Murkrow, Meditite, and Swagger have been banned

[Merritt]

I don't have too much to say since I prefer overseeing the discussion, but can we please stop saying Meditite is slow lol. Unless you think Pawniard (16) is slow, Meditite is not. And none of that "but people use Adamant" claptrap. Jolly Meditite is the bee's fucking knees.

The only Meditite that has any business running 16 speed is LO Tite, since you either have to sacrifice bulk, turning so many of the possible OHKOs and 2HKOs into solid OHKOs, or lose even more attack than you already do by running Jolly, which gives you half a dozen new checks and counters. There will always be weird sets that are "fully bulky" or "speedy sweeper", but that really shouldn't come into the equation.

One of the major problems with Meditite is that it can kill something, but if the opponent has one of its checks - and I don't care if you run Fire Punch, Honedge and Misdreavus are solid checks - then you've given up momentum, and Meditite simply does not have the bulk to let that happen. So many of it beating checks or counters rely on it having full HP, if it loses that then it becomes something that must be played riskily.

Also wtf are you talking about pawn's slow as balls

Meditite can actually check Pawniard even after a Swords Dance which makes a huge impact in a game. To top it off, it can check it with Drain Punch, meaning its healed up some of its HP (meaning it can still check things like Mienfoo and Timburr). This is where I think Meditite shines, it can check so many things but keep its HP high enough to keep doing it for more than one Pokemon per game.

You cannot always guarantee that you will check a +2 pawniard, due to the fact that although not all pawniard will run max attack, some will.

+2 236+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Meditite: 19-24 (90.4 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

+2 236+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Meditite: 18-22 (85.7 - 104.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
(+2 236+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Meditite: 16-21 (84.2 - 110.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO)

 

[Heysup]

+2 236+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Meditite: 19-24 (90.4 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Real nice check you got there, champ. Oh wait, you run max speed Eviolite Meditite?

+2 236+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Meditite: 18-22 (85.7 - 104.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
(+2 236+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Meditite: 16-21 (84.2 - 110.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO)

SD Pawniard usually only runs 76 EVs in Attack (from what I've seen anyway), Max+/Max is usually not used unless you're running Choice Scarf (in which case, Jolly is still probably more common).

Most common spreads are: Adamant:0/236/36/0/196/0 17.003% | Jolly:0/156/36/0/116/196 12.208% | Jolly:0/236/36/0/36/196 9.890%

The analysis suggests the second one which does

+2 156 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Meditite: 16-21 (76.1 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
(16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21)

Meaning they are either outsped by (and surviving Sucker Punch from) or failing to KO Meditite.

Also what's with the condescension? If you're going to be condescending at least do research to back it up. Rude....

 

[Artemisa]

One of the major problems with Meditite is that it can kill something, but if the opponent has one of its checks - and I don't care if you run Fire Punch, Honedge and Misdreavus are solid checks - then you've given up momentum, and Meditite simply does not have the bulk to let that happen. So many of it beating checks or counters rely on it having full HP, if it loses that then it becomes something that must be played riskily.

Why do you call them checks if you bring them after something has died? What you just described is revenge killing. You used Fire Punch + Zen in your post so lets see how they do as "checks": You switch Honedge on Zen Headbutt which dies about 20% I think? (Going off by head) Then you have successfully forced about Meditite once. You repeat the process again and now you're at 60%, next turn it doesn't have to switch and it can Fire Punch for a chance to KO. You only forced it out once in 3 turns then died your next encounter with it. That isn't a very good check. Missy gets 2hko'd by ZHB and 3hko'd by elemental punches, with rocks the elemental punches have a chance to 2HKO. Btw the set I'm talking about is eviolite. Also the thing that separates Meditite from other Wallbreakers (It has been said before) is that it doesn't have to run LO for it to wallbreak, it can still use eviolite and wallbreak just aswell. Meditite eviolite is definitely not as frail as LO Gastly or LO Cranidos.

 

[gali]

The only Meditite that has any business running 16 speed is LO Tite, since you either have to sacrifice bulk, turning so many of the possible OHKOs and 2HKOs into solid OHKOs, or lose even more attack than you already do by running Jolly, which gives you half a dozen new checks and counters. There will always be weird sets that are "fully bulky" or "speedy sweeper", but that really shouldn't come into the equation.

Eviolite Meditite absolutely can afford to run Jolly. 16 Speed allows it to beat things like bulky Mienfoo without getting its Eviolite knocked off in the process. This actually adds to its bulk in the long run, instead of compromising it as you said.

