Are you considering Multiscale?
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Dragonite (Analysis)
- Thread starter capefeather
- Start date
Yes lol. Dragonite has no chance of surviving Draco Meteor without Multi-Scale XD
its not worth it. At that point you'd die from Sandstorm damage or the tiniest of priority, not to mention all the scarfers that are faster than a +1 Dragonite. It's just not worth taking that kind of attack just to set up. That is a fun fact to know for the defensive sets tho
Lol yeah it probably isn't necessary but the only reason why I even looked up the first place was because late-game (it was really end-game) I was down to Dragonite and the opponent sent in a Latios after a double KO. So I was wondering at this stage can I survive... and when I did I DDed and swept their team. So I ran a calc immediately and found that you can actually have a great chance to survive if you are in a similar pinch with a slight change in EVs.
You wouldn't stay in early on to take that kind of attack but it's the tight situations when you might need them and it's the tight situations that win or lose games. If Dragonite doesn't specifically need those Atk EVs then that spread might be worth considering. Just to put it out there to the community.
You wouldn't stay in early on to take that kind of attack but it's the tight situations when you might need them and it's the tight situations that win or lose games. If Dragonite doesn't specifically need those Atk EVs then that spread might be worth considering. Just to put it out there to the community.
That EV spread might be even more useful for those pesky Ice Beams tho.
The Latios scenario is funnier when you have a CB attached, I always go with 252 HP/252 Atk, that way I can survive the meteor and OHKO with Outrage.
Of course I will loose DNite during the next one or two turns, but let's face it, taking down Specs Latios seems like a nice deal, also, the next poke might be taking another Outrage right in their face and with a CB it's like 40~50% to Scizor or Heatran if I recall.
The Latios scenario is funnier when you have a CB attached, I always go with 252 HP/252 Atk, that way I can survive the meteor and OHKO with Outrage.
Of course I will loose DNite during the next one or two turns, but let's face it, taking down Specs Latios seems like a nice deal, also, the next poke might be taking another Outrage right in their face and with a CB it's like 40~50% to Scizor or Heatran if I recall.
OK, so, what I'm going to do is "lay low" on this for a while so that other Choice Scarf users get their chance to replace Garchomp. I don't want to lower the Speed EVs too much only to have something like Flygon gain popularity.
Any idea of who will cover up the ScarfChomp slot?
If it's anything above base 102 then just drop down those Spe EVs to outspeed some non-scarfed threats after 1 boost, such as Haxorus or Mence, maybe even Starmie. Or barely enough to outspeed base 60~80 Spe scarvers, such as TTar (much less common this gen) and Heatran after the same one boost.
On the other hand... if it's something on the lines of Flygon the Spe EVs need to be carefully adjusted I think, maybe changing to Jolly with less Spe EVs and pumping on Atk EVs (dunno if it's efficient), but the best option is stay under-radar and wait for the metagame to stabilize.
If it's anything above base 102 then just drop down those Spe EVs to outspeed some non-scarfed threats after 1 boost, such as Haxorus or Mence, maybe even Starmie. Or barely enough to outspeed base 60~80 Spe scarvers, such as TTar (much less common this gen) and Heatran after the same one boost.
On the other hand... if it's something on the lines of Flygon the Spe EVs need to be carefully adjusted I think, maybe changing to Jolly with less Spe EVs and pumping on Atk EVs (dunno if it's efficient), but the best option is stay under-radar and wait for the metagame to stabilize.
Scarf Flygon is a natural replacement but its effectiveness is yet to be fully tested.
At this early point in a Garchomp-less metagame I'm gonna tentatively say that dropping the Spe EVs down to 204 to outspeed +1 Base 100 Speed after two Dragon Dances is probably the most cautious approach. Outspeeds Flygon, Rachi and other base 100 scarfers at +2.
However dropping down another level with 184 Spe EVs is also a good target letting you outspeed Base 115 Pokemon after one Dragon Dance. Scarf Flygon and co will outspeed you after two Dragon Dances though so you are more vulnerable but Flygon's Outrage is easily survived with Multiscale and Rachi's Iron Head hopefully will be a 60% flinch letting you (on average) attack and KO in 3 attempts. After killing their scarfer, you still outspeed Starmie and friends at +1 so maybe 184 EVs is all you need. I'm testing both at the moment.
