np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

[Quataaaa]

you guys are zany. Manaphy is clearly broken with or without rain. why not simply ban him first and see if drizzle is STILL broken???? why would you take the radical move of completely banning drizzle and Manaphy concurrently. over in the PO server, where manaphy is banned, but drizzle is not, rain teams are a bit more balanced.

furthermore, drought teams are way better than you guys are giving them credit for.

Leafeon absolutely wrecks shit. Adamant nature, 250 speed (outspeeds chomp in the sun), max attack, rest of ev's in hp and special defense, swords dance, return, leaf blade, and dig (dig is to hit steels and fires after a swords dance and speed boost from the sun. laugh now, get ohko'ed by it later).

Mebukijika has a wide movepool, excellent typing, ability to swords dance, double edge, gain back the health with wood horn.... mebu often requires shed shell attached and flash fire support to deal with shandera though.

Furthermore, sun is great because it covers up the water weakness of ground and fire pokes and really lets them sweep. What's more, ninetails is hella underrated and can be a real bitch to take down. One could argue that scizor and forrettress are BEST in the sun, since they die from fire attacks anyway, and now effectively gain a water resistance.

also, i should mention that espeon is a terror in the sun. max speed, calm mind, psychic, hp fighting, leftovers, morning sun @ leftovers. it beats blissey 1 on 1 and can set up on a widdeeee range of pokes when the sun is up.

also, i'm genuinely amazed that no one has mentioned golduck in this thread.

given his bulk, typing, movepool... he's the second best swift swimmer in the game behind kingdra. i've performed so many golduck sweeps over in PO. and with psycho shock, blissey can't wall him....

considering this, another lethal weapon for rain teams....

 

[JSND]

well i think rain isnt as no thinking as most think.
It is only good if played with good supporter.
If it IS i fear rain a lot

 

[Metal x Soldier]

I agree with quataaa manphy is the true terror in the rain. +6 in two turns nuff said

 

[jrp]

You guys are forgetting something. Calm Mind Manaphy is much more hellish to deal with if it can set up, since it can take a ton of hits after a single calm mind. While it's not as immediate as the power gained from +3 tail glow, calm mind allows manaphy to take electic attacks from faster pokemon (namely starmie and to an extent, after a couple cm's, zapdos).

Tail glow can easilly be revenged by faster pokemon with a strong SE attack. CM can just spam boosts, rest, and sweep.

Anyway, rain clearly needs to go. I'm working towards hitting the required rank specifically because of how broken it is.

The only way I've been able to deal with the rain is with my porygon2. If kingdra gets a critical hit or a flinch with waterfal, there's nothing I can do. And once you take out kingdra, you get to look forward to Kabutops and Ludicolo, all who can easilly rip teams apart. Plus Manaphy, who was banned for being broken BEFORE there was permanent rain back in Gen 4.

Just getting my two cents in.

 

[TLK]

Plus Manaphy, who was banned for being broken BEFORE there was permanent rain back in Gen 4.

Just getting my two cents in.

And before Tail Glow was stupidly overpowered.

 

[Arc Tech]

You guys are forgetting something. Calm Mind Manaphy is much more hellish to deal with if it can set up, since it can take a ton of hits after a single calm mind. While it's not as immediate as the power gained from +3 tail glow, calm mind allows manaphy to take electic attacks from faster pokemon (namely starmie and to an extent, after a couple cm's, zapdos).

Tail glow can easilly be revenged by faster pokemon with a strong SE attack. CM can just spam boosts, rest, and sweep.

Anyway, rain clearly needs to go. I'm working towards hitting the required rank specifically because of how broken it is.

The only way I've been able to deal with the rain is with my porygon2. If kingdra gets a critical hit or a flinch with waterfal, there's nothing I can do. And once you take out kingdra, you get to look forward to Kabutops and Ludicolo, all who can easilly rip teams apart. Plus Manaphy, who was banned for being broken BEFORE there was permanent rain back in Gen 4.

Just getting my two cents in.

Yes, but if manaphy is broken without rain, it's becuase of tail glow- otherwise its outclassed by suicune.

