The RU Viability Ranking Thread

[Molk]

Hey, this isnt a full update, but i just wanted to let you all know that i've added some Pokemon to untested (there are just soo many things i think might have potential in the metagame, although some probably have more potential than others. I'll list the new untested mons and give a little blurb about all 3 and why i think they deserve a rank.

Added Lickilicky to untested
Added Rapidash to untested
Added Serperior to untested

Lickilicky Is a Pokemon i've been wanting to add to this list for a while now tbh, i just kept forgetting to add him on lol. So Lickilicky has pretty good stats all around, with especially high defensive stats to boot. Lickilicky's capable of running a wishpassing set just like Clefable, except it has more bulk overall, especially on the physical side, access to Dragon Tail for phazing purposes, a slightly larger Wish, and hits slightly harder with its Body Slam as well. Licki isnt limited to playing defensively though, it has a very wide movepool and its capable of doing a ton of things: one example would be running a Choice Band set, seperating itself from similar Pokemon such as Bouffalant with its superior bulk and access to exclusive moves such as Power Whip and Explosion, the latter of which is one of the strongest Attacks in the game. (it was also one of the best Nidoqueen counters in the tier while she was around, but that doesnt matter anymore...)

While Rapidash might seem to be outclassed by other Fire-type physical attackers such as Entei and Emboar at first, it has a few perks that help it stand out as a threat in its own right. For one thing, Rapidash is significantly faster then Entei, boasting a good base 105 Speed stat, while 100 isnt too far off from that, Entei's forced to run an Adamant Nature to use Flare Blitz, making the speed gap pretty significant, giving Rapidash the ability to outrun Moltres, Rotom, Lilligant, Drapion, Uxie, and Sigilyph among others, while also speed tying with Scyther, Manectric, and Cryogonal. Also, Rapidash has access to some cool moves that Entei and Emboar could only dream of, such as Drill Run, Megahorn, Hypnosis, Low Kick, and Morning Sun. The former two are especially important, giving Rapidash the ability to charge through two Pokemon well known to be big roadblocks for Rapidash's competition: Slowking and Lanturn. Not just does this make teams that rely on these two Pokemon to check Fire-types automatically weak to Rapidash, but it also makes Rapidash very effective on a double fire core, luring in and disposing of these Pokemon to help the other Fire-type clean up Lastly, Rapidash has access to Flash Fire, allowing it to check the other Fire-types in the tier such as Magmortar and Entei with some prediction, while simultaneously powering up its own Fire-type moves, do note though that Rapidash is very frail, and most coverage moves will 2HKO it at worst.

Serperior is a very odd Pokemon to say the least, at first glance it seems pretty outclassed by other offensive Grass-types such as Sceptile and Lilligant, but like Rapidash, it has a few perks that help it stand out. For one thing, Serperior comes equipped with significantly more bulk than both Sceptile and Lilligant, as well as a ton of support/boosting moves such as Taunt, Glare, Dragon Tail, Dual Screens, Coil, and Calm Mind, giving it more opportunities to switch in over the course of the match, and allowing it to play defensive and support roles more effectively then its competition. In a way, Serperior can function as middle ground between Sceptile and Lilligant, sharing defining aspects with both. It shares a much higher initial Speed stat and Overgrow with Sceptile, and the ability to boost its stats to become more threatening over the course of the match with Lilligant. This sort of "middle ground" role, as well as the ability to play its own, unique role thanks to its great support movepool and combination of bulk and speed makes me think that its perfectly deserving of its own rank.

EDIT: looking at its movepool a bit more, Serperior has Dragon Pulse too, meaning that Druddigon has a harder time beating it.

So what do you think of these three Pokemon, do you think they're worth adding, if so, where?

On Flareon, i havent used it in this meta yet, but given its performance in BW1 i'd say it probably deserves at least top D rank, i'll post later after i'm done testing it.

 

[JockeMS]

After using Gothorita, I'd like to nominate it for D rank.

The reasoning is quite simple and rather obvious. While trapping certain threats like Fighting-types for certain Fighting weak Pokémon is a neat thing to have, it's really, really situational. And that's all there is to Gothorita. It can't do anything else. Gothorita isn't the bulkiest nor the most powerful Pokémon around. It can't take hits without Eviolite, and it can't hit hard without some kind of boost through items or moves (or significant EV investment). It has no recovery outside of Rest and Leftovers is out of the question. It has really mediocre (if not bad) stats as well.

