The RU Viability Ranking Thread

[Celever]

Nicolaiblu, I would really just leave this. You've been saying pointless argument over pointless argument given that smeargle ain't going anyway.

On another note, I think that charizard should be B rank, somewhere. Maybe mid?

Charizard may seem like an out-classed moltres to you, but it has more speed, swords dance if you want to surprise your opponent and solar power. Even blaze, so it's stealth rock weakness can even help it by getting it to a third left of health for it to shoot of REALLY powerful flamethrowers.
I think it is good enough and not out-classed enough to be B, I think it is just a bit above the rest of C rank.

If not, then top C of course.

 

[NfskMjmMal]

Nicolaiblu, I would really just leave this. You've been saying pointless argument over pointless argument given that smeargle ain't going anyway.

On another note, I think that charizard should be B rank, somewhere. Maybe mid?

Charizard may seem like an out-classed moltres to you, but it has more speed, swords dance if you want to surprise your opponent and solar power. Even blaze, so it's stealth rock weakness can even help it by getting it to a third left of health for it to shoot of REALLY powerful flamethrowers.
I think it is good enough and not out-classed enough to be B, I think it is just a bit above the rest of C rank.

If not, then top C of course.

RU has very tough competition in terms of Fire-types. Remember that there's also Typhlosion. It has the exact same stats as Charizard, but it has less of a Stealth Rock weakness and it has Eruption. I feel that one of the reasons that Charizard is NU in the first place is because it's outclassed by the several strong Fire-types abundant in RU. Because of that I don't feel that it's quite B-rank. Charizard can be powerful, but it dies more easily due to a few factors than the others.

 

[ss234]

C rank is fine for zard imo. It needs a lot of support to work at its full potential as a special attacker(i.e sun and rapid spin support)to be not outclassed by Moltres / other fire type. This set also dies quite quickly what with Solar Power and SR and priority attacks being abundant in RU. While the SD + Acrobatics set is pretty damn good, getting a SD is not always easy against offensive teams, and against more defensive teams there are pokes that can handle SD zard, such as regirock and rhydon. Overall, while Charizard is not a bad pokemon(far from it), zard needs quite a lot of support to work at its best, much more so than the rest of the B rank mons.

 

[Molk]

K, making some updates (also holy shit all the smeargle hate all of a sudden x_x).

Added Charizard to top C rank

Added Ditto to mid C rank

Added Hitmonchan to mid C rank

Added Liepard to low C rank

Added Rapidash to C rank

Added Licklicky to C rank

I also updated the definitions a bit with the help of Silentverse and Dittocrow, thanks guys!

About Smeargle: i'm going to leave him where he is right now, most of the reasoning for keeping Smeargle in A rank has been covered by Silvershadow234, complete_legitimacy, TropiOUs, Feranfell, Windsong, and Scraftyisthebest, so i wont go into that too much, but here are some of the important points made on Smeargle.

Smeargle is absolutely amazing at what it does, and if anything should be low S rank rather than B rank. It is incredibly easy to spore a pokemon and set up a layer of entry hazards vs. offensive teams, which basically means one poke is out of action and you get a layer of hazards up.

Smeargle is also a really easy pokemon to use, not really required to predict that much or anything. Also, it is not 'complete nonsense' to have an entire pokemon dedicated towards hazards. Hazards can be complete game changers for the user, especially multiple layers that can be put down after a Spore.

It will always die in the match; but by the time the opponent kills it it has already done its job

Nicolaibalu, you are making all your posts regarding Smeargle on the assumption that you absolutely in all situations have to lead with Smeargle, and that's flat out not how Smeargle works. Against slower teams, yes, you lead with Smeargle. Against faster teams that have answers, you lead with something else that grabs you momentum (or stops the opponent from setting up hazards) and then once you have momentum of the match on your side and force in something like Slowking, you can bring in Smeargle, Spore to freely eliminate a mon, and then proceed to set at least one (and, if you play Smeargle conservatively, easily two) layers. Smeargle also significantly affects how the opponent is forced to play their game - if they have something that they need to make sure doesn't get slept that is slower than Smeargle (say, Tangrowth or something) then they're giving Smeargle free opportunities to come in and set a hazard every single time they're sent out. Finally, although it's not quite as stupid as it was when Nidoqueen was RU, Smeargle can still pull off some very nasty Quiver Passing.

also a note:

While it's true that Kabutops and Cryogonal can beat all spinblockers, they both have easily exploitable weaknesses and aren't particularly fond of hazards themselves. In fact, I'd say that Smeargle could be a potential suspect if the spinners weren't so good.

Just going to point out that while Kabutops and Cryogonal are in fact very, very good spinners, Smeargle has the ability to preserve the hazards it set against even them by using either Explosion or Memento in the last slot. Smeargle easily outpaces both Adamant Kabutops and Defensive Cryogonal (although jolly tops and fast cryogonal can pose problems) and can simply suicide with Explosion or Memento while either damaging the spinner or giving a teammate a free boost, meanwhile Rapid Spin doesnt have a target to hit, preventing the attack from working, and thus preventing the removal of hazards. From here the Smeargle user gets a free switch (or possibly set up turn with memento), most likely forcing out the spinner and giving the Smeargle user the upper hand.

 

[Danza de la Lluvia]

Durant for S rank. Durant is quite the little monster. With Nidoqueen gone from RU, there is very little to stand in the bugs way. Nidoqueen was its only true counter. Now, with it gone, nothing stands up to it. Take the most prevalent wall in the RU metagame, slowking. Comfortably OHKO's even if slowking packs full investment. Fire types are one of the few counters and ru's fire types dont have the best speed in the world. His biggest counter would probably be entei, but with a 109 vs 100 base speed, he wins any speed tie and ohko's with stone edge. 109 attack boosted by hustle with a hone claws means that the opposing team is gonna die, and unless you have a unresisted, powerful, reliable move with a defensive, scarfed and special sweeper, good luck taking him down.