At this early point in a Garchomp-less metagame I'm gonna tentatively say that dropping the Spe EVs down to 204 to outspeed +1 Base 100 Speed after two Dragon Dances is probably the most cautious approach. Outspeeds Flygon, Rachi and other base 100 scarfers at +2.
However dropping down another level with 184 Spe EVs is also a good target letting you outspeed Base 115 Pokemon after one Dragon Dance. Scarf Flygon and co will outspeed you after two Dragon Dances though so you are more vulnerable but Flygon's Outrage is easily survived with Multiscale and Rachi's Iron Head hopefully will be a 60% flinch letting you (on average) attack and KO in 3 attempts. After killing their scarfer, you still outspeed Starmie and friends at +1 so maybe 184 EVs is all you need. I'm testing both at the moment.
Scarf Mienshao could also be a replacement, so we would need to buff up the Speed EVs in order to beat it. It requires 236 EVs, if I'm not mistaken.
Scarf Landorus is another distinct possibility, which would need 212 EVs.
I don't think we should go lower than 204 EVs, which is Scarfed base 100's.
And Scarf Liepard would never happen (Liepard in general won't ever happen), but it can be out-sped with 244 EVs.
Scarf Emolga is also a ridiculous thought, but it takes 224 EVs.
But, as capefeather (and some others) have said, let's just see what happens if we leave it alone.
Scarf Landorus is another distinct possibility, which would need 212 EVs.
I don't think we should go lower than 204 EVs, which is Scarfed base 100's.
And Scarf Liepard would never happen (Liepard in general won't ever happen), but it can be out-sped with 244 EVs.
Scarf Emolga is also a ridiculous thought, but it takes 224 EVs.
But, as capefeather (and some others) have said, let's just see what happens if we leave it alone.
Scarf Mienshao can't one shot you even with Stone Edge and everything else will do pitiful damage. Not sure if you can one shot him at +0 with DClaw or even Outrage, so he might KO you with 2 Stone Edges.
The biggest problem is with his U-turn that'll ruin your Multi-Scale (tho lefties might recover from it).
I believe the new magic number is between 204 and 184 EVs, somewhere around that interval. Also, we might try some tweaks with Jolly and Atk EVs and see what happens, tho if the total attack lowers too much from where it is, the trade might be inneficient.
Scarf Garchomp couldn't one-shot you with Outrage (with MultiScale), and you could kill it with D-Claw. By your logic, we shouldn't have tried to out-speed it.
Dragonite definitely cannot one-shot a Mienshao at +0, also.
lulzer, I think your idea would lower the Speed too much. It's too early to be certain about anything, but once Dragonite gets a couple boosts, MultiScale will almost certainly be broken. At that point, Nite pretty much has to go for the sweep (as the opponent will have something switched in which can threaten you, obviously). If he goes for the sweep and then gets screwed by a Scarfer, you could lose your hard work and depending on the scenario, possibly the match.
I mean, how much more power does he really need? It's not like he was too terribly weak at +2 even with the old spread. What notable KOes would you get with those extra Attack EVs?
Argh, I wish the Chomp-less meta would develop already!
I have been trying out the parashuffler with Fire Blast and 80 spA EVs over Thunder Wave on stall because I run Toxic Spikes, and its much more useful against other stall teams. 176 spD allows you to avoid 2HKOes from Gengar Shadow Ball and Venusaur's Sludge Bomb after SR and a 2hko on specially defensive Skarm (non spD gets fried). Forretress and Skarmory no longer set up for free so I would mention it on OO if QC agrees.
You need to outspeed after the 2nd boost outspeed for the following scenario: somehow you put DNite against something it will force a switch.
Turn 1: You set the first DD while the opponent switches to ScarfChomp.
Turn 2: He Outrages you while you set the 2nd DD.
Turn 3: You go first and KO.
Dragonite doesn't need to outspeed in the first turn, the 2nd turn is the important one. If Mienshao can 2HKO with Stone Edge and he becomes Chomp's replacement, please raise the Spe EVs, if he can't 2HKO and you can get 3 boosts, just lower them.
That last line sums it up.
DNite can't have a godamn spread without a proper metagame. He is made to counter everysingle thing but he needs those EVs in the right place. We will have to wait as there is no other way around it I think.
