Problem with that is that if Tar uses Crunch as you swap in Scizor, Scizor isn't losing 50% of it's HP anyway. And no, Tar is far easier to predict than Mence, largely due to it's mediocre SpAtk.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
The First Smogon Council - Salamence
- Thread starter Aeolus
- Start date
- Status
I don't even know why people are testing anyway, according to someone over at the gamefaqs diamond board the "voters" have already been chosen and the testing is just to give a "false sense of hope" for those who wish to be chosen to be in the testing.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/925601-pokemon-diamond-version/54917910
post no 5.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/925601-pokemon-diamond-version/54917910
post no 5.
Okay then, last question for this topic:
There will be nine people chosen to determine Mence's fate - can I trust that the battlers chosen are intelligent and will make the right decision? Are these 9 going to base their decision on how much "fun" they're having without Mence around or what?
Honestly do you guys really think Mence will go uber? I just can't seem to grasp that happening. Weak to SR and 4x weakness to priority moves....ugg.
There will be nine people chosen to determine Mence's fate - can I trust that the battlers chosen are intelligent and will make the right decision? Are these 9 going to base their decision on how much "fun" they're having without Mence around or what?
Honestly do you guys really think Mence will go uber? I just can't seem to grasp that happening. Weak to SR and 4x weakness to priority moves....ugg.
Being 4x weak to Ice Shard doesn't matter when you can OHKO almost anything as it switches in. Also, doesn't the first post of the thread say something about the nine chosen ones being selected based on CRE and tournament rankings and whatnot? Even then, if someone not on the council brings up a good enough argument, a council member or two is bound to at least think about it when it comes time to vote.
I completely agree, though stall is sort of cramping some offense's style. Someone with whom I made a team found a bunch of good unconventional stall breakers, though! Grass-types are definitely on the rise, recreating the old Grass/Fire/Water core. Shaymin is fantastic right now due to the removal of the Dragons, and Celebi, Breloom, and Roserade are enjoying the new conditions as well.
Even though Ice Beak = sex against Salamence, I think Bulky Waters will be able to run the Hidden Power of their choice now (Grass, Electric) to hit Gyarados/Swampert over mence, as well as other waters!
Speaking of unused dragons, Kingdra has been doing fantastic for me. Just the right amount of bulk and power is perfect.
Superpower isn't a bad choice either, since it still hits Steels for neutral damage (And Heatran for SE). +1 Adamant 252 LO Superpower does 62.57% - 73.95% to Specially Defensive Skarmory, which probably isn't the most impressive calc, but if you can weaken Skarm a bit, you'd OHKO it.
Oh, and Staraptor is beast. Gyara is a better defensive Intimidator, yes, but Staraptor isn't known for its defenses anyway. It's great for coverage and power (Brave Bird is a much better STAB, along with CC).
How is dragonite's overall performances in this meta (currently)?
Did it almost completely overtake salamence's spot? Did it fall?
Did it almost completely overtake salamence's spot? Did it fall?
skarmory is a flying type as well
I think he was saying that besides Heatran (and Lucario), most steels aren't weak to fighting (aka Jirachi, Metagross, Skarmory, Scizor, Forry)
Some people have tried to use Dragonite as a Mence replacement, but it is largely inferior due to its lower SpA and speed. However, it is different in that Dragonite requires real firepower to take down with certain viable EV spreads as opposed to Salamence which could be severely weakened or KO'd by a strong priority attack. Mence was definitely better though. Nothing has REALLY filled the void of Mence.
I was skeptical that the metagame would dramatically improve without Salamence but it definitely has for the time being. And it isn't even the fact that Salamence is so powerful and can rip through many "counters/checks" with draco meteor/dd outrage/fire blast/etc. It is that every style of play becomes more diverse and "better" without Salamence. Stall becomes very useful again, as Salamence was basically the number 1 Pokemon to defeat stall with (MixMence). Offense no longer has to dedicate a team slot to revenge killing DDMence because they would be swept otherwise (and there certainly were many chances for it to set up, such as choiced locked pursuit from ttar). Balanced teams that rely on Heatran/Water/Grass cores are now fully functional again, even teams like Hail can be used more effectively with MixMence (who can 2HKO everything) out of the picture.
This diversity makes gameplay a lot more fun, as new leads and less common sets are being seen to deal with what is popular, instead of having to center around dealing with Salamence. That screams over centralization, and the metagame has improved without it. Right now I am absolutely in love with CB Pert, who can really hurt stall teams with his bulk and power - I wouldn't even dream of using this Pokemon (which has Superpower/Waterfall/Earthquake) when Salamence was around. If that doesn't scream set up and OHKO everything, I don't know what does.
The game is also a bit more slow and makes you think, which I think is a wonderful thing. I don't need to add a Scizor to stop DD Mence or a Scarf Jirachi to try and speed tie. They are still good, but I can now use leftovers, expert belt, life orb, etc to make my opponent say "wait, what just happened?!". When multiple sets for Pokemon all become much more viable, I think this a clear sign that things have improved.