 

[Nicolaibalu]

Durant for S rank. Durant is quite the little monster. With Nidoqueen gone from RU, there is very little to stand in the bugs way. Nidoqueen was its only true counter. Now, with it gone, nothing stands up to it. Take the most prevalent wall in the RU metagame, slowking. Comfortably OHKO's even if slowking packs full investment. Fire types are one of the few counters and ru's fire types dont have the best speed in the world. His biggest counter would probably be entei, but with a 109 vs 100 base speed, he wins any speed tie and ohko's with stone edge. 109 attack boosted by hustle with a hone claws means that the opposing team is gonna die, and unless you have a unresisted, powerful, reliable move with a defensive, scarfed and special sweeper, good luck taking him down.

I dont think it makes a whole lot of sense to demonstrate durants power by the damage it deals to a spdef wall which gets hit super effectivly by one of its STAB moves. Besides that there are a couple of pokes in RU that can handle it pretty reliably. Poliwrath and Qwilfish come to mind. Also without hone claws it has problems with accuracy. Putting in hone claws makes you either lack rock slide, or superpower. Without rock slide it struggles against fire types and without superpower it gets walled by steel types like Aggron or Steelix.

I do think tough that Durant is very dangerous and I could definately see it in low S rank.

 

[imdgreatest]

munchlax

look, i wish people would stop calling munchlax atrocious. I know I have a low post count, so im probly not qualified, and i know that munchlax is nu, but hes really gotten a bad rap. He was on the team that got me to 1960 in ru, and has been a staple of most of my teams since. But whatever, im sure im just gonna get shouted down soon. Otherwise, this is good.

 

[Nicolaibalu]

look, i wish people would stop calling munchlax atrocious. I know I have a low post count, so im probly not qualified, and i know that munchlax is nu, but hes really gotten a bad rap. He was on the team that got me to 1960 in ru, and has been a staple of most of my teams since. But whatever, im sure im just gonna get shouted down soon. Otherwise, this is good.

Yeah I think many people just love to hate Munchlax, I think he can do one thing reasonably well - take special hits. There is absolutely nothing a Moltres can do to a Munchlax, even if it runs Focus Blast its not a 2HKO after Stealth Rock. And Munchlax could get the paralyze with bodyslam or whirlwind a little.
Sadly there is where the good points of Munchlax ends because it does something else pretty good - kill momentum for the user. Also it has to rely on RestTalking to stay alive which can, if unlucky, get you sweeped.

But since it is stated that Munchlax is not to be moved on the list, even tough i think its more useful then dusknoir (lol), i think we can stop discussing him here :)

 

[Danza de la Lluvia]

It is not more guaranteed to put something to sleep than Amoongus and "practically KOing it" is just naive imo...
From my experience Smeargle is just a complete "pub stomper" but fails to do anything vital if the opponent knows what he is doing (at least a little).



If you go one page back in this threat you will find a complete list of good answers to Smeargle. There are far more choices then just Cinccino and Jynx...

I agree, Smeargle is one of those few pokemon who is viable in all tiers, he is an incredibly niche pokemon. I still believe Smeargle deserves mid A rank at best. I do however like smeargles countering ability, and maybe without the sleep clause it would be awesome, but as of now, mid b rank. And I agree, sleep is NOT EQUAL TO a ko

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I agree, Smeargle is one of those few pokemon who is viable in all tiers, he is an incredibly niche pokemon. I still believe Smeargle deserves mid b rank at best. I do however like smeargles countering ability, and maybe without the sleep clause it would be awesome, but as of now, mid b rank. And I agree, sleep is NOT EQUAL TO a ko

I don't need to argue to keep Smeargle in High A again?! Do I? Requoting because I'm lazy.

Smeargle will always be sure to get one Spore in, and it is the sleep mechanics that make it a literal KO (the mechanics ensure that if they switch out they will practically never wake up). Smeargle is kinda like Deoxys-D in a way; it sets up hazards in the face of most Pokemon. It will always die in the match; but by the time the opponent kills it it has done its job; set up hazards. Not many Pokemon can really stop it from doing that; in fact, Smeargle along with things like Snover and Scolipede are part of the reason for Cinccino's rise to power (aside from the fact that Cinc is obscenely powerful). The lone fact that Smeargle can incapacitate and opponent with Spore sets it apart from other suicide hazard setters such as Scolipede and Crustle. Having a hazards lead is pretty much Smeargle's job; it is one of the key players to offensive teams to get the match going. Smeargle is always death fodder but like other leads its job pretty much has the match set.

Of course every Pokemon have their counters, but that shouldn't disqualify Smeargle from being Top A-Rank. Smeargle is the ultimate hazard setter and is a must on almost every offensive team. What Smeargle does in every match is huge, and setting up two of the best moves in the game is a large-scale support that can be considered "supporting significant portions of the metagame". Smeargle is so good it deserves to stay in Top A-Rank.

This pretty much sums up why Smeargle is Top A IMO.

Anyways, on another topic, Sawk should be Mid C-Rank. The thing is a pretty good cleaner with Scarf and CC and has enough power to smack shit with ease. It has solid enough coverage and can definitely make for a powerful offensive Pokemon. It's a decent wallbreaker with CB too. It faces really stiff competition though, but overall Sawk's a pretty decent Pokemon and deserves to be at least Mid C-Rank.

 

[DittoCrow]

I'll reiterate my previous points:

Smeargle is the best hazard setter in the tier. This is partly due to Spore letting it set up easier, but it also is faster than most other Pokemon that have access to BOTH Stealth Rock and Spikes.

