Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread - Mk III

[YellowAdminSilver]

Other than flavor sense? Not really. Just consistency I guess, since Eeveelutions/Kingdra/Happiness-evolving mons get signature items but AncientPower mons don't. Obviously, AncientPower mons are just one underrepresented minority among many (i.e. Pangoro, Malamar, Lickilicky, Goodra), but I think less underrepresentation > more underrepresentation.

Glacier might have a stronger opinion on this tho.

 

[Frosty]

Uh.

From a balance point of view the +1SpD "makes sense". The STAB on rock moves doesn't. The STAB priority doesn't either. The fact that Mamoswine gets both screens and a plethora of rock moves means that you are basically boosting him out of the wazoo "because we can". Ignoring the fact that this item is unnecessary, this item is overpowered and then some. And I don't mean "slightly overpowered" I mean "you should be ashamed". As far as Mamoswine is concerned at least. Yanmega couldn't care less and Tangrowth is on a nice between, but I digress. And while Yanmega arguably needs a boost (arguably: it has stats and abilities to work just fine), Tangrowth doesn't need that much of a boost and Mamoswine surely doesn't need that huge of a boost.

From a "flavor" point of view, saying "spiritomb has a special item so everything should too" is just ridiculous. Spiritomb has a special item because someone bugged the man the charge and the man in charge made a decision without thinking on the implications. If we are to create a special item every time someone bugs the men in charge we will need a whole NDA just for the items we will need to create. And there are a gazillion special items on the gazillion pokemon games, so it sure don't need new material to make it happen. TBH it would be more logical that we get rid of Odd Keystone instead of us spreading the insanity. I am positive Spiritomb would prefer it too, since a better pressure is nothing compared to extra firepower for a mon that greatly needs it.

 

[Dogfish44]

I'm assuming that's aimed at me? iunno, short on sleep.

The idea of a sig item for AncientPower evos (At the time was just Tangrowth + Mamo, we all completely forgot Yanmega) was being thrown around on IRC - I saw the two mons had Rock moves and low SpD, so I put the idea up. Everyone liked the idea, we all spent a while talking about it, and then the subject changed. It was hardly a serious idea to begin with. That said, I haven't got the foggiest where you're getting "The STAB priority doesn't either." from.

I'd also like to know why I should be "ashamed" for creating an item in ~5 minutes and never expecting it to go anywhere, but perhaps I should be making sure I never abandon any remotely creative endeavour again or something?

That said, I would rather just de-Odd-Keystone Spiritomb, which I've spent an inordinate amount of time complaining about =_=

 

[Mowtom]

If we do the Ancient Power thing, shouldn't there be some equivalent for Lickilicky and Ambipom and such?

(In case it wasn't clear I'm not a fan of the idea)

 

[Its_A_Random]

We are not removing items. Move on.

If you do not like Odd Keystone Spiritomb, suggest an effect change.

 

[Glacier Knight]

Well, time to put in my 2 or so cents (Can't ignore being tagged into this haha).

As IAR above has stated we arent removing items, there only seems to be only one thing left to do (and yes, it seems radical and yes I just came back on but let's hear me out because i'm not always a dolt); Give all pokemon that evolve in an odd way other than the basic "you evolve at level 16, no questions asked or special circumstances needed, poof" standard, sig items.

How are we going to have sig items for certain pokemon that don't even evolve (spiritomb), and have sig items for certain pokemon that evolve normally via standard lvl up (fossil pokemon), but not pokemon that evolve only with a specific move (Ancient Power/Double Hit/Rollout) or evolve in a unique method (Nincada/pancham/inkay/mantyke [although mantyke fam already has an incense sig item])? We have decided and created sig items for some pokemon, so we can't leave out the other circumstances. It's not just about me wanting a sig item for mamoswine, let's just get that out of the way. Yes, I love mamoswine. I would love Mamoswine to have a sig item. But its beyond that, and i've always felt this way but have never really expressed this opinion. YellowAdminSilver and Dogfish44 got me excited with chat on #capasb and we somehow got on the subject and brainstormed. "Ancient Crown" doesnt have to be a crown, or doesnt have to have the proposed effects. The problem is bigger than just "Ancient Crown", its "If we are going to give W and X and Y kinds of pokemon sigs because of special ways of evolving, we have to give Z and etc a sig" because how are we going to discriminate? "So and so was able to sway the people with power to give this pokemon a sig item, but we arent going to get rid of said item and we arent giving other pokemon, probably more deserving of a sig item due to having legitimate requirements met, a sig item"?