100 speed is much worse this gen, thanks to the sheer number of 101+ pokes introduced this gen. Landlos, Kojondo, (Kerudio,) Virizion, Terrakion, Denchura, Voltolos, Jalorda, all outspeed and can ohko or do a lot of damage. And thats not even counting new common scarfers, such as Sazandora (and Genosecto).

 

[Ice-eyes]

Tail Glow Manaphy isn't really all that outside of Rain. It still doesn't have the power to beat Nattorei, it gets worn down easily and there are a huge number of faster things that can hit it hard, like Lati@s, Garchomp, Landlos, Birijion, Terakion etc.

 

[jrp]

Anything with a +3 no-downside boosting move with good stab and decent stats is still powerful though.
Manaphy has decent enough bulk to get enough boosts, even if it needs to resort to a rest talk set to acomplish that, if not being used in the rain. Hell, if you went bold/calm with max investments in defenses EV wise, it could still make great use of a tail glow set, being bulky enough to take hits.

 

[Barilzar]

Tail Glow Manaphy isn't really all that outside of Rain. It still doesn't have the power to beat Nattorei, it gets worn down easily and there are a huge number of faster things that can hit it hard, like Lati@s, Garchomp, Landlos, Birijion, Terakion etc.

And rain is manageable without Manaphy. I say fuck Manaphy rather than destroy an entire playstyle.

 

[Ice-eyes]

Rain would probably still be broken without Manaphy. Drizzle is really not good for the metagame, it's pretty broken and I think it needs to be removed.

@jonathan, I didn't say Manaphy was bad.

 

[astrohawke]

And rain is manageable without Manaphy. I say fuck Manaphy rather than destroy an entire playstyle.

Rain is not manageable without manaphy. I don't even really consider manaphy when talking about rain because I've been playing a lot on the PO server where manaphy is already banned.

A team of politoed + 3 or 4 rain abusers + nattorei for coverage still tears through most teams that are not specifically prepared to deal with rain. The only thing that threatens my team is a good player using sand who has a good team matchup.

Any other team is promptly ripped apart because they have nothing to outspeed and very little that can tank continuous rain boosted stab waterfalls and hydro pumps.

 

[alphatron]

Deoxys-defense form is shut down by taunt when not running magic coat. And when he is, tricking his a choice item (as with all walls) takes him out.

 

[JSND]

deo d shut defensive walls easily though. Hes easily my MVP before

 

[Benlisted]

While I'm heartened to see that Drizzle did not get a supermajority last round, the responses of the people in the thread on its subject depress me somewhat.

I agree wholeheartedly with Barilzar, and implore voters to not ban Drizzle, thereby rendering several playstyles utterly unviable in OU, but instead to consider banning its abusers - if need be any or all of Manaphy, Kingdra, Kabutops, and Ludicolo. Without these pokes Rain offense would be using Gorebyss, Omastar, Floatzel, and Qwilfish, who are all viable in OU but nowhere near as overpowering as a team consisting of the former; being weaker, of worse typing, worse movepool or slower. Just stop and consider if you think Drizzle would still be broken if it were forced to use these pokes, maybe even try a team of these out for yourself. Yes this would take more time in testing and more effort, but surely at the start of a new meta the last thing we want to do is to ban a suspect for simplicity's sake when there are alternatives. Or to do so because a meta with multiple weathers being a powerful force is undesirable to you.

On another note, Sun is being seriously underestimated by many posters in this thread. As SJCrew and others attest to, it is a different more balanced playstyle than Rain, but it is by no means weak or short of abusers. Try it yourself if you doubt this, don't rely on people using awful Sun teams against you to form your opinion.

 

[jrp]

While I'm heartened to see that Drizzle did not get a supermajority last round, the responses of the people in the thread on its subject depress me somewhat.

