XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)

[BlazingToads64]

Deo-S is still doing what his job is as a suicide spiker, but is outclassed by bulkier spikers such as Ferrothorn, so it should stay in OU

Lucarionite is broken, it gives Lucario a better ability and better stats, making it have a BP 80 Bullet Punch and a BP 240 Close Combat, So he's definitely going up.

Genesect is most likely to go up tiers with Shift Gear raising his speed +2 and attack by +1 making his U-Turn very effective, and He also learns an incredibly diverse movepool, attacks such as all the elemental beams, Explosion, Blaze Kick, Iron Head and much more.

 

[Soul Fly]

Genesect does checks HO team in a lot of ways, however, it DOES NOT check bulkier teams, and is just a joke to stall team.

It is very important to know that Genesect has zero wall breaking potential, horrible STAB, no high BP moves, unreliable ability, cannot hold choice spec

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Genesect Blaze Kick vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 248-294 (74.2 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hopefully this should prove the thing.

What is this post trying to do? What is that calc supposed to prove....

By this analogy
--
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 223+ Def Skarmory: 272-324 (81.4 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Talonflame is a shit pokemon with zero wallbreaking potential

 

[RotomPoison]

Deo-S is still doing what his job is as a suicide spiker, but is outclassed by bulkier spikers such as Ferrothorn, so it should stay in OU

Lucarionite is broken, it gives Lucario a better ability and better stats, making it have a BP 80 Bullet Punch and a BP 240 Close Combat, So he's definitely going up.

Genesect is most likely to go up tiers with Shift Gear raising his speed +2 and attack by +1 making his U-Turn very effective, and He also learns an incredibly diverse movepool, attacks such as all the elemental beams, Explosion, Blaze Kick, Iron Head and much more.

There are so many things wrong with this. Deoxys-S IS MORE THEN A HAZARD LEAD. Also, Shift Gear + U-turn. What.

 

[BlazingToads64]

There are so many things wrong with this. Deoxys-S IS MORE THEN A HAZARD LEAD. Also, Shift Gear + U-turn. What.

I do understand that Deoxys-S is more than a hazard lead, but his main use is a suicide hazard setter. Shift Gear raises Genesects speed so he can use a fast U-Turn

 

[Ryuuki]

I do understand that Deoxys-S is more than a hazard lead, but his main use is a suicide hazard setter. Shift Gear raises Genesects speed so he can use a fast U-Turn

I don't even... If you want a fast U-turn use Choice Scarf, wasting a +1 (+2 if you're good or know what you're doing) just so you can spam U-turn is just horrible wrong. Use it too sweep, it's not that hard once Heatran is gone.

 

[Albacore]

I do understand that Deoxys-S is more than a hazard lead, but his main use is a suicide hazard setter. Shift Gear raises Genesects speed so he can use a fast U-Turn

From the posts I've seen, I'm pretty sure his main use is as a LO attacker.
Also, Shift Gear+U-Turn is a niche combo to surprise the opponent so that Genesect can serve a dual purpose at best. (And just plain stupid at worst)

 

[BlazingToads64]

I don't even... If you want a fast U-turn use Choice Scarf, wasting a +1 (+2 if you're good or know what you're doing) just so you can spam U-turn is just horrible wrong. Use it too sweep, it's not that hard once Heatran is gone.

Using Shift Gear doesn't result in the harmful side effect of making you stay to one move, Plus it gives you a plus one attack


Also Gene has the defenses to pull a stat boosting turn

 

[Albacore]

Using Shift Gear doesn't result in the harmful side effect of making you stay to one move, Plus it gives you a plus one attack

Staying in one move isn't harmful if said move is U-Turn. That's all ever Scarf Genesect ever does. It only uses a special attack when it absolutely knows that it can take care of a significant portion of the opposing team

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

Genesect does checks HO team in a lot of ways, however, it DOES NOT check bulkier teams, and is just a joke to stall team.

The Scarf set is a joke against stall teams and it isn't a reliable Pokemon to deal with it. However, the enormous information asymmetry that an EBelt user can maintain throughout the course of the match against stall (and other teams to a lesser extent) is probably a good argument against it ban. Its unpredictability and scarcity of viable hard counters (Heatran and to a lesser extent Conkeldurr) are what makes it so dangerous. Similarly, Keldeo can also maintain its EBelt bluff quite easily too, but it has fewer rewarding opportunities where it can switch its moves, due to the nature of its STABs and HPs it can viability run. A relatively healthy Celebi, Lati@s, and Jellicent really doesn't mind if a non-LO Keldeo switches to its super-effective Hidden Power against them (and being hit by a Hidden Power at least narrow down the identity of its Hidden Power). They can check Keldeo in many situations, regardless of whether it has EBelt or whether there is no information on the identity of its HP move.

