. it's a solid 3hko in the face of.
1. Oh I see the confusion. I meant to say I prefer reflect>curse forry in first post, not meant as same moveset.
3. Ok
4. Reflect starmie is more useful than psychic starmie, at least in my mind. The things psychic hits (machamp, heracross, tenta) lose most of their firepower to reflect anyway. Plus reflect gives you the option of a temporary defense boost in plenty of situations where the move psychic is useless or just a weaker alternative to surf. Lastly, these pokemon will expect a psychic and probabaly won't be hit by one unless you hide it for awhile. In which case you'll probabaly only land it one time.
5. Surf is not 3hkoing gar unless it's 3 different switches into spikes and minimal leftover recoveries. I'm too lazy to calculate but I'm pretty sure surf does like 24% average. Tenta doesn't get enough showtime and has plenty of other things that switch in somewhat safely to it. Also spikes aren't always down. If you'd try tentacruel instead of looking at it on paper you'll see how annoying gengar can be. You seem to prefer hydro pump so our perspectives are a bit different though.
3. Ok
4. Reflect starmie is more useful than psychic starmie, at least in my mind. The things psychic hits (machamp, heracross, tenta) lose most of their firepower to reflect anyway. Plus reflect gives you the option of a temporary defense boost in plenty of situations where the move psychic is useless or just a weaker alternative to surf. Lastly, these pokemon will expect a psychic and probabaly won't be hit by one unless you hide it for awhile. In which case you'll probabaly only land it one time.
5. Surf is not 3hkoing gar unless it's 3 different switches into spikes and minimal leftover recoveries. I'm too lazy to calculate but I'm pretty sure surf does like 24% average. Tenta doesn't get enough showtime and has plenty of other things that switch in somewhat safely to it. Also spikes aren't always down. If you'd try tentacruel instead of looking at it on paper you'll see how annoying gengar can be. You seem to prefer hydro pump so our perspectives are a bit different though.
4. psychic also hits gengar, which is a problem considering the ONLY reason to run starmie in the first place is to spin.
5. i'm positive surf does at least 37% or whatever. (source: i/everyone at the time tried to make tenta work. for like 3 years tenta was a staple on ou "offensive teams" til around 05-06)
5. i'm positive surf does at least 37% or whatever. (source: i/everyone at the time tried to make tenta work. for like 3 years tenta was a staple on ou "offensive teams" til around 05-06)
ok yea you're right it's 37%. Wow i wasn't even close. I thought gengar had above average special defense....248!? lol.
Yea that's the main issue. 3 most ou pokemon zapdos, snorlax, skarm all do well against tenta. Skarms actually good at wasting hydro pumps.
At the same time all 3 of those pokemon can go down to tenta. tenta + reflect breaks snorlax. Tenta eventually washes away skarm. It's also worth noting tentacruel sets up rather nicely on a sleeptalking thunder zapdos that is asleep. Anyway ya'll prolly think im nuts now, hope u had a good summer.
Yea that's the main issue. 3 most ou pokemon zapdos, snorlax, skarm all do well against tenta. Skarms actually good at wasting hydro pumps.
At the same time all 3 of those pokemon can go down to tenta. tenta + reflect breaks snorlax. Tenta eventually washes away skarm. It's also worth noting tentacruel sets up rather nicely on a sleeptalking thunder zapdos that is asleep. Anyway ya'll prolly think im nuts now, hope u had a good summer.
Better than an outright speed loss to Raikou.
Hooray for hp legend abundance.
Tentacruel usually shouldn't try to set up on zap unless the tentacruel player is losing and in a bad situation. The mistake is when a player leading in the battle relies on thunder zapdos to counter cruel, when skarm/snorlax could've been a safer switch. It's as if they refuse to switch their zapdos out against cruel due to pride. This gives the losing tentacruel an opporunity to win a battle they should never have.
Anyway I've always wondered what the best 4th move on tenta is.
Rest is an interesting alternative to substitute. You lose a lot of safety setting up on railkou, and especially zapdos. Charm umbreon can stall you. Things like cloyster and gengar can moob you a lot better, though fortunately until you reveal rest they will be expecting substitute. This doesn't affect gengar but I feel secure knowing that after switching in against cloyster opponent won't moob unless crazy.
Without substitute you save health in situations where you regretted choosing substitute, e.g. as 100% health skarmory switches in. With rest you have the reassurance that if your tenta, god forbid, gets paralyzed or hit with something super effective you'll have another chance later. Another plus for rest is that you can play tentacruel more reckless and set up on somethin that is asleep or paralyzed. Either you get lucky and have get in a swords dance at a key moment, or you get hit run away and rest it off later. One could argue the same for substitute, but each time your opponent breaks it you lose health knowing you've got no recovery, which never feels good. Rest tentacruel should usually run surf since it's planning on staying as long as it can. Rest helps keep you alive from spikes damage if you lack a spin move.
