Overconfidence doesn't get Outrage or Roost which is a damn shame but Overconfidence is too good to pass up on Mence. Dragon Claw will work well enough for me. Although it will be considerably weaker than a standard Mence before Overconfidence activates because of the huge BP drop and the fact that life orb is much less good on it now that it can't roost off the recoil from it.
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Salamence
- Thread starter Aerrow
- Start date
I'm new to competitive battling scene, with most of my experience being in-game, but I was wondering if Dragon Rush might not be a reasonable replacement for Outrage on the OC Salamence set? A flinch opportunity is always good, but is the accuracy to shaky to risk it?
Dragon Rush is generally frowned upon because of its terrible 75% accuracy, yes. The 20 base drop in power is worth the 100% accuracy for Dragon Claw, and the confusion isn't bad enough to offset the 20 base rise in power for Outrage (even though it can't use it on an OC set).
Poor Dragon Rush is stuck in the middle.
Thanks for clearing that up-I can definitely see where the poor accuracy will generally kill the usability of Dragon Rush. I was just throwing that up as a possibility since the biggest complaint for OCmence (as far as moves go) was the low power of Dragon Claw.
For all we know, Dream World Salamence may be able to get Outrage regardless, as a bonus move.
My favorite moveset for Salamence is Draco Meteor, Earthquake, Fire Blast and Outrage with Life Orb and Intimidate, allowing it to fire off destructive assaults with a powerful combination of physical and special moves, with quite a high Speed too.
However, if Salamence somehow gains the ability to have both Outrage and Overconfidence at the same time, then my favorite moveset for it would probably be a Choice Scarf one, as that would allow it to be an excellent revenge-killer as well as a sweeper at the same time. The only downside is that its sweep could be easily stopped by Ice Shard users or a Choice Scarf Garchomp though, and this is especially devastating if they more than likely come in while Salamence is locked into Outrage, giving its trainer no choice but to accept it being knocked out.
However, if Salamence somehow gains the ability to have both Outrage and Overconfidence at the same time, then my favorite moveset for it would probably be a Choice Scarf one, as that would allow it to be an excellent revenge-killer as well as a sweeper at the same time. The only downside is that its sweep could be easily stopped by Ice Shard users or a Choice Scarf Garchomp though, and this is especially devastating if they more than likely come in while Salamence is locked into Outrage, giving its trainer no choice but to accept it being knocked out.
Endless Phaze
Salamence @ Choice Scarf/Leftovers
Overconfidence (or whatever its called) Jolly Nature
252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spd
-Sleep Talk
-Dragon Tail
-Fly
--
Switch in on a Sleep move after your team has set up SR/Spikes/Toxic Spikes/Any debilitating Statuses. Use Sleep Talk to lay down Dragon Tail hax without having to worry about Rest failures. Best use would probably be keeping Salamence out for only 2-3 turns, and then withdrawing it if its still asleep- Gen V mechanics mean its sleep counter will reset. Then just bring it out every time one of your Pokemon faint, making sure to withdraw it before sleep runs off.
Overconfidence in case Dragon Tail gets a KO. Leftovers if you're REALLY worried about Stealth Rock and Weather, but this set is all about Speed, so Choice Scarf is basically a necessity. Priority can wear him down as well, but the only major one to be worried about is Ice Shard. If you have issues with that, use Intimidate as the ability instead. Fly is just there so if he wakes up and it looks like Dragon Tail isn't going to cut it, you have an alternative move to fall back on. (Sleep Talk won't select Fly)
Basically, to run this, you're going to need a team that is already capable of keeping the field clear of SR/Spikes/ETC, while setting them up themselves. You'll probably also need something to counter common Ice Shard users. Mischievous Heart users can also cause some problems, but I don't think they commonly carry the moves that are most deadly to this set. There is also the major issue of facing an opponent that doesn't run Sleep... so this set may not be worth it.
This set is definitely gimmicky, but its more reliable than the majority of gimmicky sets I've seen. If you can get it to sleep, and are lucky enough not to have 1 turn of sleep, the effort of setting it up will more than pay for itself, and even if you can't get SR or spikes down, a couple of stab Dragon Tails every time one of your Pokemon goes down will quickly add up.