 

[Merritt]

Why do you call them checks if you bring them after something has died? What you just described is revenge killing.

Actually, what I was describing is not revenge killing. From the issue of the Smog released in January

Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

I, personally, have always interpreted this as either when something dies, or when, while switching in, the opponent does nothing that would cause your check to lose, e.g. switching in on a drain punch with a ghost type will be checking, switching in on recover when you will always OHKO is a check, switching in on a Swords Dance when at +2 they will KO you before you can do so to them is not.

The very definition of checking implies revenge killing, or switching in on a move that will do nothing to reduce your chances of KOing it. Countering differs in that what you switch in is not reliant on your opponent, Checking relies on what your opponent does, is how I understand it. If I am incorrect, then please let me know.

Honedge, if the opposing Meditite goes for Drain Punch, comes in just as safely as if something had died to let it in. We all use this sort of strategy, this is nothing new. In addition, your scenario still gives up momentum - Meditite is now switching out, giving your opponent a free turn. For Honedge, to continue the example, this means a free chance to set up with Swords Dance or Autotomize, for Misdreavus this could mean a chance to burn the switch in or a Nasty Plot, and so on.

Eviolite Meditite absolutely can afford to run Jolly. 16 Speed allows it to beat things like bulky Mienfoo without getting its Eviolite knocked off in the process. This actually adds to its bulk in the long run, instead of compromising it as you said.

I apologize for speaking in extremes. However, by running that speed to beat bulky Mienfoo, you open yourself to OHKOs from Fletchling and Misdreavus, both of whom outspeed it even with that extra investment. In the end, while you do neuter an essentially non-threat, you open yourself to much greater threats.

I also want to apologize to Heysup for coming off as condescending. I have since edited my post to be more accurate. However, I will also state that while most Pawniard aren't running max attack on swords dance, that still leaves it open to defiant boosts, and also would invalidate a fairly important portion of the discussion, as around 89% of Meditite do not run either Poison Jab or Fire Punch.

 

[Artemisa]

Honedge, if the opposing Meditite goes for Drain Punch, comes in just as safely as if something had died to let it in. We all use this sort of strategy, this is nothing new. In addition, your scenario still gives up momentum - Meditite is now switching out, giving your opponent a free turn. For Honedge, to continue the example, this means a free chance to set up with Swords Dance or Autotomize, for Misdreavus this could mean a chance to burn the switch in or a Nasty Plot, and so on.

Kk Missy is one, but Honedge isn't if you are facing Zen Headbutt + Fire Punch. By switching in on Zen Headbutt, next turn Meditite can ko with fire punch (Factoring in rocks). Honedge switch into Fighting moves and psychic from Meditite so I think this is a likely scenario.

 

[chimp]

After researching and doing some calcs (and reading some of the great posts in this thread!), I have to say, the biggest reason Meditite stands out, to me atleast, as possibly broken may be because of its Psychic stab. If you were to, theoretically, take away tite's psychic STAB, then I'd think it would be a lot less troubling. Only two types resist it and only one is immune. One of the former being steel, the latter being dark. Neither of those two types are capable of switching into Meditite, of course. Zen Headbutt/Psycho Cut seems to be the sole reason why Meditite is able to muscle past Misdreavus, Flaming Bodies, and eviolite-less Spritzee. The former still having a chance to be 2KO'd (albeit, a small, small chance) at +Max defense; which is never going to be seen on a Misdreavus anyway.

This just leaves Psychic types; and while having a whole type resist both your STABs isn't exactly a good thing, the few pure psychic types are generally frail; the only one I'd trust to counter meditite being Solosis. (and possible drowzee.) While I don't necessarily think Meditite is unhealthy, and I'd love to see these psychics rise in usage, there is only little one can do to be prepared for meditite, bar shaky checks and getting lucky on a prediction.

 

[TUO]

Misdreavus and Fletchling are much faster and more threatening than Timburr and Croagunk, and are therefore notably more capable of pulling off a sweep, not simply revenging. +2 STAB Shadow Ball from a 19 Speed Pokemon and +2 STAB itemless Acrobatics backed by Gale Wings are disastrous. These are the types of common threats that Meditite is punished by. And you won't always have exactly what you need to stop them from tearing your team up at that point, just as Meditite won't always have what it needs in many cases. It's easy to say "Oh well I have this" in a thread where the actual limits and boundaries cannot be strictly defined like they are in battle when things are happening.

Timburr/Croagunk could only attempt to Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave Sneasel as revenge in your given example. +2 Misdreavus and +2 Fletchling murder whole teams.