I don't really understand why people are hating "stall", most of the top players on leaderboard are using cool variations of offensive/balanced team that easily deal with it, and new sets are already hitting the ladder / becoming more popular. Stall is obviously better without Salamence gone, but as I said earlier, all other team types have improved as well, and so players should try to think outside the box when constructing your team, as the absolute biggest threat in the metagame is no longer there.
This diversity makes gameplay a lot more fun, as new leads and less common sets are being seen to deal with what is popular, instead of having to center around dealing with Salamence. That screams over centralization, and the metagame has improved without it. Right now I am absolutely in love with CB Pert, who can really hurt stall teams with his bulk and power - I wouldn't even dream of using this Pokemon (which has Superpower/Waterfall/Earthquake) when Salamence was around. If that doesn't scream set up and OHKO everything, I don't know what does.
The game is also a bit more slow and makes you think, which I think is a wonderful thing. I don't need to add a Scizor to stop DD Mence or a Scarf Jirachi to try and speed tie. They are still good, but I can now use leftovers, expert belt, life orb, etc to make my opponent say "wait, what just happened?!". When multiple sets for Pokemon all become much more viable, I think this a clear sign that things have improved.
I don't really understand why people are hating "stall", most of the top players on leaderboard are using cool variations of offensive/balanced team that easily deal with it, and new sets are already hitting the ladder / becoming more popular. Stall is obviously better without Salamence gone, but as I said earlier, all other team types have improved as well, and so players should try to think outside the box when constructing your team, as the absolute biggest threat in the metagame is no longer there.
Thank you. That was well said and I hope that it gets heard. Unfortunately, this thread is full of people just moping over the positive reception to Mence's removal. Basically, they don't like it because they're so reliant on it, and can't imagine a metagame where they actually have to THINK while building teams, as opposed to just slapping Mence onto every team they make.
I unfortunately have not been able to try the meta without mence (due to school finals coming up), but I hope that as soon as I get out I'll be able to try it.
The removal of a Pokémon that is largely unstoppable if given one completely free turn of setup (Salamence) is certainly a huge improvement to versatility. Some more concrete examples of this: Suicune doesn't have to live with the fear of not using Ice Beam anymore, so CM Restalk Suicune is back to threaten heavy stall. Grass-types in general can use their best coverage moves instead of just being paranoid with hitting Mence (Breloom with Seed Bomb instead of Stone Edge to combat Rotom better, Shaymin with the powerful Seed Flare+EarthPower+HP Fire, etc). Even Heatran can make use of sets that have only Fire move + Earth Power to do damage.
It's interesting how there was a thread discussing the possibility of Salamence moving to Ubers in December 2009(http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65012), and the responses were overwhelmingly pro-OU.
I hope all you realize that stall isn't as easy as it was even without Salamence because people are packing annoying ass things like Breloom, Cursepert, and Mix Dragonite. Additionally things like Shaymin mess with stall as well. So everyone that says the metagame is a stallfest is incorrect and ignorant.
One other thing I'd like to note is the dramatic decrease in Scizor. This cannot possibly be attributed to the sole Pokemon Salamence though, right?
One other thing I'd like to note is the dramatic decrease in Scizor. This cannot possibly be attributed to the sole Pokemon Salamence though, right?
Salamence.
The problem with pushing Mence up to Uber is the most likely increase in Kingdra because everyone is scared to use one for fear of Mence. Mence is the perfect Kingdra counter and not only that. Mence is so predictable its easy to guess what he will do next.
Mence has insane power and DDmence is one of the worst. I don't see people making teams based around beating Mence. In fact alot of people aren't even scared of it anymore.
Well thats my opinion anyways.
The problem with pushing Mence up to Uber is the most likely increase in Kingdra because everyone is scared to use one for fear of Mence. Mence is the perfect Kingdra counter and not only that. Mence is so predictable its easy to guess what he will do next.
Mence has insane power and DDmence is one of the worst. I don't see people making teams based around beating Mence. In fact alot of people aren't even scared of it anymore.
Well thats my opinion anyways.
Salamence and Latias not being around to being "checked" by Scizor counts heavily, and then there's also the revival of Grass/Water/Fire cores and Bulky Offense due to those two being banned.
So yeah, Scizor is good but the metagame seems a bit gloomer for him. Just a bit.
I feel there is no reason to play in this suspect test, because the council will all no doubt all be the most high profile prolific smogonites who bother to play and submit. Even if the nine themselves haven't been decided, the pool from which these nine are drawn is finite and predetermined.
A relative unknown, regardless of ratings and quality of application posts, has zero chance to have any say in this process.
Such a small portion of battlers take part in Smogon tournaments; if you're not high on these lists, for example:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59886
You probably shouldn't get your hopes up.
A relative unknown, regardless of ratings and quality of application posts, has zero chance to have any say in this process.
Such a small portion of battlers take part in Smogon tournaments; if you're not high on these lists, for example:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59886
You probably shouldn't get your hopes up.
- Status