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Pokémon Avalugg
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Technically, Cloyster gets Rapid Spin as well, but I've never seen anyone run it, ever.
What do you mean? This thing walls most Physical Attackers on OU, why you trying to bring it down to UU? Rocky Helmet + Recover means you can wall all the big threats and just let them ill themselves. Garchomp is OHKO by Avalanche and can only 2HKO you. Roar lets you force out people that set up on you and toxic lets you further damage the ones that keep attacking you.
My question is to people prefer the curse set or toxic stall?
The only ou threats it ''walls'' are dragonite are landorus-t. Everything else can ko it on the switch in or just muscle through it while laughing at its attacks. But really this is a spinner that is weak to stealth rock and vulnerable to spikes/toxic spikes, you arent staying healthy through the match to take on anything. This is just a reversed cryogonal but worse, since its weakness are mainly physical moves which ruins the entire point of having a huge physical bulk. I dont even know why people keep mentioning a phys def spread when it should always maximize its sp def instead.
You half have me, half don't. He isn't terrible for not being able to survive a 3rd E-quake from a M-Garchomp. The fact that his defensive typing is so terrible and comparing him to such a beast as Chomp shows how truly impressive his stats are. TBH, I originally tried to max his SpDef with AV and go for an attacker set, but recover was too good to pass up. Now I run with full SpDef evs and full HP.
So, I agree with you on his SpDef preference, but not the argument that his defense is terrible.
0 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 528-624 (147.4 - 174.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And Garchomp can only do at most ~47% of Avalugg's HP with a Super Stone Edge. If he gets locked into Outrage (oddly) or is up with a Fire Blast:
0- SpA Mega Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Avalugg: 188-222 (47.7 - 56.3%) -- 29.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And that's outright. I doubt you would expect the switch into him most of the time, as many wouldn't expect him in the first place, let alone as a special variant. This gives him loads of survivability with recover allowing him to gain some back on SR setters or stallers, whom he hits extraordinarily hard coming from his base 117 Atk.
I'd love to get more action with mine honestly, as he is incredibly powerful once any Special Fire/Fighting has been handled. It's been too long since I was sweeping whole teams of unprepared sweepers with this thing.
I would just like to pop into this forum and show you all the power of Avalugg when it has the proper team support. ...That and I'm pretty damn proud of how Infernape got killed. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-79717212
At any rate, with my use of Avalugg, it's either been a great Pokemon or a mediocre one. I haven't gotten a good Rapid Spin off except for that battle but as you can see in it, that giant physical bulk is nothing to laugh at. Honestly, with the exception of most Pokemon who run Stone Edge as coverage and even then Sturdy might be able to save you there - I wouldn't call it a "Niche." I would call it a very tough Pokemon to play correctly, but the moment you let it start running? You're going to have a very tough time fighting back against something that can literally let your attacks slide.
At any rate, with my use of Avalugg, it's either been a great Pokemon or a mediocre one. I haven't gotten a good Rapid Spin off except for that battle but as you can see in it, that giant physical bulk is nothing to laugh at. Honestly, with the exception of most Pokemon who run Stone Edge as coverage and even then Sturdy might be able to save you there - I wouldn't call it a "Niche." I would call it a very tough Pokemon to play correctly, but the moment you let it start running? You're going to have a very tough time fighting back against something that can literally let your attacks slide.
The opposing Infernape is paralyzed! It can't move!
Yeah of course everything is great when the RNG screws with your opponent, i fail to see how that replay proves anything. Avalugg did nothing except get lucky, your opponent was pretty bad by trying to setup on an obvious specs sylveon with a 75% health pinsir and seriously, luxray? Also Chev mega garchomp always runs sp attack evs and will cleanly 2hko any avalugg with fire blast.
Yeah of course everything is great when the RNG screws with your opponent, i fail to see how that replay proves anything. Avalugg did nothing except get lucky, your opponent was pretty bad by trying to setup on an obvious specs sylveon with a 75% health pinsir and seriously, luxray? Also Chev mega garchomp always runs sp attack evs and will cleanly 2hko any avalugg with fire blast.
