Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]

Do you think that Gengarite should be banned from OU?


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There's way too many SPECIFIC situational arguments being thrown around. Only problem I'd say he can't be countered, I've only seen a scarfed imposter Ditto force him out at will.
 
People wanting Mega Gengar to stay OU should argue from this perspective rather than debating how it actually performs in the metagame. In the latter's case, it's very clear at this point that on paper Mega Gengar is absolutely broken. I say on paper because I think we should take great care with banning any Pokemon, and I'm not convinced that we know enough about the metagame and the new mechanic in Mega Evolutions to ban Mega Gengar so quickly. I think this is the argument that the anti-ban side should be focusing on, IMO it's all they've got in this situation and Zracknel already made one of the best posts in the thread on it, but nobody else seems to have taken the advice of the pro-ban side to follow in his footsteps. It's too bad, really.

Personally I'm undecided, I'm leaning towards a quick ban since a suspect test would be a lot more effort for the exact same outcome, but maybe just not a quick ban right now. I don't see much harm in letting the metagame grow a bit more before making this decision, feel free to change my mind on that though.
 
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The dumbest set I have seen on the Ladder is the Hypnosis +3 attacks set. It is a gamble but it 3hkos everything not fat and pink. Also it should be running Modest imo, depends on what your team can handle. A Mega Gengar played well is incredibly overpowered (double switching) and I am confused to see anyone think otherwise. It can break down cores with little counter play, often luck if any, and its increased defence lets it take unboosted priority moves bar shadow sneak, and pursuit isn't exactly a staple on every team. The extra defensive is a lot more useful than it gets credit for. This meta will going to go in a sad direction if we allow Pokemon like Mega Gengar in OU.
 
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I am tired of seeing this argument. It is totally absurd, and it getting old to even be funny.

No Mengar user who is not drunk and under the influence of team rocket, team snagem, team skull, team dim sun, team meanies, Cipher, Phobos Battalion, Pokémon Pinchers, team galactic, team plasma, team flare, team aqua, team magma, Mylie Cyrus, Brittany Speares, and Justin Bieber would switch Mengar into a pursuit user.

Your pursuit trapper cannot switch in. therefore gengar has already trapped whatever it needs to open up a sweep.. for examples mega gengar takes out your gliscor, you teams only counter to lucario (to play more mindgames as for whom you want to mega). You can pursuit it with your tyranitar as much you like, but lucario is still sweeping the rest of your team. Gengar takes you your major counter to open up a sweep. Mengar is a utility pokemon, meaning that after it does it's job of removing your counter, it has no further use anymore. Whether or not you pursuited it does not matter: you're still getting swept by lucario.

Gengar chooses what it traps. After that, it's pretty much gg. mega left or not, you still lose.

Also, no half-intelligent person would try to perish trap a prankster user. It simply does not make sense. If you still wish to argue on, please read the last 10 pages and realize how broken your argument is, like mega gengar.
I thought people were going to perish song the turn something comes in. I mean, that's the counterargument all the pro-ban people are giving, that when whatever mons switches out, they perish song, protect, substitute, then fade away.

So if they try to do that to a wall, the wall can flee away to a counter like that one pursuit user, or a prankster user. If they try to perish trap an offensive pokémon, the poke can probably do enough damage on the perish song turn and retaliate after the protect turn later. But nobody would switch in perish song gengar against an offensive poke, obviously.

So, pro-banners are going in an endless discussion - because they are leaving out the parts that counter their own argument in purpose: The anti-ban arguments based on counters work as follows: either you switch out first turn against a counter and then sacrifice the counter to get rid of gengar, or you stay because your poke can deal damage and take out gengar with a perish turn attack + priority. But people try to counter these arguments by ignoring that you can switch out first turn (nobody would send a gengar against a counter, specially a pursuit trapper) or by asuming that everyone switches in first turn (everybody will send their priority users on perish turn and not deal enough damage to take out gengar on substitute turn).

And I don't think that's unintended. Maybe it's because I'm too much into politics, but it seems like common argument manipulation to me.

And I'm only taking two anti-ban arguments that are being tergiversated, but the same tactics are being used to every other argument. Taking out parts that are crucial in the environment the argument is used on to turn it into an invalid one.
 
So, at least the way I see it, Mega-Gengar shouldn't be banned. And here's why.

1st off: Why do we ban things at all? Well, it's because they either take the skill out of the game or severely limit the viaility of certain Pokémon simply because completely better pokémon exist. And this isn't really an outright ban on Mega Gengar; it's just moving it into a higher tier. And the tiers are a good idea, I think just about everyone will agree. And if you don't then you can still play übers, which is basically no tiers mode anyway.

So lets look at why it might be put in übers, as opposed to OU. Well, does it take the skill out of OU? I say no. Simply put, it's a fantastic revenge killer. But it won't sweep. It can't boost all that well, is easily revenge killed in turn by most fast scarfers, and honestly just doesn't beat that much of OU. It reminds me of gen 4 OU, when there were entire strategies around scouting for arena trap dugtrio. Certainly it was a threat to be prepared for. But Does that mean it should be in ubers only? I say no, simply because it lacks the destructive power, or even the support options of most Uber Pokémon. We don't ban pokémon simply because they force people to play a little differently. We just adapt our strategies and move on.