Keep in mind the team support that you mentioned in your previous post tends to be ran with Meditite (Pawniard being the key one). Even if the loss of momentum happens after Meditite kills something, Meditite already killed something. I'm pretty sure that's quite an advantage that can trade off for a free switchin to Misdreavus or Fletchling, especially because it's not the safest thing in the world to setup on Meditite. Also, Meditite can do it again considering it resists SR, and has durability in Drain Punch. So after it kills something, it loses a little momentum, and then can just do that again. The only offensive threat that revenges Meditite where you say "I'm fucked" is when it's a Murkrow, but there's a reason for that :)

I'm not going to use pictures this time because apparently that causes people to disregard the content.



Baltoy can't really do much offensively and I already acknowledged that in this thread before people felt the need to tell me, like I didn't know. Meditite can only 2HKO Baltoy with Ice Punch or LO High Jump Kick, as it resists every single attack Meditite can think about carrying in the current metagame. What Baltoy is useful for is team support and/or disruption. It has access to Trick to cripple switch-ins that come in as Meditite flees. It also has access to dual screens (Reflect pretty much neutralizes Pure Power), Stealth Rock, and Rapid Spin.



Trick cripples setup sweepers such as Misdreavus and Scraggy that think they can come in freely to set up for a sweep, giving them a Choice item as they switch in and before they can act. If they decide to switch out, this gives Baltoy yet another free turn to use a support move. If they decide to kill off Baltoy instead, the player using Baltoy gets potentially another a free turn, and a ton of momentum and can bring in a Pokemon that resists or is immune to the move that the enemy is now locked into. This is a win-win situation if setup sweepers attempt to take advantage of Baltoy's presence once it gets in against Meditite, regardless of Baltoy having to faint in the process. Memento, for example, causes the user to faint in the process, but is a hell of a move that really shifts momentum. Same thing with Healing Wish. That principle also applies here.

Baltoy doesn't last forever and will eventually end up dying without accomplishing much damage-wise, but Trick and its support moves can be game-changers. It would be ignorant to call this sacrificing a Pokemon when its job isn't to live forever. It has many things it can do to help its team and punish the opponent, with the turn it gets as non-Life Orb Meditite flees. Now, if the Meditite in question is in fact Life Orb Meditite and does in fact hit Baltoy with High Jump Kick on the switch-in, it is ruined. But it must have those things and also select the right move in order to do so. Please note that I am not over here just pushing the shit out of Baltoy (I much prefer Wynaut, Elgyem, and Exeggcute), but I have used it to good effect thanks to Meditite's existence, and it is a great team supporter if used properly.


Solosis (105 base Special Attack) is a new potential Meditite counter I tried after speaking with Dracoyoshi8 on IRC, and it actually counters Meditite if it doesn't have Life Orb. It does basically the same thing as Elgyem, but its advantage over Elgyem is that it gets Regenerator like Slowpoke and can still resist both of Meditite's STABs without being weak to Thunder Punch like Slowpoke is. The catch is that Solosis is significantly less bulky than Elgyem and is 2HKOed by any elemental punch Life Orb Meditite uses. Elgyem is much better but Solosis can work against the Eviolite set perfectly and punish switch-ins with Thunder Wave or HP Fighting, as Elgyem also does.

Let me also reiterate that Elgyem (as well as Solosis) has Recover, which grants it the same advantages here as Slowpoke without being weak to Thunder Punch. Elgyem is actually a more reliable counter to Meditite than Slowpoke in the current meta because Meditite cannot hit it super effectively. Slowpoke has Regenerator and Scald over Elgyem, but Elgyem has Analytic, which makes its STAB Psychic sting like hell against even neutral targets, without even requiring Special Attack investment. People only say Elgyem sucks because they haven't tried it; it's true that it would be less viable without Meditite's existence but it forms a reliable core with Trubbish whether it faces Meditite or not. I'll be reiterating that in this post as well.



Also, keep in mind that by running Life Orb, Meditite is OHKOed by everything that Eviolite allows it to survive, and that list is quite extensive. This might not be that big of an issue for Meditite if it weren't so slow, but its defensive limitations do hold significant weight here in exchange for what it gains offensively by using Life Orb, and it gives an opponent plenty of opportunities for free damage or setup as it keeps having to switch out because of this.



Lots of Pokemon in Little Cup are subject to being revenged after they knock something out, so I'm not seeing what would make that unhealthy only in this situation; that is a part of Pokemon. By Meditite knocking a Pokemon out, it actually becomes an enabler for two of Little Cup's most threatening setup sweepers to come in and shift momentum.