I am now slightly pro-ban due to its unpredictability argument as three (or four) different sets are viable (Scarf [concerning the Scarf set, the EVs really do not matter, but whether it is using an additional Special coverage move or Iron Head as its fourth move], EBelt, and Band), although I do not want Genesect immediately banned.

It is very important to know that Genesect has zero wall breaking potential, horrible STAB, no high BP moves, unreliable ability, cannot hold choice spec

Genesect does have wall-breaking potential. It is the called the Expert Belt set. It does not rely on STABs or items, but rather its ability and coverage, and most importantly, deception and information asymmetry.

 

[BlazingToads64]

Staying in one move isn't harmful if said move is U-Turn. That's all ever Scarf Genesect ever does. It only uses a special attack when it absolutely knows that it can take care of a significant portion of the opposing team

But it helps if you want to use other attacks first to weaken your opponent and then use the U-Turn to gain momentum.

 

[Serrak]

Another fact that people misses about genesect is that it does not have that much switch in oppotunity, neutral SR hurts, and its undefensive stats are medicro at best. Steels are also a lot easier to be dealt with in this generation, being hit neutrally in a whole lot more manner after so many dragons are gone and replaced by the now unresisted ghost and dark.

Also, I think we are kinda skipping the positive impact of Genesect in the meta. It is not like those powerful sweepers, genesect with its unique present shapes the meta with more than just sheer power, and the later is what it was never known for regardless.

While I am sorry that I have yet to play in the suspect test and have to do some theorymoning(and there are some time before we can see the January stats), one thing I can immediately realise is that the leading and revenge killing of Genesect is what effectively checks most scarf users below 100 speed(Landorus-T) and many non-scarf users above that(Greninjar, Terroskion). It also forces scarf users with above 100 speed to run timid/jolly nature. It just in a lot of ways keeping effectively keeps HO teams in checks, which have not really lost that much viablity as compared to Gen V. This, should be considered healthy to the meta for anyone who do not particular miss Gen V.

On the other hand, the massive prevalence of Genesect also helps defensive pokemon quite a bit, as they can easily pick up a protect which really disturbs choice-locked Genesects, the unSTABed moves from Genesect also have a hard time wall breaking even with possible SE, which encourages the usage of more defensive pokemon. And unlike Gen V, defensive pokemons are much usable now with the insane wall breakers in the form of Rain Hydro Pump and Sun Fire Blast gone(405BP with STAB,weather and choice item stacked), which were arguably better than even Lucario in our discussion.

Genesect not having an easy time switching in is almost completely irrelevant, since it's usually either paired with voltturn partners or revenge killing. Furthermore, it's debatable that what you call positive isn't actually negative. Generally, a healthier metagame is one that is more diverse, with more strategies being viable. How is something that can either outclass or beat most ( Rotom-W can stand on it's own with hydro pump and Trickscarf, along with a few others) scarfers under base 100 helping make the metagame more diverse? It is true that speed boosters were at least somewhat overcentralizing last generation, but they've been reduced in viability this generation by bulkier Mega-Evos, assault vest (for special attackers) and stronger/more common/better offensively typed priority.

Many defensive things (in singles at least) don't have room for protect/won't see much usage on it other than against Genesect (which would be a pretty good definition of overcentralizing). Gliscor has always had protect as a staple, but most defensive pokes will want an attack (as to not be taunt bait), a phasing/psuedo phasing move (to prevent from being setup bait) and a healing move (to reliably keep health), and many will want either an entry hazard or coverage move. Added on to that, protect is easy setup fodder for any boosting sweeper. It can show you what a banded D-nite locks itself into, or give lum berry D-nite a free dragon dance. There's also the fact that Genesect is not a wallbreaker, it's a revenge killer/late game cleaner (in the case of the scarf set). If it doesn't think it can revenge you, it either won't come in, or it'll U-Turn into an actual wallbreaker.

Even if Genesect is a balancing force like you said, the fact that one poke balances out entire playstyles is a good sign it's overcentralizing.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 223+ Def Skarmory: 272-324 (81.4 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Talonflame is a shit pokemon with zero wallbreaking potential

The Blaze Kick calculation shows how Genesect's Band set fails against dedicated physical walls under the most advantageous conditions: super-effectiveness, a boosting item/Shift Gear boost, and a Download boost. It however can hax its way against dedicated physical walls that do not resist Iron Head, but relying on Iron Head as neutral coverage against walls that may possess Rocky Helmet is unreliable. Also, the band set will reveal its band by its damage output.


That can also be applicable to a hypothetical Specs set, but Bug Buzz doesn't provide much coverage to break through dedicated special walls/tanks.

 

[Serrak]

So I may have missed a few posts, but are people being sarcastic about Genesect not being able to wallbreak because it couldn't one shot one of the best physically defensive walls in the game? If not, by that definition, without stealth rocks the only real wallbreakers have mold breaker, because literally no-one else can one shot Skarm through Sturdy. Regardless of that, against any decently offensive team it's going to be difficult for Skarm to roost back up, and impossible to do it's job with that much health missing. For all intents and purposes, the wall is broken, whether or not Genesect delivered the finishing blow.