Mega Gengar is good. no doubt about it. But it's not a "get one good switch/free turn with this thing and win automatically" good. It's not the nuclear bomb that Blaziken is, or the divine judgement that is Arceus. It's a trapper with perish song, and destiny bond and taunt and sub/protect. Certainly it's deadly to teams that are so poorly made that they can't get around it. But that holds true of almost every good pokémon.

Overall, Mega Gengar is, at least to me, no different from paraflinch Jiarachi. Extremely annoying and dangerous, but beatable if you play smart, and are willing to make the occasional sacrifice for victory.
 
So, at least the way I see it, Mega-Gengar shouldn't be banned. And here's why.

1st off: Why do we ban things at all? Well, it's because they either take the skill out of the game or severely limit the viaility of certain Pokémon simply because completely better pokémon exist. And this isn't really an outright ban on Mega Gengar; it's just moving it into a higher tier. And the tiers are a good idea, I think just about everyone will agree. And if you don't then you can still play übers, which is basically no tiers mode anyway.

So lets look at why it might be put in übers, as opposed to OU. Well, does it take the skill out of OU? I say no. Simply put, it's a fantastic revenge killer. But it won't sweep. It can't boost all that well, is easily revenge killed in turn by most fast scarfers, and honestly just doesn't beat that much of OU. It reminds me of gen 4 OU, when there were entire strategies around scouting for arena trap dugtrio. Certainly it was a threat to be prepared for. But Does that mean it should be in ubers only? I say no, simply because it lacks the destructive power, or even the support options of most Uber Pokémon. We don't ban pokémon simply because they force people to play a little differently. We just adapt our strategies and move on.

Mega Gengar is good. no doubt about it. But it's not a "get one good switch/free turn with this thing and win automatically" good. It's not the nuclear bomb that Blaziken is, or the divine judgement that is Arceus. It's a trapper with perish song, and destiny bond and taunt and sub/protect. Certainly it's deadly to teams that are so poorly made that they can't get around it. But that holds true of almost every good pokémon.

Overall, Mega Gengar is, at least to me, no different from paraflinch Jiarachi. Extremely annoying and dangerous, but beatable if you play smart, and are willing to make the occasional sacrifice for victory.
I was going to post "this post gave me cancer" but I'll try to be constructive. You have a completely different outlook on competitive Pokemon, and I hope a lot of the votes for no ban didn't use this logic. At some point there needs to be some sort of balance, and in terms of revenge killing and trapping (mainly trapping and removing counters for your team to sweep), I don't think any Pokemon comes close to Gengar. It is too good at its role. Its not super strong and its role is not to be super strong and sweep. Skim through pages around 14-16 and you would get a better idea, I don't need to repeat it.
 
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I am beginning to see why people think Mega-Gengar needs to be banned. With the sheer amount of points listed, various calcs and detailed explanation, it is not an easy feat for the anti-bans (me included, but please don't be bias and stop reading >.<) Theoretically, it seems that Mega-Gengar is virtually unstoppable bar prediction and VERY specific counters, being blessed with shadow tag and a huge movepool. Honestly, I think this is all only on paper. Practicality wise, I really don't think perfect scenarios like these exist. Bringing in Gengar is a problem already. Sure, with 3 immunities, it isn't that hard right? Team Preview. Unless playing against bottom-feeders, people will play very cautiously against Gengars making it a prediction game all over again. And switching Gengar in and out after trapping, hazards are a major hazard, Sticky Web in particular. Don't forget, Levitate is gone. As the pro-bans always say, Mega-Gengar doesn't sweep. That is precisely why I do not think Mega-Gengar deserves the insta-ban. If it plows through the entire OU and is completely unwallable with no reliable counters, then I'd say it has to be ban. Unless someone here can tell me that they've reached top 10 in Pokebank OU with a Mega-Gengar consistently, I'm still sticking with Mega-Gengar being manageable.
 

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I am beginning to see why people think Mega-Gengar needs to be banned. With the sheer amount of points listed, various calcs and detailed explanation, it is not an easy feat for the anti-bans (me included, but please don't be bias and stop reading >.<) Theoretically, it seems that Mega-Gengar is virtually unstoppable bar prediction and VERY specific counters, being blessed with shadow tag and a huge movepool. Honestly, I think this is all only on paper. Practicality wise, I really don't think perfect scenarios like these exist. Bringing in Gengar is a problem already. Sure, with 3 immunities, it isn't that hard right? Team Preview. Unless playing against bottom-feeders, people will play very cautiously against Gengars making it a prediction game all over again. And switching Gengar in and out after trapping, hazards are a major hazard, Sticky Web in particular. Don't forget, Levitate is gone. As the pro-bans always say, Mega-Gengar doesn't sweep. That is precisely why I do not think Mega-Gengar deserves the insta-ban. If it plows through the entire OU and is completely unwallable with no reliable counters, then I'd say it has to be ban. Unless someone here can tell me that they've reached top 10 in Pokebank OU with a Mega-Gengar consistently, I'm still sticking with Mega-Gengar being manageable.
Hasn't this been disproved many times already? Kyogre has Water Spout. That's countered by Gastrodon, Jellicent, heck even Shedinja. Hydreigon, on the other hand, has no true counter since it has so many sets. Reminding again the definition fo counter: "something that can switch on another pokemon easily". Nothing can really switch in on Perish Song except Mr. Mime but that gets OHKOed by Shadow Ball. In fact, PerishTrap isn't even its best set. Taunt + 3 attacks is its best. So please, enough of this "counter" nonsense. Also, MGengar doesn't and isn't meant to sweep. It removes the counter(s) for the team's sweeper.
 