Gothorita shouldn't be used unless your team really need its Shadow Tag to remove certain threats and it can't doing anything else outside of that, hence the D rank.

If you want a more specific place I'd say top or at least mid D. The post is a bit short, but there's not really much to say. Hope it's good enough.

 

[Celever]

18:09 celeverr Because meganium has 100/100 in both stats as well as 80 in HP. This makes it a good mixed wall wheras the other three are physical or specially dedicated
18:09 celeverr Meganium is also much more unpredictable

Meganium should be low or mid C rank. (higher if you want) I know it isn't even in untested yet, but it is the only grass type phazer, has much more power than something like roselia and is, like said above, very unpredictable and a much better mixed wall than, say tangrowth the premier grass wall of RU given it's 50 base special attack. This makes a defensive grass type much less susceptible to absol who run fire blast. While amazing at 1v1 in NU, it can still hold a great spot on your team in 1v1 situations thanks to leech seed, toxic giga drain/synthesis and being able to wall both sides of the spectrum. It can also be a (very) bulky sweeper with swords dance which can absolutely sweep unprepared teams. I used it in RU for a while and think it is very much deserving of at least low C rank here.

 

[FortressDoor]

I have been using Rapidash in RU, and I think it actually desrves High C, maybe even Low B Rank (I might argue mid-B, but that might be pushing it). It is quite good in this meta.

The thing that sets Rapidash apart from Emboar and Entei is Rapidash's excellent speed. This allows it to spam its powerful Flare Blitzs more easily than Emboar.

In particular, I have been trying out Rapidash's Choice Scarf set. It may seem odd to Scarf something already so fast, but Scarf Rapidash pretty much outspeeds everything important, bar other Scarfers that are naturally faster (Sceptile, even though no one uses Choice Scarf on it, and Cinccino for some.) This allows Rapidash to pretty much revenge kill anything, that lacks priority. It's Choice Band set is also great.


For example. here is how Rapidash does against all of the S Rank

Rapidash's Choice Scarfed Wild Charge deals 60-70 % to Moltres, while its Choice Band set has a 48 % percent change to OHKO, and still outspeeds. Granted Rapidash is pretty shaking in it revenge killing Moltres, but prior damage means bye bye Moltres.

Rapidash's Choice Banded has a 56 % chance to OHKO standard 248 HP / 144 Def Slowking, while its CHoice Scarf set does around 60-70 as well. The fact Rapidash is a physical fire type attacker than can get around Slowking is pretty neat.

I don't even need to say how Rapidash deals with Sceptile. Sceptile needs an Unburden boost to outspeed Choice Scarfed Rapidash

Druddigon pretty much shits on Rapidash though, thanks to Druddigon's good bulk.

Escavalier. Lol.

Against Standard Pyshical Entei, Rapidash's Choice Scarf set only has a 28 % chance to 2HKO Entei with Drill Run, which is disappointing, but the Choice Band set nearly always OHKO's with Drill Run after Rock damage.

Uxie: 252Atk Rapidash (+Atk) Megahorn vs 252HP/152 Def Levitate Uxie (+Def): 44% - 51% (156 - 184 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 6% chance to 2HKO. That's a bit sad, but with a Choice Band Rapidash does quite a bit more, though Uxie will still either get rocks up or unleash a powerful attack on Rapidash.

I am not going to do all the A Ranks, but Rapidash does decently against them.

Don't mistake me for thinking Rapidash is a top level RU threat. Emboar, Entei, and Moltres all generally outclass it, but Rapidash could have a home in High C Rank. It has flaws, like bulky waters like Poliwrath and Laturn are a pain for Rapidash, and it takes some prediction to use him right. But he is still powerful.

 

[Molk]

K, time for a full update!

So, here are the changes i've made since the update to untested

Added Marowak to C rank

Added Volbeat to low C rank

Added Sandslash to low C rank

Added Hariyama to mid C rank

Added Drifblim to top C rank

Added Gothorita to D rank

Added Riolu to untested

remember, none of these changes are permanent, and if you disagree with one of the changes feel free to make an argument on why the pokemon in question should be placed somewhere else!