P.S: even without the attack boost, there's a chance to 2HKO after leftovers without rocks. Even assuming low damage rolls, skarm will be forced to either switch out without about half of it's health, or roost stall while gambling on a miss before a burn (both have the same chance)

 

[DaRkRaii]

Well, I have experience with Genesect and Lucario a lot, so I'll primarily give my thoughts on those two. I don't have time right now to ladder and get the needed reqs for suspect testing this test, but I'll do it next test.

Lucario -> Mega Luke's obscene attacking stats, coupled with high Base 112 speed is amazing. This is all Lucario ever asked for. He never had the speed to become a volatile sweeper off the bat, and would need team support to get rid of usually faster Pokemon, and proper Hazard support, so his LO Extremespeed would finish certain Pokes off. Mega Luke's power stems from not only his amazing stats, but his ability, Adaptability, which basically makes all his STAB moves twice as powerful, as opposed to just 1.5 off basic STAB. So, instead of a 180 BP Close Combat from Terrakion, you're facing a 240 BP CC from a Pokemon with far better coverage, faster, and a higher attacking stat, and we know how powerful CB Terrakion was last generation. It's far too easy to net kills with Lucario because of both its amazing movepool and unpredictability. The prevalence of both the NP set and SD set give that sense of unpredictability which allows you to play mind games with your opponent. The NP set has far less counters, whereas the SD set will hit with higher BP (Access to Close Combat), but both are very volatile in what they do. He does have certain checks and counters, but so do a lot of Pokemon, and if you have such a dangerous sweeper like Lucario on your team, you're most likely prepared to get rid of those checks/counters before you bring in Luke to wreak havoc.

Verdict: BAN

Genesect -> Genesect still does what it does best; gain momentum. U-Turn is the crux of almost every Genesect set, and that's not debatable. While sets like EB and Shift Gear have seen some use, you'd be reluctant to say that the vast majority still, and will continue to use the Scarf set, simply because of its ability to gain momentum. However, the problem I've seen with genesect on the anti-ban side, is the fact that it's whittled down very easily by constant switch-in's. While Stealth Rocks are easier to get off the field now due to both Rapid Spin and Defog, it isn't instantaneous, and your team will likely feel the effects of the hazards until you find a proper time to bring in your hazard remover (if you even have one at that). Genesect is constantly switching in and out in order to gain momentum and will feel the effects of the hazards almost certainly. Genesect also lost key resistances in Ghost and Dark this generation, which again, contributes to how easy it is to whittle down as opposed to last generation, where it could simply resist those type of attacks. The prevalence of Heatran is a bane for Genesect, as Gene is COMPLETELY WALLED by Heatran. Heatran is the epitome of counters to Genesect, bar none. Easily forcing it out with the fear of a Fire STAB move coming its way. There is also the common argument that CB Talonflame is amazing against Genesect, and it is. BB will more likely than not, OHKO, especially after rocks are up and Genesect has switched in once. Even amongst all this, Genesect does still thrive, as it is easy to slap on more offensively oriented teams, and it will continue to thrive. However, it is nowhere near as threatening as last generation as it has enough counters/checks, and new mechanics to detract it from constantly switching in, that can keep it OU.

Verdict: Don't Ban

Again, my Deo-S knowledge is mediocre at best. I know it is niche in what it does; either being a good hazard setter or a very good wall breaker, but the prevalence of powerful priority and more bulk this gen seems to mitigate both those niches.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

So I may have missed a few posts, but are people being sarcastic about Genesect not being able to wallbreak because it couldn't one shot one of the best physically defensive walls in the game? If not, by that definition, without stealth rocks the only real wallbreakers have mold breaker, because literally no-one else can one shot Skarm through Sturdy. Regardless of that, against any decently offensive team it's going to be difficult for Skarm to roost back up, and impossible to do it's job with that much health missing. For all intents and purposes, the wall is broken, whether or not Genesect delivered the finishing blow.

P.S: even without the attack boost, there's a chance to 2HKO after leftovers without rocks. Even assuming low damage rolls, skarm will be forced to either switch out without about half of it's health, or roost stall while gambling on a miss before a burn (both have the same chance)

The Teravolt/Mold Breaker users, as far as my as my knowledge is concerned, do not have a move that can KO Skarmory without a crit.
The Blaze Kick calc showed highly advantageous conditions for Genesect to act as a wall breaker. (Hell, it is probably better for a physical set to run Flamethrower to specifically deal with Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Scizor since it also bypasses Rocky Helmet; the specific match-up doesn't matter.) A stall player may switch into something with decent bulk that resists Blaze Kick and they often have a fire resistance on their team since the stall player has information that Genesect is banded.

 

[Photofluid]

What is this post trying to do? What is that calc supposed to prove....