Smeargle is the biggest reason for the rise in popularity of Lum Berry and Sleep Talk users. Emboar, Entei, and Escavalier barely used it before Smeargle became popular, as the threats of Lilligant and Amoonguss were low. Smeargle has a metagame defining trait right here which is a big reason why it is A Rank. The fact that these counters are so popular is what is keeping Smeargle from being S Rank.

However, the popularity of these sleep absorbers do not hinder Smeargle's set up opportunities if you play it correctly. You don't have to lead with it, nor do you have to keep it in against Pokemon such as Cinccino.

Smeargle is also quite useful in other roles besides hazard setting. Trick Room and Baton Pass are very effective sets on certain teams. It can also use other moves such as Rapid Spin since most people won't usually use Ghost-types to deal with Smeargle.

Smeargle is a metagame-defining threat and the most effective at hazard setting, an extremely useful trait for most teams. It definitely deserves a spot in A Rank because of this.

 

[Molk]

Ok, time for some updates!

Added Garbodor to mid C rank

Added Swoobat to mid C rank

Added Camerupt to low C rank

Added Whimsicott to low C rank

remember that none of these changes are permanent, if you think one of these changes is inaccurate and/or shouldnt've been done be sure to speak up!

About Durant to S rank: Although i disagree with some of the points made in the original proposal (Nidoqueen wasn't a counter to Durant at all, +1 Iron Head OHKO'd it, Poliwrath and Qwilfish are really your best bets when trying to reliably switch into Durant). I think moving Durant up to low S rank is a possibility, although i'm not totally sure if Durant truely deserves to be promoted just yet because of a few notable flaws, but anyone who's faced one knows just how dangerous it can be. With Hustle taken into account, Durant has the highest immediate Attack stat in the game, even surpassing Deoxys-A (although things like Medicham still hit a bit harder thanks to higher BP attacks), and unlike other brutes such as Rampardos, Durant has a great base 109 Speed stat to abuse, outpacing the majority of the unboosted metagame outside of a few outliers such as Sceptile, Cinccino, and Scolipede. Because of its immense power and the new addition of Superpower to its movepool, only a fair few Pokemon can safely switch into Durant, showing just how damn strong the little bug really is. Nonthenless, Durant has a few flaws that make me shaky on promoting it just yet. Most obviously, Durant's special bulk is absolutely pitiful, to the point where Durant often finds itself being 2HKO'd by Special Attacks that it resists (i've done 50%+ to them with Cryogonal's Ice Beam >_>). This makes Durant very vulnerable to being revenge killed by faster Special Attackers such as Sceptile, Scarf Rotom-C, and Accelgor, and limits Durant's switch in and set up opportunities as well. Secondly, without a Hone Claws boost Durant is incredibly prone to missing due to a side effect of Hustle, giving all of Durant's moves 80% accuracy at best, because of Durant's fraility missing often means life or death, and just one unlucky miss will usually ends up with Durant fainting the same turn, which leaves you one Pokemon short and the opponent rid of a big threat. As i mentioned before, moving Durant up to low S rank is a possibility, but it has a few big limitations that make me hesitant in moving it up just yet.

 

[Danza de la Lluvia]

Ok, time for some updates!



remember that none of these changes are permanent, if you think one of these changes is inaccurate and/or shouldnt've been done be sure to speak up!

About Durant to S rank: Although i disagree with some of the points made in the original proposal (Nidoqueen wasn't a counter to Durant at all, +1 Iron Head OHKO'd it, Poliwrath and Qwilfish are really your best bets when trying to reliably switch into Durant). I think moving Durant up to low S rank is a possibility, although i'm not totally sure if Durant truely deserves to be promoted just yet because of a few notable flaws, but anyone who's faced one knows just how dangerous it can be. With Hustle taken into account, Durant has the highest immediate Attack stat in the game, even surpassing Deoxys-A (although things like Medicham still hit a bit harder thanks to higher BP attacks), and unlike other brutes such as Rampardos, Durant has a great base 109 Speed stat to abuse, outpacing the majority of the unboosted metagame outside of a few outliers such as Sceptile, Cinccino, and Scolipede. Because of its immense power and the new addition of Superpower to its movepool, only a fair few Pokemon can safely switch into Durant, showing just how damn strong the little bug really is. Nonthenless, Durant has a few flaws that make me shaky on promoting it just yet. Most obviously, Durant's special bulk is absolutely pitiful, to the point where Durant often finds itself being 2HKO'd by Special Attacks that it resists (i've done 50%+ to them with Cryogonal's Ice Beam >_>). This makes Durant very vulnerable to being revenge killed by faster Special Attackers such as Sceptile, Scarf Rotom-C, and Accelgor, and limits Durant's switch in and set up opportunities as well. Secondly, without a Hone Claws boost Durant is incredibly prone to missing due to a side effect of Hustle, giving all of Durant's moves 80% accuracy at best, because of Durant's fraility missing often means life or death, and just one unlucky miss will usually ends up with Durant fainting the same turn, which leaves you one Pokemon short and the opponent rid of a big threat. As i mentioned before, moving Durant up to low S rank is a possibility, but it has a few big limitations that make me hesitant in moving it up just yet.

Whoa, it's cool my opinions are being considered. Anyway, IMO Durant other sets are often underrated. Yes while his most popular sets are choice band or hone claws Durant, it's not like that's all there is to this fearsome monster. His choice scarf set turns him into an almost unmatched physical revenge killer. Durant is one of those few Pokemon who comes in and is ready to destroy anything that doesn't resist every one of his moves. As for the accuracy failures, it is probably one of his most crippling flaws. However, when I ran a Durant in game and was low on BP, I grabbed a wide lens and slapped it on him. Wide lens gives his powerful stab x scissor and superpower almost 90% accuracy. I like those odds. Durant has been, is, and will continue to be a deadly Pokemon whose power and speed are hard to match. Unless your opponent packs a Sceptile or Accelgor (assuming you aren't scarfed) Durant is going to kill something, almost no matter what set you run.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I'll have to disagree with several of your points here.