Misdreavus and Fletchling are two prominent threats in Little Cup that would be prominent threats even if Meditite did not exist, which means they would be found on a good number of teams either way and also means they do not solely exist for revenging Meditite and are not forced onto teams because of Meditite. With that in consideration, Meditite killing something gives one of them the chance to come in afterward and immediately apply a ton of pressure, and this is especially true with Meditite's Life Orb set because it is guaranteed to die to Missy's Shadow Ball or Fletchling's Gale Wings Acrobatics if it stays in. If it thinks about switching out here to be safe, that comes with letting Misdreavus get a free Nasty Plot boost or letting Fletchling get a free Swords Dance boost. Both of these Pokemon severely punish Meditite's existence in this manner and can quite possibly come back and score two or three KOs to Meditite's one as a result.

One might say "Well a smart player isn't going to kill something with Meditite while an opposing Missy or Fletch is alive and in good health so this won't happen for good players".

Well, anyone with an idealism like this that defines how Meditite should be played is already acknowledging the limitations and consequences I just pointed out.

"Don't kill anything with Meditite until Missy and Fletch are dead" translates to "Meditite is held back by common threats and requires help from teammates in order to be effective".

First of all, I don't think it's justified to run a Pokemon for having (insert utility move here) and being able to deal with a prominent mon. You are saying Meditite is manageable but bringing up niche counters that have way too much problems to be effective? (Bar Exceggute and Solosis, two pretty ok mons, and elygem yeah) Can I just run something like Woobat for the sake of switching into Meditite and doing a bit of damage or setting up a screen or two? If that's so there's Shieldon too so I guess Murkrow has counters, and since Shieldon works with Spritzee well Shieldon can keep the longevity. I just don't see the logic in some of these counters you are mentioning.

Then in the case of Misdreavus and Fletchling, Meditite can still kill a poke with Misdreauvs and Fletchling in the game, simply by getting a free switch either from a dead pokemon, or switching into a fighting-type move, and doing massive damage to the opp mon, more often than not killing it. Misdreavus and Fletchling just force it out after it kills something, soo Meditie can still do its job with Missy and Fletch around, just not alive. IT's not like Fletch/Missy hardwall it or anything

 

[chimp]

First of all, I don't think it's justified to run a Pokemon for having (insert utility move here) and being able to deal with a prominent mon. You are saying Meditite is manageable but bringing up niche counters that have way too much problems to be effective? (Bar Exceggute and Solosis, two pretty ok mons) Can I just run something like Woobat for the sake of switching into Meditite and doing a bit of damage or setting up a screen or two? If that's so there's Shieldon too so I guess Murkrow has counters, and since Shieldon works with Spritzee well Shieldon can keep the longevity. I just don't see the logic in some of these counters you are mentioning.

Then in the case of Misdreavus and Fletchling, Meditite can still kill a poke with Misdreauvs and Fletchling in the game, simply by getting a free switch either from a dead pokemon, or switching into a fighting-type move, and doing massive damage to the opp mon, more often than not killing it. Misdreavus and Fletchling just force it out after it kills something, soo Meditie can still do its job with Missy and Fletch around, just not alive. IT's not like Fletch/Missy hardwall it or anything

Briyella's point in bringing up pokemon, such as Baltoy, is that these pokemon are good in their own rights. Remember in the Tangela era, where people would run Goomy just to wall tang. Aside from that, Goomy is just awful, with no notable niches in offensive, defensive, or supportive roles; so it was deadweight against anything other than tangela.

Baltoy, for example, is not like goomy. It can support its team with SR or Rapid Spin or Dual Screens, so its not a liability should meditite not appear on your enemy's team. Therefore, you don't really have to manage your team around a deadweight mon just to counter meditite. It may be an inconvenience, but thats not inherently a bad thing.

 

[macle]

honeslty baltoy, solosis, elgyem are all pokemon that i wouldn't touch with a 12 foot pole and bringing them up just makes me thing how bad meditite would be if i have to use trash like that.

 

[Caledrith]

Elgyem is a legitimate pokemon in a world that doesn't contain Pawniard.

 

[absdaddy]

Elgyem is a legitimate pokemon in a world that doesn't contain Pawniard.

...making it irrelevant since Pawniard is pretty much everywhere

 

[chimp]

Thats a perfectly legitimate point. If only there were more competent psychics. Honestly slowpoke and solosis are the only ones I can think of and they are only meh in the current meta. Psychic + Fighting coverage is ridiculous because of that.