By this analogy
--
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 223+ Def Skarmory: 272-324 (81.4 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Talonflame is a shit pokemon with zero wallbreaking potential

C'mon, stop screwing me, since when was Talonflame a wall breaker = =?

With a download boost, STAB isn't really needed. Plus, Genesect getting a STAB U-Turn helps it immensely in putting other Pokemon into a checkmate position and grabbing momentum.

Momentum, a term that has almost never been meaningful for stall teams = =, stall teams are so passive to consider about that.

Iron head is pretty common on Genesect too. The only thing that can take neutral special hits, U-Turn and iron head is heatran, anything else loses a large chunk of health. A download boosted STAB U-Turn is by no means passive damage,
It more often than not damages the Pokemon that takes the U-Turn enough to be OHKOed by the next Pokemon that comes in. That seemingly passive damage can be important in several situations.

You don't handle the download on the two side with the same way, if it is on the phyiscal side you are fine as long you don't get hit by SE(of cuz no bug weakness please), if it is on the special side, just overcome it with sheer bulkiness can be a solution.

Of course Gensect still has enough switch in opportunities. 75/95/95 defenses combined with a load of resistances even excluding ghost and dark is still pretty good. I mean, Scarf Genesect was one of the top Pokemon in Ubers last gen. If it was able to find switch in opportunities there, it's pretty obvious that it has few problems switching in the current meta.

If you actually consider that Genesect tends to be useless(like many scarf mon) in the late game, it has to switch in multiple times earlier to compensate.

I'm not sure what positive aspect you're talking about. Gensect can be a powerful sweeper with the right set. It's scarf sets turn turn ice beam, flamethrower and U-Turn weak Pokemon into free momentum. It restricts teambuilding to not include too many of the aforementioned Pokemon in your team.

Choice-locked poke are never good sweepers. Back in Gen V it was all those outrages and rain hydro pumps that powers through things EVEN IF IT IS RESISTED. And without a scarf Genesect is losing its major niche as a quick pivot and revenge killer

Aside from the fact that the only prevalent protect users in OU are Sylveon, Gliscor and Chansey/blissey, there's also a chance this happens-

"Pokemon X used protect!"

"Genesect used Shift Gear/rock polish"

Derp....

Well, stall teams use protect a lot more often, especially when one is running things like toxic/WoW/leech seed, and one extra turn of leftover more than often proof itself invaluable, it can also be used scout move sets...... the OU stats doesn't necessarily show that because stall is not a common play style at all...... not only because full stall is slightly inferior to the meta but that most people don't want 50 turn games, which is already considered short for stall players......

Also, +1 is nowhere threatening to stall teams when +2 are the one they are supposed to wall, and who cares about the speed when I am slower anyway? It should also be noted that, while I was not there back in Gen V, I can safely claim that the rock polish set is only powerful because the meta was so frail back at those days, and viable walls tend to be very specialized which leaves holes else where.

The Scarf set is a joke against stall teams and it isn't a reliable Pokemon to deal with it. However, the enormous information asymmetry that an EBelt user can maintain throughout the course of the match against stall (and other teams to a lesser extent) is probably a good argument against it ban. Its unpredictability and scarcity of viable hard counters (Heatran and to a lesser extent Conkeldurr) are what makes it so dangerous. Similarly, Keldeo can also maintain its EBelt bluff quite easily too, but it has fewer rewarding opportunities where it can switch its moves, due to the nature of its STABs and HPs it can viability run. A relatively healthy Celebi, Lati@s, and Jellicent really doesn't mind if a non-LO Keldeo switches to its super-effective Hidden Power against them (and being hit by a Hidden Power at least narrow down the identity of its Hidden Power). They can check Keldeo in many situations, regardless of whether it has EBelt or whether there is no information on the identity of its HP move.

I am now slightly pro-ban due to its unpredictability argument as three (or four) different sets are viable (Scarf [concerning the Scarf set, the EVs really do not matter, but whether it is using an additional Special coverage move or Iron Head as its fourth move], EBelt, and Band), although I do not want Genesect immediately banned.

Genesect does have wall-breaking potential. It is the called the Expert Belt set. It does not rely on STABs or items, but rather its ability and coverage, and most importantly, deception and information asymmetry.

I don't actually think the expert belt is so much an issue, ever since Gen V stalling is becoming a very anti-meta play style as you may know. Information management is always an important topic for stall players due to the necessity to do prolonged decision making, which is less so for offensive teams as you may not even have a chance to see all their moves anyway.

In fact, unless the Genesect is specifically built to screw stall teams(yeah, one certainly can build something like that, I may just pick up Kyu-B though), the item choice can be rather obvious at stage of team preview. And at the early stage of game, at least for me, I would spend quite some time on scouting the enemy. Plus, expert belt has always been the kind of surprising factor ever since its introduction, if it is shown on the stats, we know how to do the analysis.