And as far as an explanation for why we chose the boosts for ancient crown Frosty , I would think that because of the pokemon's ability to evolve using ancient power, a move hinting that the pokemon can tap into mystical and primal powers from the far past, a sig item imbued with a large concentration of this power would give them access to Rock STAB, the STAB of their "sig move", Ancient Power. They are more in touch with this power than other ancient power users because they are connected in such a way that the power allows them to /evolve/, which would mean there's something special there. The Rock Stab not only help mamoswine but actually Tangrowth and Yangmega more, as it helps them cover more of their weaknesses and gives them a more unique niche: viable in sandstorm (which mamoswine is already viable in). Its not just about "Oh Glacier loves Mamoswine, he would do anything to boost it and that's all he cares about."

Think i'm done for now.

 

[Its_A_Random]

If there is actually anything that needs a sig item at the moment, it is Shedinja. Shedinja technically does not benefit from Rare Candy because Nincada does not evolve into Shedinja via Level-Up, nor does it technically benefit from Everstone unlike what is said in the NDA because it is considered to evolve from Nincada by definition of the handbook. Therefore I propose a signature item for Shedinja to rectify this (though we could just edit the handbook but Sheddy is terrible in ASB).

Empty Shell: Increases the Pokémon's Attack by two (2) Ranks. Increases the BAP of Bug-type and Ghost-type attacks one (1). Confers Run Away and Compoundeyes to the holder if it does not have the abilities.

CC Cost: 8 CC | Affected Pokémon: Shedinja

Basically it is Rare Candy for it plus it gives Shedinja Nincada's abilities which fixes the accuracy of some of its status-inflicting attacks and provides Entry Hazard immunity which otherwise tends to cripple Shedinja and combined with its Ghost-typing, can switch in and out of anything without impunity. Shedinja is still going to suck anyway but this at least helps it out. At least until something uses Knock Off on it.

I also am looking into something for Mamoswine/Yanmega/Tangrowth, Ambipom, Lickilicky, Pangoro, Malamar, and Goodra, but I am not going to do something for those Pokémon at the moment as this is more urgent.

 

[deadfox081]

If we are going down this signature item route then can we look at some of the more eclectic effects on current signature items that are clearly inferior to Rare Candy/Everstone. Sea Incense is one that immediately springs to mind as the Sap Sipper boost is pretty unlikely to ever happen and Azumarill would much prefer just a +1 BAP on its STABs. Alternatively the effect of Soothe Bell would at least give it a boost to Special Attack too. I don't mind the idea of keeping a unique boost but at least make it useful. and not inferior to generic signature items (oxymoron?). I'm sure there are other such items people have issue with.

 

[Frosty]

So we had a lovely conversation/voting on the mods lounge and we decided on the following:

1) We will create a thread to balance the signature items as suggested above.
2) Shedinja will get its signature item. Reasoning is: we consider it both an evolution (ctrl + f shedinja on handbook) and not an evolution (or not a lvl evolution at least as it certainly isn't), so in theory it doesn't have a signature item. Which should be fixed.
3) We will move discussion regarding new signature items to council voting. Yes it was considered buff culture, but we agreed to disagree on whether should we implement it ^_^.


Regarding point 2. anyone oppose to IAR's suggestion? Mostly concept-wise I mean. If your problem is with power (not "what is boosted" but "how much it is boosted") we will handle it on the sig item balance. Which should be put up after shedinja is dealt with.