Anyway, you might've noticed that i added a fourth, possibly controversial mon to untested, and to some of you it might look kind of odd to add a LC Pokemon to the untested list, but i guarentee you, Riolu has the potential to be devastating when used correctly, and i think its probably worthy of at least low D rank because of this, here's a little blurb on what riolu can do for those who may be wondering:

Despite its low stats and NFE status, Riolu's perfectly capable of doing surprising amounts of damage to the opposing team thanks to one thing: Prankster Copycat+Roar. While other Pokemon with Prankster might get phazing moves, they arent used very often on them because they still have negative priority even with the Prankster. Riolu, however, is completely different, after the initial Roar Riolu has the ability to use Copycat (which unlike roar, gets increased priority with Prankster) to rapidly phaze the opposing team into oblivion until its either stopped via the use of faster priority/Protect or Copycat runs out on PP, racking up residual damage entry hazards its teammates have set in the process. Even if the opponent hasnt lost/forfeited by the time Riolu runs out of Copycat PP, they still wont be in any condition to take on the rest of the Riolu user's team. Copycat can be useful in other instances as well, allowing Riolu to copy support moves such as Wish, Stealth Rock, Spikes, Taunt, Substitute, and Heal Bell, and even gives Riolu the capability to pick off various weakened offensive Pokemon by copycatting the last move they used. Of course Riolu isnt without its flaws, although it has the potential to do a ton of damage when played properly, it needs a lot of support to do its job, so much in fact that i often find Riolu based teams just falling apart once the opponent thwarts Riolu's setup, which is never a good thing, although this can be avoided with careful play and the possibility of using a secondary win condition just in case something happens to Riolu early on. Despite this, i think that Riolu poses enough of a threat to be placed on the list, probably somewhere in D rank, but i wouldnt be against moving it higher or removing it from the list if you can back up your arguments either way.

 

[Cherub Agent]

Celever as I said on IRC, I don't agree with Meganium being C rank, or even being ranked at all :/

First you have to ask yourself, why am I using Meganium over something else? And I really cannot find an answer to that question. The fact is that RU has access to a massive amount of Grass-types who all outclass Meganium at something. There's no point in Meganium going physically defensive, as Tangrowth completely eclipses it due to far higher bulk, offenses, Regenerator and Sleep Power. Leech Seed also allows it to pseudo haze, which gives even Dragon Tail competition.

And making Meganium specially defensive gives it immediate competition with Roselia, who also sports Spikes, a Fighting resistance and more power. Then you say that Meganium is a better mixed wall than these two. Personally, I'd far prefer using Amoonguss or Ferroseed for this purpose: the former has Spore, Regenerator and the ability to absorb Toxic Spikes, while Ferroseed has Spikes and that Steel-typing.

Lastly, regarding a bulky Swords Dance sweeper, I'd prefer to use Leafeon (who isn't even that remarkable tbh) which sports higher Attack, Speed and to top it off more physical bulk. It also has a stronger STAB move in Leaf Blade, as well as utility moves such as Wish, Roar and Baton Pass.

 

[Nicolaibalu]

After some testing with Lickilicky i would like to nominate it for low C rank.
Here is why:
Lickilicky's main competition for bulky normal types is Clefable. He is very similiar to Clefable because they have both acces to a wide variety of support moves and also offensive options. That's why i am going to argue the ranking of Lickilicky based on the position of Clefable.

So what are the pro's and con's for Licki exactly?
Pro's
-Bigger wishes
-Takes physical hits better
-Good attack stat which he can take advantage of with some great and unique options which includes but is not limited to Power Whip, EQ and Hammer Arm
-Many boosting move options like SD and Curse
-Acces to a phazing move in Dragon Tail
[-Strongest Explosion lol]

Con's
-Bad or situational Abilitys (unlike Clefable)
-No "one turn recovery" move like Recover or Softboiled (only Rest)
-Vulnerability to entry hazards and status

Final verdict
As a pure support pokemon he is outclassed by Clefable because of Magic Guard. But his other traits make up for it at least a little. This is why i nominate Lickilicky for low C ranking.

Note: Sorry if I made any english mistakes, its not my first language but it should be readable i hope :]

 

[Kyuzeth]

18:09 celeverr Because meganium has 100/100 in both stats as well as 80 in HP. This makes it a good mixed wall wheras the other three are physical or specially dedicated
18:09 celeverr Meganium is also much more unpredictable

Meganium should be low or mid C rank. (higher if you want) I know it isn't even in untested yet, but it is the only grass type phazer, has much more power than something like roselia and is, like said above, very unpredictable and a much better mixed wall than, say tangrowth the premier grass wall of RU given it's 50 base special attack. This makes a defensive grass type much less susceptible to absol who run fire blast. While amazing at 1v1 in NU, it can still hold a great spot on your team in 1v1 situations thanks to leech seed, toxic giga drain/synthesis and being able to wall both sides of the spectrum. It can also be a (very) bulky sweeper with swords dance which can absolutely sweep unprepared teams. I used it in RU for a while and think it is very much deserving of at least low C rank here.