But of course, most importantly 90% of stall teams will throw in specially defensive Heatran regardless, yup, stalling is pretty dull this generation as Megasaur/Heatran is basically everywhere.





Another note, I have tested out the Choice Band set a bit, perhaps I was not using it correctly, but stacking physical attacks do not seem powerful at all(that coverage), and the download boost is so unreliable.

One more side note, if iron head is spammed against dedicate rock helmet users, you may actually be the one to die first, really, one turn of healing is enough.

 

[Shiruba]

I wouldn't underestimate the sheer value of a U-Turn. Sure, you switch your Pokemon to avoid getting possibly smashed by Genesect in whichever way is applicable at the time... Then the Genesect user switches out to their setup sweeper of choice, should the conditions be right [normally that the sent-in Pokemon can't do much to the one setting up], and can then sweep the rest of the team from there. Just looking from S and A in the viability thread, a lot of these are setup sweepers.

Hide

Mega Lucario
Swords Dance Aegislash
Mega Pinsir
Dragon Dance Mega Charizard X

Swords Dance Garchomp
Swords Dance Mega Garchomp [it runs that, right?]
Manaphy [particularly notable due to being a great switchin to Heatran if it lacks Roar, which in itself is a common Genesect switchin]
Swords Dance Talonflame

Swords Dance Excadrill [generally only if sand up/remaining team is slow]
BellyJet Azumarill
Swords Dance Mega Mawile
Dragon Dance MegaTar
Swords Dance Scizor
Swords Dance MegaZor
Dragon Dance Dragonite
Swords Dance Terrakion
Swords Dance Bisharp
Dragon Dance Gyarados
Dragon Dance MegaDos

Calm Mind Clefable

And those're just the ones from S to A-. I think that it's important to keep in mind the sheer utility of an unmatched U-Turner like Genesect. While this can obviously apply to most U-Turners/Volt Switchers, it's important to remember how excellent of a move this is in general, as well as the amount of switches Genesect causes due to its excellent coverage and power.

 

[Ajwf]

Momentum, a term that has almost never been meaningful for stall teams = =, stall teams are so passive to consider about that.


Well, stall teams use protect a lot more often, especially when one is running things like toxic/WoW/leech seed, and one extra turn of leftover more than often proof itself invaluable, it can also be used scout move sets...... the OU stats doesn't necessarily show that because stall is not a common play style at all...... not only because full stall is slightly inferior to the meta but that most people don't want 50 turn games, which is already considered short for stall players......

Also, +1 is nowhere threatening to stall teams when +2 are the one they are supposed to wall, and who cares about the speed when I am slower anyway? It should also be noted that, while I was not there back in Gen V, I can safely claim that the rock polish set is only powerful because the meta was so frail back at those days, and viable walls tend to be very specialized which leaves holes else where.

In fact, unless the Genesect is specifically built to screw stall teams(yeah, one certainly can build something like that, I may just pick up Kyu-B though), the item choice can be rather obvious at stage of team preview. And at the early stage of game, at least for me, I would spend quite some time on scouting the enemy. Plus, expert belt has always been the kind of surprising factor ever since its introduction, if it is shown on the stats, we know how to do the analysis.

But of course, most importantly 90% of stall teams will throw in specially defensive Heatran regardless, yup, stalling is pretty dull this generation as Megasaur/Heatran is basically everywhere.

What is this, Misconception About Stall day? First off, Stall understands the word momentum, as does every other team. Do you think I can just ignore myself being forced to switch every turn? I mean sure, if I'm in on AV slowbro and rotom-w is out, I can decide to take the hit and force him to lose out immediately on his most immediate check to me. But something like Lando-t coming in to heatran forces me back. If it just Uturns again, I'm still retreating. And if I risk it, I risk losing my wall. Au Contraire, stall teams feel momentum more than any other team because they have to struggle to find ways to beat back the opponent and stop them from just shitting all over stall with the constant forcing switches. At that point, it requires the player to understand when he is able to risk the uturn/volt switch and go for an important prediction/set hazards. Hopefully by then stall doesn't take so much damage from SR that the effects are irreversible. So yeah, while stall can 'shrug off' genesect's uturns damage, we have to worry about what comes in and then they just start wearing stall down over hazards.

+1 Special Genesect is threatening to my skarmory. +1 physical gene (especially those red ones) scare my chansey out. +1 is a dangerous boost to disregard. Increases the punishment for mistakes, makes you more likely to conform and just go to your counter (generally heatran, yes). I have the calcs down in my head, and can easily determine the set from just one uturn on heatran, but even after that, what's to say a band set doesn't carry Tbolt/Flamethrower for skarmory/ferrothorn? I've run into a few of them where I've had to play cautious after having heatran take care of mega lucario (special unboosted Aura Sphere did 70 odd percent, taking me to a measely 15% health. Boarderline dead from a CB genesect's uturn (4x resist, remember that)). Going into skarm then nearly crushed me as he saw it was my only option. An easy flame thrower and I was nearly dead. Had it been boosted, I would've easily lost skarm.