Hasn't this been disproved many times already? Kyogre has Water Spout. That's countered by Gastrodon, Jellicent, heck even Shedinja. Hydreigon, on the other hand, has no true counter since it has so many sets. Reminding again the definition fo counter: "something that can switch on another pokemon easily". Nothing can really switch in on Perish Song except Mr. Mime but that gets OHKOed by Shadow Ball. In fact, PerishTrap isn't even its best set. Taunt + 3 attacks is its best. So please, enough of this "counter" nonsense. Also, MGengar doesn't and isn't meant to sweep. It removes the counter(s) for the team's sweeper.
That is exactly my point. Those are the exact points that also show that Mega-Gengar doesn't need to be banned. Just because it isn't meant to sweep. It's because it's role in a team is a support which is why I do not think it deserves a ban. Perish Song is easily countered by U-turn/Volt Switch because of switch out priorities. All of his sets, once known, can be worked around it. Otherwise, why aren't any of the pro-banners in Top 10 for Pokebank OU?
 
Gengarite should be banned post-haste.

M-Gengar is just too good at everything it does. It has a versatile movepool to get rid of what it wants (Shadow Ball, Sludge Wave, HP, Thunderbolt, the list just keeps on going) and utility that pretty much allows the player to "handpick" which of the opponent's Pokemon will be out of the match.

Shadow Trapping is as good as it sounds. Want to get rid of the only threat on the opponent's team? Send in M-Gengar and Shadow Trap them. It is that simple. Even with Taunt, it is a very risky move since M-Gengar has 170 Base Sp. Attack to whack you with, and with no knowing what that move is. But that isn't the problem with M-Gengar.

The bulk of the problem is this: its flexibility. You don't know what you are going to expect with M-Gengar, since (imo) the best way to use one is to obliterate any counters on your team with this thing. And it does this job extremely well. So...how do you know that M-Gengar holds something to counter your "check" to M-Gengar? How will you know that it will Shadow Trap you before it is too late? You will never know because of how versatile it is in revenge-killing and utility.

Even if people run checks/counters to M-Gengar, it is very possible that, because of its versatility, it can take out its checks and counters, and when used right, is an almost ensured automatic win via taking out the threats of the other's team. It forces players to hold a "M-Gengar check/counter" to prevent the living abomination to run all over their team, and even so, M-Gengar can STILL run all over their team.
 
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IMega-Gengar doesn't sweep. That is precisely why I do not think Mega-Gengar deserves the insta-ban. If it plows through the entire OU and is completely unwallable with no reliable counters, then I'd say it has to be ban.
Let's take a few Gen V precedents where bans have been made because Pokemon were making it too easy for their teammates to sweep:

OU Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D: These Pokemon did not plough mercilessly through entire teams. However, they could get up Stealth Rock and and a layer of Spikes, guaranteed, pretty much every match, and had enough of a movepool to defeat every spinner and magic bouncer that tried to stop them. With the enemy ranks cluttered with hazards, it became a lot easier for the likes of Dragonite to sweep, so much so that it was deemed broken. Result: banned.

UU Froslass: Froslass again could reliably put up two layers of Spikes, with a naturally fast Taunt to prevent the opposition ruining her plans, Cursed Body to screw over Choice Scarf users trying to kill her before she laid the hazards, a Ghost-typing to prevent them being spun away, and Destiny Bond to take out one opponent. Result? Against Froslass leads there wasn't much you could do about being 5-5 with several layers of Spikes against you a few turns into the battle. Froslass made sweeping that much easier for her teammates, and there wasn't a lot you could do about her. Result: banned.

UU Wobbuffet: Another Shadow Tag user like Mega-Gengar. Whereas Mega-Gengar relies on its blazing speed to knock out everything without a Choice Scarf, Wobbuffet used its bulk and access to Counter and Mirror Coat to trap and dispose of Choice Scarf users. Once this was done, fast Life Orb users could plough through opposing offensive teams without even needing to boost. Wobbuffet made fast Pokemon impossible to revenge-kill. In addition, Wobbuffet could use Encore to lock a Pokemon into a useless move and switch out to a teammate to give it a free turn of set-up without the opponent being able to do anything, making sweeping even easier. Result: banned.

RU SmashPass: Lead Smeargle could reliably Spore a lead, Shell Smash on the switch and pass to the likes of Nidoqueen who would rampage through the opponent. Again, Smeargle made it too easy for teammates to sweep. Result: Shell Smash + Baton Pass banned.

In each case, these were bans made because a Pokemon made it too easy for its teammates sweep. Mega-Gengar is infinitely worse than any of these in that regard. Not only broken sweepers should be banned, we can easily ban broken walls and broken supporters too - I have just presented four suspects of that third kind that ended up getting banned. Mega-Gengar fits very much into that third category - the amount of stuff he can trap is just frightening. And if he traps a team's one counter to a certain threat, then he has done his job; with 130 base speed, Taunt, Destiny Bond and Perish Song there is very little he can't trap. Moreover he can customize his set to deal with whatever the sweeper he is clearing the way for can't beat on his own.
 