Serperior has a much wider support movepool and does everything Meganium does and better.
Serperior can also phaze thanks to Dragon Tail, so Meganium's not the only Grass-type phazer.

 

[Celever]

Serperior has a much wider support movepool and does everything Meganium does and better.
Serperior can also phaze thanks to Dragon Tail, so Meganium's not the only Grass-type phazer.

Serperior doesn't phaze better than meganium..?
They have the same movepools for phazing but meganium is bulkier, and dragon tail has negative priority so the larger speed doesn't help.

@Cherub, something it has over roselia is being neutral to psychic rather than immune and having a resistance to ground, as well as the ability to phaze and being able to go physical. Despite both being bulky grass types, they do fairly different things.

You may prefer amoonguss, but it doesn't take away from the things that meganium has over amoonguss. Again, being bulkier any way you look at it and again having the things that pure grass has over grass/poison gives it advantages in some respects. I'm not saying by any means that Amoonguss is worse than meganium, I'm saying, once again, that they have different places on different teams.

Also leafeon has really bad special defense, but either are pretty good choices.

 

[Nicolaibalu]

I think Smeargle should be low B ranking at best. The description of B rank suits him much better then A.

Reserved for Pokemon who are great in the RU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

So what are these "notable flaws"? Depending on the set used here are things that will work against it pretty reliable:
Fake out, multi-hit attacks, u-turn, volt-switch, sap sipper, whirlwind, roar, dragon tail, taunt, priority moves, lum berry, sleep talk, substitute, vital spirit, insomnia, magic bounce, magic coat and to a lesser extent scald burns. EDIT: I forgot Chesto Berry, Haze and Unaware (maybe even clearsmog). EDIT2: And hail (or even sandstorm)

Note that some things on this list are meant to be used in combination with others from the list for example: Volt-switch/U-turn+sleep talk/vital spirit/insomnia/sap sipper.

Now you might say "but if i predict correctly i still get up stealth rocks!". Well yeah you do, but that has nothing to do with Smeargle but more with the item focus sash itself.

The fact that Smeargle has only this "one time use" forces you to lead with him (entry hazards destroy his sash). And things like Cinccino just straight up kill it.

Smeargle isnt all bad since it can be very damaging to unprepared teams, but i just think it has flaws that cant be overlooked therefore i would like to see it low B instead of high A.

 

[ss234]

Smeargle is absolutely amazing at what it does, and if anything should be low S rank rather than B rank. It is incredibly easy to spore a pokemon and set up a layer of entry hazards vs. offensive teams, which basically means one poke is out of action and you get a layer of hazards up. Against slower teams, smeargle can get up spikes and sr, which makes for a very easy win if you can take advantage of these entry hazards. Also you certainly do not have to lead with smeargle-it is incredibly easy to bring smeargle in after a kill or a double switch into something slower, such as slowking, amoonguss, tangrowth etc. and either spore or set-up hazards. It's also quite easy to keep SR or spikes off the field if you play aggressively and of course the best spinner in ru beats all the spin-blockers(kabutops if you're wondering). Ok so many teams do have ways around smeargle-kangaskhan, cincinno and faster Lum Berry users spring to mind. However, none of these can stop smeargle getting a layer mid game, or when its not a 1 on 1 situation if its sash is intact still. The fact that all good teams must have an answer to smeargle (i.e. something to absorb a spore and also stop it from getting 2 layers) also means imo that smeargle is a huge threat that every team needs to prepare for, just like blizz spammers and entei. Smeargle can also run a deadly baton pass set, and this can turn pokes into absolute nightmares to handle, such as moltres or aggron at +2 speed and special attack / attack.

A Rank:Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the RU metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits.

This fits smeargle to a tee imo. It is absolutely brilliant at what it does, i.e. supporting a team, and it doesn't require much support at all really and it does have few flaws really, as very few pokemon can stop smeargle from doing its job. Smeargle is fine in High A rank.