 

[Dogfish44]

Can we open up a discussion and/or immediate council vote on "What happens when a gym match ends in a tie, but not one which self-ko resolves for us". Normally this happens when Endure and Residual Damage are combined, but there are other cases.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Just resolve it in favour of the user who delivered the final KO; the fairest solution. As for Destiny Bond, rule it against the user of Destiny Bond (Link I am basing this off).

the residual bit could have been completely averted if we decided to finish the game the instant one side is out of pokemon like ingame though

 

[Frosty]

I don see why we should put this to council voting. The gym commitee should just decide if tie is counted as victory for leader or challenger. Every rp has their own rules regarding the matter. Cant see why the same cant be done on gyms by the people in charge of it.

Also I dont understand how that is the fairest solution. Regardless of ingame, the council decided to deviate from it. If you say "it is a tie because anime precedent" but then say "but the tie will be broken towards the one that delivered the blow" you might as well blow away the council decision. Because in reality that is what you are doing: using a ruling to completely overturn a council decision on the only occasion it applies.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Also I dont understand how that is the fairest solution. Regardless of ingame, the council decided to deviate from it. If you say "it is a tie because anime precedent" but then say "but the tie will be broken towards the one that delivered the blow" you might as well blow away the council decision. Because in reality that is what you are doing: using a ruling to completely overturn a council decision on the only occasion it applies.

Except you need to consider tournament play and how to break ties caused by residual damage in tournaments. Which you clearly haven't.

Yeah whole is more relevant to gyms but I would rather kill two birds with one stone.

Then there is the case of both Pokémon fainting at the same time to residual damage in the last Pokémon on both sides scenario in tournaments... >_>

EDIT: Also "using a ruling to completely overturn a council decision on the only occasion it applies." is exactly what I want, because this current shitty resolution system is discriminatory and opens up to situations like exactly the above. The "anime precedent" argument and the "Other RP's have their own resolution system" argument as far as I am concerned are terrible hand-wave arguments for keeping such a flawed system (which does not even help for tournaments) and by reverting to the in-game way of handling the end of a match—which we should have done forever ago—we get a system that does not discriminate, a system with a built-in tiebreaker, a system that prevents people from losing after they won, and a lot of redundancy removed, making a last round reffing less time consuming; far more fair than what we have now. As I said, if we kept with the superior ingame last rounds, we would never be having this conversation in the first place.

 

[Mowtom]

Okay I'm going to clean up the posts before this and post a final ruling.

In this situation, Pwnemon's Kitsunoh KOes Emma Togekiss, and is subsequently KOed by the Future Sight combo as the action is reffed to conclusion as per the results of this voting thread (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/last-action-of-a-match.3485056/)

This results in a draw situation.

As per the implementation thread (http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...e-protect-is-dead.3462105/page-2#post-4741320), "whoever deliberately KOs themselves either by energy depletion or using a move that reduces the user's HP to 0 loses."

However, Pwnemon does not activate this form of self-KO clause, and thus, following the extension of that ruling, "otherwise follow the in-game standard."

In in-game, a battle ends immediately upon resolution of the damage step of the attack, recoil is incurred, rough skin etc, but not any subsequent effects such as Life Orb, Toxic, or Future Sight.

Therefore, Pwnemon is the winner.


With respect to deadfox's concern over Objection's "ability to extend the ruling to following in-game precedent, despite this not being voted on by the council," the council's ruling being narrower in scope, I am deeming this concern invalid to the result of the match for the following reason.

ASB has historically always followed in-game precedent where a given rule is not stated. In the case of Objection's implementation, I am deeming that he posted the decided upon ruling as voted by the council, and simply added on the ASB standard ruling of otherwise deferring to in-game precedent for clarity of the given situation. As he did not alter of implement a ruling of his own accord, and simply stuck with council ruling and ASB precedent, I deem it valid.


Hopefully this resolves any concerns over the ending of this match, if you still have issues feel free to bitch at me over IRC or forum PM.

Pwnemon advances to round 2.

This could be relevant.

 

[Frosty]

Except you need to consider tournament play and how to break ties caused by residual damage in tournaments. Which you clearly haven't.

Yeah whole is more relevant to gyms but I would rather kill two birds with one stone.