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Let's take a few Gen V precedents where bans have been made because Pokemon were making it too easy for their teammates to sweep:

OU Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D: These Pokemon did not plough mercilessly through entire teams. However, they could get up Stealth Rock and and a layer of Spikes, guaranteed, pretty much every match, and had enough of a movepool to defeat every spinner and magic bouncer that tried to stop them. With the enemy ranks cluttered with hazards, it became a lot easier for the likes of Dragonite to sweep, so much so that it was deemed broken. Result: banned.

UU Froslass: Froslass again could reliably put up two layers of Spikes, with a naturally fast Taunt to prevent the opposition ruining her plans, Cursed Body to screw over Choice Scarf users trying to kill her before she laid the hazards, a Ghost-typing to prevent them being spun away, and Destiny Bond to take out one opponent. Result? Against Froslass leads there wasn't much you could do about being 5-5 with several layers of Spikes against you a few turns into the battle. Froslass made sweeping that much easier for her teammates, and there wasn't a lot you could do about her. Result: banned.

RU SmashPass: Lead Smeargle could reliably Spore a lead, Shell Smash on the switch and pass to the likes of Nidoqueen who would rampage through the opponent. Again, Smeargle made it too easy for teammates to sweep. Result: Shell Smash + Baton Pass banned.

In each case, these were bans made because a Pokemon made it too easy for its teammates sweep. Mega-Gengar is infinitely worse than any of these in that regard. Not only broken sweepers should be banned, we can easily ban broken walls and broken supporters too - I have just prevented three suspects of that third kind that ended up getting banned. Mega-Gengar fits very much into that third category - the amount of stuff he can trap is just frightening. And if he traps a team's one counter to a certain threat, then he has done his job; with 130 base speed, Taunt, Destiny Bond and Perish Song there is very little he can't trap. Moreover he can customize his set to deal with whatever the sweeper he is clearing the way for can't beat on his own.
This is a good point. I agree with it till the part where Mega-Gengar is considered worse than any of the above. I beg to differ. Mega-Gengar is claimed to be worse because he 'easily' traps counters to your team. Taunt I can understand, Perish Song to an extent as well (once again, volt turners) and Destiny Bond as a last resort (can be played around tho). But comparing this to things like Deo-S and Froslass, those were DEFINITE threats while Mega-Gengar depends on the team. Even if they were predictable, they possessed the movepool and or typing + ability to execute their job without hindrance. To reiterate, you couldn't do anything about it even though you knew what was coming (bar the very specific counters, ie. Prankster Taunts). This was also why Genesect was banned from OU because you couldn't do anything about U-turn and that one move alone provided so much momentum, similar to the entry hazards. Mega-Gengar however, is arguably alot less predictable, true, but you are certain that it is going to be trapping counters. This knowledge in itself is Mega-Gengar's bane, turning the entire game into a game of prediction again. (ex. you know what he wants to send M-Gengar against so you take preventive measures but he might expect that and counters etc.) Unlike the other bans, M-Gengar has nothing to bring up on the table INSTANTLY (hazards, momentum etc.) and that means you can play around it. He definitely suffers from 4-moveslot syndrome and the reason is because he needs everything to be the perfect team support. Sure, customizing his moves to suit your team can CUT DOWN the chances of it being countered but it doesn't COMPLETELY ERASE, just like customizing any other Pokemon's moves. Kinda hard to explain this point but I hope you get it.
 
. Unless someone here can tell me that they've reached top 10 in Pokebank OU with a Mega-Gengar consistently, I'm still sticking with Mega-Gengar being manageable.
Bahaha, top 10 in pokebank. I have talked with 5 of the top ten (me being one of them) on PS! and have played all but the top ranked user. We really aren't all that. It ends up being you whois the top ten to see who is on and then develop an idea of how to beat them. I will say this, though, in that top 10, I do not recall a mega gengar existing... I ran mawile, Qseasons was running Lucario (not sure if that changed) RS generally runs a different team for every account (I really think it's Lucario and Kan for his top 10 accounts), McBarrett runs scizor (says someone in the OU room, couldn't recall myself), and Esperante (he got provisional again but is #2 otherwise) runs mega heracross. If you want to verify, I'm Aj'sDreamsDied and you can check with the OU room guys.


I thought people were going to perish song the turn something comes in. I mean, that's the counterargument all the pro-ban people are giving, that when whatever mons switches out, they perish song, protect, substitute, then fade away.

So if they try to do that to a wall, the wall can flee away to a counter like that one pursuit user, or a prankster user. If they try to perish trap an offensive pokémon, the poke can probably do enough damage on the perish song turn and retaliate after the protect turn later. But nobody would switch in perish song gengar against an offensive poke, obviously.

So, pro-banners are going in an endless discussion - because they are leaving out the parts that counter their own argument in purpose: The anti-ban arguments based on counters work as follows: either you switch out first turn against a counter and then sacrifice the counter to get rid of gengar, or you stay because your poke can deal damage and take out gengar with a perish turn attack + priority. But people try to counter these arguments by ignoring that you can switch out first turn (nobody would send a gengar against a counter, specially a pursuit trapper) or by asuming that everyone switches in first turn (everybody will send their priority users on perish turn and not deal enough damage to take out gengar on substitute turn).

And I don't think that's unintended. Maybe it's because I'm too much into politics, but it seems like common argument manipulation to me.

