Pokémon Deoxys-Speed

[Gary]

This is what I meant - Deoxys-S has a niche, which NOTHING else can fill - extremely fast revenge killer which can switch between moves. Being Choice locked (also in a metagame where Shadow Tag/Arena Trap users are available) is not only momentum killer (if you use wrong move), but may end up as 100% trapped and dead Pokemon. This guy totally ignores this fact. BTW about more special attack based spread - if you don't care about Volcarona and Blissey (my team actually does, even if they aren't that common) this EVs spread is better. And on mine one more thing - I still like this little oomph on damage in case I must use physical attack after SpA drop from Psycho Boost. But honestly I would swap Fire Punch, as with only 20 Atk EVs is really weak. While base power difference is noticeable, HP Fire in this case will IMO work better.



Yep, not that common, but better be safe just in case. Although I would need to check some numbers to see if little additional bulk helps to survive certain hits. If it does - you may lower it for example to +1 DD Dragonite level if you feel this is your need (although IMO next best speed bench mark is the one which allows you to outspeed Scarf Genesect or Volcarona after one QD). If not - IMO just stick to this speed number. You have ALOT of possibilities for Speed EVs numbers taking into account that with 0 Speed EVs and Neutral nature you STILL outspeed positive base 130 (by 2 points).

I did some damage calculations, and you're right, Hidden Power Fire is actually a bit more powerful. I always seem to pass over Hidden Power as an option with the nerf and all, but with HP Fire, LO Deoxys-S can OHKO Banded Scizor 100% after SR. Just don't forget to adjust the EV spread according, because with HP Fire, its Speed drops by 1 IV point. The new spread should be 16 Atk / 252 SpA / 240 Spe, to still have the jump on Scarf Garchomp.

 

[Haruno]

Haunter laying down the law.

So how valuable is the dual screen set this generation? Suicide rock leads aren't worth it, I believe. But does the hyper offense lead still cut it on teams?

Dual screens are about as useful as hazards are. Incredibly useful when they're active but defog gives it hell.

 

[AOPSUser]

Dual screens are about as useful as hazards are. Incredibly useful when they're active but defog gives it hell.

Personally I like Klefki as a Dual Screener more than Deoxys-S since it has the durability to screen multiple times. It can also run moves like Foul Play to screw with Aegislash and co.

Also it's not that easy to Defog, especially against a Hyper Offense team.

 

[ogasian]

I can't speak for the OU metagame, but Hazards Lead in Ubers is still incredibly effective. It can easily set up 2 layers so long as you don't lead with it against a team with Gira/Aegi. While Defog did hurt it's niche as a suicide hazards layer, it is actually pretty damn hard to Defog against a well built HO team. Dual Screens is he second best IMO, it can help Mega-Blaze set up and with SD/Knock Off/Low Kick/Blitz it can be a terrifying force to face. Haven't used it in OU yet but perhaps a LO set could work like last gen.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

So how valuable is the dual screen set this generation? Suicide rock leads aren't worth it, I believe. But does the hyper offense lead still cut it on teams?

I'm not going to lie...the Dual Screens set doesn't seem as important with Chandelure, Crobat, and Noivern in the meta. Since they can bypass it...it isn't as important as one would think. The Hyper Offense, though, can rip through many Pokemon with the right moves.

Okay guys. Deoxys-N has been banned from OU, so it seems that Deoxys-S has hit the spotlight. I'd personally like to see a Deoxys-D thread, but I will not make it. Though I love Deoxys-D, I admire Deoxys-S even more because of its higher versatility. A side note will be added to the Choice Specs set regarding trappers like Mega Gengar.

 

[Aldaron]

Honestly, once we start formal suspect testing with the release of Pokebank, I am going to be pushing for this to made a suspect.

The bulky Rocket Helmet double hazards set literally controls the flow of the battle, REGARDLESS of Defog or not.

I feel like as generations increase and as the number of viable offensive Pokemon increases, the support effect of hazards has to be considered increasing as well, and probably in more than a simple linear 1 to 1 relationship. Hazards get better and better as more offensive Pokemon are introduced into the metagame, so I really have to consider any Pokemon that can viably set up SR and Spikes with high Speed and Taunt to block other Taunters as extremely dangerous.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

Honestly, once we start formal suspect testing with the release of Pokebank, I am going to be pushing for this to made a suspect.

No need.

Just letting everyone know that Deoxys-S will be the first Pokemon to be suspect tested in Gen VI.

 

[Thorhammer]

Honestly, once we start formal suspect testing with the release of Pokebank, I am going to be pushing for this to made a suspect.

The bulky Rocket Helmet double hazards set literally controls the flow of the battle, REGARDLESS of Defog or not.

I feel like as generations increase and as the number of viable offensive Pokemon increases, the support effect of hazards has to be considered increasing as well, and probably in more than a simple linear 1 to 1 relationship. Hazards get better and better as more offensive Pokemon are introduced into the metagame, so I really have to consider any Pokemon that can viably set up SR and Spikes with high Speed and Taunt to block other Taunters as extremely dangerous.

Interesting. Can you elaborate? I haven't seen any other mention of quite that set around here, at least not with Rocky Helmet.

 

[effyouzion]

Honestly, once we start formal suspect testing with the release of Pokebank, I am going to be pushing for this to made a suspect.

The bulky Rocket Helmet double hazards set literally controls the flow of the battle, REGARDLESS of Defog or not.

I feel like as generations increase and as the number of viable offensive Pokemon increases, the support effect of hazards has to be considered increasing as well, and probably in more than a simple linear 1 to 1 relationship. Hazards get better and better as more offensive Pokemon are introduced into the metagame, so I really have to consider any Pokemon that can viably set up SR and Spikes with high Speed and Taunt to block other Taunters as extremely dangerous.

All true, but if you're running a hyper offense team (the only team worth running with a hazards lead), you're bound to have at least one sweeper who gets walled by Skarmory or Gliscor. And when you're playing at the top of the ladder that's littered with stall and bulky teams, once you let one of those guys switch in, your hazards are gone thanks to defog. You will definitely do some damage with your hazards, but it's not like last gen where every poke on the other team is guaranteed to be at 88% or lower on their first switch.

I definitely like your rocky helmet idea because it stops Kangaskhan from setting up for free, but I think that's a double-edged sword because against a lot of other teams (read: anything with shadow ball) you're going to only get 1 layer of hazards up, and I really question whether that's worth it in this generation.

 

[Tesung]

can someone explain to me how any hazards set is better that rocky helmet deoxys d? While deo d does have downsides, like that turn of set up to thinks like lucario, most teams wont be getting swept early. Not to mention that it doesn't ever need a sash, and has the bulk to abuse magic coat, allowing it to beat deoxys s leads easily. Deoxys s has that fast taunt and can fire punch scarfed genesects, but I have used both, and i think deo d had performed better. I'm sure there are arguments for the other side, and I would like to hear more about aldarons rocky helmet deoxys s (I've never seen it).

 

[RufflesPro]

Deoxys-S guarantees 2+ turns of setting up, with focus sash and incredible speed, the only problem is priority.

252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 229-273 (75.3 - 89.8%)
however
252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 242-289 (79.6 - 95%)

Deoxys-D can be OHKO-ed even without setting up Hazards, while Deoxys-S, again can set up 2+, as previously mentioned, Rock Helmet works on him better because Leftovers doesn't really work on him, not to mention with 252 HP you'd be surviving some hits, or just go 0 HP with Focus Sash, it's really up to you, I definitely think Deoxys-S > Deoxys-D, in many various ways

 

[Tesung]

What ohkos deo d? Cb genesect with a +1 attack, nothing else that outspeeds. Lol I'm sure someone can do betterbetter

 

[Shurtugal]

Won't this get banned for practically the same reasons as Deo-N and Deo-A?

It's powerful and unpredictable offensively and sets up hazards with impunity and it can revenge kill anything...

 

[Garchompi]

When I see a Deoxys-S in team preview I just let it do its thing (it's almost always used as a lead) and after it gets KO'd I simply Defog all the hazards it managed to lay down... tell me why this thing is broken in XY again? Why is it more broken than, say, Forretress and Skarmory with SR and Spikes? I could understand in BW when spinblocking stopped any attempt to get rid of those hazards but nothing stops Defog in XY.
If you have Defog and the opponent leads with Deo-S it's almost like starting the match with 6 vs 5 pokemon.

I'll go as far as saying that Deo-D is actually better than Deo-S because it has the bulk to lay down hazards multiple times in the match and doesn't get 2HKO'd by priority, which is everywhere in BW.

 

[haunter]

Shurtugal, I believe you very well know that Deo-S is comparable to its normal and offense formes only in terms of team support. Base 95 offensive stats are pathetic in today's metagame so, if this thing gets banned, it's gonna be probably because of its support characteristics.

 

[lopsided]

Not contributing much to the general discussion but I'm curious whether Psycho Boost has met the same fate as similar special moves this gen, although its exclusivity probably means otherwise.
Definitely looking forward to seeing what emerges from this testing period.

 

[Nysyr]

Shurtugal, I believe you very well know that Deo-S is comparable to its normal and offense formes only in terms of team support. Base 95 offensive stats are pathetic in today's metagame so, if this thing gets banned, it's gonna be probably because of its support characteristics.

It is actually very good offensively, which is why with its 180 base speed can be a terror for faster offensive teams to face. To put it blunty, it outspeeds base 104 scarfers and Base 65 @ +2, thats just how fast it is. Some big names fall under that Category in Genesect and Garchomp, which are both easily OHKOed.

If they run Life orb and Investment, leading out with Genesect like you would against a Deo-D will potentially have you losing your scarfer.

Relevant calcs:

Hide

252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 468-556 (130.7 - 155.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 291-343 (102.8 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
16 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 406-478 (100.4 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Look at the average Kel-Tar-Lando-I team of last gen. Almost the entire team is OHKOed by Deoxys-S.

 

[haunter]

Deoxys-S can be a terror for offensive teams but, unlike it's Attack and Normal counterparts, it lacks the firepower to break balanced/defensive teams, which is exactly why I said that, should Deoxys-S get banned, it certainly won't be because of its offensive presence. Again, its attacking stats are mediocre at best and unless it manages to hit its opponent for SE damage, it's not going to do much.

Deo-S was banned under the support characteristic in Gen V and supporting its team mates is still what it does best in this generation.

 

[Schpoonman]

It only wrecks offensive teams that don't carry something with a scarf that outspeeds it (and last gen was the gen that introduced the Swords of Justice as well as bringing Latios back down to OU so we have those guys and then some) or doesn't have priority (we've got four new insanely powerful priority users in Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Absol, Talonflame, and Aegislash, all except Talonflame hitting super effectively with their priority, plus all the priority users we already had) that can threaten to KO it. I suppose you could make the argument that offensive Deo-S is fairly rare, but the same as usage stats not equating brokenness (Deo-D being UU briefly before its ban in Gen V), if something is rare that doesn't mean you DON'T prepare for it if it's powerful. I ran into a guy tonight using a level 1 Sturdy Magnemite with Toxic, Recycle, and Protect with a Berry Juice. I don't have hazards on that team, but I was lucky enough to be packing RestTalk Zygarde so I could beat it since he couldn't Toxic stall me. Just because FEAR is gimmicky and rare doesn't mean you don't make even a minor adjustment so you're not as vulnerable if you get beat by it. Offensive Deo-S is beatable. It's damn good, but so are half the Megas and about a hundred other Pokemon we prepare for.

To more directly answer your question "Why do we only care about what Pokemon do to stall?" Offense archetypes are doing just fine. There's no defensive analogue to Kyurem-B that is so close to unbreakable that it's starting to undo the metagame.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

I kind of want to add that Landorus-I wasn't banned solely because of U-Turn. Its ability to go Physical with Sand Force was enough of a merit to run it in Sandstorm, but its ability to go Special with Sheer Force was just as feared. It wasn't just U-Turn; it was also completely unpredictible and could easily throw anybody off, almost guaranteeing a free KO. To clearify, Life Orb Deoxys-S may be a threat to Offensive Teams, but that's just the tip of the iceberg of what it can do. Is it a good Revenge Killer? Yes. Is it a good sweeper? To some extent. In general, though, most people see Deoxys-S as support, which it can pull off well...arguably better than it can with offenses, but that's another story. Mega Gengar didn't just threaten stall, anyways; it threatened EVERYTHING. Landorus-I didn't just threaten stall; it threatened just about EVERYTHING. Deoxys-S always threatened everything because of its unpredictibility, making it hard to guess what it will do. Haunter made a point stated here:

Should Deoxys-S get banned, it certainly won't be because of its offensive presence.

It's not Deoxys-S's main selling point, so it's unlikely going to be the reason it will be banned. As Haunter has said, unless Deoxys-S is hitting for Super-Effective damage, it's not doing...THAT much, especially with Bulky Offense rising up.

 

[Ash Borer]

Deo-S still does hazards quite well, and resists opponent's setting up on you with taunt brilliantly. Standard taunt / hazards / fire punch @ sash works very well. For an offensive team a layer or 2 of hazards is worth a pokemon everytime. I find it to be pretty ridiculous how you can basically gain an advantage at the start of every battle getting your hazards down with no worries. Defog does NOTHING to stop deo when it has the fastest taunt in the game. After that blunt offensive pressure keeps the defog off. The "deo-s + 5" archetype of teams is just so mindless and good.

 

[SpaceFlare]

How about something like this:

Deoxys-S @ Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Stealth Rock
- Psycho Boost
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt

This is a Life Orb Deoxys-S that can break through the opponents walls and revenge kill almost anything in the game. This can also be used as a lead, and carries Stealth Rock to bluff a lead set. It can eradicate most spinners that aren't Excadrill after they've come in to try to counter a lead set (thinking of Starmie and Donphan here). Max speed is in hope that Deoxys can get in Stealth Rock before it gets Taunted by other Deoxys, and maximum Sp. Atk investment is to hit as hard as possible. You can probably fit Taunt in there somewhere if you want to use it against other Deoxys, but you will lose out on some coverage. Psycho Boost is for STAB, and BoltBeam is to maximize coverage.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

Updates:

-Added Talonflame to the list of Revenge Killers after doing some calculations and found that Choice Band Brave Bird is a OHKO.
-Added three other possible sets to Other Options that Deoxys-D would outclass it in: ToxiStall, Gravity, and Paralysis Spreader

Possible later updates if by popular demand:

-Might possibly add Mandibuzz as an overall check, albeit a shaky one. With what little bulk it has, it has an 82.4% (I think that's the number I got; didn't write it down like an idiot) chance of being 2HKO'd with Leftovers Recovery, assuming Timid, Maximum Sp. Atk investment, and Life Orb. Though this is true, Mandibuzz has a Foul Play that 2HKOs and Defog to mess with Deoxys-S unless it Taunts (normally will, so go straight for the Foul Play). Thoughts on this?
-Sticky Web would completely destroy Deoxys-S because it takes away its best weapon: its Speed. Therefore, it probably should get a mention in the Checks and Counters, but I want to hear what everyone else says first before I blindly add it myself.

...and that's the news. Continue on, everybody.

 

[Shroomisaur]

Updates:

-Added Talonflame to the list of Revenge Killers after doing some calculations and found that Choice Band Brave Bird is a OHKO.
-Added three other possible sets to Other Options that Deoxys-D would outclass it in: ToxiStall, Gravity, and Paralysis Spreader

Possible later updates if by popular demand:

-Might possibly add Mandibuzz as an overall check, albeit a shaky one. With what little bulk it has, it has an 82.4% (I think that's the number I got; didn't write it down like an idiot) chance of being 2HKO'd with Leftovers Recovery, assuming Timid, Maximum Sp. Atk investment, and Life Orb. Though this is true, Mandibuzz has a Foul Play that 2HKOs and Defog to mess with Deoxys-S unless it Taunts (normally will, so go straight for the Foul Play). Thoughts on this?
-Sticky Web would completely destroy Deoxys-S because it takes away its best weapon: its Speed. Therefore, it probably should get a mention in the Checks and Counters, but I want to hear what everyone else says first before I blindly add it myself.

...and that's the news. Continue on, everybody.

Yes, Talonflame is a huge problem for Deo-S (and just about any sweeper, really). CB Talon is a guaranteed OHKO, while even LO has a 56% chance.

As for those Other Options, as you said, it's outclassed and those aren't very good sets to begin with. Deo-S has much much better things to be doing than Toxic stall...

Mandibuzz is actually quite a solid check to anything other than pure special Deo-S. 248/0 Mandibuzz has an 89% chance to be 2HKO'd by LO Ice Beam, but a mixed 248/120 Mandi has a mere 1% chance to be 2HKO'd. Foul Play deals 80-95.4% in return to Timid Deo-S and OHKO's any mixed/physical ones.

Speaking of mixed, I personally would never run an offensive Deo-S without Superpower in this meta full of Dark-types. 12 EVs are all you need with LO to guarantee the OHKO on 252/0 TTar:

12 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 406-478 (100.4 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Substitute also deserves a mention even on Life Orb sets. You'll get worn down very quickly, but without it, Deo-S is doomed by the incredibly common Sucker Punch. Blocking TWaves and easing prediction is just gravy.

 

[Tesung]

Starmie is a very good check, especially bulky versions, as it can spin away the hazards as they are being set up, and isn't hit neutrally by the life orb sets coverage moves. As a side note, almost any reasonably bulky psychic type (reuniclis, slowbro, etc are good checks/counters).