Whoa, it's cool my opinions are being considered. Anyway, IMO Durant other sets are often underrated. Yes while his most popular sets are choice band or hone claws Durant, it's not like that's all there is to this fearsome monster. His choice scarf set turns him into an almost unmatched physical revenge killer.

This is somewhat true in that Durant is capable of running 4 sets effectively, Scarf, Band, Hone Claws and 4 attacks; but fails to take into account how each perform. When running Scarf Durant you are always at a perilous risk of missing your revenging attack and losing your revenge killer, often getting swept from that point out. In the SPL I ran Swarm Scarf Durant which, while effective, was hardly a paragon of power and could not decimate teams to a great extent.

Durant is one of those few Pokemon who comes in and is ready to destroy anything that doesn't resist every one of his moves.

This too is true, except that it hold true for every offensive Pokemon. Resists are the base building blocks of Pokemon and being able to deal heavy damage to Pokemon that don't resist your attacks is a very basic quality. The problem lies when your Pokemon has its attacks resisted and cannot effectively break past its counters. Qwilfish, Poliwrath and Steelix are all heralded as counters to Durant for the simple fact that they are bulky and also resist its attacks. I struggle to think of any offensive Pokemon that is considered good, that doesn't threaten Pokemon that don't resist its attacks.

As for the accuracy failures, it is probably one of his most crippling flaws. However, when I ran a Durant in game and was low on BP, I grabbed a wide lens and slapped it on him. Wide lens gives his powerful stab x scissor and superpower almost 90% accuracy. I like those odds.

The issue when running Wide Lends is that you sacrifice an item slot desperately needed to be successful. Every relevant offensive calculation for Durant is provided at +1 and with a Life Orb. Life Orb is a key component to its power, and without that item it is much easier to check. Alternatively, Lum Berry is commonly used to allow Durant a chance at easier set up, letting it potentially reach +2 without difficulty. You also cannot run Choice sets with Wide Lens in tow. By running Wide Lens you sacrifice these otherwise key items in exchange for only gaining 10% accuracy on your attacks; still a 1/10 miss chance.

Durant has been, is, and will continue to be a deadly Pokemon whose power and speed are hard to match. Unless your opponent packs a Sceptile or Accelgor (assuming you aren't scarfed) Durant is going to kill something, almost no matter what set you run.

This part is simply blatantly false. While the first statement is true, its power and speed are impeccable (accuracy aside), Durant does not and cannot guarantee a kill a match. In order to have a chance at a guaranteed kill Durant must first set up a Hone Claws, no easy feat with its piss poor bulk. Furthermore, if the opponent runs an aforementioned physical wall, especially Qwilfish and Poliwrath, Durant will never get a kill in that match under normal circumstances. Furthermore, Sceptile and Accelgor are not relevant as prominent checks, and neither can ever switch in lest they be KOd, and both must run Hidden Power Fire to reliably revenge kill Durant or else be victim to Focus Blasts 70% accuracy.


You are in the right direction with your thoughts and ideas but your support for them is lacking. Durant is a powerful Pokemon but has very notable flaws that often prevent it from being a significant force in most games. Durant should remain in A rank.

 

[Magcargo]

NOMINATING ROTOM-C FOR LOW S-RANK
Rotom-c is a pokemon very similar to sceptile. While sceptile does have an advantage in speed, Rotom-c's better defenses allow it to counter pokemon that sceptile cannot switch into (Kabutops and opposing sceptile). Thanks to trick, Rotom-c can cripple walls and setup sweepers. Leaf storm has amazing power, especially after a choice specs boost. STAB volt switch is another thing rotom-c has over sceptile, as it allows scouting possible switch-ins and can get rotom-c out of a tough situation. Its typing is also amazing, since Rotom-c resist common attacking types like electric, water and grass. Thanks to its typing, bulk and power, rotom-c deserves low S-rank.​

EDIT: Now that I think about it, ninjask should be low C-Rank along with volbeat since they both do the exact same thing​

 

[DittoCrow]

NOMINATING ROTOM-C FOR LOW S-RANK
Rotom-c is a pokemon very similar to sceptile. While sceptile does have an advantage in speed, Rotom-c's better defenses allow it to counter pokemon that sceptile cannot switch into (Kabutops and opposing sceptile). Thanks to trick, Rotom-c can cripple walls and setup sweepers. Leaf storm has amazing power, especially after a choice specs boost. STAB volt switch is another thing rotom-c has over sceptile, as it allows scouting possible switch-ins and can get rotom-c out of a tough situation. Its typing is also amazing, since Rotom-c resist common attacking types like electric, water and grass. Thanks to its typing, bulk and power, rotom-c deserves low S-rank.​

How is Rotom-C similar to Sceptile? Just because they are both Grass-type special attackers does not mean they are very similar. Rotom-C is much slower, and runs very different sets. Neither Rotom-C nor Sceptile can reliably switch into Kabutops. 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-C (84.23 - 99.17%); 0 HP / 0 Def Sceptile: (108.18 - 127.75%). Besides that, Rotom-C usually plays the role as a revenge killer, lure, or a pivot. Sceptile on the other hand is naturally one of the fastest Pokemon in the tier, so it does not need a Choice Scarf to revenge kill. It also has a very different movepool than Rotom-C, being able to overcome bulky Normal-types with Focus Blast and recover health with Giga Drain, Leech Seed, etc. Sceptile also has the ability to run either a physical or special (even mix) set, making it nearly impossible to counter if you are unaware of the set. These traits are what separates Sceptile from Rotom-C.