And I'm only taking two anti-ban arguments that are being tergiversated, but the same tactics are being used to every other argument. Taking out parts that are crucial in the environment the argument is used on to turn it into an invalid one.
This thread is sad because it has just become the pro ban side literally cursing out users and the anti-ban side struggling to counter the paragraphs of whining. I think it is alot tougher for the anti ban side to make an argument based on the point that the metagame is so so fresh and it is way easier to point to this stat, and that stat, and that stat, and this user that thinks its broken, and this ability and this teammate and just throw up your hands and call it broken. Then the anti ban side has to counter every single point or his/her argument is worthless or just gets ignored all together even though it makes some sense and it doesn't contain f bombs every sentence or stupid mspaint drawings (because that worked well for keldeo). With that said I think it should be banned. It is the best revenge killer in the game and the best overall user of shadow tag. Regular gengar with Shadow tag would be broken so with the stat increases it is just over the top imo. Thanks , come again.
As someone who can identify logical fallacies when I see one, let me explain why this is unfair as a whole. Both posts go after specific posts (Jude more so to Yellow and Curtains definitely to Rexxx) and say that everyone arguing the pro-ban side has done the same. This is simply not true, especially in Curtains' case where this is a very specific user that was then expanded to encompass the whole lot of us. Also, the idea that A.) We (specifically I) are leaving out crucial parts and B.) We (specifically not me) are ignoring points are both untrue. The pro-ban side has a great deal of points that have been made, both good and bad.

Let me quickly reiterate where I stand about what is fair game with Mega gengar. This is by no means a tried and perfect way to argue, but ifeel that it would be best to at least stray towards most of these points.

We should discuss:
Pursuit trappers
- They are the best way to stop mega gengar as we are only for sure knowing these will hit.
Role as Support- This is obvious, we aren't dealing with a sweeper. Can he or can he not use 4 moves to take out common threats to sweepers.
Safe switches and their relevance/occurrence rate. Discussing turns that would be 50/50 are unfortunately closer to theorymoning and prediction, which will be under what we shouldn't discuss.
Definition of a support/how it compares: I've already started comparing this, but if anyone wants to make an argument that there are others that perform the uber support role better or gengar doesn't fit, I'm willing to play ball on that.
Deterrents to mega gengar. I don't like using sticky web here, but rocks/spikes may be a legitimate point if it were to damage enough to stop it from fulfilling his job. Pursuit trappers are also relevant here.
Over centralization: Does stopping mega gengar cause usage of pokemon/moves that would generally not be used?
Play style: Does mega gengar cause play styles to be shifted in ways they would not be? If so, is this positive or negative to the metagame as a whole?

We should avoid:
Anything involving prediction:
Prediction in itself is not a set skill and has no formula. For our sake, getting as close to constants and controls is the best thing we can do, so adding variables of how a player thinks into this is a bad idea. This has happened on both sides.
1v1 Situations: I know this may seem a bit unfair to the anti-ban side, but let's face it: We're not dealing with something that can beat everything it looks at. Sure, the pro-ban side needs to accept this more, but realistically unless we can find a wall that this thing isn't killing (probably besides jellicent/other wall ghosts), this really isn't a great idea. If we want to talk counters, please continue the discussion on pursuit counters. I think that's positive input. If this was a setup mon, counters are fine. Support, however, is supposed to have counters. How often is ferrothron staying in on heatran? Same thing applies here. Which is why pursuit trapping is relevant.
Gengar's support: Realistically, he should not have much. He is support for something else. We can talk about what he supports, just not really reference what supports him.
Beating a dead ponyta: Seriously, read the thread a bit before posting... We're trying to get somewhere.

I think that this where the grounds of discussion should stick. Quickly, remember that uber support is a pokemon that makes it incredibly easy for another pokemon to sweep. Ergo, sweeper mega gengar in context is just being misused and really to the purpose of this thread, shouldn't exist EVEN IF that's what is seen most often on the ladder. I, though, have stated my points and really would rather just help keep this argument on track rather than participate (unless someone responds to/needs responding to).
 
This is a good point. I agree with it till the part where Mega-Gengar is considered worse than any of the above. I beg to differ. Mega-Gengar is claimed to be worse because he 'easily' traps counters to your team. Taunt I can understand, Perish Song to an extent as well (once again, volt turners) and Destiny Bond as a last resort (can be played around tho). But comparing this to things like Deo-S and Froslass, those were DEFINITE threats while Mega-Gengar depends on the team. Even if they were predictable, they possessed the movepool and or typing + ability to execute their job without hindrance. To reiterate, you couldn't do anything about it even though you knew what was coming (bar the very specific counters, ie. Prankster Taunts). This was also why Genesect was banned from OU because you couldn't do anything about U-turn and that one move alone provided so much momentum, similar to the entry hazards. Mega-Gengar however, is arguably alot less predictable, true, but you are certain that it is going to be trapping counters. This knowledge in itself is Mega-Gengar's bane, turning the entire game into a game of prediction again. (ex. you know what he wants to send M-Gengar against so you take preventive measures but he might expect that and counters etc.) Unlike the other bans, M-Gengar has nothing to bring up on the table INSTANTLY (hazards, momentum etc.) and that means you can play around it. He definitely suffers from 4-moveslot syndrome and the reason is because he needs everything to be the perfect team support. Sure, customizing his moves to suit your team can CUT DOWN the chances of it being countered but it doesn't COMPLETELY ERASE, just like customizing any other Pokemon's moves. Kinda hard to explain this point but I hope you get it.
Point taken about prediction working both ways, but consider this:

Gengar comes in on a wall that is preventing a teammate sweeping and traps it. Gengar's team subsequently wins with ease. "Fair enough", you might say, "you lost that because you mispredicted".