Genesect is a multi-versatile weapon that I've even seen ON stall teams. It doesn't have to be built to screw stall, it just has to keep stall from DOING anything, by forcing me out with a huge array of coverage. I can generally trust two pokemon on my team to take band genesect (skarm, heatran), and I generally have to wait for the scarf to lock it before I can act if I don't have heatran to go into.

Although you call the VenuTran boring, remember that it is literally the single most stable core stall has to lean on this generation. It takes more in the meta than any other core can, so it gives room for originality outside of that 2 poke core. And one of the huge reasons I started using it was that Heatran took care of Genesect when it came back to OU. Calling the VenuTran core boring is ignoring how boring it is to play against the RotomWGenesect core.

 

[Serrak]

The Teravolt/Mold Breaker users, as far as my as my knowledge is concerned, do not have a move that can KO Skarmory without a crit.
The Blaze Kick calc showed highly advantageous conditions for Genesect to act as a wall breaker. (Hell, it is probably better for a physical set to run Flamethrower to specifically deal with Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Scizor since it also bypasses Rocky Helmet; the specific match-up doesn't matter.) A stall player may switch into something with decent bulk that resists Blaze Kick and they often have a fire resistance on their team since the stall player has information that Genesect is banded.

I myself don't consider Genesect a wallbreaker, but the calc seemed to show otherwise. You can switch out to Heatran after taking the first Blaze Kick, it doesn't matter. Genesect has weakened the wall, to the point that the sweepers it's supposed to counter can often break it down. And scouting the damage works both ways. Now the Genesect player knows the skarm is physically defensive, and that from that range it's a sitting duck against mixed sweepers carrying fire or electric coverage (for an example that was somewhat popular last gen, Mixmence).

Stall teams are likely to have redundant checks and counters to sweepers, but the next counter is likely to take a ton of damage in the process (setting Genesect in a good position to revenge kill it, or maul the switch in with a banded U-Turn). Skarm also gets usage on more balanced teams, who aren't likely to have redundant counters to sweepers. In this instance, not only has Genesect broken the wall, but can set up a sweeper that wins the match.

My point about Mold Breaker was that very few things can give any chance to 2HKO physically defensive Skarm with a physical attack (Download boosted or not in Genesect's case). If it were a guarenteed 3HKO, it would be different. Then Skarm could switch in and take one, then take a second and roost off the damage, walling it. Since Skarm can't reliably do this, calling Genesect a wallbreaker must have at least some merit.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

AJ.

Genesect is the quintessential tactical Pokemon that can suit multiple playing styles. It is not "broken", and it really don't "counter" many Pokemon in the strict sense of the word, but its movepool and enough unpredictability in its viable movesets, even if its item is known, to pose a credible threat to most Pokemon.

Genesect's efficacy highly dependent on the context -- the current team composition of its user and opponent's, Genesect's remaining health, and residual damage. A well played prediction can "halt" Genesect's momentum. Even allowing a Pokemon to die on a predicted U-Turn may be the best option. Alternatively, a risk-averse player may decide to reserve it to ensure its efficacy as a revenge killer in the middle-late game by keeping it safe from hazard damage or other forms or residual damage. but this forfeits any potential momentum it can generate or kills on high-value targets. There is no prescribed way to play against a Genesect or use a Genesect; that's why it is the epitome of a tactical Pokemon. Certainly, spamming U-Turn is not the prescribed way to play it. Genesect is not really simple to use and any argue that is generates "free momentum" in most cases in this meta is rather risible.

You should also know that Rocky Helmet gives you a passive way of playing mind games with Genesect's user and deters liberal U-Turn use. Certainly Genesect's user would want to protect it from residual damage. Also Stall has superior means and tactics to control hazards.

I could surmise why you do not like Genesect. Here is the an excerpt from the Wikipedia entry of Anatoly Karpov:

Karpov's "boa constrictor" playing style is solidly positional,[20] taking no risks but reacting mercilessly to any tiny errors made by his opponents... Karpov himself describes his style as follows:

Let us say the game may be continued in two ways: one of them is a beautiful tactical blow that gives rise to variations that don't yield to precise calculation; the other is clear positional pressure that leads to an endgame with microscopic chances of victory.... I would choose the latter without thinking twice. If the opponent offers keen play I don't object; but in such cases I get less satisfaction, even if I win, than from a game conducted according to all the rules of strategy with its ruthless logic.

Genesect forces you to play a tactical game when it is out, regardless of how you construct a stall team before the match. It can easily generate that "beautiful tactical blow" by forcing a Pokemon exchange. Stall teams generally do not like tactical exchanges because stall thrives on the positional pressure generated by its cores to resist offensive assaults. A tactical offensive player could then exploit whatever hole that has been punched (such as loss of a resistance/immunity, hazard removal, cleric support, special sponge) by that beautiful tactical blow. After the blow has been dealt, the game will be simplified, although not necessarily in the favor of the Genesect user.