I agree wholeheartedly with Barilzar, and implore voters to not ban Drizzle, thereby rendering several playstyles utterly unviable in OU, but instead to consider banning its abusers - if need be any or all of Manaphy, Kingdra, Kabutops, and Ludicolo. Without these pokes Rain offense would be using Gorebyss, Omastar, Floatzel, and Qwilfish, who are all viable in OU but nowhere near as overpowering as a team consisting of the former; being weaker, of worse typing, worse movepool or slower. Just stop and consider if you think Drizzle would still be broken if it were forced to use these pokes, maybe even try a team of these out for yourself. Yes this would take more time in testing and more effort, but surely at the start of a new meta the last thing we want to do is to ban a suspect for simplicity's sake when there are alternatives. Or to do so because a meta with multiple weathers being a powerful force is undesirable to you.

On another note, Sun is being seriously underestimated by many posters in this thread. As SJCrew and others attest to, it is a different more balanced playstyle than Rain, but it is by no means weak or short of abusers. Try it yourself if you doubt this, don't rely on people using awful Sun teams against you to form your opinion.

Banning the abusers? Bad idea. Kingdra can be used outside a rain team, as can a lot of the abusers.

That's like saying that if trick room somehow became unbelievably overpowered, you should ban all pokemon with under base 60 speed.

 

[ToF]

Is it bad that I'm winning without a weather changer or abuser on my team? I think that says something about the apparent "brokenness" of Rain Dance or Sandstorm teams. I just see Rain Dance teams as some high-quality HO teams that are dealt in the same exact way as regular Azelf-lead HO teams - you predict well and you slowly dwindle away health. In the case of Manaphy, yes you need something to get rid of it before it sweeps you, and you likely need two things (Nattorei isn't enough with the prevalence of Magnezone on Rain teams). But other than Manaphy, everything else on a standard Rain Dance team has ways to be dealt with. I don't know, just something I've noticed after playing a day on the ladder against a plethora of rain teams.

 

[jrp]

Is it bad that I'm winning without a weather changer or abuser on my team? I think that says something about the apparent "brokenness" of Rain Dance or Sandstorm teams. I just see Rain Dance teams as some high-quality HO teams that are dealt in the same exact way as regular Azelf-lead HO teams - you predict well and you slowly dwindle away health. In the case of Manaphy, yes you need something to get rid of it before it sweeps you, and you likely need two things (Nattorei isn't enough with the prevalence of Magnezone on Rain teams). But other than Manaphy, everything else on a standard Rain Dance team has ways to be dealt with. I don't know, just something I've noticed after playing a day on the ladder against a plethora of rain teams.

Honestly, it makes you better imo if you can win using a standard team, not trying to spam swift swimmers. It means that a standard team should still be well... Standard, lol

 

[Redjar]

While I'm heartened to see that Drizzle did not get a supermajority last round, the responses of the people in the thread on its subject depress me somewhat.

I agree wholeheartedly with Barilzar, and implore voters to not ban Drizzle, thereby rendering several playstyles utterly unviable in OU, but instead to consider banning its abusers - if need be any or all of Manaphy, Kingdra, Kabutops, and Ludicolo. Without these pokes Rain offense would be using Gorebyss, Omastar, Floatzel, and Qwilfish, who are all viable in OU but nowhere near as overpowering as a team consisting of the former; being weaker, of worse typing, worse movepool or slower. Just stop and consider if you think Drizzle would still be broken if it were forced to use these pokes, maybe even try a team of these out for yourself. Yes this would take more time in testing and more effort, but surely at the start of a new meta the last thing we want to do is to ban a suspect for simplicity's sake when there are alternatives. Or to do so because a meta with multiple weathers being a powerful force is undesirable to you.

On another note, Sun is being seriously underestimated by many posters in this thread. As SJCrew and others attest to, it is a different more balanced playstyle than Rain, but it is by no means weak or short of abusers. Try it yourself if you doubt this, don't rely on people using awful Sun teams against you to form your opinion.

So instead of banning 1 poke you want to ban 4-5? To ubers? That would have no business being there. DD Kingdra is a great poke regardless of rain and none Ludi and Kabu aren't anywhere near ubers material. I don't wanna ban drizzle but if this is what is being proposed than I'd rather drizzle be banned than it's highest abusers. Although I don't think it should be.