Salamence @ Choice Scarf/Leftovers
Overconfidence (or whatever its called) Jolly Nature
252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spd
-Sleep Talk
-Dragon Tail
-Fly
--
Switch in on a Sleep move after your team has set up SR/Spikes/Toxic Spikes/Any debilitating Statuses. Use Sleep Talk to lay down Dragon Tail hax without having to worry about Rest failures. Best use would probably be keeping Salamence out for only 2-3 turns, and then withdrawing it if its still asleep- Gen V mechanics mean its sleep counter will reset. Then just bring it out every time one of your Pokemon faint, making sure to withdraw it before sleep runs off.
Overconfidence in case Dragon Tail gets a KO. Leftovers if you're REALLY worried about Stealth Rock and Weather, but this set is all about Speed, so Choice Scarf is basically a necessity. Priority can wear him down as well, but the only major one to be worried about is Ice Shard. If you have issues with that, use Intimidate as the ability instead. Fly is just there so if he wakes up and it looks like Dragon Tail isn't going to cut it, you have an alternative move to fall back on. (Sleep Talk won't select Fly)
Basically, to run this, you're going to need a team that is already capable of keeping the field clear of SR/Spikes/ETC, while setting them up themselves. You'll probably also need something to counter common Ice Shard users. Mischievous Heart users can also cause some problems, but I don't think they commonly carry the moves that are most deadly to this set. There is also the major issue of facing an opponent that doesn't run Sleep... so this set may not be worth it.
This set is definitely gimmicky, but its more reliable than the majority of gimmicky sets I've seen. If you can get it to sleep, and are lucky enough not to have 1 turn of sleep, the effort of setting it up will more than pay for itself, and even if you can't get SR or spikes down, a couple of stab Dragon Tails every time one of your Pokemon goes down will quickly add up.
Sleep Talk ignores priority.
This is my problem with it. The idea is intriguing, but if the opponent doesn't have a sleeper, the speed is useless (unless you want to sweep with Choice Scarf...Fly...) and you miss having your excellent coverage. in any battle with no enemy sleeper, the traditional Mence sets are much much better. is this effective enough with enemy sleep to justify that? plus, he'd have to compete with 'traditional' Dragon Tail like Bulky MS Dragonite, who can still do a great job with hazards support even though he has to take hits in the process. if you assume BulkyNite can DT shuffle 2-3 pokemon a match before/without dying (which seems conservative enough to me) then he's already doing as good a job as you can expect this Mence to do in a match where he gets put to sleep. (Your opponent isn't going to Sleep him twice after they see what you're up to the first time!) The difference, of course, being that he would pull it off in every match.
Oh, Dragonite lasts a lot longer than that. With Multi-Scale+Roost, he can damn near last forever and an eternity. For example with 385 hp and 319 defense with Multi-Scale up, Vaporeon's Icebeam will not be 2 hit koing it and all you have to worry about is freeze. Seriously, an Icebeam. And it can stall Life Orb Starmie out with Roost+Multi-Scale up as long as it doesn't freeze until it dies. I don't see any reason on Earth to use Salamence over Dragonite using Dragon Tail. The only one is speed but considering how ridiculously bulky Dragonite is with Multi-Scale and Roost, the humongous surviveablity is far better than Salamence's more fragile defenses. Defensive Dragonite can also serves as a somewhat shaky check to Doryuzu (getting flinched can mean you're doomed but otherwise it could work).
Intimidate. Forces physical pokemon out, they get damaged by hazards. Dragon Tail, more hazard damage and you scout your switch-in.
But yeah, that's a less than wonderful set. Mence has better things to do.
But yeah, that's a less than wonderful set. Mence has better things to do.
It depends on what you are planning to switch mence into. Also, if you want to use him as a late game sweeper, Overconfidence is much more useful.
Guys, breaking news: Gamefreak will rename old pokemons. Salamence will be called Wingragon. Obviously fake. But could be true... we already have braviary.
Guys, breaking news: Gamefreak will rename old pokemons. Salamence will be called Wingragon. Obviously fake. But could be true... we already have braviary.
Wargle wasn't really "old" though :/
wtf
Interesting set, but I'd rather not use it because you'll never know if your opponent has things like Breloom, Morobareru or Darkrai to put Salamence to sleep. If Fly is in there, your opponent can always switch something else in (that resists Flying) to take the attack. Moxie/Overconfidence is better off for pure sweeping Choice Scarf sets, but sadly, it's illegal with Outrage.