The reason why Rotom-C would be S Rank is that it is arguably the best Choice Scarf user in the tier and has good support moves that can surprise the opponent such as Will-O-Wisp and Thunder Wave. However, Rotom-C is easily worn down and any set lacking a Choice Scarf will be outsped by common threats such as Entei, Typhlosion, and Sigilyph. Top A Rank is fine for it in my opinion, but I can see it fitting the description of S.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, ninjask should be low C-Rank along with volbeat since they both do the exact same thing

This makes no sense either. Ninjask is 4x weak to Stealth Rock, and is used primarily for Baton Passing Speed boosts. Volbeat has Prankster and a ton of support moves to make use of it such as Encore and Thunder Wave. It is also mostly used to set up weather.

Don't just look at similar moves or typings when comparing Pokemon for this list, it's more based off of how the Pokemon plays. To everyone, please use how a Pokemon performs in the metagame as examples; a Pokemon doesn't always perform like it would seem to on paper. Texas's post is a good example of supporting how well Durant actually does in the current metagame.

 

[vibrafoen]

This is somewhat true in that Durant is capable of running 4 sets effectively, Scarf, Band, Hone Claws and 4 attacks; but fails to take into account how each perform. When running Scarf Durant you are always at a perilous risk of missing your revenging attack and losing your revenge killer, often getting swept from that point out. In the SPL I ran Swarm Scarf Durant which, while effective, was hardly a paragon of power and could not decimate teams to a great extent.

To begin again, Swarm Durant? Why would you ever choose to run a swarm Durant. Hustles accuracy drop yes can be quite the flaw, but hustle will always trump swarm. Hustle is the basis of Durant's massive power. Without it, while still being viable, is B Rank. Swarm should almost never be used on Durant. 80% is admittedly not the greatest odds, but if that's the reason you would be losing, run a separate revenge killer. Plus, Some other revenge killers moves, like focus blast, have only 70% accuracy. 70% is even worse than 80% and Sceptile and Accelgor run it all the time. In order to use Durant effectively, take time to analyze his 4 sets and decide which one is the best for you

This too is true, except that it hold true for every offensive Pokemon. Resists are the base building blocks of Pokemon and being able to deal heavy damage to Pokemon that don't resist your attacks is a very basic quality. The problem lies when your Pokemon has its attacks resisted and cannot effectively break past its counters. Qwilfish, Poliwrath and Steelix are all heralded as counters to Durant for the simple fact that they are bulky and also resist its attacks. I struggle to think of any offensive Pokemon that is considered good, that doesn't threaten Pokemon that don't resist its attacks.

While Durant honestly doesn't have ghost fighting coverage, That doesn't mean its hits hit everything not very effectively. IMO, I've played with Durant a lot and Steelix does not counter Durant. Every good Durant set runs superpower, which, even only at plus one, sends the massively bulky Steelix to the hills. Plus, with Durant's 112 base defense Steelix isn't going to be taking it out. 252Atk Life Orb +1 Hustle Durant (+Atk) Superpower vs 252HP/252Def Steelix (+Def): 90% - 106% (322 - 378 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 42% chance to OHKO. This is full bulky Steelix having a 42% chance to be OHKO'd by only a plus one Durant. As for Poliwrath and Qwilfish, you make a valid point. However, 252Atk Life Orb +1 Hustle Durant (Neutral) Superpower vs 160HP/0Def Water Absorb Poliwrath (Neutral): 97% - 114% (352 - 414 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 85% chance to OHKO, This is Durant at only a plus one against a SubPunch Poliwrath. Qwilfish reliably counters Durant, but every Pokemon has counters, regardless of how good they are.

The issue when running Wide Lends is that you sacrifice an item slot desperately needed to be successful. Every relevant offensive calculation for Durant is provided at +1 and with a Life Orb. Life Orb is a key component to its power, and without that item it is much easier to check. Alternatively, Lum Berry is commonly used to allow Durant a chance at easier set up, letting it potentially reach +2 without difficulty. You also cannot run Choice sets with Wide Lens in tow. By running Wide Lens you sacrifice these otherwise key items in exchange for only gaining 10% accuracy on your attacks; still a 1/10 miss chance.

Every relevant calculation? Life Orb is often a necessity and hustle already makes him powerful, but every relevant calculation. That is simply false. X-Scissor already packs an INCREDIBLE wallop with only hustle and LO, and to be clear, when I said wide lens was a possibility, I didn't mean wide lens was even close to being his best option. Life Orb does give him the extra punch he needs. However, If you have a solid enough RU team and the primary reason you fail is not power, but accuracy. It is a possibility that you might want to run a wide lens. Yes, LO is almost always a better choice, but the Smogon article here http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/wide_lens says that if accuracy is your greatest downfall, consider a Wide Lens.

This part is simply blatantly false. While the first statement is true, its power and speed are impeccable (accuracy aside), Durant does not and cannot guarantee a kill a match. In order to have a chance at a guaranteed kill Durant must first set up a Hone Claws, no easy feat with its piss poor bulk. Furthermore, if the opponent runs an aforementioned physical wall, especially Qwilfish and Poliwrath, Durant will never get a kill in that match under normal circumstances. Furthermore, Sceptile and Accelgor are not relevant as prominent checks, and neither can ever switch in lest they be KOd, and both must run Hidden Power Fire to reliably revenge kill Durant or else be victim to Focus Blasts 70% accuracy.

