Pokémon Greninja

[AccidentalGreed]

Ummmm. Yeah. Gonna have to stop the party here.

Judging by how good Fake Out + Ice Shard + Aqua Jet Dewgong and Mach Punch + Sucker Punch + Fake Out Hitmontop actually are in real time (hint: I'm saying this ironically), let's not get our panties in a bunch on how trio-priority Greninja is the next best thing ever. Because it isn't.

Also Ice Shard is fake. http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/696959-pokemon-x/67825941?page=3

Please and thank you for your moveset building services.

 

[newtonja]

As far as I have seen this has been used almost primarily as a lead with I think spike and taunt (i'm not sure) but I don't see many offensive sets because there tends to be better options but I think it might become ou, not sure though. It has been used a lot though.

 

[blasphemy1]

Better options than offensive Greninja? I've yet to see it. STAB Ice Beam on a non-Ice type with fantastic speed is dangerous, particularly when Fire-types and Steel-types won't switch into it. I've seldom used Grass Knot, but there have been a few instances where turning into a Grass-type saved me from outpredicting Scarf Rotom-W. U-turn is simply icing on the cake, and I feel like it's a necessity. Wasting a turn in this metagame can be fatal and there are plenty of Pokemon which can tank one of its moves and make you pay for your mistakes.

As for Spikes and Taunt, Taunt is a total waste of this Pokemon's potential. Spikes or Toxic Spikes have their uses because Greninja puts pressure on the opponent to switch, letting you get a free layer. However, entry hazards, particularly grounded ones, don't do much justice when you've got things like Gengar, Rotom-W, and Talonflame running amok.

 

[VCrowe]

Wow, now Greninja has nothing but moves that average around ~40 Base Power! Have fun killing things with those! And while I'm at it, I might as well try the alternative, 'Bullet Punch / Vacuum Wave / Extremespeed' Lucario, to cover speedy threats and waste all that offensive potential!

If you don't see where I'm going with this, you don't need to dump a Pokemon full of priority moves (especially if they have low BP, which is why Kanga gets a pass) in order for it to work. You don't even get to make good use of any defensive perks Protean grants you because you're just too weak to KO back anything threatening you.

Ummmm. Yeah. Gonna have to stop the party here.

Judging by how good Fake Out + Ice Shard + Aqua Jet Dewgong and Mach Punch + Sucker Punch + Fake Out Hitmontop actually are in real time (hint: I'm saying this ironically), let's not get our panties in a bunch on how trio-priority Greninja is the next best thing ever. Because it isn't.

Also Ice Shard is fake. http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/696959-pokemon-x/67825941?page=3

Please and thank you for your great moveset building services, people.

It was just speculation, you guys didn't have to answer with sarcasm. The basis of anything is speculation, and without it we probably wouldn't be anywhere.

I swear, this single thread has given birth to more debates, arguments, and rude comments than 40% of the Internet.

Also, none of us said that an all priority move-set was good or even viable, we simply stated that it could've been an option.

 

[xenofiftyfour]

Also Ice Shard is fake. http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/696959-pokemon-x/67825941?page=3

Dang, you're right, I've finished now to breed a female Froakie with a male Lapras with Ice shard, and it doesn't get it.
Sorry guys I should have checked first.

 

[BuddhaSmite]

Even if it did get Ice shard, it wasn't that great, imo. Priority switch me to the worst defensive type in the game, GO! At least physical sets trying to run shadow sneak will gain an immunity.

I firmly believe that the timid special attacker is easily the best set, outspeeds, hits hard, U-Turns away from danger. I don't see what the physical set (any of them) is aiming to come in on.

 

[The.Lost.Hylian]

I've been running this Greninja on my Sand team and it's doing wonders:


Greninja (F) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Protean
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- U-turn
- Scald
- Spikes

I'm somewhat iffy on his IVs and nature, though I know I need it to be +Spd. Safety Goggles protects him from the residual Sand Stream damage, which is really helpful in allowing him to survive with his frailty. It also allows me to catch Spore leads off guard and set up hazards twice when they fail to Spore me. There aren't many things faster than it that have access to Thunder(bolt) and the like, so I Spikes on the predicted Electric attack. Toxic Spikes is good to take resisted damage from Fighting attacks so it can U-Turn out to come back later, and Poison damage is good in Sand Storm to wear down my opponent. I run Scald because I love the chance to Burn. Even though Hydro Pump could get me more KOs, ever since my JAA 2006 5th place finish, I've not been a fan of 80% accuracy. I only run Hydro Pump on Rotom-W because I have to.