If Pokemon had a 200 turn mandatory draw rule. You would probably have a lot of satisfaction from the draws due to the turn limit.

 

[Sarcasm.]

I just think it's annoying to have to include Mega Lucario on all of my teams seeing as it's it's own best counter/revenge killer.
With Steel not resisting Dark anymore it can also use the massive move pool much more effectively as a special attacker.

Adaptability gives it priority with double STAB. Thats just nothing to bitch about, it's the definition of overpowered.
Yeah I'm all for banning mega Lucario.

As for Genesect, it hasn't really changed much since gen 5, has it? Iron Head knocks out most fairy types 3 hits or less most of the time. Seeing as Steel doesn't resist Ghost and Dark anymore I'd say Genesect is worse this generation than the last, despite the super effective STAB on Fairies. It just dies a lot easier and can't hard switch in to tank anymore. I like it in OU, but it's becoming boring seeing it with mega Lucario on every team.

 

[Photofluid]

What is this, Misconception About Stall day? First off, Stall understands the word momentum, as does every other team. Do you think I can just ignore myself being forced to switch every turn? I mean sure, if I'm in on AV slowbro and rotom-w is out, I can decide to take the hit and force him to lose out immediately on his most immediate check to me. But something like Lando-t coming in to heatran forces me back. If it just Uturns again, I'm still retreating. And if I risk it, I risk losing my wall. Au Contraire, stall teams feel momentum more than any other team because they have to struggle to find ways to beat back the opponent and stop them from just shitting all over stall with the constant forcing switches. At that point, it requires the player to understand when he is able to risk the uturn/volt switch and go for an important prediction/set hazards. Hopefully by then stall doesn't take so much damage from SR that the effects are irreversible. So yeah, while stall can 'shrug off' genesect's uturns damage, we have to worry about what comes in and then they just start wearing stall down over hazards.

+1 Special Genesect is threatening to my skarmory. +1 physical gene (especially those red ones) scare my chansey out. +1 is a dangerous boost to disregard. Increases the punishment for mistakes, makes you more likely to conform and just go to your counter (generally heatran, yes). I have the calcs down in my head, and can easily determine the set from just one uturn on heatran, but even after that, what's to say a band set doesn't carry Tbolt/Flamethrower for skarmory/ferrothorn? I've run into a few of them where I've had to play cautious after having heatran take care of mega lucario (special unboosted Aura Sphere did 70 odd percent, taking me to a measely 15% health. Boarderline dead from a CB genesect's uturn (4x resist, remember that)). Going into skarm then nearly crushed me as he saw it was my only option. An easy flame thrower and I was nearly dead. Had it been boosted, I would've easily lost skarm.

Genesect is a multi-versatile weapon that I've even seen ON stall teams. It doesn't have to be built to screw stall, it just has to keep stall from DOING anything, by forcing me out with a huge array of coverage. I can generally trust two pokemon on my team to take band genesect (skarm, heatran), and I generally have to wait for the scarf to lock it before I can act if I don't have heatran to go into.

Although you call the VenuTran boring, remember that it is literally the single most stable core stall has to lean on this generation. It takes more in the meta than any other core can, so it gives room for originality outside of that 2 poke core. And one of the huge reasons I started using it was that Heatran took care of Genesect when it came back to OU. Calling the VenuTran core boring is ignoring how boring it is to play against the RotomWGenesect core.

I may have been a bit exaggerating about momentum, but seriously I do think you should have more room to play with the momentum when the games tend to be so long.

I think part of the reason we have rather different views is because we don't play the stall game in quite the same way, I take protect whenever I can, which I don't think is all that common. I also take risks, and in the case of Genesect, risk taking pend out to be an effective strategy, as with the play style of Genesect it is more likely than not for you to win the gambit due it being so SE relient, and there are times when the price worths the risk. Of course I am not a particularly strong player and have never managed to hit the ladder. But unless someone tell me how Genesect works drastically different in higher elo(except better prediction), my experiences should count.

Powerful U-turn can be an argument, but those are to be prepared against anyway, Landorus-T, Scizor, etc all have powerful U-turn, and bug is not a difficult type to wall, I honestly treat it as passive damage more than anything.

About the part of Band Genesect, I do think this is something that have more room for discussion, but I still find it a horrible stall breaker by far, especially after the meta have settled a bit and we have more data about the last move slot, and even by now it is something that can be guess just by looking at the team preview.

And concerning VenuTran, yup, I literally hate Venusaur, I can somehow justify the usage of Tran but not for Mega#003. I further hate it because it is so crucial to the play style that I am most used to. I see how you are very avid about stalling and my speech can be insulting in your ear. But c'mon, "boring" is a very subjective term and it is a waste of time for either of us to argue about it.