 

[gali]

I'd just like to point out that Shieldon is not a counter to Murkrow; if the Murkrow user so desires, they can always opt to run HP Ground. This actually raises an issue in the debate surrounding Meditite's most common defensive counters: Is it worth it to run a niche covervage move on Meditite just to beat a specific wall that would otherwise beat it? Take Honedge for example. Unless Meditite runs Fire Punch, Honedge completely walls Meditite. However, the coverage that Fire Punch provides is only relevant to Honedge (and Exeggcute I guess, but Poison Jab is probably better in that situation.) This raises a question: is Honedge common enough to warrant Meditite running a coverage move which only provides coverage against Honedge, just to beat it? To add a bit of context, running Fire Punch means that Meditite loses to Spritzee, Slowpoke, and Wynaut, and this question also applies to each of these Pokemon and Meditite's respective moves for dealing with each of them.

 

[sparktrain]

I'd just like to point out that Shieldon is not a counter to Murkrow; if the Murkrow user so desires, they can always opt to run HP Ground. This actually raises an issue in the debate surrounding Meditite's most common defensive counters: Is it worth it to run a niche covervage move on Meditite just to beat a specific wall that would otherwise beat it? Take Honedge for example. Unless Meditite runs Fire Punch, Honedge completely walls Meditite. However, the coverage that Fire Punch provides is only relevant to Honedge (and Exeggcute I guess, but Poison Jab is probably better in that situation.) This raises a question: is Honedge common enough to warrant Meditite running a coverage move which only provides coverage against Honedge, just to beat it? To add a bit of context, running Fire Punch means that Meditite loses to Spritzee, Slowpoke, and Wynaut, and this question also applies to each of these Pokemon and Meditite's respective moves for dealing with each of them.

Whether or not it's worth it is a bit beside the point (personally, I've never run Fire Punch on Meditite, because it's a lot simpler to just have a team mate that can deal with Honedge), the issue is that it can bypass these counters if it so chooses. Here are Meditite's moveset statistics from the suspect test:

Drain Punch 89.079%
Bullet Punch 71.737
Psycho Cut 63.753%
Thunder Punch 40.138%
Fake Out 39.022%
Zen Headbutt 23.326%
High Jump Kick 22.657%
Ice Punch 14.563%
Poison Jab 12.733%
Trick 7.940%
Other 15.050%

Drain Punch 94.851%
Bullet Punch 69.925%
Psycho Cut 68.430%
Thunder Punch 41.978%
Fake Out 36.333%
Zen Headbutt 24.644%
High Jump Kick 17.446%
Poison Jab 17.357%
Trick 16.116%
Other 12.921%

Fire Punch didn't even make the list in any of these cases, so you could say something like "Honedge counters Meditite, like around 90% of the time..." but not "Honedge counters Meditite." That's not exactly encouraging to tell someone that's considering Honedge for a team. "Spritzee can switch into Tite, you just gotta hope it's not running LO Zen Heabutt or Poison Jab." "Solosis counters Tite w/out Life Orb." "Exeggcute counters Meditite that aren't running a move that hits it SE." See what I'm getting at?

Meditite has no 100% reliable counters no matter which way you look at it.

I acknowledge that it has perfectly viable checks in Fletchling and Misdreavus, but as prem stated, if you're solely relying on checking it, that implies something died, which is unhealthy.

One thing I'd like to point out that Meditite is an excellent user of Choice Scarf, and that hasn't been addressed nearly as much in this thread, which is kind of a shame. In fact, Choice Scarf Tite has gotten consistently more usage than Life Orb Tite according to the LC suspect test stats, not to mention the regular LC stats. In my recent ladder matches with Scarf Tite, if I see something that's a blatantly obvious Meditite counter/switch-in on the other team (e.g. Solosis, Elgyem, Honedge, Baltoy...) it's really easy to just bring Meditite in on something it forces out, and trick the scarf onto the switch-in. The scarf is very crippling since all of these mons are extremely slow; you aren't going to be worried about Physically Defensive Elgyem sweeping your team with its newfound 13 speed (or 10 speed with min IVs and Relaxed).

Meditite can smash a large majority of the tier while healing itself almost completely in the process (a trait other hard hitters like Cranidos and Gastly don't possess), its bulk and speed are far from bad blarajan "Jolly Meditite is the bee's fucking knees.", and Meditite "counters" aren't 100% safe from being potentially bypassed or crippled. Think about that.