I tested dual layers on a whim while I was tweaking my team, doubtful that it would perform as well as a more offensive set, but I've actually had a lot of success with it. I'll be messing with defensive IVs possibly if there are moves I'd like to be able to survive one or two times with or without my type change in mind, but I'm not sure sacrificing a lot of offensive power would be worth it. I originally had Red Card on it, since type changing would allow it to take a hit after laying a layer of (Toxic)Spikes and forcing the switch. It was really satisfying to catch my opponent off guard on turn one and facing a Poisoned Pokemon that doesn't want to stay in on Greninja. I opted for Red Card on the bulkier Hippowdon instead, as it was better to switch him in on something I wanted out of the way immediately.

 

[VCrowe]

Even if it did get Ice shard, it wasn't that great, imo. Priority switch me to the worst defensive type in the game, GO! At least physical sets trying to run shadow sneak will gain an immunity.

I firmly believe that the timid special attacker is easily the best set, outspeeds, hits hard, U-Turns away from danger. I don't see what the physical set (any of them) is aiming to come in on.

So you believe running a nature that reduces Atk with U-turn is the best option? Hasty/Naive, or nothing.

 

[Rudoku]

So you believe running a nature that reduces Atk with U-turn is the best option? Hasty/Naive, or nothing.

Well, what does uninvested neutral 95 attack do that's so important? I'm not being sarcastic at all, I just don't get it. Are there any pokémon that take 50-75% that won't with a negative nature?

 

[Bravadorado]

Well, what does uninvested neutral 95 attack do that's so important? I'm not being sarcastic at all, I just don't get it. Are there any pokémon that take 50-75% that won't with a negative nature?

It does significantly more than a -SpD nature will do against you. I don't having comparing calcs on hand, but surely more damage is better? Especially since the only drawback to Naive/Hasty is that you get OHKO'd harder (AKA it doesn't matter at all).

 

[VCrowe]

Well, what does uninvested neutral 95 attack do that's so important? I'm not being sarcastic at all, I just don't get it. Are there any pokémon that take 50-75% that won't with a negative nature?

It's at a point where even if your running an all special attacking set, the majority of people will be using U-turn and putting 4 EV's into Atk. Not to mention there's the 88 Atk / 168 SAtk / 252 Spd set, that would be wasteful without Hasty/Naive.

IMO, Timid is a flat out waste of potential, and even all-out special attacking sets should run Hasty, with U-turn and 4 Atk EV's.

 

[shack]

I've been running this Greninja on my Sand team and it's doing wonders:


Greninja (F) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Protean
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- U-turn
- Scald
- Spikes

Does this work for you online or just theory? I like the sound of it, but feel like too many things can take it out in one hit, rarely allowing you to set up

 

[Mario With Lasers]

So you believe running a nature that reduces Atk with U-turn is the best option? Hasty/Naive, or nothing.

Huh of course it is, you're doing U-Turn to switch out, not to 2HKO pokémon.

 

[VCrowe]

Huh of course it is, you're doing U-Turn to switch out, not to 2HKO pokémon.

*face palm* I honestly don't understand you people. Why wouldn't you want to 2HKO something with U-turn? Hasty with 88 Atk 2HKO's Espeon, Reuniclus and Latios. Granted, the best way to do this would be to have your Greninja U-turn while they're at full HP so that you don't lose momentum. However, I'd rather lose momentum than have my opponent keep their Latios.

Also, you never use U-turn just to switch, you use it to deal damage then switch, so why not deal more? The only things that 88 Atk U-turn OHKO are things your opponent would save for late game, such as offensive Celebi and Alakazam, so using U-turn on them to KO is actually plausible since your opponent has likely already lost if they're down to their late game sweepers.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Fair enough.

 

[Jaguar360]

Well, what does uninvested neutral 95 attack do that's so important? I'm not being sarcastic at all, I just don't get it. Are there any pokémon that take 50-75% that won't with a negative nature?

I just OHKO'd a Starmie with U-Turn with my Hasty Greninja w/ 4 Attack evs when it was my last pokemon. Having a decent attack stat can be important with U-turn especially considering that it's effectively a 105 base power bug attack with Protean.

 

[That new guy]

I use a completely different set than most people and I find it works much better.
U-turn
Water Shuruken
hidden power Ground
Acrobates

I know your wondering why in the world HP Ground is on here but I have my reasons. Electric is one of Greninja's greatest threats. Using this makes him completely immune and deals some nice damage even with the nerf of HP. Plus my opponent never sees it coming. I also use the Flying gem-Acrobates strategy to deal with fighting, grass, and bug types. Water Shuruken is good priority and a STAB-boosted U-turn is always nice. I am thinking of replacing WS with Quick attack or hydro pump.

 

[Punchshroom]

I use a completely different set than most people and I find it works much better.
U-turn
Water Shuruken
hidden power Ground
Acrobates

I know your wondering why in the world HP Ground is on here but I have my reasons. Electric is one of Greninja's greatest threats. Using this makes him completely immune and deals some nice damage even with the nerf of HP. Plus my opponent never sees it coming. I also use the Flying gem-Acrobates strategy to deal with fighting, grass, and bug types. Water Shuruken is good priority and a STAB-boosted U-turn is always nice. I am thinking of replacing WS with Quick attack or hydro pump.