 

[Nicolaibalu]

Smeargle is absolutely amazing at what it does, and if anything should be low S rank rather than B rank. It is incredibly easy to spore a pokemon and set up a layer of entry hazards vs. offensive teams, which basically means one poke is out of action and you get a layer of hazards up. Against slower teams, smeargle can get up spikes and sr, which makes for a very easy win if you can take advantage of these entry hazards. Also you certainly do not have to lead with smeargle-it is incredibly easy to bring smeargle in after a kill or a double switch into something slower, such as slowking, amoonguss, tangrowth etc. and either spore or set-up hazards. It's also quite easy to keep SR or spikes off the field if you play aggressively and of course the best spinner in ru beats all the spin-blockers(kabutops if you're wondering). Ok so many teams do have ways around smeargle-kangaskhan, cincinno and faster Lum Berry users spring to mind. However, none of these can stop smeargle getting a layer mid game, or when its not a 1 on 1 situation if its sash is intact still. The fact that all good teams must have an answer to smeargle (i.e. something to absorb a spore and also stop it from getting 2 layers) also means imo that smeargle is a huge threat that every team needs to prepare for, just like blizz spammers and entei. Smeargle can also run a deadly baton pass set, and this can turn pokes into absolute nightmares to handle, such as moltres or aggron at +2 speed and special attack / attack.

A Rank:Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the RU metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits.

This fits smeargle to a tee imo. It is absolutely brilliant at what it does, i.e. supporting a team, and it doesn't require much support at all really and it does have few flaws really, as very few pokemon can stop smeargle from doing its job. Smeargle is fine in High A rank.

Here is why i think you overrate Smeargle completely:
While i do agree that you cant fully stop it to set up a layer of spikes midgame, its complete nonsense to have an entire pokemon slot, just for a layer of spikes. If you want this layer you might aswell use Scolipede which unlike smeargle actually has stats which gives him reuseability when his sash is broken.
You mentioned all good team must have an answer for it. Well while this is true the best ways to counter it are also worth it to counter many other things. For example, having a pokemon with sap sipper doesnt only counter smeargle but pretty much stops all other grass types in the tier which means you can counter it without even trying. If your team has no priority move, no phazing move, no spinner and no pokemon you could use as sleep fodder, you just simply dont have a good team and will lose to a lot of other stuff other than smeargle. There are good choices for sleep inducers in RU other than Smeargle. For entry hazards theres not much that can stop uxie from doing so, or if you want to play hyper offensive, Scolipede and Accelgor do Smeargle's entry hazard setting much better. And again, they actually have stats.
For the baton passing set: Every solid team needs to be able to handle baton pass, that doesnt only apply to RU with Smeargle.

And you mentioned Kabutops beating every Spinblocker in the tier. Well that makes Smeargle as a entry hazard user even more redundant if you will only find your hazards that you sacrified a pokemon slot for, rapid spun away. Because again, Smeargle rarely has the opportunity or the ability to do things multiple times during a match.

But please note, im not saying you are wrong, i just have a different opinion because i smashed every team that ran smeargle with ease without even trying to counter it while building a team.

 

[Laikue]

I completely agree with Smeargle dropping to Low B, or rather I believe it deserves a High C at best, for pretty much everything that Nicolaibalu said, so many things can bring it down so easily. Bouffalant, Entei, Kabutops, Cinccino, and Amoongus are just some of the things that can easily destroy Smeargle (Especially in the case of Cinccino, and Bouffalant). In addition to this Smeargle is a painfully obvious Lead, the second you see him on the team preview, you know that your opponent is going to lead with him. From experience Fighting with, and against him, I saw that even if he does manage to get a spore off, unless he has Substitute, or Thunder Wave, the Pokemon who comes out next will destroy him (and sometimes it doesn't matter if he has either of those moves.) With his trick room set...... it's a Level One Pokemon. Any priority will beat it, period. Smeargle can be annoying if you don't take it seriously, but so long as you have Cinccino, or any form of priority, you'll be ok. In Conclusion Smeargle is Gimmicky Baton Passer at it's core, and he just can't take down people who are smart enough to switch. But he is devastating to unprepared teams. I vote for him to go down to High C.

 

[mkizzy]

Smeargle definitely should retain its current rank, it's a great mon. It's not meant to stay alive for long, it's a suicide lead that's meant to get as many hazards up as possible, which few pokemon stop it from doing. Smeargle also requires absolutely no support to do it's job correctly, which is hazard setting.

In addition to this Smeargle is a painfully obvious Lead, the second you see him on the team preview, you know that your opponent is going to lead with him.