Same goes for my Kingdra analysis :(
Anyways, I think the best plan is to let major Garchomp-related EV spreads and analyses "lay low" for a month, preferably when the metagame has been reviewed and solidified. For now, it's a safe bet to keep the EV Spread for Scarf Landorus, and fortunately, some base 100 Scarf users, such as Flygon and Jirachi, aren't doing so hot in this metagame.
Anyways, I think the best plan is to let major Garchomp-related EV spreads and analyses "lay low" for a month, preferably when the metagame has been reviewed and solidified. For now, it's a safe bet to keep the EV Spread for Scarf Landorus, and fortunately, some base 100 Scarf users, such as Flygon and Jirachi, aren't doing so hot in this metagame.
edit: What AG said ^^^
tbh, I personally prefer Offensive DDNite w/ Roost and Lefties (to preserve MultiScale in Sandstorm).
Well, Mienshao has a shot at 2HKOing through MultiScale, but that's neither here nor there.
tbh, I personally prefer Offensive DDNite w/ Roost and Lefties (to preserve MultiScale in Sandstorm).
Jolly Scarf Terrakion outruns +2 max Speed Adamant Dragonite by one point. D'oh!
What if we go Jolly? Could DNite OHKO at +2?
EDIT: Made some calcs using PO and apparently Jolly DNite gets the jump on Scarf Terakion at +2 using 164 Spe EVs. Supposing we keep todays spread, with 252 HP and the rest on Atk, we will have 327 Atk against todays 345 (unboosted). Seems like a fair trade and Jolly > Adamant it seems.
EDIT 2: Dragonite can't OHKO with Dragon Claw at +2 using Leftovers, Jolly nature and 94 Atk EVs w/o prior dmg as with a max damage roll it'll deal 307 damage, when Terakion got 323 HP. Brick Break, Earthquake and Waterfall will all net the KO tho, but that'll cost your STAB option. Of course, Outrage will OHKO.
EDIT: Made some calcs using PO and apparently Jolly DNite gets the jump on Scarf Terakion at +2 using 164 Spe EVs. Supposing we keep todays spread, with 252 HP and the rest on Atk, we will have 327 Atk against todays 345 (unboosted). Seems like a fair trade and Jolly > Adamant it seems.
EDIT 2: Dragonite can't OHKO with Dragon Claw at +2 using Leftovers, Jolly nature and 94 Atk EVs w/o prior dmg as with a max damage roll it'll deal 307 damage, when Terakion got 323 HP. Brick Break, Earthquake and Waterfall will all net the KO tho, but that'll cost your STAB option. Of course, Outrage will OHKO.
Waterfall needs a slash in the Mixed Attacker (Rain) set.
Typed up a long response, but the site decided it would be cute to log me out rigt as I post it. >.>
Anyway, I haven't gotten to play for a couple weeks either, so I can't really speak for Lati@s. However, I think it would be best if Nite just ignores Terrakion. Scarf was Terrakion's least common set from my experience, and Terrakion itself isn't as common as Garchomp was. Furthermore, lulzer showed that you can't OHKO Terrakion with a +2 DClaw, which means he can beat you anyway. Also, there will always be something to outspeed. Why not beat Scarf Latia@s, or Scarf Thundurus, or Scarf Starmie... Using Jolly to "beat" Terrakion is just not worth the loss in power.
Anyway, I haven't gotten to play for a couple weeks either, so I can't really speak for Lati@s. However, I think it would be best if Nite just ignores Terrakion. Scarf was Terrakion's least common set from my experience, and Terrakion itself isn't as common as Garchomp was. Furthermore, lulzer showed that you can't OHKO Terrakion with a +2 DClaw, which means he can beat you anyway. Also, there will always be something to outspeed. Why not beat Scarf Latia@s, or Scarf Thundurus, or Scarf Starmie... Using Jolly to "beat" Terrakion is just not worth the loss in power.
I just wanted to point out that in the offensive dragonite set, this is wrong
[...] while Brick Break is consistent in all weather conditions, but is not as powerful as Fire Punch [...]
they are the same base power.
[...] while Brick Break is consistent in all weather conditions, but is not as powerful as Fire Punch [...]
they are the same base power.
sarcasm, premboy, sarcasm
What you just said was exactly my point, lol. It applies to Terrakion as well.
Well, actually it's 5 speed points above ScarfChomp, and would require 228 EVs to beat (with an Adamant nature).premboy95 said: