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XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)

Discussion in 'OverUsed' started by Aldaron, Jan 26, 2014.

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  1. Ulevo

    Ulevo

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    I've read through a good majority of the arguments for banning/maintaining the three Pokemon being discussed. I don't have an immediate opinion on any of them, even if I might be more inclined in a given direction on some of them in one respect or another. However, I thought it would be important to highlight some key things being talked about that require more clarity.

    I am in agreement that the term broken, and what it applies to, can have some degree of subjectivity. However, I also believe that the consensus of "health" for the metagame suffers this problem to a greater degree of severity. The idea of what a "healthy metagame" is is incredibly subjective, and varies from person to person. It's primarily for this reason why I don't like to align myself with that philosophy. Even if there are some things the majority can agree on, such as avoiding luck promoting strategies or elements, the ideology of a "healthy metagame" is often a matter of perspective, and is very rarely tangible. Trying to use this as an ideal to aim towards, at least in my opinion, doesn't lead to constructive tiering or policy.

    Checks, and specifically counters, are talked about when it pertains to a suspects level of overall strength. I think this is often misrepresented in context however, and people miss the significance. Just because a Pokemon has X number of checks, or X number of counters, doesn't mean that it's subsequently that much easier or harder to handle, or that it is or isn't more deserving of a being a suspect/banned from the tier. At least not directly. There are correlations. What it really means when a Pokemon has X counters or X checks is that it is more or less likely to be appropriately handled by the player with the given options available, either during battle or during the team building process. Options is the important word here. I say options because that's all checks and counters are; more options. They're an extension of the pool of answers available to you. They're usually the most transparent, recognizable, and easily executed, but it doesn't mean they are the only answers available to a problem, or in this case a suspect. Unfortunately people fail to recognize this because it is easier to converse on paper with counters and checks than the detailed specifics of in-game situational strategy and theorycraft.

    This all sounds fairly obvious when considering that many of the Ubers we have aren't allowed in standard play despite having plenty of counters or checks, while Pokemon like Mew, which could be argued as virtually uncounterable, are relegated to UU.

    When a Pokemon is too strong for a given tier, it's because the rewards that are reaped for using that Pokemon are substantially higher than compared to Pokemon that normally reside in that tier. It doesn't matter if that Pokemon has counters or checks, because if the reward for using it is high enough, it will have a toxic effect despite these options against it being available. This is precisely why people become ignorantly wrapped up in arguments about counters and checks, and how that correlates to a Pokemons strength one minute, and then the next minute they will scoff at the propositions of niche counters that are presented to the debate by the opposition. These whishy washy, contradictory, inconsistent opinions happen because people realize intuitively that the reward for using that suspect vastly eclipses the overall reward for using that niche counter to said suspect.

    I've said this once before, but if you were to relegate Kyogre down from Ubers and in to the OU tier, it would immediately present an issue and become suspect worthy, even if it has hard counters and checks that are both OU quality or UU and below quality. The reason for this is that the rewards Kyogre brings to the player using it are so definitively great that you would be foolish to not use it if it were available to you, even if you had a means to deal with enemy Kyogre, and your opponents had ways of dealing with yours through counters and checks.

    Also, this should be very obvious, but overcentralization is a symptom to the problem, not the problem in and of itself.

    Gary2346 emphasizes the point I make, specifically with the text I've bolded. And this is the main inconsistency I see with Deoxys-S and Genesect, and not with Mega Lucario.

    I do not personally have the battle experience to say whether or not Mega Lucario is worthy of being banned or not. However, the arguments for it being banned are compelling (even in their simplicity) because the rewards it gives for using it, both in battle and on paper, seem to largely outweigh the reasons for why you would choose not to use it. At least by comparison to the other two. However, the propositions thus far for Genesect and Deoxys-S do not hold the same weight because they don't address why a player should use them in order to remain competitive if they do not want to risk being at a distinct disadvantage.

    I believe Mega Gengar and Mega Kangaskhan both had this distinct problem. When they were available, it was honestly kind of silly to not build a team with one or the other. I'd like to see some compelling arguments for why Genesect and Deoxys-S fit this bill.
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2014
    asbdsp, XZ2H3000, q p and 7 others like this.
  2. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    I'm well aware that the concept of a good pokemon is more tangible than the idea of a healthy metagame. However, the whole point was that having a good metagame is what we are actually after, and that throwing the word broken around suggests that it is something else. The fact that it is highly subjective is something that had to be cleared up at the start of the post; it is an unfortunate reality. There is no point having objective criteria if they are the wrong criteria.
  3. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    Actually I don't think the bolded part is very fair. Megakahn felt that way simply because it was that absurdly overpowering. However, Mega Gengar was banned and you could build a perfectly fine team without it, and likewise I don't really feel that Mega Lucario falls under the category of "use it or be at a distinct disadvantage" either. Neither does Genesect or Deo-S, so I'm not going to argue for any suspect on that point because it's not a necessary condition of an Uber.

    However, Genesect is completely unparalleled in what it brings to the table. As I said in a previous post, it's unrivaled in its ability to force your opponent into lose-lose situations due to its excellent coverage combined with a fast, powerful U-Turn. There's very little to lose by slapping Genesect onto your team because it's a very low-risk momentum machine. Can you be competitive without it? Of course, but nothing comes close to its ability to wear your opponent down, U-Turning in and out of battle, revenging or cleaning up (depending on its versatile sets).

    Likewise there's nothing to really compare Deoxys-S to either. Haunter said months ago that Deo-S would be suspect based on its support qualities rather than offensive sets, and yet most people here praise the LO revenge killer set much more than the support set (and I agree with them)! Again, you aren't automatically at a disadvantage by not running Deo-S. However, at the same time there's nothing that can do what it does.

    Whether Genesect or Deo-S's unique roles are overpowering enough to warrant a ban is obviously up to your opinion. Personally, I feel Genesect is too much for OU, and I can see the arguments for Deo-S as well (although I'm still not entirely convinced).
    Flareon, T-Bolt and sidakarya like this.
  4. LoDart210

    LoDart210

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    Seems like the discussion is running around in circles here considering our suspects.

    Banning lucarionite seems to be a general consensus. 145/140/112 attacking stats, plethora of priority and boosting moves that pass vindictive judgement over the majority of the tier. No doubt about it, lucario has finally achieved the legendary combat potential to rival it's fame within the franchise.

    As for genesect, the crux of the argument is basically how powerful is its u turn?

    Granted, I understand that its coverage is also fantastic but without u turn its suddenly very manageable, so I believe coverage is not so much the issue as how powerful its u turn is, and how easy and powerful a escape button it is.

    However this starts to hint at ugly and silly solutions like banning u turn on genesect, or banning scarf and u turn. That's stupid.

    My opinion? Keep it in for now, and see if the players learn to adapt to it, because doing so isn't hard.


    Deoxys-S seems almost laughable. It's attacking set has no priority or boosting worth using and needs to run life orb which gives it a timer. It's hazard lead is even more niche and risky. This guy is barely scraping it in OU as it is. Taking it out isn't hard.


    My opinion then, as succinctly as possible( my post is already long as it is)

    Luke- ban. He's too good.

    Genesect- more time. One move should not make something banned.

    Deoxys-S: give the dude a break, he's appropriately harmful
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2014
  5. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
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    lmao We're just now testing Mega Lucario? That thing is a Choice Band Terrakion with Choice Specs Keldeo duct-taped to its back with Starmie for shoes and a steel/fighting-typing. Kyurem-W is more OU than that.
    Like, not even joking.
    252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs 252 HP/252 Def Skarmory (+Def) : 48.5% - 57.49% (2-3 hits to KO)
    252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs 252 HP/252 Def Skarmory (+Def) : 49.7% - 58.68% (2-3 hits to KO)
    Not even joking.

    There is literally no downside to running it and every downside to not running it unless you're running Mega Venusaur to check Mega Lucario in the first place. I mean here are Mega Lucario's checks: Aegislash (at full HP), Choice Scarf Landorus-T, and Mega Venusaur with Earthquake. Pick one or two and try to survive in OU, especially without a Defog user.

    How was this not just quick-banned? Mega Kangaskhan was at least predictable; Lucario can run SD w/ Ice Punch, SD w/ Crunch, NP w/ Dual STAB, NP w/ Dark Pulse, and the less-threatening but effective Mixed set. You have a better chance of landing Fissure than guessing the opponent's Lucario set. And if you guess wrong; well, Gene Wilder put it best: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDW0ZnZxjn4
  6. Vertex

    Vertex

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    My personal thoughts:
    Lucarionite is probably the most broken. Mega Lucario cannot be walled easily. Things like Blissey who wall Nasty Plot are hit Super-effectively. Steel + Fighting coverage is amazing and priority in Bullet Punch, Extremespeed, and Vacuum Wave all having 80 bp is amazing. Now, Slowbro, and Gyarados is probably the closest you getting for defeating Mega Lucario easily, but both can be easily killed if Mega Lucario decides to boost twice, (I've faced this before since it can tank Flamethrower or double-switches cause it like that. In fact, just like Cloyster (not broken because of all the counters it has), it can sweep with little support like Landorus-I. These are just some points. This is quick post.

    Genesect give me mixed feelings. It has to deal with Talonflame and Aegislash which are omnipresent along with the new and better Heatran this generation. Band sets are frightening, but the damage output tells you that its not scarf being easier to deal with. Shift
    Gear has poor coverage. Expert Belt and Choice Scarf are prolly best Gene sets now, then SG, band, and LO. Choice Specs is good too. i would say band but the metagame can handle it better. Probably the thing that makes gene good is not itself but the combos it forms. Mega Lucario + Genesect is good, since mega luke will find many times to set-up. Combine that with Wish Togekiss for ex, a recycling sweep + scout core is made. Gene + Dugtrio is very good as well , since they both remove Tyranitar and Heatran, allowing a potential Volcarona or Talonflame to sweep with ease. However, I feel like gene + tar was one of the better combos. CB tar pursuit is good as u-turn scout checks and removes them. Heatran will suffer repeated pursuit damage + potential SR especially dark is neutral to steel. Kyurem-B and Genesect is also very powerful as well as gene + tornadus-t which provides excellent check = scout material on teams.

    Deoxys-S isn't broken imo. hazard suicide is very powerful but it isnt that potent this gen with defog all over the place, and more pokemon that can "OHKO" it like Talonflame and Aegislash and mamo lead growing more poular every month. rk set is reaaly good. it drags in everything its coverage can ohko like tyranitar, genesect, offensive scizor, and garchomp.

    these are my thoughts. anyone can argue against it
  7. preserve

    preserve

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    It can't sweep through a majority of OU without a boost. This leaves your opponent with an opportunity to take you out or do a lot of damage. If you're using the special set, you would like to use nasty plot, aura sphere, flashcannon, and either dark pulse or shadow ball. Taking one of these out for vacuum wave would either leave you hard walled by quite a few pokes or have a weak fighting stab.

    With the physical set both extreme speed and bullet punch are good priority moves and to have them both severely limit your coverage moves if you want to sweep through teams with swords dance. I don't think you can name one lucario set that can sweep through a majority of any pokemon. Honestly I think tentacruel one of the best checks/counters but it still gets wrecked by earthquake.
  8. Sturdynips

    Sturdynips
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    I think the best argument for banning Deoxys-s is the fact that it can revenge kill such a huge variety of Pokemon, regardless of the set that Pokemon is using. This pertains to Scarfers in particular. Scarf Genesect is usually a great answer to frail psychic-types; nope it's outsped and KO'd. CBsect is probably the only exception here, though Espeed does around max 65% without a Download boost, so it needs Deo-s to be weakened considerably. Things like +1 M-gyara, M-ttar etc are revenged too. LO Deoxys-S can quite easily run through offensive teams with little effort at all. Outside of Aegislash, there aren't a whole lot of things on offensive teams that can stop Deo-S, and it's easy to wear Aegis down with stuff like AV Conk and Dark Pulse Mega Luke. Whether this is banworthy, well i guess we will see, but it's 50/50 for me.

    Mega Luke, is just stupid. To be able to run equally good physical and special sets is absurdly good. Basically, you play the guessing game if it gets in for free; Send out Lando-T to eat a CC, instead you get wrecked by Flash Cannon.

    Genesect is also stupid. We all know how diverse it is; sure Scarf is common but its other sets are no less deadly. In fact, even assumptions like: "Shiny Genesect, I'd better be aware of Shift Gear or Espeed" are not wise because it is not uncommon to make Scarf Gene shiny just to bluff not having the scarf.
  9. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    Band Genesect is much easier to deal with? In what universe? Banded ESpeed is one of the best revenge killing tools available to anything, and CB-boosted U-turn and Iron Head, in addition to special coverage to donk Landorus-T (or Aegislash/other Steel-types if you're so inclined), are extremely powerful. The best part? People are used to the Scarf set bluffing whilst being shiny, so they will often treat it as a Scarf set until it's revealed the damage output. Then Rotom-W takes a huge amount from that (+1 possibly) CB-boosted U-turn. Azumarill, which can normally handle Genesect pretty decently, doesn't want to take a CB-boosted Iron Head. CB Genesect is a ridiculously strong pivot and revenge killer that can deal serious damage to virtually any team.

    In addition to the CB set, we have every other Genesect set. For example, Shift Gear, which I've been using a large amount of, is one of the best sweepers in OU with Heatran eliminated, which isn't too hard because luring and killing Heatran is pretty easy, or if you just run it on Deo-S teams (like most of them), you can chip away at it with other Pokemon. You can Knock Off its Leftovers with something like Mixed Thund-I, and hazards will just do the job from there. EBelt Genesect can bluff the common Choice item (which the foe can't risk Genesect using) and instantly gain momentum for its team when the foe switches into a Pokemon, expecting to force Genesect out, and is slaughtered with the appropriate coverage move.

    You've mentioned other ways to use it, such as the prominent Scarf (just didn't focus on it in this post, it's the best revenge killer besides maaaaaybe CB Talonflame in OU and gives insane momentum. Specs deals huge damage to unsuspecting threats. Physical LO w/o Shift Gear is great. There's sash, there's Occa, there's Assault Vest (see my most recent post in the Assault Vest thread for more details)...there is an infinite amount of Genesect variants, and they're all downright amazing. They also have different counters, depending on the variant, and fulfill all kinds of different roles on teams.

    Genesect's Speed is good (don't hate on 99 it's fine), it has twin high offensive stats, it has an amazing ability in Download, it has the best priority move in the game, it has decent defenses, it has a great typing, it can give instant quick momentum with U-turn, and you never know what it's running until it's too late. It has almost every possible trait an offensive Pokemon could receive, and is just totally insane for any team to handle. You can never be entirely safe against Genesect, and it fits into every offensive team ever. Teams are hugely disadvantaged by not running it, and that's not comparable to anything. There is no other Pokemon that demands a presence on virtually every slightly offensive team ever (don't give me Rotom-W as an example, it's not 'there'). Genesect is overall just way too good for OU.
    SJCrew, Thursday, XZ2H3000 and 7 others like this.
  10. Ulevo

    Ulevo

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    You could build a perfectly fine team without Mega Gengar? You're limited to 1 Mega per team, and it was a choice between Mega Gengar (which helped to deal with Mega Kangaskhan), or the same Mega Kangaskhan that you conceded was "absurdly overpowering." I think your rational here is a bit murky.

    I'm also curious what sort of conditions you do coincide with. I don't see any other relevant ones. Bans are strict measures meant to be used to make an otherwise unplayable or uncompetitive game playable and competitive by removing elements from it that impede or discourage competition. A Pokemon being really good, or even imbalanced, doesn't do this. If its really strong to use and a pain in the ass to play against it doesn't guarantee you success because there are methods in either team building or play to deal with it, and winning is still reasonably attainable by players that do and don't resort to using it while subsequently having to deal with it themselves. Broken Pokemon on the other hand, in the sense of strength, are toxic because they're required in order for you to succeed. This stagnates competition, and thus they're removed. Resorting to anything else is honestly just trying to balance the game whimsically in hopes you reach a more 'balanced' outcome for the meta, which can't be predicted and is a matter of perception to start.

    If you don't believe that it's a necessary point for an Uber, then you should. That's my take.
  11. JackTheGordie

    JackTheGordie

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    I don't think there's any OU mon left standing that could sweep the tier without a boost of some sort. Actually, the two previous quickbans both had an instant +2 moves. Lucario can pick two different +2 sets with both of them extemely deadly and easy to use. Everybody knew what khan and blaze's games were, so there were at least some ok checks. Hell mega luke forces MORE switches than the other two so it probably gets easier setup(ok easier than blaziken). 99/100 times luke comes in, he can scare whatever you have out while getting a free +2. And as to tentacruel being one of it's best counters(nobody runs eq):

    +2 252 Atk Close Combat vs 252 HP 252+ Def Tentacruel: (73-86.2%) A RESISTED HIT
    +2 252 Atk Close Combat vs 252 HP 0 Def Tentacruel: (110.4-130.2%)

    If your wondering about the second calc, that's what happens when you guess it's set incorrectly. Tentacuel can handle it's Special sets as long as it has max HP investment, but do keep in mind the fact that it has very solid 80/120 special bulk AND resists dual stab.
  12. I Appreciate It

    I Appreciate It

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    People here are voting to ban these pokemon, especially mega lucario, because rhey dont know how they work. If you were a great battler you would carry pokemon that have a move that can take care of SIMILAR THREATS, not specific ones as many people are argueing (tem saying that you need a specific mon in order to take care of one specific mom). I started competitive battling when x and y came out, and im pretty good. When i make a new team i go over possible tgreats to my team, and work from there. It seems, im restating, IT SEEMS like you people build great teams that only have one weakness, one of these three. Malamar with topsy turvy counters Mega Luke, a scarfed Garchomp with fire fang can do a great amoumt of damage to Genesect (if im not mistaken), and a ny priority thunder waver can shut down Deoxys Speed. Tere are nters that fill other roles, so no, the checks and counters listed arent specific, and can be seen on many teams.

    By the way, im sorry if i spunded harsh and i apologize to people that find this post ratger offensive to them.

    Edit: Also consider Fire blast on garchomp, since it is more common.
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2014
  13. Serrak

    Serrak

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    There are numerous other factors in play about Genesect, one of the biggest I think is download. despite Genesect not commonly running STAB other than U-Turn, +1 is equal to it having STAB on either all of it's physical or special moves. Many variants are either mixed with Iron Head, or almost completely physical, meaning those last 4 evs in spec d can screw you over.

    Now with that in mind, try to find a way to adapt to something like that with it spamming U-Turn. Trapping can work after it revenges something, but 1.) this implies Genesect has already partially completed it's job and 2.) perfect, unless it's the expert belt set. If it's only SE attacks would have KO'd the target anyway (and unless you've frisked or scouted it with a slower scarfer), it can be impossible to tell the difference. You bring Wob in after an unboosted T-Bolt kills your Gyrados, only for Wob to eat a +1 U-Turn and end up mirror coating for nothing at the switch in. Since Steel lost it's dark resistance, pursuiting becomes a viable option... but most pursuiters are dark types, and as such won't like taking U-Turns. Two of the most relevant, weavile and T-Tar will be destroyed by Iron Head from an E-Belt set anyway. Faster fire scarfers can safely eliminate any Genesect, except banded E-Speed variants.

    The issue is, if you adapt to Genesect, it'll adapt to you. When everyone can handle one set, another will become popular to compensate. And because Genesect's sets are so varied and numerous, you can never be on top of them all. I was looking at the Ou Viabillity rankings, and noticed Entei is ranked as a B. the same Entei that couldn't find four moves for a physical set in RU last generation. Did I miss Entei getting like wild charge, earthquake or close combat or something, or is it only OU viable because scarf variants beat Genesect?

    Assuming Luke is boosting while you switch Malamar in, how are you living the +2 close combat/Aura sphere? I think I addressed Genesect pretty well above, but either you're switching your Scarfchomp into an attack, (most likely a U-Turn or ice beam, and even if it isn't it'll switch out), or bringing it in after it's revenged something, in which case 1.)it's done it's job and 2.) it'll probably switch out. One of the biggest issues with Genesect is getting it to stay put. In addition to being able to switch out for fear of your prio T-wave, Deo-S can run magic coat to bounce it back. None of these methods are a consistant way to counter these threats.
    XZ2H3000 and Rotten Seagull like this.
  14. PrincessDerpy

    PrincessDerpy

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    Killing Luke, provided it hasn't mega evolved yet, and provided you get in cleanly, is doable. But what about afterward? It is fiendishly hard to take vengeance upon due to outspeeding a lot of threats. If at +2 AND mevo'd, good luck. Even then the revenge killers all tend to be scarfmons as few things that are faster than M.Luke can stomach a +2 ESpeed. I mean, Breloom could revenge kill, except luke isn't staying in on that shit and Breloom can't switch in because it does to +0 CC.

    I mean yeah at the bottom of the ladder where people do stupid things with him like stay in on a Mienshao lead when they don't have a ghost in their lineup, he's easy to deal with. Except when you run into someone competent who abuses one of your supportmons that can't threaten him to get a free boost and go on a rampage. If you don't have a scarfmon that can murder him at that point, you have absolutely no options. And even then some of those don't want to take an Adaptability CC to the face.

    The only pokemon that can actually switch into his face are Moltres, Bulky Volcarona and a bulky offense variant of Mega Venusaur as the defensive variant gets shit on because quake won't do enough damage for the OHKO. (A 252HP/252DEF variant with an Adamant nature works, but that's somewhat specific)

    He got Sacred Fire, which makes a banded set hilarious since resists or not, a damaging move with a 50% burn rate is extremely spammable. A lot of things that could otherwise switch in and murder him/whatever gets switched in could end up regretting it at the flip of a coin.

    Still hates Heatran, still wishes he had a better move for dealing with Heatran than Bulldoze.
  15. PrincessDerpy

    PrincessDerpy

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    If you have ANYTHING on your team that cannot threaten a 2HKO or crippling to Mega Luke, it is setup bait.

    The special variant DGAF about burns, so those stop counting.

    As for what you lost in your outlined scenario, you lost Malamar's sash to briefly halt Luke. It gets switched out and you can't pull that stunt again.
  16. I Appreciate It

    I Appreciate It

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    Your argument is very valid, and me and my friend already talked about this. There are two things that come into play when you switch to your Malamar. The app intent brings out their Luke (assuming he/she is trying to revenge kill). He or she then predicts a switch (why not? Think about it, since many people say that Luke produces switches). If the apponent is smart, they will use a boosting on the switch, again why not? You switch into your Malamar. Going with the focus sash set, and no stealth rocks are up, or spikes, etc., you come in unscathed. It attacks, you use topsy turvy, Luke shut down. You then switch. Done. No one died. No sacrifices. The other thing: who the heck is dumb enough to allow a Lucario to set up, really?!

    That's that for Lucario in response to your argument. Now for genesect. If you re a good predictor, assuming that you are, you would predict a Genesect, also because you know it so well. Switch into a ghost/fire or ghost/steel, or something that resists bug and ice, then double switch into your Garchomp. That is, if you have played smartly enough to fool your apponent into thinking that your Garchomp is not a counter, nor a check.

    As for the thunder wavers, 2 things. One, I've actually, believe it or not, never seen or heard of a deoxys running magic coat. So there goes the deoxys, and the thunder wavers can take a hit (max defensive (hp,def,spdef) klefki or focus sash meowstic). The second thing is that I actually now agree that Deoxys might be a little to powerful for the meta game, especially when paired with the two others.

    I hoped argument made sense, as this is my second post, ever.
  17. TooMuchSugar

    TooMuchSugar

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    You could definitely build a good team without Mega Gengar - its main use was as a somewhat suicidal trapper for other sweepers, so it was great on HO, but not as much on bulky offense (also stall lol).
    I definitely don't think that a pokemon has to be "required" in order to be broken. Actually, a pokemon is almost never required because if nothing else, it's probably only good on one of HO and stall. But ignoring that, it is perfectly possible to be successful using good-but-not-broken stuff, even in a meta with broken things (I apologize for repeated use of the word broken, I realize that it's ambiguous).

    My understanding is that the general definition of something being broken is that it puts unnecessary pressure on the player during teambuilding. In this case, Mega-Lucario is definitely broken as you always need one of relatively few checks (and even then you might not be able to beat it), Genesect may be broken because it is definitely important to have something that can take a U-Turn. However, Deoxys-S tends to be checked perfectly well in the course of normal teambuilding in my experience, so by this criteria it would not be broken.

    The argument mostly makes sense, but it relies on a LOT of prediction, and usually prediction wars like this are frowned on when talking about whether you can check something - if you need to outpredict it to beat it, you're not a reliable check. Also this only works if your Malamar is already out because if you bring it in on a Lucario, any good player will assume that something is up. Same goes for switching a Garchomp into Genesect - if Gene is locked into Flamethrower or Thunderbolt, it'll switch out. If it's locked into Ice Beam, it will assume that any Garchomp switched into it must be scarfed. If it's locked into U-Turn, then it's already long gone.
    I will admit that Deo-S rarely runs Magic Coat (although it's viable). Anyway, the main method of checking it isn't prankster thunder wave, but simple revenge killing with priority or bulk.
  18. I Appreciate It

    I Appreciate It

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    That's true. Dang it, I hate how that pro banning outweighs the con banning. It does take prediction, and although the next thing I'm going to say is about predicting, I'm going to say it anyways. For the genesect. It is locked into a move that won't damage your recently arrived Garchomp. If the gene. is scarfed, it will switch. If you know it is scarfed, it will switch. This switch will allow you to do whatever you want the chomp, like swords dancing if you think a counter is coming, or just attacking. Unfortunately, I have no more arguments, and both the player an the opponent are stuck in a prediction war, which is stressful.