Your first statement is spot on, his power and speed are impeccable. But if played right, there is a 95% chance for Durant to hit something hard. Unless the team is Qwilfish, Poliwrath, Steelix maybe, Sceptile who is already unburdened, Accelgor, and maybe a Cryogonal as a revenge killer, Durant is going to hit something, and probably kill it. I didn't say he was unbeatable, I said he was good. Definitely good enough for low S rank. So, Durant for S Rank. He is a good, fast, strong, well typed Pokemon who is incredible in the RU Pokemon.

 

[Mack the Knife]

I feel that Magmortar should be moved up to Low A rank. I say this due to it's sheer ability to wallbreak, with even Slowking struggling to switch in. Also, it makes a great counter to nearly all sleep inducers. It shouldn't go higher than low A rank though due to it's mediocre speed, weakness to SR, and being one dimensional.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Not going to spend long here but I'm going to highlight things you said that are wrong.

To begin again, Swarm Durant? Why would you ever choose to run a swarm Durant. Hustles accuracy drop yes can be quite the flaw, but hustle will always trump swarm. Hustle is the basis of Durant's massive power. Without it, while still being viable, is B Rank. Swarm should almost never be used on Durant. 80% is admittedly not the greatest odds, but if that's the reason you would be losing, run a separate revenge killer. Plus, Some other revenge killers moves, like focus blast, have only 70% accuracy. 70% is even worse than 80% and Sceptile and Accelgor run it all the time. In order to use Durant effectively, take time to analyze his 4 sets and decide which one is the best for you

I ran Swarm for the exact reason I previously mentioned, because I could not afford to miss with Durant as my revenge killer. Curiously I won that week in the SPL.

Focus Blast is a single move that is not STAB on the 'revenge killers' in question. Every single on of Durant's attacks is 80% or worse. They are not comparable.

While Durant honestly doesn't have ghost fighting coverage, That doesn't mean its hits hit everything not very effectively. IMO, I've played with Durant a lot and Steelix does not counter Durant. Every good Durant set runs superpower, which, even only at plus one, sends the massively bulky Steelix to the hills. Plus, with Durant's 112 base defense Steelix isn't going to be taking it out. 252Atk Life Orb +1 Hustle Durant (+Atk) Superpower vs 252HP/252Def Steelix (+Def): 90% - 106% (322 - 378 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 42% chance to OHKO. This is full bulky Steelix having a 42% chance to be OHKO'd by only a plus one Durant. As for Poliwrath and Qwilfish, you make a valid point. However, 252Atk Life Orb +1 Hustle Durant (Neutral) Superpower vs 160HP/0Def Water Absorb Poliwrath (Neutral): 97% - 114% (352 - 414 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 85% chance to OHKO, This is Durant at only a plus one against a SubPunch Poliwrath. Qwilfish reliably counters Durant, but every Pokemon has counters, regardless of how good they are.

Why are you calcing Adamant Durant :/. Steelix lives your standard Jolly Durant's Superpower and Earthquakes for 0 Atk Steelix Earthquake vs 0 HP/0 -1 Def Durant: 50.19% - 59.53%. Add in 12% from SR, 20% from the two attacks it will take to kill Steelix and you've got a Durant that gets off at best two more attacks and dies to any priority attack.

Why are you calcing against SubPunch Poliwrath :/. If I'm using Poliwrath I'm using its fully defensive Scald+Circle Throw set.

252 +1 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Superpower vs 252 HP/252 Def Poliwrath (+Def) : 65.36% - 77.08%.

0 SpAtk Poliwrath Scald vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Durant: 44.75% - 52.92%. Consider also the 30% burn chance. Regardless of anything the Durant is crippled.

For both of the above, that's not even considering that both of them can phaze Durant with Roar/Circle Throw. Everyone knows how difficult it is to set Durant up once thanks to its poor bulk. Have fun doing it twice.

Every relevant calculation? Life Orb is often a necessity and hustle already makes him powerful, but every relevant calculation. That is simply false. X-Scissor already packs an INCREDIBLE wallop with only hustle and LO, and to be clear, when I said wide lens was a possibility, I didn't mean wide lens was even close to being his best option. Life Orb does give him the extra punch he needs. However, If you have a solid enough RU team and the primary reason you fail is not power, but accuracy. It is a possibility that you might want to run a wide lens. Yes, LO is almost always a better choice, but the Smogon article here http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/wide_lens says that if accuracy is your greatest downfall, consider a Wide Lens.

Wide Lens is an average at best item and should not be considered on some as item-dependent as Durant.

Your first statement is spot on, his power and speed are impeccable. But if played right, there is a 95% chance for Durant to hit something hard. Unless the team is Qwilfish, Poliwrath, Steelix maybe, Sceptile who is already unburdened, Accelgor, and maybe a Cryogonal as a revenge killer, Durant is going to hit something, and probably kill it. I didn't say he was unbeatable, I said he was good. Definitely good enough for low S rank. So, Durant for S Rank. He is a good, fast, strong, well typed Pokemon who is incredible in the RU Pokemon.

This statement makes me question if you actually play RU. Sceptile outspeeds Durant whether its Unburdened or not. Cryogonal never outspeeds Jolly Durant. Scarfed Electrics including Manectric, Rotom (and formes), and Galvantula all revenge Durant. Moltres if you aren't running a Rock attack (which we've stated we aren't given the Superpower calcs) checks it as well. Alomomola checks it to an extent with Scald. If Durant hasn't set up to +1 the list of Pokemon that can take one attack from Durant and retaliate increases vastly.


Durant is good. Durant is strong. Durant can kill things easily.

Durant is frail. Durant has difficulty setting up. Durant has counter whether set up or not.

Durant has notable flaws that prevent it from excelling in RU. Durant stays A rank.