He does with or without the evs, but he won't be predicting that switch everytime, nor would going for Fire Blast on something that is feared out by EQ or DC usually do too much. So we can figure ~37% damage prior, he fails to do 63% with a FB, unless invested quite a bit, wasting precious evs otherwise. Avalugg will come in, soak a hit, soak a FB and revenge kill with Avalanche everytime in that scenario. Thats a pretty decent poke to be keeping up with a mega.
I'm not saying he's A rank material or anything, just that he is a legitimate pokemon to use in OU, as he has quite a few uses and niches that can filled easily. OU material by far, use in UU maybe, but not likely with his actual bulk for what mons are down there.
Weakened, yes, but look at the damage it did after the fact. That's undeniable.
EDIT: Goddamn YouTube formatting on the brain.
EDIT: Goddamn YouTube formatting on the brain.
Rotosect
Banned deucer.
For the last time Avalugg isn't a spinner in OU. It has no business trying to play as one in that tier. Cloyster gets Rapid Spin but that doesn't mean it should be played as a spinner instead of a sweeper.
You need Avalanche for STAB, EQ for near-perfect coverage, Recover for obvious reasons and most importatly Roar to phaze Scizor, Talonflame, Mega Mawile and other things that try to set up on it.
As I said a few posts ago raw stats matter more than defensive type when I compared Avalugg to Lugia. Just pretend that against fire/rock/fighting/steel moves its physical bulk is 95/90 instead of 95/184, which is still pretty damn good. While it gets 2HKO'd by astonishingly powerful things like M-Lucario's Close Combat, so does everything else, but it doesn't change that being able to wall powerful physical threats is enough of a niche to warrant its use. If your team has Defog, Avalugg is the all-purpose physical wall you should use.
As for a specially defensive set, with Assault Vest and Mirror Coat it can bait and defeat many special attackers but it requires massive support to be effective. Better stick to what it does best.
Then just use skarmory or ferrothorn or hippowdon or tangrowth or slowbro, that bulk means nothing when most physical attackers can deal catastrophic amounts of damage to you anyway. Typing is a lot more important than stats, thats why eviolite rhydon in sand will never be a thing and thats why skarmory is the premier physical wall in ou despite having lower bulk than several other mons.
Less hyperbole everyone please. Typing isn't always more important than stats or vice versa, its everything taken into account of course. Spiritomb used to have one of the best typings before this gen, having no weaknesses and three immunities. Why didn't people use it? Bad stats. Sableye has the same typing and similarly unimpressive stats. Why is he viable in OU? His ability, and support movepool. Kyurem-B has an outrageous stat total and one of the highest attack stats in the game and numerous high BP moves. Why isn't he Uber? His typing (also physical movepool).
Ice =/= unusable. KyuB and Avalugg are examples of stats so high they compensate somewhat for their typing. Avalugg's Defense is so good no unboosted super effective STAB can actually OHKO it, regardless of Sturdy.
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 324-384 (82.2 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Anything that can take a STAB 150 BP move from a maxed 185 Attack stat and NEVER be 2HKOd normally has one disgusting Defense stat. In fact, this kind of underestimating is what leads many physical attackers to a surprise death.
NOW! The question of, is Avalugg a good fit for your team? Unlike many walls, that's a very conditional situation. I certainly at least can't think of an instance where somebody would say Avalugg is exactly what their team needs. Not like Skarmory for sure. If you want something physically sturdy with STAB Ice attacks that may be justification enough to use him on an OU team. And that's all that really needs to be said on the matter. Everyone knows how to handle Skarmory, but many people aren't aware of how best to handle an Avalugg necessarily. You think Terrakion would switch away from an Avalugg with super effective STAB Close Combat and Stone Edge?
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 270-320 (68.5 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Avalugg Earthquake vs. -2 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 360-424 (111.4 - 131.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Recover on the same turn and heal up to still a safe range. You survive the second and an Earthquake, or Avalanche, is now a very easy OHKO. Therein lies the danger of Avalugg.
There are safer choices for a physical wall, but Avalugg can function.