The problem with HP Ground is that Rotom-W happen to be one of the premier Greninja checks, so Hidden Power Ground won't save you from it. Aside from maybe Magnezone, there aren't many Electric-types HP Ground hits that don't outspeed Greninja.

 

[Schpoonman]

Here's why I'm still iffy on the train of thought that U-turn is somehow mandatory on Greninja.

252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 299-354 (99.33 - 117.6%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Dark Pulse vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 330-393 (80.68 - 96.08%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Espeon: 304-359 (91.01 - 107.48%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 242-283 (59.9 - 70.04%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

All those 2HKOs with U-turn you're so proud of? Easily accomplished and sometimes bested by his special movepool. U-turn is sweet, I get it. I DON'T get how dropping coverage when Greninja's only safe switch-ins are the blobs is sweet.

 

[Ranevski]

U-turn is mandatory imo because it's the move every special attacker wants. VoltSwitch/Uturn/BatonPass are invaluable when teams run pokemon like Blissey that can wall everything you have no matter what four coverage moves you use. Dry swapping has an enormous risk associated with it. While it is an important part of pokemon that you will need to use to win games, the less you rely on it the better.

Dry BatonPassing doesn't gain momentum, and VoltSwitch fails against ground types (which is what electric pokemon often want to switch out of). U-turn is the dream. You predict Blissey or anything else that you have poor coverage on swapping in, hit U-turn, profit. If they came in you hit it for whatever (breaking sashes on Ttars and stuff is just a bonus) and then bring in your best answer or setup-sweeper. If you guessed wrong then you get the all important information of what they swapped to instead, or that they stayed in, and can try to predict their move and bring in something to dodge/absorb it.

TLDR: If a pokemon can hit everything fairly well (like say Mixed MegaGarchomp) then it cares not so much for moves like U-Turn. However for 99% of pokemon that get walled by certain things (Scizor, Greninja), moves like U-Turn are invaluable.

 

[JustLetMePlay]

U-turn is mandatory imo because it's the move every special attacker wants. VoltSwitch/Uturn/BatonPass are invaluable when teams run pokemon like Blissey that can wall everything you have no matter what four coverage moves you use. Dry swapping has an enormous risk associated with it. While it is an important part of pokemon that you will need to use to win games, the less you rely on it the better.

Dry BatonPassing doesn't gain momentum, and VoltSwitch fails against ground types (which is what electric pokemon often want to switch out of). U-turn is the dream. You predict Blissey or anything else that you have poor coverage on swapping in, hit U-turn, profit. If they came in you hit it for whatever (breaking sashes on Ttars and stuff is just a bonus) and then bring in your best answer or setup-sweeper. If you guessed wrong then you get the all important information of what they swapped to instead, or that they stayed in, and can try to predict their move and bring in something to dodge/absorb it.

TLDR: If a pokemon can hit everything fairly well (like say Mixed MegaGarchomp) then it cares not so much for moves like U-Turn. However for 99% of pokemon that get walled by certain things (Scizor, Greninja), moves like U-Turn are invaluable.

Baton passing gains as much momentum as U-turn does :/, just without any associated damage.

 

[Ranevski]

I worded that poorly, totally meant gains less momentum. (Still a great move, just not as good as U-Turn.)

 

[Magicfire]

U-Turn vs. no U-Turn is basically momentum vs. coverage. Personally, I'd would rather have coverage and just switch out on the blobs.

 

[VCrowe]

U-Turn vs. no U-Turn is basically momentum vs. coverage. Personally, I'd would rather have coverage and just switch out on the blobs.

But then you miss out on valuable damage against the blobs. U-turn is a great move on Greninja, and provides nearly the same coverage as Dark Pulse.

All those 2HKOs with U-turn you're so proud of? Easily accomplished and sometimes bested by his special movepool. U-turn is sweet, I get it. I DON'T get how dropping coverage when Greninja's only safe switch-ins are the blobs is sweet.

How does Dark Pulse help against Blissey and Chansey though? 88 Atk U-turn deals more damage to both Chansey and Blissey than 252 SAtk Dark Pulse.

88 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 136-161 (19.31 - 22.86%) -- possible 5HKO

252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 94-110 (13.35 - 15.62%) -- possible 7HKO

88 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 204-242 (31.28 - 37.11%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 86-101 (13.19 - 15.49%) -- 9HKO at best

Again, nearly the same coverage as Dark Pulse, hits the blobs for more damage, AND provides momentum.

 

[Dwish]

It's all about preference and team composition, I prefer dark pulse because I have mega venusaur and he gets rocked by psychic Pokemon, so I really want that dark coverage. They both have their advantages obviously, and at the end of the day it's as easy as switching TM's if you see that one isn't working out.