 

[boo836]

These comments on Misdreavus and Fletchling sweeping teams is hurting my brain, considering that any good team will certainly have ways around them. While the same can easily apply to Tite and Krow, Misdreavus hardly "sweeps teams" these days, with Pawniards and common scarfers running around everywhere. Lots of people pack Houndour, Porygon, Pawniard, ect because they aren't just good checks to amazing Pokemon, but are extremely useful for other reasons. In the case of Meditite, it kills something, leaves when your opponent switches in a set-up mon, and comes back in to wreck more shit. Unless the set up sweeper is a win condition (Missy and Fletch aren't), or you're using Murkrow, you've likely got a whole whack of checks to those Pokemon.

I don't see people running Houndour JUST for Missy, nor do I see people running Elgyem for anything outside of going for Meditite. Elgyem might have limited application, but it's hardly worth using most of the time. Drowsee is just terrible. So, can we please stop suggesting random crap like Drowsee and Elgyem as serious answers to Tite? Furthermore, can we stop saying that Tite loses momentum? When it kills something, it almost always gains you momentum. When you bring in something like Missy, you have the potential to lose any momentum you cold have gained. Besides that, Pass Tite really screws over any checks that come in with another Pokemon with massive offensive presence that screws its check over (Murkrow, SD Pawniard, Tirtouga, Scraggy, Wynaut, ect).

 

[Lord Alphose]

These comments on Misdreavus and Fletchling sweeping teams is hurting my brain, considering that any good team will certainly have ways around them. While the same can easily apply to Tite and Krow, Misdreavus hardly "sweeps teams" these days, with Pawniards and common scarfers running around everywhere. Lots of people pack Houndour, Porygon, Pawniard, ect because they aren't just good checks to amazing Pokemon, but are extremely useful for other reasons. In the case of Meditite, it kills something, leaves when your opponent switches in a set-up mon, and comes back in to wreck more shit. Unless the set up sweeper is a win condition (Missy and Fletch aren't), or you're using Murkrow, you've likely got a whole whack of checks to those Pokemon.

I don't see people running Houndour JUST for Missy, nor do I see people running Elgyem for anything outside of going for Meditite. Elgyem might have limited application, but it's hardly worth using most of the time. Drowsee is just terrible. So, can we please stop suggesting random crap like Drowsee and Elgyem as serious answers to Tite? Furthermore, can we stop saying that Tite loses momentum? When it kills something, it almost always gains you momentum. When you bring in something like Missy, you have the potential to lose any momentum you cold have gained. Besides that, Pass Tite really screws over any checks that come in with another Pokemon with massive offensive presence that screws its check over (Murkrow, SD Pawniard, Tirtouga, Scraggy, Wynaut, ect).

That's pretty much what I'm seeing. Goddess Briyella demonstrated that Elgyem aptly stops Meditite dead in it's tracks. There really is no argument against her proof. But nobody is willing to run Elgyem to stop. How often do any of us actually see that Pokemon used by anyone but someone new who is only using Pokemon that they always thought looked cool? And most of the other "counters" suggested can be crippled, as Sparktrain suggested. Meditite is unhealthy to the metagame as it is too difficult to stop, without taking one of the precious six slots to be filled with niche Pokemon.

 

[ryan]

The thing about it is that it's not as simple as just "run one niche Pokemon, and you have Meditite covered." I realize that a Pokemon shouldn't be considered broken because it's deadly with support, but when you consider that pretty much every solid check to Meditite is weak to Pursuit and one of the most common Pokemon in the metagame is a powerful Dark-type that has access to the move, it's really hard not to take it into account. Even if you do run an obscure, niche Pokemon in order to try to keep it in check, the odds that your check will be boned by Pawniard are relatively high.

And even without considering Pursuit support, it's not like Meditite is useless when the opponent has a bulky Psychic-type Pokemon. It can still pick things off with priority. With hazard support, it can wear down its own checks throughout the battle by forcing them to come in repeatedly. If you're able to get off a decent hit on a check, you can finish it off pretty easily because lol what's a resistance when you've got so much Attack.

The list of things that can defensively check Meditite is extremely low. The list of offensive checks is higher because 15 or 16 Speed, while definitely not bad, is still easy to take advantage of. And the list of counters is pretty much nil. I'm sure that defensive Elgyem and fucking Drowzee and Mime Jr. can take hits from Meditite. But outside of that, what do these Pokemon actually do? If you have to run something solely to check one Pokemon, and it contributes nothing in terms of team support or offensive presence, it becomes pretty evident that the thing you're trying to check has gotten out of hand.

Plus, Meditite being banned would pave the way for Bunnelby. What's there not to love?