    I also don't want to see mega luke and genesect go...
  19. Ajwf

    Ajwf

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Messages:
    970
    This man deserves "failed troll of the year"... they have leftover grammys, right?

    So... All I need to do to beat mega lucario... is sash Malamar, that godawful piece of trash. Then, I use topsy-turvy after his boost, assuming no damage when coming in, and surviving his hit. I proceed to to live with one health and... Mega lucario died from a heart attack? I'm missing something. This is like South Park...

    Phase 1: Topsy Turvy Malamar.
    Phase 2: ???
    Phase 3: Profit.


    With genesect, I guess I must need to study from the best... When I have a skarm on the field, a gliscor in reserve, and a Rotom-w in reserve, what does my opponent's genesect do? Who the hell knows? He probably goes special, but on to what HE predicts, what bullshit that I need to somehow mastermind a devious plot to know exactly what is about to happen. Prediction, as a whole, is a sad excuse for justifying a pokemon in OU.

    I predicted your Arceus-rock to come in, so my Alakazam used drain punch. Right? Prediction just solved arceus rock...
  20. TooMuchSugar

    TooMuchSugar

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2012
    Messages:
    443
    I can understand that you don't want them to go (I don't even think Genesect is broken, for other reasons). Yes, you can beat a lot of things if you predict better than them and honestly, that's always going to happen (in my opinion, that's one of the best aspects of competitive pokemon). However, when that prediction involves getting swept if it goes wrong (mega lucario) or losing a lot of momentum and some chip damage if it goes wrong (genesect), it's far from optimal. In determining whether they're broken, we're looking for more reliable ways of keeping them in check. More reliable ways do in fact exist for both, by the way, so see if you can find mentions to them earlier in the thread.

    EDIT: not that this is really relevant, but:
    252+ Atk Life Orb Alakazam Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Rock: 112-133 (29.3 - 34.9%) -- 5.4% chance to 3HKO
    Nope.
    Calm_Mind_Latias likes this.
  21. preserve

    preserve

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    157
    This is true, but because it's so frail it risks getting killed by a move trying to set up. Mega Kangaskan has good bulk so it can risk staying in and set up. Either way any good team needs at least one good physical and special wall and a way to play around it. I can continue on with this point, but I don't want to theorymon. I think my other points also stand of it having somewhat limited coverage moves and limited opportunities of mega evolving because of the speed mechanics.
  22. Shiruba

    Shiruba

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2013
    Messages:
    1,932
    It's not frail, though. Seriously.
    252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 168-200 (59.7 - 71.1%)
    That's super-effective STAB priority from a max attack Conkeldurr. It is not frail. It's not a tank, it doesn't have Arceus-esque defences, but 70/88/70 is not bad at all for an offensive 'mon, particularly given Lucario's nice defensive typing.
    XZ2H3000, sidakarya and Karxrida like this.
  23. Xlstevo

    Xlstevo

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2014
    Messages:
    136
    Mega lucario IMO is the highest chance of getting sent to ubers. Why? We'll adaptability with mega Luke and that SpA/speed combo is somewhat over powered. Genosect is IMO the second most likely heading to ubers. The download notifies the opponents weaker stats of defense. Common sets I see is ice beam, bolt, flamethrower and u turn. That move set is difficult to avoid. Deoxys S, would and should not be sent to ubers. There are many counters of deoxys s. Such as ability magic bounce, taunt, encore, etc.
  24. Calm_Mind_Latias

    Calm_Mind_Latias

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2013
    Messages:
    432
    Indeed, having to use Life Orb and Iron Fist makes that Conkeldurr is "niche" counter.
  25. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,158
    I don't really get why people are so averse to banning Megas. As it is, the tier is essentially "5 OU Pokemon + 1 Uber" because certain Megas (Luke, Charizard, Pinsir) are easily on the same level as several Ubers, in terms of stats and sheer wall-breaking capability.
    Living So Zambian likes this.
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