Not quite, as Silvershadow234 previously said, it's possible to get hazards later on in the match after a kill or double switch. Smeargle is also a really easy pokemon to use, not really required to predict that much or anything. Also, it is not 'complete nonsense' to have an entire pokemon dedicated towards hazards. Hazards can be complete game changers for the user, especially multiple layers that can be put down after a Spore.

 

[complete legitimacy]

Smeargle definitely deserves High A. It's pretty much guaranteed to put something to sleep (which is practically KOing it) and get up Stealth Rock, while usually getting a layer or two of Spikes as well. Priority isn't especially helpful for beating Smeargle, so I don't why that's being brought up. Using anything faster than it has the same effect. Using Smeargle isn't "using one Pokemon just for a layer of Spikes," it's starting the game up 6-5 a lot of times while having multiple layers of hazards. You can't set up on Smeargle either, as Whirlwind is the best option in the last slot and as such is commonly used. While it's true that Kabutops and Cryogonal can beat all spinblockers, they both have easily exploitable weaknesses and aren't particularly fond of hazards themselves. In fact, I'd say that Smeargle could be a potential suspect if the spinners weren't so good.

The reason to use Smeargle over any other hazard lead is because it can set up both Stealth Rock and Spikes, and it also has Spore and Whirlwind to differentiate it from Crustle and Omastar. Before Nidoqueen, it was arguably the best lead for an offensive team, and now that Nidoqueen's gone again, it's only getting better on offensive teams. Also, Bouffalant is slower than Smeargle, so it still gets up Stealth Rock and Spikes. The only real way of stopping Smeargle from putting something to sleep and getting up no hazards is by using Cinccino or something like Jynx, and who would leave Smeargle in on them anyway.

 

[Nicolaibalu]

It's pretty much guaranteed to put something to sleep (which is practically KOing it)

It is not more guaranteed to put something to sleep than Amoongus and "practically KOing it" is just naive imo...
From my experience Smeargle is just a complete "pub stomper" but fails to do anything vital if the opponent knows what he is doing (at least a little).

The only real way of stopping Smeargle from putting something to sleep and getting up no hazards is by using Cinccino or something like Jynx, and who would leave Smeargle in on them anyway.

If you go one page back in this threat you will find a complete list of good answers to Smeargle. There are far more choices then just Cinccino and Jynx...

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Smeargle will always be sure to get one Spore in, and it is the sleep mechanics that make it a literal KO (the mechanics ensure that if they switch out they will practically never wake up). Smeargle is kinda like Deoxys-D in a way; it sets up hazards in the face of most Pokemon. It will always die in the match; but by the time the opponent kills it it has done its job; set up hazards. Not many Pokemon can really stop it from doing that; in fact, Smeargle along with things like Snover and Scolipede are part of the reason for Cinccino's rise to power (aside from the fact that Cinc is obscenely powerful). The lone fact that Smeargle can incapacitate and opponent with Spore sets it apart from other suicide hazard setters such as Scolipede and Crustle. Having a hazards lead is pretty much Smeargle's job; it is one of the key players to offensive teams to get the match going. Smeargle is always death fodder but like other leads its job pretty much has the match set.

Of course every Pokemon have their counters, but that shouldn't disqualify Smeargle from being Top A-Rank. Smeargle is the ultimate hazard setter and is a must on almost every offensive team. What Smeargle does in every match is huge, and setting up two of the best moves in the game is a large-scale support that can be considered "supporting significant portions of the metagame". Smeargle is so good it deserves to stay in Top A-Rank.

Anyways, on another topic, Charizard should definitely be Top C. The thing just decimates teams like a boss in the sun, and its power makes it extremely destructive. Charizard has a lovely Speed tier as well, so it can outspeed quite a few things. It has solid coverage making it extremely difficult to wall and can wreck up shit like there's no tomorrow. It's SR weak and easy to wear down though, and somewhat dependent on sun, but with optimal team support Charizard can function really well in RU

 

[Nicolaibalu]

Since i have been arguing about Smeargle being bad for the last 2 pages i will not say anything further to it (I said everything that had to be said).

I agree that Charizard would fit well in Top C. Its basicly a worse Moltres without sun and a better Moltres in the sun in my opinion.
Proper support makes it function very well which makes top C ranking a perfect fit for Charizard.

 

[complete legitimacy]

Smeargle is also a really easy pokemon to use, not really required to predict that much or anything.