 

[jas61292]

Ok, so I meant to post a lot earlier but never really got around to it. Anyways, overall, I'm actually not convinced at all that either of these two Pokemon are broken. Both are extrememly powerful, don't get me wrong, but broken? I'm not so sure. Murkrow is obviously a very powerful and fast Pokemon, with a nice movepool to go along with it. However, it is fairly frail, and has to rely completely on substitutes and speed to survive it doesn't help that the only attack making it super strong deals a good chunk of recoil to itself. It can do a ton, sure, but if it is going to be as offensively threatening as it can, I don't really feel it is that hard to beat, and if it goes some less offensive route, I don't think it has the pure power to be considered broken. Meditite, on the other hand, has all the power to always be ridiculous. However, it is not that fast, and, while it has priority, none of it packs STAB, so is not too incredible. The main quality that puts it into a discussion such as this is the coverage that pretty much makes it uncounterable. But I don't think that the fact that you can't have a sure counter for it makes it broken. Each set it runs will miss out on some things, and it can definitely be outran and killed by multiple pokemon, such as Misdreavus (and of course Murkrow). Definitely a top tier pokemon, but I'm just not sold on it being broke.

Now, as for the other non-broken related criterion asked about in the OP, I do not think that Meditite makes the game less fun, or makes people not want to play it. Its a very powerful pokemon, but power by itself, if anything is fun. Unlike with the last suspect test where I would hear plenty of people all over talk about Gligar being stupid and making the tier bad and stuff, I don't really hear anything like that any more (except possible about berry juice, but that is not a suspect this time). Same thing with Murkrow, regarding people not playing. However, unlike with Meditite, I will concede that Murkrow does make the tier less fun. Maybe its just because of prankster, but facing Murkrow can just be infuriating. Frankly, for me personally, that is more about Berry Juice on it (which pisses me off on everything), but it also has to do with things like Thunder Wave and Thief crippling things that might otherwise be a fine switch, and you having no way to know before hand if it will have them or not. Again, I don't think it is broken, but it is utterly infuriating, and if that is a reason to ban, and the OP suggests, I would certainly have no problem with it.

 

[ryan]

Relying on Substitutes and Speed isn't an issue when the only Pokemon in the tier that outspeed you get boned by Sucker Punch (and suck) and when you literally 2HKO the entire tier. Meditite is hardly slow, and it can 2HKO every viable Pokemon in the metagame besides Wynaut (which is a stretch to say that it's viable; if Meditite wasn't a thing, it wouldn't be).

But why am I even getting caught up in this. I'm leaving before people talk to me more.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

honeslty baltoy, solosis, elgyem are all pokemon that i wouldn't touch with a 12 foot pole and bringing them up just makes me thing how bad meditite would be if i have to use trash like that.

Elgyem is a legitimate pokemon in a world that doesn't contain Pawniard.

Thats a perfectly legitimate point. If only there were more competent psychics. Honestly slowpoke and solosis are the only ones I can think of and they are only meh in the current meta. Psychic + Fighting coverage is ridiculous because of that.

Elgyem + Trubbish core beats Meditite + Mienfoo + Pawniard.

You can decide not to use or not to try out Elgyem, but that is a personal choice and does not disprove the fact that Elgyem and Trubbish beat these Pokemon when used together. I have already demonstrated this in posts and battle replays and it is not something that's only possible with prediction. They win. They are a self-sustaining core with Recover and Berry Juice/Recycle that covers each other's weaknesses, brings down these prominent threats, and does it very well. This is not a gimmick.

Eviolite Meditite, the most common/viable set, will lose. Life Orb Meditite has an 11.3% chance to 2HKO Elgyem with High Jump Kick, and Elgyem has Recover and Thunder Wave. It's Meditite that will require luck to win here, not Elgyem. If you don't want to use it, you can't say you made that decision because it's bad because it accomplishes a very important thing by beating these Pokemon when paired with Trubbish. Is Elgyem useless against the rest of the tier? I wouldn't say so, not with Recover for reliable healing and Thunder Wave for parahaxing and slowing down enemies, which Porygon also uses, except Porygon is weak to Fighting and Elgyem is resistant (and is also resistant to Psychic), and Elgyem takes neutral hits pretty well too. HP Fighting demolishes Pawniard, and being paralyzed doesn't let it use Knock Off on Elgyem before dying to it. It's also safe to say that the switches caused by Trubbish (Mienfoo is walled and Pawniard fears Drain Punch) will mean a good one or two layers at least of Spikes will be in play for its team.