Now consider what happens if you DO predict correctly and switch to your Choice Scarf user that can revenge-kill Gengar. Gengar just switches out again so he can try to trap the wall later! Gengar could potentially get three or four tries to do this, and if you guess wrong once, Gengar wins. That doesn't seem fair.
 
MGengar really is starting to seem like genesect was, certainly counterable (heatran, sometimes rotom w, etc.) but at the same time, so diverse and unpredictable in terms of its sets (physical lifeorb, banded, mixed lifeorb, ebelt, scarf, specs, etc.) with a massive movepool of dangerous moves that it was banned. Sure, you could easily make a team that completely ignores one kind of genesect, but then another kind could demolish your entire team, with no warning. Gengar is the same; it can beat more or less all of its counters by running different moves/evs, and the fact that you can't tell what kind of Gengar you're facing until it has done its job makes it broken
 
Point taken about prediction working both ways, but consider this:

Gengar comes in on a wall that is preventing a teammate sweeping and traps it. Gengar's team subsequently wins with ease. "Fair enough", you might say, "you lost that because you mispredicted".

Now consider what happens if you DO predict correctly and switch to your Choice Scarf user that can revenge-kill Gengar. Gengar just switches out again so he can try to trap the wall later! Gengar could potentially get three or four tries to do this, and if you guess wrong once, Gengar wins. That doesn't seem fair.
Fair point. Didn't really think through the prediction game. Hazards will be detrimental to this. Also, I guess this is a soft counter in a way? Stops Gengar from doing it's job, albeit temporarily. I do understand it's not very reliable in most situations. Will think through more scenarios.
 
There's way too many SPECIFIC situational arguments being thrown around. Only problem I'd say he can't be countered, I've only seen a scarfed imposter Ditto force him out at will.
From what I can tell, that's the important point. Every argument is situational. Gengar is a situational Pokémon. The critical thing is, the Mega-Gengar user gets to decide the situation thanks to Shadow Tag, which means that the Mega Gengar can easily be set up to take advantage of that specific situation.

I'm a new member of the community, and very, very new to competitive battling. I'd like to take a moment to thank everyone who has posted here in this thread. I've learned a ton (even if it took forever to read through it all), about the metagame, Smogon's systems and rules for handling bans, different ways to take advantage of situations, and more. Even though I think the decision is clear at this time (and probably was clear since the thread started), just seeing all the discussion has given me a ton of insight.

By the way, I saw the huge list of things that Mega-Gengar can effectively trap kill, and I am wondering: How does it fare against the other Megas one-on-one? I do understand that it won't matter, as Mega-Gengar doesn't have to stay in against a Pokémon it can't take one-on-one, but I'm curious to see which ones would fall on the list.

One final question: Is Sludge Wave from a Dream World Gastly only, or can it be bred or otherwise transferred to another Gengar by some means?
 
That is exactly my point. Those are the exact points that also show that Mega-Gengar doesn't need to be banned. Just because it isn't meant to sweep. It's because it's role in a team is a support which is why I do not think it deserves a ban. Perish Song is easily countered by U-turn/Volt Switch because of switch out priorities. All of his sets, once known, can be worked around it. Otherwise, why aren't any of the pro-banners in Top 10 for Pokebank OU?
The problem is that Mega Gengar gets rid of that pokemon that was the only thing between that Mega Lucario and you. If I have a Mega Lucario that I want to sweep with, and Skarmory was in the way, I would merely slap on Mega Gengar to my team and Thunderbolt on Mega Gengar. Then that's a dead Skarmory for you. Of course, there's all that prediction stuff, but my job becomes so much more easier if I have another physical sweeper on my team. Then you would be in a position to switch in your Skarmory to take a hit, and I can switch in Mega Gengar to trap your Skarmory. Of course, I can just run Scizor and Rotom-W as well, making my job infinitely more easier, just coming in on things that I want to kill using the momentum of U-Turn and Volt Switch. And sweepers are not the only things to be banned. We are trying to quick ban Mega Gengar based on the Uber support clause. Mega Gengar just makes it way too easy to break down the opponent's team before finishing them off. This is why we are attempting to quick ban Mega Gengar. Also, the argument that a quick ban is too quick is not that good. If we have a suspect test, do you honestly believe that the result would be different? No. Everyone would realize just how broken PerishTrap Mega Gengar is, how good of a trapper Mega Gengar is, and what unbelievable team support Mega Gengar is. And suspect tests just take too many resources, time, and effort. It would be a waste of everyone's time, when we could be suspect testing something else in order to get closer to that perfect OU metagame that I KNOW everyone wants.

Edit: Thanks Rechi :D
 
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The problem is that Mega Gengar gets rid of that pokemon that was the only thing between that Mega Lucario and you. If I have a Mega Lucario that I want to sweep with, and Skarmory was in the way, I would merely slap on Mega Gengar to my team and Thunderbolt on Mega Gengar.
I agree on everything you said but I hope you meant regular Lucario because you can't use Mega Lucario and Mega Gengar on the same team.
 