Then there is the case of both Pokémon fainting at the same time to residual damage in the last Pokémon on both sides scenario in tournaments... >_>

EDIT: Also "using a ruling to completely overturn a council decision on the only occasion it applies." is exactly what I want, because this current shitty resolution system is discriminatory and opens up to situations like exactly the above. The "anime precedent" argument and the "Other RP's have their own resolution system" argument as far as I am concerned are terrible hand-wave arguments for keeping such a flawed system (which does not even help for tournaments) and by reverting to the in-game way of handling the end of a match—which we should have done forever ago—we get a system that does not discriminate, a system with a built-in tiebreaker, a system that prevents people from losing after they won, and a lot of redundancy removed, making a last round reffing less time consuming; far more fair than what we have now. As I said, if we kept with the superior ingame last rounds, we would never be having this conversation in the first place.

Uh...I feel I am defending oranges and you are attacking apples. Let me try to make myself crystal clear here.

If you want to change the system, then outright propose a revote. Don't use rulings and schemes to do it through other ways. I have no objection to changing that council decision through a revote (tbh I have mixed feelings about that specific decision as from a practical point of view it's only use is to distribute ties and KOC to everyone and I don't like neither of those effects), the same way I don't mind if any other decision is revisited, especially decisions as old as this one. I have many objections though to anyone wanting to change a council decision through means other than a council revoting. If we keep finding ways to not abide by the council decisions, then why have a council in the first place?

And Mowtom that ruling above is exactly what I mean. What should NOT be done. The council states it is a tie instead of whoever attacking last getting the victory (read: the council decided that Anime Precedente > Ingame Precedent in this case, so the second option lost the voting) and the someone "rules" that while it is a tie, it will be broken in favor of the player that delivered the final blow, because ingame is like that. Except that the "ingame option" lost the voting. The basis of the decision made is the option the council said NO to. I can also put it in red if that helps making my point. That is what drives me insane. You might as well shit all over that decision, and over the authority of the council.

Again: if you feel the "anime precedent" is bogus then discuss the matter and put it under voting. If you want, you can create a topic about it, or just move to straight voting. You have my blessings or permission or whatever name you want to call it. Rules are meant to be followed until they are changed. If you don't want to follow a rule, then change it. Chances are, you will probably succeed this time.


And either way you will need to draw tiebreaker rules. I don't doubt there are other ways to get a draw without anime precedent. You might as well cover all bases instead of losing time trying to cover only some of them.

 

[Leethoof]

Flashcaps y/n
As some of you are aware, there is a series of flashcaps that #cap stews up every once in a while. These are pretty cool and balanced Pokemon, that unfortunately are never used anywhere since they don't get implemented in PS! Having them available for purchase and use here would give everyone a chance to finally see them in action! Here is the list in shortform and linking the posts.

Froxbite - 100/5/3/5/2/112 Ice/Fire with Flash Fire/Cute Charm/Snow Warning
Cnidali - 110/4/3/2/3/66 Poison/Fighting with Regenerator/Stench/Poison Heal
Chamereon - 120/3/4/3/4/51 Normal with Multitype
Petrogeist - 100/4/4/2/3/115 Ghost/Rock with Intimidate/Rock Head
Ampeater - 100/2/4/4/3/92 Electric/Dark with Sheer Force/Sand Force
Also some work on a Mega Cnidali - 110/5/3/2/5/76 with Contrary
Tungstorm? - 100/5/5/2/4/52 Steel/Flying with Flash Fire

thoughts?

 

[Frosty]

If the next post is some asshole trying to be funny with one-liners, I will go pick my warnhammer.

Yo Leet, answer is no. Those flashcaps aren't anything more than random fanmade mons. We accept true caps mostly due to tradition and because we already have many of them, but there is enough controversy about allowing in the products of a seriously and carefully planned process, let alone 1-hour-mons. Random fanmade mons just won't be implemented simply because it opens a huge can of worms and because we will see a possibly harmful change in the metagame for little to no hype/benefits. Seriously: the fact the the mons were made by cap people don't make them necessarily trustworthy. No mon made in 1 hour is worth considering, specially when the creators themselves say that creation was mostly for shits and giggles other than balance and metagame-understanding and what-not.