 

[Celever]

To begin again, Swarm Durant? Why would you ever choose to run a swarm Durant. Hustles accuracy drop yes can be quite the flaw, but hustle will always trump swarm. Hustle is the basis of Durant's massive power. Without it, while still being viable, is B Rank. Swarm should almost never be used on Durant. 80% is admittedly not the greatest odds, but if that's the reason you would be losing, run a separate revenge killer. Plus, Some other revenge killers moves, like focus blast, have only 70% accuracy. 70% is even worse than 80% and Sceptile and Accelgor run it all the time. In order to use Durant effectively, take time to analyze his 4 sets and decide which one is the best for you

While Durant honestly doesn't have ghost fighting coverage, That doesn't mean its hits hit everything not very effectively. IMO, I've played with Durant a lot and Steelix does not counter Durant. Every good Durant set runs superpower, which, even only at plus one, sends the massively bulky Steelix to the hills. Plus, with Durant's 112 base defense Steelix isn't going to be taking it out. 252Atk Life Orb +1 Hustle Durant (+Atk) Superpower vs 252HP/252Def Steelix (+Def): 90% - 106% (322 - 378 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 42% chance to OHKO. This is full bulky Steelix having a 42% chance to be OHKO'd by only a plus one Durant. As for Poliwrath and Qwilfish, you make a valid point. However, 252Atk Life Orb +1 Hustle Durant (Neutral) Superpower vs 160HP/0Def Water Absorb Poliwrath (Neutral): 97% - 114% (352 - 414 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 85% chance to OHKO, This is Durant at only a plus one against a SubPunch Poliwrath. Qwilfish reliably counters Durant, but every Pokemon has counters, regardless of how good they are.

Every relevant calculation? Life Orb is often a necessity and hustle already makes him powerful, but every relevant calculation. That is simply false. X-Scissor already packs an INCREDIBLE wallop with only hustle and LO, and to be clear, when I said wide lens was a possibility, I didn't mean wide lens was even close to being his best option. Life Orb does give him the extra punch he needs. However, If you have a solid enough RU team and the primary reason you fail is not power, but accuracy. It is a possibility that you might want to run a wide lens. Yes, LO is almost always a better choice, but the Smogon article here http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/wide_lens says that if accuracy is your greatest downfall, consider a Wide Lens.

Your first statement is spot on, his power and speed are impeccable. But if played right, there is a 95% chance for Durant to hit something hard. Unless the team is Qwilfish, Poliwrath, Steelix maybe, Sceptile who is already unburdened, Accelgor, and maybe a Cryogonal as a revenge killer, Durant is going to hit something, and probably kill it. I didn't say he was unbeatable, I said he was good. Definitely good enough for low S rank. So, Durant for S Rank. He is a good, fast, strong, well typed Pokemon who is incredible in the RU Pokemon.

Dude, you don't need spaces between paragraphs that big, I shortened down your post for you in the quote, it's fine like that...

Swarm has advantages over hustle. I actually have durant as a back-up wallbreaker as well as a sweeper, and when you're wallbreaking do you know what you don't want? Misses. You also get an extremely powerful X-scissor below 33%.

Every good durant runs superpower? That's new.
In actual fact there are many durant that don't run superpower. Because of durant's pretty atrocious special defense I have never managed to run a hone claws set effectively, that means that superpower is a very double-edged sword. On a set like hone claws it is very counter-productive, why set up boosts to then get rid of them? On a choice scarf set it may work, like emboar, but I may just really hate superpower as a whole (hammer arm emboar ftw).

NO NO NO.
Wide lens is a gimmick, and not even a good gimmick. As said before, durant needs its item the majority of the time. Wide lens doesn't even give it 100% accuracy, still with a 1/10 chance to miss. I am totally repeating texas here, but just don't bring up wide lens again... please...

It may be able to hit something hard, but with low special defense and, for most people, crippling accuracy issues durant simply is not good enough for S rank. S rank is for absolutely incredibly amazing pokemon in the metagame, and I'm still not 100% with druddigon being the best of the best in RU, never mind durant, who is pretty item reliant, has accuracy issues if you, like most people, run hustle and is pretty counterable in RU.

A rank for durant

On a side note, I agree that rotom-C is the best of the best of RU. He deserves low S, in my opinion, and while I personally prefer lilligant, I still love using rotom-C sometimes thanks to his brilliance in RU. I think he may be able to hold his own in mid S, but low S is good for him right now.

 

[Magcargo]

I feel that Magmortar should be moved up to Low A rank. I say this due to it's sheer ability to wallbreak, with even Slowking struggling to switch in. Also, it makes a great counter to nearly all sleep inducers. It shouldn't go higher than low A rank though due to it's mediocre speed, weakness to SR, and being one dimensional.

I agree with this, but I don't think that the other users will. Many people say that moltres is better because of it higher speed and secondary STAB, but magmortar has many key advantages. Thanks to its access to Thunderbolt, most bulky waters, barring the rare lanturn, cannot wall it and unlike Hurricane, it isn't a coin flip whether it hits 2 times or not. Vitual spirit is another boon, since smeargle and liligant can't cripple magmortar. Magmortar also has access to Focus blast and while it is as accurate as moltres's hurricane, it still does quite a bit of damage to normal walls like clefable. Low A-Rank is prefect for it, but it could stay in Top B-Rank.

As for rotom-c, I apoligize for comparing it to sceptile, but thanks to its access to STAB electric attacks, it doesn't have to rely on HP rock to get past moltres and scyther, allowing to run a different HP coverage move, such as HP fire. Its choice scarf set in particular is amazing at revenge killing and grabbing momentum with volt switch. The choice specs set hits like a nuke and either can OHKO things with leaf storm, or grab momentum with a slower, stronger volt switch. Its deserves S-Rank.

 

[Molk]

Not gonna make an update just yet (although Rotom-C's guarenteed a spot in low S rank unless theres significant opposition), i'm going to need a few more opinions on certain pokemon before i place them (some of the untested mons/remaining unplaced C rank mons). But i have a proposal to make in the meantime.