Wrap was also good alternative, seriously. prior to hp legend ban i tried it and predicting a switch of raikou or zapdos I would wrap them, switch to rhydon and hope for a 4+ turn trap. Gimmicky, but 25% of the time they'd lose their precious thunder, and 37.5% of the time raikou is crippled and zap is hurt. I thought it was OP and people would steal it so I almost never used it. Then Hp legends were accepted again and this strategy pretty much went out the door. Sorry I won't complain about them again I swear. It's just there isn't a single pokemon that can switch into both hp ice zapdos/raikou that is expected to kill them in less than 2 hits. That feels OP. Although snorlax has it good too, except he could get wrecked this way to an endure reversal combo, or just machamp landing cross chops (though machamp will die if one misses). Anyway this tactic is crap now
Tentacruel usually shouldn't try to set up on zap unless the tentacruel player is losing and in a bad situation. The mistake is when a player leading in the battle relies on thunder zapdos to counter cruel, when skarm/snorlax could've been a safer switch. It's as if they refuse to switch their zapdos out against cruel due to pride. This gives the losing tentacruel an opporunity to win a battle they should never have.
Anyway I've always wondered what the best 4th move on tenta is.
Rest is an interesting alternative to substitute. You lose a lot of safety setting up on railkou, and especially zapdos. Charm umbreon can stall you. Things like cloyster and gengar can moob you a lot better, though fortunately until you reveal rest they will be expecting substitute. This doesn't affect gengar but I feel secure knowing that after switching in against cloyster opponent won't moob unless crazy.
Without substitute you save health in situations where you regretted choosing substitute, e.g. as 100% health skarmory switches in. With rest you have the reassurance that if your tenta, god forbid, gets paralyzed or hit with something super effective you'll have another chance later. Another plus for rest is that you can play tentacruel more reckless and set up on somethin that is asleep or paralyzed. Either you get lucky and have get in a swords dance at a key moment, or you get hit run away and rest it off later. One could argue the same for substitute, but each time your opponent breaks it you lose health knowing you've got no recovery, which never feels good. Rest tentacruel should usually run surf since it's planning on staying as long as it can. Rest helps keep you alive from spikes damage if you lack a spin move.
Wrap was also good alternative, seriously. prior to hp legend ban i tried it and predicting a switch of raikou or zapdos I would wrap them, switch to rhydon and hope for a 4+ turn trap. Gimmicky, but 25% of the time they'd lose their precious thunder, and 37.5% of the time raikou is crippled and zap is hurt. I thought it was OP and people would steal it so I almost never used it. Then Hp legends were accepted again and this strategy pretty much went out the door. Sorry I won't complain about them again I swear. It's just there isn't a single pokemon that can switch into both hp ice zapdos/raikou that is expected to kill them in less than 2 hits. That feels OP. Although snorlax has it good too, except he could get wrecked this way to an endure reversal combo, or just machamp landing cross chops (though machamp will die if one misses). Anyway this tactic is crap now
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i said this in the other forums, but to repeat myself a bit:
smeargle to b. as long as you're using it for what it's built for (passing agility), is there anything that does it better?
he's easily in the same sentence as pokemon like dnite, rhydon, and umbreon. the former two don't even actually fit on tier 1 teams comfortably, as they just feel all around lackluster. to me, agi passing to a drummer is a tier 1 strategy easily -- it feels cheap, it might get boring, but there's no doubt in my head that it's one of the best, most effective teams in the game, comparable to spikes/stall and explosion.
i also feel like jolteon should get the nod up as well. something about it being worse than rhydon feels off. it passes both agility and growth. it's a pure electric type. it's definitely not as inconsistent as something like espeon, and it's not as gimmicky as meganium, it deserves a better place imo. argue with me please.
smeargle to b. as long as you're using it for what it's built for (passing agility), is there anything that does it better?
he's easily in the same sentence as pokemon like dnite, rhydon, and umbreon. the former two don't even actually fit on tier 1 teams comfortably, as they just feel all around lackluster. to me, agi passing to a drummer is a tier 1 strategy easily -- it feels cheap, it might get boring, but there's no doubt in my head that it's one of the best, most effective teams in the game, comparable to spikes/stall and explosion.
i also feel like jolteon should get the nod up as well. something about it being worse than rhydon feels off. it passes both agility and growth. it's a pure electric type. it's definitely not as inconsistent as something like espeon, and it's not as gimmicky as meganium, it deserves a better place imo. argue with me please.
Agi-passing to a drummer isn't this extremely consistent ("boring") strategy you seem to make it out to be. There's really no plan B, and although plan A can be insta-win, it takes at least 3 turns of setup, and therefore it's more than just Phazers (most notably Skarm) that can ruin your plans (e.g., Exeggutor, Nidoking lead, Cloyster Explosion, ST Curselax). Smeargle is kind of the worst offender in terms of this; he takes one hit or tosses out Spore once, and if you don't get something serious going, you're now playing 5v6.
Smeargle also does not fit on any team outside of a dedicated AgiPass team, unless you're using him as a gimmicky Spiker or something. At least Dnite and Rhydon fulfill some conventional roles, both on offense (mixed attackers) and defense (Dnite's typing lets him check things like Vap, Egg, and some Grounds, and Rhydon is a pretty decent Lax check), whereas Smeargle does none of that and relies on either surprises or one-off tactics.