This pretty much sums up Smeargle; you set up hazards on something slower and Spore when needed, against something faster you Spore first turn, and you don't Spore if your opponent is immune to sleep. If your opponent leads with something that beats Smeargle outright like Cinccino, you switch out.

In your list, you assume that Smeargle's goal is only using Spore to put something to sleep. Hardly any of the things that you mention actually stop Smeargle from getting up hazards. Smeargle's goal is to set up hazards. Spore is just a good asset that allows it to accomplish this more easily. Of course you have Pokemon to take sleep, but who says I have to use Spore when you lead with Bouffalant. I still get up two layers, and that's not really stopping Smeargle.

Also, comparing it to Amoonguss doesn't really accomplish anything, because Amoonguss doesn't set up hazards.

oh i was ninja'd twice three times, gdi

 

[Nicolaibalu]

In your list, you assume that Smeargle's goal is only using Spore to put something to sleep. Hardly any of the things that you mention actually stop Smeargle from getting up hazards. Smeargle's goal is to set up hazards. Spore is just a good asset that allows it to accomplish this more easily. Of course you have Pokemon to take sleep, but who says I have to use Spore when you lead with Bouffalant.

Just for setting up entry hazards their are a lot better options as I mentioned and a smart player wont lead with Bouffalant against Smeargle but rather U-turn/Volt-Switch to break his sash and then go into Bouffalant.

I still get up two layers, and that's not really stopping Smeargle.

Yes you probably do, but Accelgor/Scolipede would probably have done the same thing while Aerodactyl would have been able to keep entry hazards from your side of the field aswell. Scolipede also has the option to just put one layer out and then hit something slower with an insanely strong swarm boosted Megahorn. While Aerodactyl can go for an EQ or Stone Edge if he didnt have to use taunt or he might be faking the lead set completely because he actually has other options. Saying that Smeargle is versatile, isnt true either. Only because it can run Choice Banded V-Create doesnt mean it should.

Also, comparing it to Amoonguss doesn't really accomplish anything, because Amoonguss doesn't set up hazards.

I compared it to Amoonguss because people where arguing the position of Smeargle based on the access of Spore. While it is true that Smeargle is the fastest Spore user Amoonguss gets the chance to do so multiple times during a match because it has no sash that can be broken trough entry hazards and walls a good amount of pokes in this metagame.

 

[complete legitimacy]

Just for setting up entry hazards their are a lot better options as I mentioned and a smart player wont lead with Bouffalant against Smeargle but rather U-turn/Volt-Switch to break his sash and then go into Bouffalant.

Assuming that you are the smarter player doesn't work in an argument like this. Prediction goes both ways.

Yes you probably do, but Accelgor/Scolipede would probably have done the same thing while Aerodactyl would have been able to keep entry hazards from your side of the field aswell. Scolipede also has the option to just put one layer out and then hit something slower with an insanely strong swarm boosted Megahorn. While Aerodactyl can go for an EQ or Stone Edge if he didnt have to use taunt or he might be faking the lead set completely because he actually has other options. Saying that Smeargle is versatile, isnt true either. Only because it can run Choice Banded V-Create doesnt mean it should.

Yes, I'm aware of what Accelgor, Scolipede, and Aerodactyl are capable of. But why choose between Stealth Rock and Spikes? Using two mons on an offensive team for hazards doesn't usually work out, and Aerodactyl's lead set is easily its worst, and far inferior to Smeargle. Also, bringing up something completely irrelevant is just that: irrelevant. No, Smeargle cannot use V-Create effectively, but it can use Baton Pass effectively.

I compared it to Amoonguss because people where arguing the position of Smeargle based on the access of Spore. While it is true that Smeargle is the fastest Spore user Amoonguss gets the chance to do so multiple times during a match because it has no sash that can be broken trough entry hazards and walls a good amount of pokes in this metagame.

Sleep clause says otherwise.

 

[TROP]

Just for setting up entry hazards their are a lot better options as I mentioned and a smart player wont lead with Bouffalant against Smeargle but rather U-turn/Volt-Switch to break his sash and then go into Bouffalant.

And Smeargle will get sr+spikes in that scenario. Good job bro. I will be waiting for a better option for offensive teams that can guarantee both hazards and pretty much eliminate a mon with spore and/or prevent spins/set up if it really wants to.

Yes you probably do, but Accelgor/Scolipede would probably have done the same thing

They get both SR and spikes up while potentially sporing something? good to know.

while Aerodactyl would have been able to keep entry hazards from your side of the field aswell.