Ice =/= unusable. KyuB and Avalugg are examples of stats so high they compensate somewhat for their typing. Avalugg's Defense is so good no unboosted super effective STAB can actually OHKO it, regardless of Sturdy.
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 324-384 (82.2 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Anything that can take a STAB 150 BP move from a maxed 185 Attack stat and NEVER be 2HKOd normally has one disgusting Defense stat. In fact, this kind of underestimating is what leads many physical attackers to a surprise death.
NOW! The question of, is Avalugg a good fit for your team? Unlike many walls, that's a very conditional situation. I certainly at least can't think of an instance where somebody would say Avalugg is exactly what their team needs. Not like Skarmory for sure. If you want something physically sturdy with STAB Ice attacks that may be justification enough to use him on an OU team. And that's all that really needs to be said on the matter. Everyone knows how to handle Skarmory, but many people aren't aware of how best to handle an Avalugg necessarily. You think Terrakion would switch away from an Avalugg with super effective STAB Close Combat and Stone Edge?
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 270-320 (68.5 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Avalugg Earthquake vs. -2 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 360-424 (111.4 - 131.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Recover on the same turn and heal up to still a safe range. You survive the second and an Earthquake, or Avalanche, is now a very easy OHKO. Therein lies the danger of Avalugg.
There are safer choices for a physical wall, but Avalugg can function.
Three things.
First: 252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 372-440 (94.4 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO Mmm, barring Sturdy, that's a better-than-not chance to OHKO. Nice cherry pick, bro. I'd look up more attacks that can do the same, but your claim was that no unboosted SE STAB attack could OHKO, which I already beat, so it's irrelevant.
Second: That trick with Terrakion only works when Terrakion gets consistently low damage rolls. If it rolls high you're risking getting 2HKO'd AFTER the Recover. Max roll 100 - 81.2 = 18.2 + 56.25 = 74.45. Still in range for a 2HKO. Maybe a little unlikely, but still possible.
Third: Why would you mention Kyurem-B when his not being Uber is literally the same problem Avalugg has, bad typing? That's just proving the point, not countering it.
Choice Band counts as a boost, or modifier if you will. Mega Heracross can't hold an item. I chose my words purposefully, not to exaggerate he's invincible, just that he has underestimated physical bulk. So replace my use of the word "unboosted" with "natural Attack stat" if you wish.
I never said it was a reliable or consistent strategy. I simply think that the ability to live two Choice Band Close Combats and come out on top is again, supportive of my point in underestimating his physical bulk.
But I can alter it if you wish.
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Avalugg: 312-368 (79.1 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Avalugg Earthquake vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 332-392 (102.7 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
There, no Recover needed. Not that 252 At is a great idea but it better highlights my point about his underestimated physical bulk. Skarmory can't boast this feat. But please people, read my previous statements that said Skarmory is still a better choice for a physical wall, I don't want to be wrongly accused.
Lastly, Brawl said typing is a lot more important than stats, as if to imply no amount of stats can make, say, an Ice type viable, when we know this to be false. I'm simply trying to debunk an exaggeration and nothing more. I'm not arguing for the extreme in either place. I'm really just playing devil's advocate here, because I personally am irked by hyperbole.
I was hoping someone would point that out. I was about to but then this appeared. (I think the term is Greninja'd?? Shrug?)
Honestly, powerful ice STAB loses its major niche when dragons are a lot less powerful this gen due to the fairies, while its defensive capability may somehow be justified through out the discussion, nothing other than sheer bulkiness have been. And before one screams about the coverage of Ice Earth combo, let's not forget that the EQ is unstabbed, Terraskion and Lucario are all weak to it so the calculations above are in fact rather misleading.
A rather bad example but this should complete the story of Heracross, given that you some how manage to switch in without taking prior damage. In such case Heracross with fire off rock blast instead, which 2HKO you regardless, so I am not including the -1.
4 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 132-156 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Another huge bias in the discussion is that tanks ARE supposed to counter faster attackers to begin with. Being able to bearly (a bit exaggerating, but not entirely false) do its assigned job does not make you stand out.
A rather bad example but this should complete the story of Heracross, given that you some how manage to switch in without taking prior damage. In such case Heracross with fire off rock blast instead, which 2HKO you regardless, so I am not including the -1.