AJ.

Genesect is the quintessential tactical Pokemon that can suit multiple playing styles. It is not "broken", and it really don't "counter" many Pokemon in the strict sense of the word, but its movepool and enough unpredictability in its viable movesets, even if its item is known, to pose a credible threat to most Pokemon.

Genesect's efficacy highly dependent on the context -- the current team composition of its user and opponent's, Genesect's remaining health, and residual damage. A well played prediction can "halt" Genesect's momentum. Even allowing a Pokemon to die on a predicted U-Turn may be the best option. Alternatively, a risk-averse player may decide to reserve it to ensure its efficacy as a revenge killer in the middle-late game by keeping it safe from hazard damage or other forms or residual damage. but this forfeits any potential momentum it can generate or kills on high-value targets. There is no prescribed way to play against a Genesect; that's why it is the epitome of a tactical Pokemon.

You should also know that Rocky Helmet gives you a passive way of playing mind games with Genesect's user and deters liberal U-Turn use. Certainly Genesect's user would want to protect it from residual damage. Also Stall has superior means and tactics to control hazards.

I could surmise why you do not like Genesect. Here is the an excerpt from the Wikipedia entry of Anatoly Karpov:



Genesect forces you to play a tactical game when it is out, regardless of how you construct a stall team before the match. It can easily generate that "beautiful tactical blow" by forcing a Pokemon exchange. Stall teams generally do not like tactical exchanges because stall thrives on the positional pressure generated by its cores to resist offensive assaults. A tactical offensive player could then exploit whatever hole that has been punched (such as loss of a resistance/immunity, hazard removal, cleric support, special sponge) by that beautiful tactical blow. After the blow has been dealt, the game will be simplified, although not necessarily in the favor of the Genesect user.

If Pokemon had a 200 turn mandatory draw rule. You would probably have a lot of satisfaction from the draws due to the turn limit.

When I am typing the paragraph this post pop out and really draws my interest.

Anyway, there are two things very clear about pokemon as compared to chess. Firstly, we don't have perfect information, most notably unknown movesets. Secondly, decision making occurs simutaneously(though I sometimes "cheat"), this is more or less equivalent to point one, but this boil downs to that you cannot just be a mathematician and have everything calculated.

And gosh, I don't think I have ever manage to hit the 200 turn mark. I thought my record was 18X back when the days I use perma-sand stalling with cosmic power rest.

I wonder how many people talking shit about the suspect test actually have reqs.

#banmegaluke #keepgene #keepdeoS

Beats me

 

[Froakie-Smokie]

Deoxys-Speed is a more of a borderline between O.U. and Uber tier. Although Deoxys-Speed has an unrivaled speed stat (Hence the name, Deoxys-Speed), he doesn't have that much of an offensive or defensive prowess. While Deoxys, in any form, has a decent movepool, it can be easily countered by an offensive player. Even if they do add him as uber, it still will have many disadvantages, since many ubers can learn dark-type attacks like foul play, which can really put a dent in his overall rating. In conclusion, I think Deoxys-Speed should stay in OU.

As for Mega Lucario, its adaptability makes it extremely overpowered. Since its movepool consists of mostly fighting-type attacks, it basically acts as if normally effective moves are super effective. Plus, when Mega Lucario is up against an ice, rock, or steel-type, it kicks up damage to a quadruple bonus, which, in general term, will most likely result as a OHKO. He's just gotta go.

Genesect, although making for a good offensive prowess, lacks in defense and HP. It is also easily beatable due to its awkward typing. With fire as one of the most common types in the game, being able to get a double advantage over Genesect is an extreme disadvantage. I think Genesect should stay in OU.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

When I am typing the paragraph this post pop out and really draws my interest.

Anyway, there are two things very clear about pokemon as compared to chess. Firstly, we don't have perfect information, most notably unknown movesets. Secondly, decision making occurs simutaneously(though I sometimes "cheat"), this is more or less equivalent to point one, but this boil downs to that you cannot just be a mathematician and have everything calculated.

And gosh, I don't think I have ever manage to hit the 200 turn mark. I thought my record was 18X back when the days I use perma-sand stalling with cosmic power rest.

I do believe it is a strong analogy, and there are indeed more game and decision theory considerations (and mind games) involved in Genesect's "beautiful tactical blows" that make it an imperfect chess analogy. Surely, it is hard to argue against the notion that Stall does generate "positional pressure" and the Genesect does generate "beautiful tactical blows" that can relieve that "positional pressure" both in ways the can benefit the Genesect user or even hurt him/her.

It is not core destroyer or stall breaker... it can deliver beautiful tactical blows against stall. (To reiterate)

I am a Genesect fan-girl for that reason. :-)

 

[Mr. SU]

mega lucario has plenty of walls, the physical set is completely walled by gliscor and physically defensive hippowdon (and if you want to get creative) spiritomb, the special set is tanked out by assault vest goodra