Stop saying or implying that Solosis is better than Elgyem too. The only thing Solosis has over Elgyem is Regenerator but it can spam Recover until its active foe gets parahaxed anyway. Slowpoke can win too but it's weak to Thunder Punch whereas Elgyem and Solosis cannot be hit super effectively by Meditite at all.

Oh wait, Elgyem can also spam Recover until Meditite gets parahaxed, and only has an 11.3% of being 2HKOed by Life Orb High Jump Kick (also providing it doesn't miss, ouch!), so with that in consideration, can Life Orb Meditite really be relied on to beat Elgyem in this manner? It's already 100% certain that Eviolite Meditite will lose.

I recommend using Elgyem over all the others except maybe Wynaut, but to call Elgyem "trash" or "something that would only be good if Pawniard didn't exist" or "something I would never resort to because it sucks" ...these statements are not only arbitrary but are also completely untrue. If you fail to realize that because you haven't tried it or have already made the decision that you won't, just remember you can't say you came to that conclusion because it's bad. And as I said, simple statements like "yea but it sucks" are too dismissive and not insightful enough to make a point, especially when the proof has been here that it's a legit Pokemon, and the core it forms with Trubbish would be solid even if Meditite didn't exist. Meditite only makes it shine brighter because of its STAB combination.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-106918857
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-106931958

 

[Rowan]

Although Briyella is bringing up some questionable mons, I think there's quite a long list of mons that may make slightly more shaky counters, but are certainly extremely solid checks that can piss off Meditite and even switch into it most of the time. Larvesta, Ponyta, Misdreavus, Honedge, Slowpoke, Elgyem (who actually isn't bad: solosis and baltoy are), Spritzee, Cottonee, Growlithe, Snubbull, Wynaut. Not to mention more things can revenge kill it like all the bird pokemon. I just never find it to be that restricting in teambuilding so that I could have a team with 2 decentish switchins and more checks without even taking Meditite into consideration. Just a core of like... 2 of these mons is usually enough: I've use a team with just Cottonee+Misdreavus, 2 Fighting-weak mons and a Psychic weak mon and Meditite's never been a problem.

 

[Brambane]

I have used Elgyem + Trubbish (as well as Solosis + Trubbish, which I personally prefer). I have also used Drowzee and Baltoy to see how they fair. Drowzee was okayish, but super easy to play around. Words cannot express how bad Baltoy is in the current metagame. But I think a lot of the hate Elgyem getting is actually kind of unfair. It is not a terrible Pokemon, to be honest. It hits pretty hard for an uninvested Pokemon and is REALLY good at punishing bad switches. Hitting Murkrow with Thunder Wave on the switch is the fucking tits. Solosis is in a similar boat, albeit trading some bulk for Regenerator and hitting harder against slower/paralyzed Pokemon, which is relevant when you carry Thunder Wave.

But the point I must emphasize is that Elgyem + Trubbish core CAN beat Meditite + Mienfoo + Pawniard. Using this core is not a 100% guarantee that you are going to beat those three mons. It does do well against them, but its not a complete safeguard.

Also, from my experience playing against it, I am finding this core is somewhat lacking when you aren't against Meditite. I'm not sure if this is because not facing Meditite actually puts this core at a disadvantage or if I am just making the best plays of my life. I hope for a bigger sample size.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Also, from my experience playing against it, I am finding this core is somewhat lacking when you aren't against Meditite. I'm not sure if this is because not facing Meditite actually puts this core at a disadvantage or if I am just making the best plays of my life. I hope for a bigger sample size.

It functions like Porygon. :)

It just has less special bulk, but its STAB is a lot stronger than Porygon's and it's actually super effective on stuff. Porygon deals with Misdreavus a ton better though, obviously, whereas Elgyem's a ton better at dealing with Meditite. Those are the main differences.

 

[blarajan]

Pursuit is kind of a blower, regardless. Pursuit Pawniard > Elgyem because even if you CAN tank a Knock Off, you really don't want to. And if you DO take the Knock Off, you can't check Meditite anymore. So when it Pursuits, Meditite smashes it on the next switch in regardless. That's really my biggest problem with the Meditite counters. Granted, you do check it in oodles of ways with different Pokemon (Fairies, birds, etc) but the only bona fide counters are Pursuit bait like such a mother fucker, which is not the greatest quality when one of the best Pokemon in the tier is also a Dark-type with the ability to force out each and every one of them and Pursuit them on the switch if it is so inclined. Yes, you CAN HP Fighting or Thunder Wave or whatever you were going to do to them but really, if you want to actually beat Meditite, you aren't leaving in your Psychic type on a Pawniard.