4 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 132-156 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Another huge bias in the discussion is that tanks ARE supposed to counter faster attackers to begin with. Being able to bearly (a bit exaggerating, but not entirely false) do its assigned job does not make you stand out.
Rotosect
Banned deucer.
Ice STAB didn't lose its niche at all.
You can count the common OU fairies on one hand, and all of them do a lousy job at countering dragons since they're slow and have bad physical bulk for the most part. Avalugg counters physically-based dragons far better than any fairy.
Dazzling Gleam, the only common coverage move for non-fairies, is also very uncommon.
Also you don't use ice moves just for dragons, since it hits 3 other common types for SE damage and has overall good neutral coverage.
I'm not sure why you keep using the "if Avalugg comes on the wrong attack it loses" argument when the same is true for every single wall or tank out there. The truth is that thanks to the ever-increasing power creep the game is heavily biased towards offense than defense and with the right moveset and prediction there is nothing in the game that can't be 2HKO'd at the very least.
Avalugg has proven to have the raw physical bulk (no, type doesn't matter more than stats, else Lucario and Klefki would be great walls) and the tools to get the job done, being able to surive even extremely powerful physical attacks, the rest is up to the player's skill.
You can count the common OU fairies on one hand, and all of them do a lousy job at countering dragons since they're slow and have bad physical bulk for the most part. Avalugg counters physically-based dragons far better than any fairy.
Dazzling Gleam, the only common coverage move for non-fairies, is also very uncommon.
Also you don't use ice moves just for dragons, since it hits 3 other common types for SE damage and has overall good neutral coverage.
I'm not sure why you keep using the "if Avalugg comes on the wrong attack it loses" argument when the same is true for every single wall or tank out there. The truth is that thanks to the ever-increasing power creep the game is heavily biased towards offense than defense and with the right moveset and prediction there is nothing in the game that can't be 2HKO'd at the very least.
Avalugg has proven to have the raw physical bulk (no, type doesn't matter more than stats, else Lucario and Klefki would be great walls) and the tools to get the job done, being able to surive even extremely powerful physical attacks, the rest is up to the player's skill.
Ice is a whole lot better as a coverage typing than a STAB typing. Being resisted by water really hammers its neutral coverage. Before someone shout out Mamoswine I would like to tell you that Mamoswine also got STAB on Earth type.
Concerning dragons, what I mean was not really how fairies compete with ice, but that fairies largely cuts the usage of dragons. So the past niche of checking dragons are not so useful now.
And I am never saying anything about Avalugg comes in on wrong attack, or else I am using fire blast and flash cannons as example. CC and the like of Flare Blitz and Stone Edge are the RIGHT attack that you should come in, because, to begin with, taking such things is something that a tank is supposed to do, one is not even a viable physical tank if it does not manage to take a couple of CC and EQ, and also outrage in the case of previous generations. There is a reason why CC is used as a benchmark to determine one's physical defensive capability.
Concerning dragons, what I mean was not really how fairies compete with ice, but that fairies largely cuts the usage of dragons. So the past niche of checking dragons are not so useful now.
And I am never saying anything about Avalugg comes in on wrong attack, or else I am using fire blast and flash cannons as example. CC and the like of Flare Blitz and Stone Edge are the RIGHT attack that you should come in, because, to begin with, taking such things is something that a tank is supposed to do, one is not even a viable physical tank if it does not manage to take a couple of CC and EQ, and also outrage in the case of previous generations. There is a reason why CC is used as a benchmark to determine one's physical defensive capability.
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Since... when? That's the first time I've heard CC is used as a "benchmark." For that matter, taking a super effective hit isn't the benchmark we should be looking at; neutral hits are better benchmarks. Of course you're not going to have a good physical wall if they can't take something that will annihilate them because of typing. In that case we might as well put Forretress in UU because it can't take a Flare Blitz safely! It's biased against the Pokemon. If the Pokemon's good, they can take neutral hits with plenty to spare; SE hits should only be an afterthought since those the attacks you want to avoid.