Sweepers are not the only things to be banned. We are trying to quick ban Mega Gengar based on the Uber support clause.
This is what keeps banning Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D every Generation. Isn't the point of this clause, as my brother once put it, "to make sure Pokemon that do their job well stay and those that do it TOO well go"?

After much more battling...Mega Gengar is practically what Genesect was in BW2. It's everywhere, checks and counters are ALWAYS being used, and the entire Metagame is shifting around a single Pokemon, whether its use or destruction. After looking at it closer, yeah...Gengar may be my favorite Pokemon, but Mega Gengar is quite the threat. I'm surprised nobody (or BARELY anybody, really) brought up that despite its Earthquake weakness, it can now absorb Toxic Spikes, ALSO making it easier for other Pokemon to pull a sweep (though Toxic Spikes in this Meta is a lulz thanks to Defog and other Hazards seeming like better options).

At this point, my view has somewhat changed. I can completely see Mega Gengar being banned from OU. It may have checks, but Shadow Tag and the right move can stop that dead.
 
From what I can tell, that's the important point. Every argument is situational. Gengar is a situational Pokémon. The critical thing is, the Mega-Gengar user gets to decide the situation thanks to Shadow Tag, which means that the Mega Gengar can easily be set up to take advantage of that specific situation.

I'm a new member of the community, and very, very new to competitive battling. I'd like to take a moment to thank everyone who has posted here in this thread. I've learned a ton (even if it took forever to read through it all), about the metagame, Smogon's systems and rules for handling bans, different ways to take advantage of situations, and more. Even though I think the decision is clear at this time (and probably was clear since the thread started), just seeing all the discussion has given me a ton of insight.

By the way, I saw the huge list of things that Mega-Gengar can effectively trap kill, and I am wondering: How does it fare against the other Megas one-on-one? I do understand that it won't matter, as Mega-Gengar doesn't have to stay in against a Pokémon it can't take one-on-one, but I'm curious to see which ones would fall on the list.

One final question: Is Sludge Wave from a Dream World Gastly only, or can it be bred or otherwise transferred to another Gengar by some means?
Welcome to the party, mate! Glad to hear this thread helped you out.

As for the other Megas, its worth noting that Megas should be treated like any other Pokemon, not as anything special. Also, you really don't want to do one on one battles with Mega Gengar, you want to be picking off weakened or helpless Pokemon. That said...
  • Mega Kangaskan is a head game. Sucker Punch and Earthquake both kill Mega Gengar, but Mega Gengar can hit it hard with Focus Blast or go for Destiny Bond to take it out.
  • Mega Absol and Mega Mawile are similar, but Gengar can avoid being hit by using Substitute.
  • Mega Lucario is going to get wrecked unless it runs Bullet Punch, which is going to hurt if not OHKO, or if it runs a mixed or special set with Flash Cannon or Shadow Ball and hits it on the switch in.
  • Mega Tyranitar takes a ton of damage from Focus Blast, but can take the hit in sandstorm and OHKO with Crunch, or alternatively OHKO with Pursuit if Gengar switches out. Also, after a Dragon Dance Mega Tar actually outspeeds you and OHKOs, so that's something to keep in mind.
  • Mega Aerodactyl outspeeds you.
  • Mega Manectric speed ties with you and can escape with Volt Switch.
  • Mega Medicham is crazy risky to challenge. You can self damage it with High Jump Kick, but Psycho Cut OHKOs you so it isn't a good switch in. It also gets Bullet Punch, which probably won't OHKO but will certainly pick off a weakened Mega Gengar.
The rest of them are handled as you would any other Pokemon: Pick them off when it appeals to you.
 

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Unless someone here can tell me that they've reached top 10 in Pokebank OU with a Mega-Gengar consistently, I'm still sticking with Mega-Gengar being manageable.
That's an absurd statement.

Wobbuffet never made it to Top 10 in Shoddy Battle OU IIRC. In fact, it was barely touched. This is Generation 4 that we're speaking of.

No one has to reach Top 10 to have a consensus on Mega-Gengar being Uber material. I will outline this so that everyone understands:

THE SHEER UTILITY IT BRINGS ALONE IS FUCKING OVERPOWERED!

There. I said it.
 
Welcome to the party, mate! Glad to hear this thread helped you out.

As for the other Megas, its worth noting that Megas should be treated like any other Pokemon, not as anything special. Also, you really don't want to do one on one battles with Mega Gengar, you want to be picking off weakened or helpless Pokemon. That said...
  • Mega Kangaskan is a head game. Sucker Punch and Earthquake both kill Mega Gengar, but Mega Gengar can hit it hard with Focus Blast or go for Destiny Bond to take it out.
  • Mega Absol and Mega Mawile are similar, but Gengar can avoid being hit by using Substitute.
  • Mega Lucario is going to get wrecked unless it runs Bullet Punch, which is going to hurt if not OHKO, or if it runs a mixed or special set with Flash Cannon or Shadow Ball and hits it on the switch in.
  • Mega Tyranitar takes a ton of damage from Focus Blast, but can take the hit in sandstorm and OHKO with Crunch, or alternatively OHKO with Pursuit if Gengar switches out. Also, after a Dragon Dance Mega Tar actually outspeeds you and OHKOs, so that's something to keep in mind.
  • Mega Aerodactyl outspeeds you.
  • Mega Manectric speed ties with you and can escape with Volt Switch.
  • Mega Medicham is crazy risky to challenge. You can self damage it with High Jump Kick, but Psycho Cut OHKOs you so it isn't a good switch in. It also gets Bullet Punch, which probably won't OHKO but will certainly pick off a weakened Mega Gengar.
The rest of them are handled as you would any other Pokemon: Pick them off when it appeals to you.
Mega Manetric actually outspeeds you if it's running Timid.