Absolutely no new mon (aside from regular caps) will be introduced here. Especially mons whose time needed to create will be smaller than the time needed to implement -_-.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Uhhhh so I was asked in an IRC PM by Dragonblaze052 about how Sketch works when interacting with a combination and when I looked at the move data, there was nothing mentioned with regards to it. So basically how would Sketch work in that situation? Something probably needs to be codified though.

I guess the options are Sketch nothing, Sketch the move before the combination, and Sketch one of the moves used in the combination though idk what would be the best way to go about this trivial issue. Thoughts?

 

[Frosty]

IMO just let the player choose one of the moves to sketch. When ordering or after ordering or when claiming (think Lucky Egg). It is not like it will break anything. If they want to use the sketched move on the battle, they will specify on the order or after the round (and if they use sketch and the sketched move when ordering first, the ref can simply confirm which move will be sketched before reffing). If not after is good enough.

It is so uncommon that creating a special rule won't break anything really.

 

[Leethoof]

In lieu of moon stone likely being nerfed, moonlight needs to be buffed somehow. Currently, it is impossible to get the 35 HP heal (w/o moon stone) unless you are fighting in a fluffy outdoors arena that explicitly mentions the moonlight being strong. Do we mirror this with Morning Sun like it was at one point I think, or perhaps give it an alternate use like mist moves to create "moon" weather. Maybe fairy terrain can count as strong moonlight also? Something needs to be possible, as Moonlight's current form is pretty flavory and uncodifish.

 

[Geodude6]

How about we just say strong sunlight = strong moonlight because A) it follows in-game, and B) moonlight is just sunlight reflecting off the moon; the moon doesn't produce its own light. There's already the ruling that if the arena is outdoors both the sun and the moon are assumed to be out, and if it's indoors both are assumed to not be out, unless the arena specifically states otherwise.

 

[Mowtom]

How about we just say strong sunlight = strong moonlight because A) it follows in-game, and B) moonlight is just sunlight reflecting off the moon; the moon doesn't produce its own light. There's already the ruling that if the arena is outdoors both the sun and the moon are assumed to be out, and if it's indoors both are assumed to not be out, unless the arena specifically states otherwise.

Moonlight has been reffed exactly the way you describe it in the past. This is kinda a non-issue Leethoof.

 

[Leethoof]

Nda needs to be updated then to make that clear, such as removing everything referencing the moon and then leaving it up to arena descriptions to describe its effect at night

No sass

 

[Gale Wing Srock]

So this issue is a bit of a silly thing, but I am not able to digest the concept of having a move consume no EN on its first use.

The battle in question is here.

My confusion is this, there are quite a few moves that have Base EN cost, a variable EN cost and priority. Like Bide, Helping Hand, King's Shield, Protect, Detect, Snatch, Spiky Shield.

So when these moves are first used in the higher priority, should the pokemon consume the base EN cost or should the pokemon consume the entire EN cost on the completion of the move?

The problem with consuming the entire EN cost on the completion of the move is that: for moves like Bide, a pokemon can potentially spend 3 actions consuming no EN, if the pokemon's Bide is disrupted before completion (Either by an Ally or by an Opponent's Fake Out or sleep inducing move and so on). Which means that folks can use Bide to escape a few turns of effects like Taunt, Torment, etc.

Bascially EN free actions! Which leads us into the zone of "Do Nothing" as an order.

So, why not make these moves consume the base EN cost on its first use at higher priority, and then calculate the variable EN cost depending on what happens during the action and consume it during the scope of the action?

For example: A pokemon using protect would spend 7 EN at Priority 4, and would spend the variable EN part of the move after every attack that the pokemon protects.

There is also a case to analyze here:

If we consider the pokemon consuming the entire cost of protect after the action has ended, then what happens if a pokemon has 5 EN and orders protect in a Doubles+ battle while being targeted by both opponents? Will the pokemon successfully protect for the entire action, even though it doesn't have the base EN cost of the move? Or will the pokemon faint after using protect?

 

[Gerard]

Bide charge face lasts for two turns though, if we did what you propose the second action is still energy free. Should the Bide mon spend 3.5 energy per action then?