Nominating Emboar for top A rank

Although Emboar was overlooked a lot during BW1 and the early stages of BW2 for its low speed and competition in the form of Entei, i seriously think that Emboar at least deserves top A rank at the moment. Ever since its initial rise to RU (albiet because of a spammer >.> although it would have probably moved up to ru next tier shift anyway , given that many of the top players in the tier were starting to use it even before it moved up) its cemented itself as one of the best offensive Pokemon in the tier. Choice Scarf Emboar is arguably the best glue Pokemon/filler for offensive teams, checking a myriad of common threats including but not limited to Lilligant, Sceptile, Absol, Durant, Escavalier, Tangrowth, Amoonguss, Magmortar, and most hail abusers...all in one teamslot! Aside from that, Choice Scarf Emboar simply makes a great late game cleaner and revenge killer with its combination of power, scarf boosted Speed, and bulk. Unlike other common Fire-types such as Entei, Moltres, and Magmortar, Emboar doesnt have a weakness to Stealth Rock, lessening the need for a spinner and making Emboar a bit easier to fit into different types of teams. Also, with Nidoqueen leaving the tier, slower, more defensive teams are starting to become more common, and with the entire tier not aiming to outrun her, slower Emboar sets have become more viable as well. For example: Choice Band Emboar makes an excellent wallbreaker, using its combination of excellent dual STABs, raw power, and good coverage options to tear down RU's walls with ease, not even Slowking is safe from CB Emboar, as Wild Charge has a 50% chance of OHKOing standard defensive Slowking after Stealth Rock, a pretty impressive feat. Some other non Scarf Emboar sets might be viable as well, such as mixed, Flame Charge and Specs, but these are completely untested for the most part so i wont mention anything about them in particular. In the end, i think Emboar's absolutely amazing in this metagame, and i think the facts stated above are enough to justify placing it in top A rank, although if you disagree with this proposal feel free to speak up!

 

[ss234]

Full support for both Emboar and Rotom-C. Emboar is a really excellent pokemon in the current metagame, thanks to its ability to check lilligant, sceptile, escavalier, durant, absol and many ice types commonly found on hail teams as well. These are all huge threats in the current metagame, and thanks to emboar's ability check all of them with ease, it is a great glue pokemon for offensive teams. However, Emboar also packs a pretty huge punch even with a Choice Scarf, thanks to its good base 123 Att and 120 BP STAB moves. Emboar also has excellent coverage with just Flare Blitz / Superpower / Wild Charge, hitting almost everything in the tier for at least neutral damage. Band is also a pretty good wall-breaker, thanks to the huge power of both it's STAB moves with a Band. Emboar does have flaws however, such as being slow without a Choice Scarf and decent at best bulk,as well as being worn down really quickly despite having a neutrality to SR due to its recoil moves. However, I think that Emboar's attributes, such as being able to check a wide variety of dangerous pokes in the metagame and having great coverage and power makes it a really great pick in this metagame, so yeah emboar for High A rank pls.

Rotom-C is also a really excellent pokemon in the current metagame. Firstly, rotom-c has pretty damn good bulk, and a nice typing to go with it, allowing it to check choice locked electric types such as manectric and opposing rotom-c, as well as check most water types such as +2 kabutops and +2 gatr and can switch in one eq's from the likes of rhydon. As previously mentioned, rotom-c is also one of the best choice scarf users in the tier, and is excellent at wracking up damage through volt switch, which ground types fear due to rotom-c's second STAB, leaf storm which is quite powerful even without a boosting item due to the high bp. Rotom-c is also immune to spikes, which is a huge help for a scarfer, making it much harder to wear down. This good bulk, great defensive typing, immunity to spikes, decent speed(outspeeds jolly +1 kabutops which is cool), access to volt switch and good STAB's make rotom-c one of the best scarf users in the tier. However, rotom-c can do much more than this. It can use expert belt to surprise pokes hoping to switch in on a move they resist / are immune to, and get hit by a STAB / HP that can deal a ton of damage. Rotom-c can also run a ridiculously powerful choice specs set, that can destroy some common counters(defensive cryogonal for example is 2HKO'd by leaf storm after SR). However, this is much slower than the choice scarf set, which limits its ability to check durant / swellow / +2 +1 tops etc. All in all, I think that rotom-c's plus points make it a low S rank pokemon in the current metagame.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

(I'm making this post from my phone so please bear with me)

I definitely agree with moving Emboar to Top A-Rank. The thing is just a beast in RU. He has a solid typing that, as Silvershadow said, which makes it a great check to quite a lot of threats in the tier. Emboar also is very strong and his STABs alone give greay coverage, with Wild Charge wrapping it up. It is a solid revenge killer and wallbreaker too, making it worthy of Top A-Rank.

Rotom-C deserves Low S imo. He is the best Choice Scarf user in the tier thanks to good STABs and Volt Switch making it hard to play around. It also has other options like Expert Belt and such, not to mention he is a good rain setter as well, especially in my RMT. Low S imo.

Just my two cents.

 

[Molk]

ok, update time!

Here are the updates i decided to make this time around, some were proposals in this thread, and others came from irc discussions

Moved Emboar up to top A rank

Moved Rotom-C up to low S rank

Added Kadabra to C rank

Added Mandibuzz to mid C rank

Added Cacturne to top C rank

Added Exeggutor to top C rank

be sure to remember that none of these changes are permanent, if you disagree with a change feel free to post an argument to get it veto'ed

After reading some of the arguments against moving Durant to S rank i've decided against moving it to S rank for the time being, and it will remain top A rank for now, although moving it up still isnt completely out of the question if someone can make a convincing argument to move it up! :>.