Pokemon Philosophy: Is abusing the RNG cheating?

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RNG abuse from my view isnt cheating. If it was way did Gamefreak add so many applications within the game that affected the RNG in the first place. In my eyes it is simply an extension of IV breeding.
I don't thing nothing is wrong with rng abuse but technically you could call it cheating due to using the rng reporter which could be classified as a third party tool that is not apart of the game itself.

I think the only thing bad about it, is that it takes away the alot of fun of SR and the unknown factor of capturing something unknown.
 

Great Sage

Banned deucer.
I would absolutely not consider it cheating. The "RNG" is something that is programmed into the game in its state by the makers of the game, and exploiting it does not require any modification of the game manually or with any outside device.

"But it's supposed to be random! And we aren't supposed to see it!"

We can't see EVs either, and they're supposed to be earned "randomly" while you train your Pokemon, and yet anyone who plays competitively EV trains. I don't doubt that nobody here would argue that EV training is cheating.
 
I think it is cheating because it's like playing the game where you try to grab an apple with your teeth. Using RNG is like using your hands to get the apple.
 
I can understand both viewpoints in this situation. First of all, as Blitzkreig said, it is exploiting hidden parts of the game, very much like IVs. IVs are considered a legitimate part of the game, so why not RNG abuse?

On the other hand, 99.9% of people who abuse the game's RNG use some sort of hacking device to aid them. Though they are not directly changing a Pokemon's IVs, they can still choose the spread they want. Let's face it, RNG abuse would be a heck of a lot less popular without the involvement of some kind of hacking device. You would have to play through the game and gather rare candies to level up and check IVs, for instance. Unless you use Infinite Rare Candies or even Instant IV Check, it is going to be a lot more difficult to do both find your secret ID and check IVs.

My personal viewpoint on the situation? I don't really care. I'm neutral on the abuse of RNG. Someone figured out the system. Good for them. Now everyone is going to have entire teams of flawless Pokemon, and it's going to be a lot harder to make trades on this site. Should I be complaining? No. It wouldn't do anything for me to sit here and tell everyone why RNG abuse is, in a way, cheating. No one would listen. I can say I have abused the game's RNG to get three shiny Pokemon. I wasn't totally proud of myself that I did it. Here comes a shiny egg... yep. That was easy enough. Just a few button clicks and I got myself what used to be Trophy Case material. But even shiny Pokemon aren't enough anymore. Their Individual Values have to be flawless or close to it to even compete on wifi anymore. So, in a year or so, when every Pokemon has been abused to its shiny flawless form, what is going to make DPPt any different from Shoddy? But to sum everything up, I cannot bring myself to be against the abuse of the game's RNG, simply because the variables in teams are so numerous. There are a vast number of ways to put a team together, and each individual Pokemon can run a solid three or more different sets of moves, so there's no telling what to expect. No team is completely flawless, whether Individual Values tell a different story or not.

Anyone want to flame me for my opinion? I'd like to hear someone attack me for my Poke-beliefs xD
 

Mario With Lasers

Self-proclaimed NERFED king
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
Unless you use Infinite Rare Candies or even Instant IV Check, it is going to be a lot more difficult to do both find your secret ID and check IVs.
Actually, knowing your SID has nothing to do with IVs or levels, it has to do with shinies. It's the part of the abuse that most people resort to an AR/Pokésav to check because either you have to be lucky and get a shiny randomly, or chain a bunch of shinies with Pokéradar (or you could do it by trial and error, checking every single SID with RNG Reporter, getting the earliest frame it makes a shiny pokémon appear and hatching/battling it to see if it's actually shiny for you). And a lot of people simply doesn't want all that work.

Funny huh, to get flawless shinies breaking the RNG you have to get one by yourself first. Oh the irony.

So, in a year or so, when every Pokemon has been abused to its shiny flawless form, what is going to make DPPt any different from Shoddy?
In my opinion, that's the best part of RNG abuse. Everybody with a bit of patience is as equal on the battlefield as they would be on Shoddy.
 
I think it is cheating because it's like playing the game where you try to grab an apple with your teeth. Using RNG is like using your hands to get the apple.
This is bad logic; you have no justification for the analogy. What you're really saying here is:

Premise 1) The RNG abuse is cheating.
Premise 2) Using your hands in apple bobbing is cheating.
Conclusion: The RNG abuse is like using your hands in apple bobbing.