In other news, 252+ Avalugg takes a maximum of 29% from Linoone's +4 Extremespeed. ...Don't ask why someone thought it was a good idea to run Linoone in OU.
You say that, but I have yet to see anyone take mine out with ease. All he needs is one turn. Switch in on physical, recover next turn as they rocky helmet themselves. After that you choose to avalanche, toxic, roar, curse, whatever you are running. I am speaking from experience, not theorycrafting. The only things that do kill him are some Megas and pokes that ALREADY set up on you.
I hate how easily he is shutdown by mixed attackers like infernape and lucario as well as mixed air balloon aegislash
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Fine, lets do the maths.
Defensive products of some common physical wall in the meta (B+ or above, B+ is just for Skarmory though)
Avalugg: 202122 (recover)
Skarmory: 138944 (roost)
Mandibuzz: 143736 (roost)
Ferrothorn: 139744 (leech seed)
Rotom-W(physically defensive): 104576 (can burn)
Glisor: 129210 (252/184+), 135582(252/252+) (toxic heal)
Let's also include some bulky offensive pokemon, because they can also do some tank jobs in often manner:
Conkeldurr: 79552 (4/0), 93564(252/0) (drain punch)
Donphan(no one know how this thing make OU): 105984 (252/0)
Azumarill: 79184 (252/0)
Aegislash-shield: 87696(0/0, I don't know who runs it though), 108864(252/0) (King's Shield)
Tyranitar: 103424(252/0)
Scizor: 81184(252/0)
Landorus-T(intimidate, number*1.5 in most cases): 82512(252/0) 69120(4/0)
Now, Let's first take a look on the high BP common move on the physical side.
Flare Blitz, Close Combat, Brave Bird(or Aerilate return), Earthquake, Stone Edge, (Outrage is useless now), Knock off.
Cases when Avalugg tanks better:
120 Flare Blitz(4): Skamory, Ferrothorn, Scizor, Aegislash-shield (King's Shield)
120 Close Combat(3): Ferrothorn, Tyranitar, Scizor
120 Brave Bird(note that it is bind with either Flare Blitz, non-STAB CC, or non-STAB EQ for coverage)(8): Mandibuzz, Ferrothorn, Glisor, Conkeldurr, Donphan, Azumarill, Scizor, Landorus
100 Earthquake(there exists bunch of immunities though, often used with SE)(7): Ferrothorn, Conkeldurr, Donphan, Azumarill, Aegislash, Tyranitar, Scizor
100 Stone Edge(4): Mandibuzz, Rotom, Azumarill, Scizor
97.5 Knock off(8): Skamory, Ferrothorn, Rotom-W, Glisor(don't suffer from losing item), Conkeldurr (inferior if SR damage is taken into account), Azumarill, Aegislash (possibility of King's shield screw except for Bisharp), Scizor, Landorus-T
So, among the 6 moves, Avalugg is almost outright inferior to the meta in the moves it is weak to, which is expected so I am not saying other things. But even for the moves it takes neutrally, its performance is not as shiny as one may think. In fact, if we consider the other moves of BB users, and the boardly existing earth immunity, its defensive niche is really small even with its gigantic bulk.
How about the moves outside that? Well, we have to know that outside these moves (and a few really uncommon things), the BP is just much lower, in which case a pure wall like this is, well, not particularly meaningful. One should rather pick up something with better offensive presence or better utlity, and Avalugg outright sucks in latter and is just about average for the former(again, keep in mind it does not have STAB on EQ).
Oh, have I said that Avalugg has next to no resistances? In case one resists any typing besides ice, 101061 physical defensive product is needed to out perform Avalugg in those scenario. I have to be honest that this is not necessarily a level to be easily achieved without a rather heavy level of defensive investment, but given full investments, 70/90 BST is about the level.
And this is while I am completely neglecting the SR issue......
Typing is indeed manageable in many scenario, but in the case when you compare the top typing (one of the requirement for OU materials) with arguably the worst of all (and don't know how one can be worse), than the margin is probably too large to catch up.
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95/90?
More like 95/67
Also avalugg missed the godly Rock type to get the worst type ever
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