Don't try to face Mega Medicham, Kangaskhan, Absol, Mawile, Scizor, Aerodactyl, or Lucario one-on-one. They manhandle you with priority/bulk+strong attacks.

Mega Tyranitar needs 252/136 Careful to avoid getting OHKOed by Focus Blast after SR. In that case, Pursuit is doing 67-79% if Mega Gengar stays in, but Crunch is killing it. Dragon Dance builds rarely run this much bulk to begin with, and if you really want that bulk you are probably running AV Tyranitar. I just Sub Turn 1 before I Mega, and that usually does the trick.

Just clarifying.
 
I've been reading this thread for a few days now (or at least kept up with more relevant posts) and all I see of the anti-ban side is that they don't consider it broken because of how easy it is to beat on the ladder. Or that because it can't hurt the things it's supposed to kill it isn't broken because it can't sweep that way. Or that, while Shadow Tag is stupid, the one turn needed to attain it makes it bearable. Or something. Obviously, I mention these to refute these.

First of all, the majority of ladderers sucks. No really, it's one thing when people use pokemon with crappy moves, it's another when they use LC legal mons (WITH crappy movesets).

Second, as many, many, MANY people have mentioned, it's supposed to SUPPORT with trapping, not to attempt a unsuccesful sweep (against you. Which you then use as proof that MGengar sucks and doesn't needs to be banned. While not mentioning the NVE's that were on the same team). Comparisons to Duggy and Magnezone are crappy, as Shadow Tag lets it pick ANYTHING not a Ghost-type or holding a Shed Shell to trap and kill with either Perish Song, Destiny Bond, Shadow Ball spam against a Physical wall or another one of its many tricks. Using Shed Shell? Now you lose out on longevity (Leftovers), extra bulk (Assualt Vest), a surprise item for lure purposes (Resist Berries etc) and so on. And if you think that running 6 Ghosts (that are weak against Gengar's main stab, btw) is gonna solve ST issues...

In this day and age, with the power creep and whatnot, losing your dedicated counter to whatever is gonna get you losses whenever "whatever" is still alive when this happens. So what if you are so scared of using your counter of it's intended use that you don't switch it in in fear of a instant lose situation due MGengar that, instead, you slowly lose anyway as your other mons aren't capable of handling "whatever"?

Finally, mentions of how the one turn needed to Mevo can screw Gengar over is a lie. Gengar is a mon that is very, very well versed in the ways of using Substitute to get a free turn, after forcing out something like Toxic Staller Gliscor, who can't touch Gengar and doesn't really enjoy Shadow Balls of any kind.

Have to edit this later, gotta go now.

EDIT:
@dw0914
The thing is, with the powercreep and all, it's already hard enough to find counters to specific, hard hitting mons. And even if there is more than one counter available to said mon, odds are that you will only be running one, especially considering there are over 700 mons now and that, assuming around half can be a threat/is fully evolved (not going to check if this is actually the case), you have many threats to cover. You're going to use each and every teamslot to make sure you can cover as much ground as possible, regardless of what style you use, so usually, dedicated, viable counters to a certain mon on your team is going to be one at best, as using multiple mons to counter the one sweeper that MGengar is supporting IS going to open up a hole in your team. Even if the amount of threats to keep in mind will drop due an eventual list of mons that made the OU cutoff, you're not going to use multiple walls for one threat.

And this is exactly why ST is extremely stupid. Constraints that force you to carry one counter for a bunch of threats that are similar are also the thing that screw you over when MGengar traps it and gets rid of it. You can't afford to carry another one.

Additionally, Volt-turn is still a very viable and strong playstyle, granting easy switch-ins to MGengar (be it due the opponent switching out of the Volt-turner or the Volt-turner being slower then the opponent), often even into the things it can kill. And remember, even if you do kill Gengar, you literally will only be able to do so after the crucial kill has been done. Afterwards it's just a case of finding the set-up turn and GG.
 
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Yes, it does. The mere presence of a Gengar on my opponent's team means I have to keep Tyranitar alive or at least keep hazards off my field to I can switch in Talonflame if Gengar kills something. The risk of making a Tyranitar switch-in into anything has to be assessed when your opponent has a Gengar, and more often than not Gengar is a deterrent. Which is one of the reasons it is so good.

But prediction goes both ways. There is a lot more prediction in playing against Mega Gengar. I have a 50% HP Gliscor against my opponent's 1% Dugtrio. If I use Earthquake, my opponent gets a free switch to Mega Gengar and I lose my Gliscor, which may be my only mon that can stop my opponent's Lucario sweep. Or maybe you have a Rotom-W against said Dugtrio. You don't want it to die because otherwise your opponent sweeps with Talonflame. With prediction, the odds are stacked in favor of Mega Gengar even more.
 
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