To justify your argument properly, you need something of the form:

Premise 1) Using your hands in apple bobbing is cheating.
Premise 2) The RNG abuse is like using your hands in apple bobbing (note, you'd need to give a reason for this, it's not immediately obvious why)
Conclusion: The RNG abuse is cheating.


EDIT: Something that Honch King brought up is interesting. The term 'cheating' only really has relevance within a particular framework. Within the framework of competition battling, the manner by which you got your pokemon with particular PID/IVs/whatever is irrelevant. Battling is trying to assess who chose the better EV spreads, movesets, and lineup, and made the best decisions in the match. That is all. To use an illegal moveset or IV/EV spread (e.g. certain Legendary IV-Nature combinations) would be cheating, in this context.

However, in the context of trading/collecting, there is particular value to subjective qualities (not least because personal preferences become much more relevant to what people are trying to do when trading). One of these includes 'legitness'. To pass off an AR'd or RNG'd pokemon, like a Shiny Legendary as legit when it is not in order to make a better trade would be cheating, in that context.

It's not immediately clear which this thread or the posters in it are talking about.
 
Well, a closer comparison would be some resurch done towards arcade games which has been done recently. A team of people bought an arcade machine and studied it's programing, and thus, worked out how to have the best chance of winning (The machine in question was made to make sure only 1 in 14 people won, or whatever).
Anyway, the team then went out and found similar machines in arcades, and got all of the money used to fund the resurch back and more, making a profit of £2,000 or something. But, their conscience got the better of them, they felt like it was stealing and stopped.

Of course, it's different with real money to software on a game. Because of that, I would say myself and most others would not consider it "cheating". Everyone can RNG abuse, so it doesn't create an unfair advantage like Action replay. And keeps within the rules of the game, just like the arcade.
The arguement against RNG abuse is that nintendo and gamefreak didn't want us to discover about it. But then, look at the battle frontier pokemon list in Stark mountain, I'm sure they didn't want us to discover that either. It's more up to what individuals feel is right or wrong to do.
 

Syberia

[custom user title]
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Actually, knowing your SID has nothing to do with IVs or levels, it has to do with shinies. It's the part of the abuse that most people resort to an AR/Pokésav to check because either you have to be lucky and get a shiny randomly, or chain a bunch of shinies with Pokéradar (or you could do it by trial and error, checking every single SID with RNG Reporter, getting the earliest frame it makes a shiny pokémon appear and hatching/battling it to see if it's actually shiny for you). And a lot of people simply doesn't want all that work.

Funny huh, to get flawless shinies breaking the RNG you have to get one by yourself first. Oh the irony.
Well, with the newest version of RNG Reporter, we can do it with chained shinies, and with the new post TCCPhreak just made, it looks like we might be able to calculate it without catching any shinies soon.
 
Whether RNG abuse is cheating depends on an arbitrary line drawn on a scale of unfairness. RNG Abuse is "unfair" to some people and there's really no denying that. Whether it has become "unfair" to the point of being considered "cheating" is something we judge for ourselves.

What I will say is that comparing AR to RNG Abuse is a flawed analogy. Clearly, AR has altered the course of game play to a much greater degree than RNG Abuse. RNG Abuse does not affect the game's data or memory. It is but an indirect external device. AR is a direct usage of an external device and this ultimately cannot be undermined. RNG Abuse does not alter the game's natural functioning. Rather, we manipulate the natural function to our advantage. If RNG Abuse and AR were both placed on a scale of "unfairness", Action Replay would be far further in.

I don't really buy the argument that AR and RNG Abuse are the same as unfair because they are the means to the same end. Despite being highly unlikely, a person can play 100000 hours without any RNG Abuse or AR and they could be fortunate enough to capture a shiny, perfect IV Magikarp. Ultimately, this particular "end" is not cheating. Perfect, shiny pokemon were always available to us through natural gameplay with no special knowledge. RNG Abuse just increased the chance by trillions and trillions.

On the other hand, capturing a shiny Dialga in the wild is outside of what is possible in natural gameplay... and ultimately, this is why AR is more unfair. The means or process matters with AR because it often does not reach a natural "end". As much as a shiny RNG Abused Dialga looks like one created from AR, the coding may ultimately not be the same. And, more importantly, there was a chance through natural gameplay that the RNG Abuse generated Pokemon would occur. RNG Abuse and AR appear to come to the same ends, but they in fact do not. AR can ultimately destroy your game. RNG Abuse does not. That is the game itself telling you that there is a fine line between the two. This is a good argument as to why the line drawn for "cheating" at altering the game's memory and data is not so arbitrary.

Still, it cannot be argued that RNG Abuse isn't unfair. The RNG was intended to be random. We reduce the amount of labor intended fro perfect IV, shiny Pokemon by trillionfolds. It's ess unfair than AR but it is still unfair nonetheless.

Of course, the argument that GameFreak intended for us to discover RNG Abuse is a compelling one. Despite not seeming likely from the surface, consider this: once upon a time, someone discovered IVs and EVs. Instead of keeping them from us and altering game mechanisms in the next generation, GameFreak actually chose to help us with our efforts to manipulate these mechanics. We have the Macho Brace and we have all the Anklets. Yet, it cannot be denied that IVs/EVs are completely hidden from us through natural gameplay and no external sources. Likewise, it may have been GameFreak's intention for us to abuse the RNG. As others have mentioned, they only made it easier to manipulate the RNG in the 4th generation. It was not the other way around.

In the end, it comes down to your own judgment whether RNG Abuse is "cheating" or not. But people who use AR should not pretend that what they are doing is not more unfair than RNG Abuse and RNG abusers should not pretend what they are doing is more natural than playing Pokemon with no guides or internet like many little toddlers choose to do so every day.
 

mattj

blatant Nintendo fanboy
What I will say is that comparing AR to RNG Abuse is a flawed analogy. Clearly, AR has altered the course of game play to a much greater degree than RNG Abuse. RNG Abuse does not affect the game's data or memory. It is but an indirect external device. AR is a direct usage of an external device and this ultimately cannot be undermined. RNG Abuse does not alter the game's natural functioning. Rather, we manipulate the natural function to our advantage. If RNG Abuse and AR were both placed on a scale of "unfairness", Action Replay would be far further in.

AR uses an external device to alter the flow of electricity between the cartridge and DS. RNGabuse involves following directions given to you by an external device and manually altering the DS clock to an unrealistic, and often impossible to reach date. Altering the game's date sounds like altering the games data to me. In both cases they acheive the same goal by similar methods of altering data (I'm talking about getting Hexflawless pokes, not a sableye with wonderguard).

AR has the device do 90% of the work for you (altering the game data) and you do the other 10% (finding codes, putting them in if necessary). RNGabuse has the device do 80% of the work for you (insane calculations that no single person yet has done without it) and you do the other 20% (flipping pages/coins). In both cases the external device does the majority of the work.

Both devices are the product of hacking into the game.

Just my opinion, but if AR is "cheating", RNGabuse is "cheating". They're just too similar for me. You can personally believe that RNG abuse isn't bad (as I do), but I can't see it as not being "cheating", IF AR is "cheating"
 
Okay, I'm dragging out the dictionary for this one:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cheat

transitive verb
1: to deprive of something valuable by the use of deceit or fraud (Nope, this one doesn't apply to the concept of "PRNG abuse.")
2: to influence or lead by deceit, trick, or artifice (This one doesn't seem to apply, either.)
3: to elude or thwart by or as if by outwitting <cheat death>(Cheating the RNG, maybe? Well, you're not exactly avoiding the RNG; in fact, you're letting it do whatever it wants once it's setup to your desires. Wait, that sounds like outwitting it...)

intransitive verb

1 a: to practice fraud or trickery (This seems subjective. Perhaps you're deceiving the RNG?)
1 b: to violate rules dishonestly <cheat at cards> <cheating on a test> (This one's really subjective. Whether "PRNG abuse" is cheating on this level depends on your rule set or your perception of the game's rule set.)
2: to be sexually unfaithful —usually used with on<was cheating on his wife> (No way this one applies.)
3: to position oneself defensively near a particular area in anticipation of a play in that area <the shortstop was cheating toward second base> (Not this one, either.)

Well, that doesn't clear anything up. You could still argue either way.


However, this premise makes the most sense to me:
To say that it's cheating is to say that you can do something and it's not cheating, but if you do the exact same thing except with knowledge of what you're doing, it suddenly is cheating. That doesn't seem like a consistent definition of cheating.
I'm trying to think of an instance where not knowing what you're doing is not cheating, but knowing what you're doing IS cheating--and I'm failing miserably...

Seriously, you manipulate the PRNG during normal gameplay without knowing exactly what you're doing and that's not cheating. However, when you manipulate the PRNG during "PRNG abuse" knowing exactly what you're doing, NOW it becomes cheating? How does that work?


'Oh, but both an Action Replay and the RNG Reporter do the majority of the work.'

You don't NEED the RNG Reporter. You ABSOLUTELY NEED the Action Replay. Without the Action Replay, there's no Action Replay abuse. Without the RNG Reporter, "PRNG abuse" CAN be done, but it would take a hell of a lot longer to do. Instead of a bunch of calculators in one handy program, you might need a bunch of calculators from several different programs; are they all external devices? Are the formulas they are calculating external devices? It's also possible, though impractical, to do it all by hand; is your brain an external device? Are the formulas you're doing by hand external devices?


Again, I fail to see how a bunch of formulas can be equated with specialized hardware in this manner.
 

mattj

blatant Nintendo fanboy
transitive verb
1: to deprive of something valuable (hex flawless pokes) by the use of deceit or fraud (changing the DS clock to an artificial, often impossible date)
2: to influence or lead by deceit, trick, or artifice (^ditto^)


intransitive verb

1 a: to practice fraud or trickery (^ditto^)

If the date is August 2nd 2009, and you change the DS clock date to October16th 2099, that would be deceit, fraud, and trickery. Again. Not that I think it's evil or something. It's a quick way to get crazy good pokes that all fit ingame standards, but by those definitions it is cheating.

And you can say you "can" do RNG abuse without the program, but the fact is nobody does that. And also, you probably could cartridge tilt/poke a paperclip down into the DS to disrupt the flow of electricity and get the same results as an AR without the actual external device too, but again, nobody does that.
 
If the date is August 2nd 2009, and you change the DS clock date to October16th 2099, that would be deceit, fraud, and trickery. Again. Not that I think it's evil or something. It's a quick way to get crazy good pokes that all fit ingame standards, but by those definitions it is cheating.

This is the part of RNG that I have a problem with. I wouldn't care about flipping pages til the cows come home, but changing the date drastically just for one Pokemon seems disingenuous.

My theory is that truly competitive battling should occur in a controlled environment, like it does in other e-sport competitions. In things like competitive CS or WoW Arena battles, the environment and the hardware is incredibly controlled. It should be no different for Pokemon.

That's why Shoddy is so appealing to people, I think. Everyone gets the perfect Pokemon, and it's a matter of team building and skill (and luck sometimes) that means winning or losing. Not if you're better at massaging the RNG for your benefit.
 
I have to call bullshit. What exactly are you taking away from the PRNG? What are you actually depriving the PRNG of? Its randomness? Its pseudo-randomness? You can't take the randomness out of something that isn't random. And how do you take the pseudo-randomness out of something?

Besides, if catching Pokemon in "the future" is cheating, then what about catching Pokemon on "legitimate dates?" What if you don't have to change the date at all to get the spread you're looking for? Are you cheating to get those Pokemon?
 
Well theoretically if you simply timed it correctly and got the pokemon, that would be totally fine in my mind. It's a matter of intent, and degree of machination, that makes it plausible to me.

I'm not sure how you call bullshit on an opinion, by the way. I've got no problems with people using AR or pokesav or the RNG, to be honest, but as far as catching pokemon go, I choose not to use it, and I choose not to for the reasons I mentioned.

If I felt the need to compete in Pokemon, I would do it on Shoddy. For people who play in the wifi arena often, they may have a stronger line for or against the RNG use.
 

ΩDonut

don't glaze me bro
is a Programmer Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Researcher Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
If the date is August 2nd 2009, and you change the DS clock date to October16th 2099, that would be deceit, fraud, and trickery. Again. Not that I think it's evil or something. It's a quick way to get crazy good pokes that all fit ingame standards, but by those definitions it is cheating.
Hey mattj,

Before people start getting misinformed (wait it looks like I'm too late), you don't need to drastically change the DS clock date. There are plenty of good breeding spreads to be found without going into the far future.

My PRNG'd eggs are all hatched in the year 2009, in the month of August (because I'm lazy enough to wait until now to breed new members for my Worlds team). The shiny Cresselia I had? Also done on a reasonable May 11, 2009.

EDIT: Here's a little ammunition for those of you who want to argue that date-changing is a game function: if you have a Pokemon whose caught date is ahead of the DS date, the guy at the Pal Park will comment "You have a Pokemon from the future! That's so awesome!" when you finish catching your 6 Pokemon. Or so imperfectluck tells me.

Can someone test this? I'm stuck with a no-GBA-cartridge-slot DSi.
 
^^ That wasn't directed at you. I should have made that clear.
No worries. It's one of those forum things, I always feel people are directly attacking me or my posts. Call it an old habit :)

As far as OmegaDonut's post goes, if that's true (and I'm glad to be mistaken about it), then I think the RNG is far more fair than I had understood it to be. If all it does is tell you the exact moment to grab the egg you were already hatching, then hell, what do I care if some people are more precise than others?

My issue (based to be honest mostly on the bearsfan video of him using the RNG and catching a...Heatran? I think?...in 2066) was the drastic change from one date to another not truly within the scope of the game. Scope being a subjective term in my head for maybe 4 or 5 years of gameplay, although changing the year from 2009 to 2010 is still not something I would do.

But I digress, some would say too late.
 
I wish people would stop saying that knowledge about IVs and EVs wasn't meant to be figured out. Obviously, these people missed this interview posted on page 3:

G4: Many people erroneously think that Pokemon games are just for children, but there are many complex features in the game like IVs, EV training, Hidden Power, and more. How did these features come about?

JM: The reason why we put things like IVs and EVs into the game is because we wanted to give players that are really into Pokemon battles much more to work with and much more to enjoy. We have a team that's dedicated to constantly enhancing and evolving the battle system. They have so many ideas and such a willingness to enhance the game. They're always thinking of ways to make battles more interesting. One example from this generation is that they separated moves into physical attacks and special attacks, which adds more versatility and strategy to both offense and defense. They always listen to player feedback and they battle a lot themselves. This team is the reason why Pokemon has such a rich battle system that's always evolving.

G4: Some G4 readers dismiss Pokemon as being just for kids. Do you have a message for them? Anything that might attract them to the game?

TK: I recommend that your readers try Battle Frontier in Pokemon Platinum. Although you can battle trainers and wild Pokemon in the storyline, Battle Frontier is the ultimate place for battling -- the place where people can enjoy the complexity of battles the most. One of the more complex parts of the game is raising Pokemon for battling, like you mentioned with IVs and EVs. Battle Frontier is the best place to enjoy that high level of battling and get the most out of the Pokemon you train.
Also, as I've said three times now, Nintendo's been dropping hints about IVs since Stadium, and the latest guides talk about EV training.

And with the dictionary example, I'd say:
1 b: to violate rules dishonestly <cheat at cards> <cheating on a test>
fits the best.

EDIT: Wait, they were dropping hints since RED/BLUE. The whole "Pokemon of the same type (referring to species in context) and level are different" thing. It was even a question in the Cinnabar Gym quiz thingies.
 
Im just going to say something that may be a little stupid to most of you but to understand it isn't difficult. When you look a competitive video game players, there are always levels of some sort of cheating within the game. Take something like Super Smash Brothers Brawl. Most pros use glitches within the game as a part of the tool of the trade. The same can be said about something like pokemon. Also, you got to remember that majority of people who play this game competitively or professionally aren't little 5 year olds. Just recently i read an article about a competitor going to the championships who has a degree from Stanford in Electrical Engineering and is pursuing a Dotorate from MIT. Are you going to tell me that this person decided to pick a team of her favorites with lame stats and terrible natures. Hell no. The fact is somebody like person probably realized that the game is just an overly complitcated math problem and can be easily broken. All im saying, im pretty sure all the pros use RNG to get a decent team out there to compete, especially when levels are capped at 50.
 
[offtopic]

Regarding IVs and EVs, I only wish that they were straight up with us in the games themselves. I didn't know exactly what they were talking about all that time until I got started in competitive battling in early D/P.

[/offtopic]

I'd say that the only thing I do have a problem with would be those that change the dates to ridiculous years like 2066 to get the spreads they want. That seems silly IMO at the very least.
 
What does a date matter at all, again?
everything. The date usually determines the seed.

Also why cant we have outrageous dates when we caught or hatched a pokemon. I would love to have a pokemon to hatch on my birthday but that day is way to far away. Or some kind of funny date like 12/12/2012
 
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