And this is relevant to smeargle because...? Smeargle is not even supposed to prevent hazards. His job when using the spiker set is getting as much of themas possible before dying. And Magic Coat smeargle can do what you will do with aerodactyl but better.

Scolipede also has the option to just put one layer out and then hit something slower with an insanely strong swarm boosted Megahorn.

While smeargle gets sr up first against pretty much anything slower with the option to spore next turn, get more hazards, and whilrwind to guarantee death of the spored mon if they dont have heal bell support, or exploding to prevent the only spinners worth using from doing their job.

While Aerodactyl can go for an EQ or Stone Edge if he didnt have to use taunt or he might be faking the lead set completely because he actually has other options.

And like smeargle, this fails against more offensive teams if attempted turn 1.

ying that Smeargle is versatile, isnt true either. Only because it can run Choice Banded V-Create doesnt mean it should.

Having at least 3 set(Spiker set, quiver dance passer, feargle) that do completely different things and all of them are pretty good is not good enough for you?lol. Sure taunt might stop smeargle, but it did the same to Deo-D in OU and everyone knew it was still amazing at its job.

I compared it to Amoonguss because people where arguing the position of Smeargle based on the access of Spore.

You compare a defensive mon to a quick support mon that is not meant to survive for longer than turn 5 at most? lol

While it is true that Smeargle is the fastest Spore user Amoonguss gets the chance to do so multiple times during a match because it has no sash that can be broken trough entry hazards and walls a good amount of pokes in this metagame.

I fail to understand why are you comparing a defensive mon to a mini Deo-D/Venomoth. They don't perform the same role at all.

This is what you should do:

more

 

[Nicolaibalu]

Quote:
I compared it to Amoonguss because people where arguing the position of Smeargle based on the access of Spore. While it is true that Smeargle is the fastest Spore user Amoonguss gets the chance to do so multiple times during a match because it has no sash that can be broken trough entry hazards and walls a good amount of pokes in this metagame.
Sleep clause says otherwise.

I didnt say it can Spore multiple things, I said it gets the chance to multiple times. He might aswell spore lategame when the first sleeping pokemon had to be death foddered or the sleep Pokemon with vital spirit has been killed. While smeargle is rarely alive lategame.

Also, bringing up something completely irrelevant is just that: irrelevant. No, Smeargle cannot use V-Create effectively, but it can use Baton Pass effectively.

I was just responding to what was said, so if it was irrelevant then because the reason supporting Smeargle was irrelevant.

 

[mkizzy]

I didnt say it can Spore multiple things, I said it gets the chance to multiple thinks. He might aswell spore lategame when the first sleeping pokemon had to be death foddered or the sleep Pokemon with vital spirit has been killed. While smeargle is rarely alive lategame.

Inducing sleep isn't Smeargle's one and only role, it does much more whether that's laying hazards or baton passing boosts to another pokemon. Comparing the two is almost silly. I'm not saying Amoonguss is bad, it certainly isn't, I'm just saying comparing the roles of the two isn't proving a point that Smeargle should be D rank (a laughable claim at best.) In regards to Scolipede and the other hazard mons you listed, none of them get as much guranteed hazards on the field because of Smeargle's Spore, which again, isn't it's only niche.

 

[Laikue]

Smeargle, and Amoongus are Apples, and Oranges. Un-comparable, and just barely similar, Nothing outclasses Smeargle, I'll admit that. After Playing some RU Today, and seeing a lot of Smeargle, (Probably due to this specific arguement) he seems more like a Mid-B, But High-A is just too damn high. He's has Several Notable Flaws, that can be clearly seen, which is what B-Rank is here for. I can see where you guys were going with Late Game Smeargle, he can be annoying, If SR, or any Layers of Spikes get Set-Up on Smear's side, however he will not be able to perform well late game. (Assuming that the opponent does not lead with him.) Which means he needs Spin Support, which albeit isn't that hard with all the Kabutops spinning around, all Like Tops up in here. I just feel like everyone ignored Stealth rocks when they were talking about late game Smeargles. He needs team support if he's going in late game. (Specifically Pokemon Like Cincinno, and Kabutops/Amoongus must be defeated to make him fully effective.) But after all this arguing I still don't see why Smeargle should remain Top A-Rank, he's not THAT good. He's a High-B, at best, Top-A is just too damn high for a mon with this many flaws.