As for Jolteon, he's very strong in a vacuum, but the real thing holding him back is legendary electrics. Most of what Jolteon can do is already covered for most teams, and replacing a legend with Jolteon requires seriously justifying to yourself that the bursts in offense offered by Growth and BP are better for your team than a steady dose of Thunders from the tankier legends. So basically, it's either redundant or outclassed on most teams, and the few teams it's legitimately the best option for tend to be similarly one-dimensional and consequently inconsistent as the ones Smeargle fits on.
Smeargle also does not fit on any team outside of a dedicated AgiPass team, unless you're using him as a gimmicky Spiker or something. At least Dnite and Rhydon fulfill some conventional roles, both on offense (mixed attackers) and defense (Dnite's typing lets him check things like Vap, Egg, and some Grounds, and Rhydon is a pretty decent Lax check), whereas Smeargle does none of that and relies on either surprises or one-off tactics.
As for Jolteon, he's very strong in a vacuum, but the real thing holding him back is legendary electrics. Most of what Jolteon can do is already covered for most teams, and replacing a legend with Jolteon requires seriously justifying to yourself that the bursts in offense offered by Growth and BP are better for your team than a steady dose of Thunders from the tankier legends. So basically, it's either redundant or outclassed on most teams, and the few teams it's legitimately the best option for tend to be similarly one-dimensional and consequently inconsistent as the ones Smeargle fits on.
how does one even stop a turn 1 spore, agility, bp, filler (substitute usually) smeargle with wak/lax as recipients? even if you know it's coming, unless you're filled with bulky unkillable shit, you flat out lose from the getgo. it's more of having the right pokemon to stop it more than "outplaying". if you don't have a gengar that outspeeds +2 lax, or a cloy that gets an advantageous roll, or a skarm getting lucky, what exactly can you even do? sure if shit doesnt go your way, smeargle's probably out of commission after taking that one hit, but still. you've literally got a 30% shot or better to just... win. what else in tier-c has anything remotely close to that claim?
i'm not saying smeargle/jolteon are giving zapdos and shit a run for their money, but compared to something as "potentially" useless as umbreon i think it's somewhat comparable. compared to stuff in their own tier: houndoom shits on ptrappers and exeggutor, sure, but does he potentially WIN THE GAME [more than] half the time turn 1? and golem? golem has never been on a tier 1 team in his life. espeon -- as much as you and i or the next guy like him, has never really made a splash on the meta at all. and won't for the foreseeable future. same with clefable and pgon2, stuff that's been around forever but has never made it. agipassing with smeargle + jolteon to lax + wak is a legitimate top tier team.
hell, what has heracross done in his career of ou play? he's situationally average.
i'm not saying smeargle/jolteon are giving zapdos and shit a run for their money, but compared to something as "potentially" useless as umbreon i think it's somewhat comparable. compared to stuff in their own tier: houndoom shits on ptrappers and exeggutor, sure, but does he potentially WIN THE GAME [more than] half the time turn 1? and golem? golem has never been on a tier 1 team in his life. espeon -- as much as you and i or the next guy like him, has never really made a splash on the meta at all. and won't for the foreseeable future. same with clefable and pgon2, stuff that's been around forever but has never made it. agipassing with smeargle + jolteon to lax + wak is a legitimate top tier team.
hell, what has heracross done in his career of ou play? he's situationally average.
I've never been able to give that team more than lip service to be honest. Never felt completely helpless against one of those teams, and more often than not I feel like that team finds a way to fall flat on its face whenever I use it for myself. There seems to be enough making BP difficult that just having the "right Pokemon" is pretty common.
That said, there was one implementation of a Smeargle AgiPass team that legitimately gave me problems: Smeargle + SelfDestruct Drumlax + DrumQuag + HPGround DrumFable. It would also use AA Vap or Charm+ML Umb to deal with the ST Curselax problem. That team was actually able to fall back once things went sour (ergo it was more complicated to wear it down), could reliably take out the one thing that could bring it to a screeching halt (Skarm), and maintained the property of Agi-Pass where everything is one turn from fucking you. I thought it was a really good take on the team, so I'm not totally closed to the idea of Agi-pass (and therefore Smeargle) being legit, but I still haven't seen enough of it to class it as a top team archetype and not just a particularly effective gimmick that managed to throw me for a loop (which has been known to happen).
That said, there was one implementation of a Smeargle AgiPass team that legitimately gave me problems: Smeargle + SelfDestruct Drumlax + DrumQuag + HPGround DrumFable. It would also use AA Vap or Charm+ML Umb to deal with the ST Curselax problem. That team was actually able to fall back once things went sour (ergo it was more complicated to wear it down), could reliably take out the one thing that could bring it to a screeching halt (Skarm), and maintained the property of Agi-Pass where everything is one turn from fucking you. I thought it was a really good take on the team, so I'm not totally closed to the idea of Agi-pass (and therefore Smeargle) being legit, but I still haven't seen enough of it to class it as a top team archetype and not just a particularly effective gimmick that managed to throw me for a loop (which has been known to happen).
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