This is a way better Dragon Tail set:
-Rest
-Sleep Talk
-Dragon Dance
-Dragon Tail
Nature: Careful
EVs: 252 HP/16 Def/216 SpD/24 Spe
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Salamence's Attack is already good even without EVs. The point of this set is to DD once or twice, Rest off any damage you take and Sleep Talk in your sleep to either boost with DD, phaze with Dragon Tail (as stated before, Sleep Talk ignores Dragon Tail's negative priority) or do nothing at all. I know that Dragonite can pull this off better due to better bulk, but Salamence has the initial Speed (and decent bulk if made that way) to pull this set off viably.
Okay so with that spread you achieve 394 HP / 306 Atk / 200 Def / 275 SpD / 242 Spe. With 252 HP / 72 SpD / 184 Spe, Careful, Dragonite reaches 386 HP / 304 Atk / 226 Def / 279 SpD / 242 Spe. The Attack is inconsequential, and the additional defense, special defense, and Multi Scale more than makes up for the lower HP. I'd say that spread is outclassed here.
That set (or some minor variation on it) was more or less what inspired the set I posted (That and an old Crobat gimmick I saw somewhere a long time ago). I do agree that that probably is a better set, but I like the few gameplay quirks my set takes advantage of. Food for thought at the very least.
What is ANY advantage to using this over dragonite? Dragonite is much bulkier, has multi-scale, is almost guarenteed a set up for at least a turn and can survive a vaporeon's ice beam, even without multi scale. Plus it can use outrage with dw
What does salamence have that dragonite doesn't? Better yet, what does salamence have that dragonite doesn't that makes mence BETTER than nite?
What does salamence have that dragonite doesn't? Better yet, what does salamence have that dragonite doesn't that makes mence BETTER than nite?
To answer your last question, better sweeping potential, higher speed, and an ever-so-slightly higher attack stat (by a grand total of 1!). On a response to dragon tail, I also agree that dragonite is better at using it. Additionally, Dragonite has roost. you could slash it with DD if your'e going to use restalk, for some recovery.
o_x I don't know how to respond to that. Might even sig it.
Uhm...wow. How does Nite beat mence at sweeping AT ALL?
Look. Even though I love Dragonite and would rather prefer to use him over Salamence for some of the reasons specified in both the Salamence and Dragonite thread, I feel you're taking this to a rather extreme angle. Salamence is very usable, and he can still be used over Dragonite without being called "outclassed". I would go into a rather large map of what Salamence has over Dragonite and why he should be used over said Dragon, but I have to go to dinner.
Hopefully someone covers for me. Salamence is in no absolute way outclassed by Dragonite.
...And who went to ubers in Gen IV? anyone? anyone? It specifically said in the Gen IV overview to not use nite as an inferior mence. Since Dragonite didn't gain much sweepingwise that mence didn't, the same still applies.
and moreover, nite has been taking more of the bulky road this gen. Mence got moxie, which raises its attack after every KO, while nite got multi scale which halves damage taken on max HP. two totally different things. nite has to stand by its usability as a mixed attacker and a wallbreaker, and even then, It has competition with sazandora and kyuremu.
and moreover, nite has been taking more of the bulky road this gen. Mence got moxie, which raises its attack after every KO, while nite got multi scale which halves damage taken on max HP. two totally different things. nite has to stand by its usability as a mixed attacker and a wallbreaker, and even then, It has competition with sazandora and kyuremu.
I'll do one better, Accidental. Here's a link to a warstory where one of the (very good) battlers makes excellent use of a Defensive Mence, and proves why Intimidate is probably the deciding factor in it's use whilst doing so: Linky
I'd also like to add that at present, with Lati@s, Chomp, and such still in OU, Mence's offensive sets are somewhat outclassed, as are Nite's. This battle I believe justifies the greatness of a defensive set on him, which is a useful new niche.
I'd also like to add that at present, with Lati@s, Chomp, and such still in OU, Mence's offensive sets are somewhat outclassed, as are Nite's. This battle I believe justifies the greatness of a defensive set on him, which is a useful new niche.