 

[moe1216]

The only problem I've seen with rain is that it has manaphy and that people are still using gen iv sets with rain dance as a move. Sure the need for them may not be as great, but with the weather wars taking place, Rain is gaining ground because it can have one permanent summoner and two of three temporary summoners like Kingdra and Ludicolo. What basically needs to be done is to make sets for pokes that counter weather and set up weather that supports your team. If rain, sun, and hail have it why can't sand? If it's that big of a problem do something besides trying to ban it. Make strategies, plan ahead, and be prepared. This is Smogon for crying out loud! The site where supposedly the best strategies and players thrive. If we can't find a way to beat rain without banning the hell out of it, then what does that say about the site?

 

[jrp]

With your logic, there shouldn't be tiers at all. Does that mean that we should just let all the ubers be in the standard tier because we have the best strategists and players? so we should just deal with them?

 

[moe1216]

That's not what I meant. What I meant was that it's rain. It's a playing style that can be countered and worked around despite the power it carries. Just because it is a strong style doesn't mean it needs to be banned. It just gives players another thing to watch out for alongside Sun, Sand, Hail, Set up, and Stall.

 

[jrp]

Honestly, from my opinion, the only weather that HASN'T become overpowered in this gen is hail. The only thing it does is give an ice body healing, and make blizzard 100% accurate. As well as snow cloak.

Rain, sandstorm and sun are different issues.

Rain users have: rain dish, hydration, swift swim.
Sun users get: chlorophyl, solar power, leaf guard, flower gift
Sandstorm users have: Sand throw, sand power, sand veil.

Now in the case of sandstorm, a ban is unnecisary because of tyranitar having uses besides setting up the storm. However, once t-tar/hippowdon (does hippo get a dream world ability?) I can see them warrenting a ban because sand would no longer be mandatory to use with them.

Back to the rain issue. Rain has a shitload of more easy-to-abuse pokemon then sun. I'm sorry, but I will never fear your solar power charizard if I have rocks up. Venusaur can be taken out by espeon with magic mirror if they try to sleep powder. With rain, none of the abusers are weak to SR, and they all have no reliable way to check them outside of a Cloud Nine pokemon.

Another rain team problem. golduck should be able to OHKO ninetales and hippowdon, and tyranitar with Hydro Pump, seeing as their weather was nulled out. (I'm guessing a modest/timid 252 special attack specs should do it). But it can't do much against politoed.

 

[moe1216]

Believe me you are absolutely right. Rain has a plethora of pokes that can abuse it without end. I also remember golduck. I ran a SS team back in Gen IV and a good friend of mine used a rain team. He ran Golduck so he could keep my weather summoners out while it set up rain dance or swept. My question is this Jonathan and I'm not trying to be annoying or rude so I hope I haven't come across that. Isn't it possible to run pokes that have the move sand storm? I mean back in Gen IV that was the only way Rain could compete with Sand even for a few rounds, which is all it takes to turn the tide of any battle, so couldn't sand do the same? I ran a Nattorei with Sand Storm and it pretty much ruined his team thanks to some nice support from Burungeru.

 

[Farukon_o_miru]

And why don´t you just ban the broken abilities of weather abuse? (Swift Swim, Sandthrow, Chlorophyll, Hydration and perhaps Sandveil), you have to think that if we ban Drizzle, the metagame will be unbalanced in favor of Sandthrow and Chlorophyll abusers, and if Shadow Tag Shandera is released it will be even more unbalanced, the only thing that stop Shandera of being more used (in the DW tiers at least) is rain (Shandera is very useful in sun teams and it can be used in some sand teams for fighting against some counters of Doryuuzu), then you will need ban Sandthrow, Chlorophyll and Shadow Tag and then you will have a 4th gen 2.0 metagame, perhaps the metagame will be more balanced (and it won´t need many more bans) if you ban only the weather-abuse abilities and don´t ban auto-weather abilities.

 

[jrp]

Because the abilities would be downright useless if they didn't have any users.
And I agree, ban the abilities, but if you want to run sandstorm, rain dance or sunny day, you're welcome to.