Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

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I can't decide
Gonna sit on the fence
On one hand, baton pass is pretty skill-less
On the other hand if the player using the baton pass team has no skill he is easily defeated by special set up sweepers
If someone gives me a very good argue men on one side
Nah Keep Baton Pass
Battling again it lately and the cockiness of the players have gone up. Most of them suck and promptly get punished by a +6 thunderbolt from thundurus
 

Andrew

beep boop
is a Top Artist Alumnus
I say we just nerf it. BP has already reached it's peak, as seen in the variations of Denissss' team, and it's forcing the metagame to try to revolve around it. We may say "adapt, improvise, and overcome" , but it sounds a lot like "get gud", and honestly BP doesn't have to do anything else to get better. Why should the rest of the metagame have to "evolve and adapt" when BP doesn't?
 
I say we just nerf it. BP has already reached it's peak, as seen in the variations of Denissss' team, and it's forcing the metagame to try to revolve around it. We may say "adapt, improvise, and overcome" , but it sounds a lot like "get gud", and honestly BP doesn't have to do anything else to get better. Why should the rest of the metagame have to "evolve and adapt" when BP doesn't?
Baton Pass teams are what the "rest of the metagame" would be adapting to deal with.
 
I say we just nerf it. BP has already reached it's peak, as seen in the variations of Denissss' team, and it's forcing the metagame to try to revolve around it. We may say "adapt, improvise, and overcome" , but it sounds a lot like "get gud", and honestly BP doesn't have to do anything else to get better. Why should the rest of the metagame have to "evolve and adapt" when BP doesn't?
Because that's how metagames work. Something overpowered comes, players learn how to counter it, the metagame evolves. Every competitive game works like this.
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
The problem with the argument that "nothing should auto-win against BP" is that there are far too many teams that auto-lose to it. There is literally no other playstyle that is auto-win against so many other standard OU teams while simultaneously being mindless and formulaic. Why should we allow this "evolved metagame" to be so one-sided? Regardless, the point I made earlier still stands: Baton Pass teams are not generally popular enough for them to be considered, in my opinion, a natural metagame shift. They are an outlier in the meta that causes most teams to auto-lose to them. Do I expect people to be able to use a single Pokemon to completely counter an entire playstyle? Normally no, but when it comes to Baton Pass, there is no such thing as auto-win, but a majority of teams considered good by the normal margins of the metagame WILL auto-lose.
 

Andrew

beep boop
is a Top Artist Alumnus
Baton Pass teams are what the "rest of the metagame" would be adapting to deal with.
Right, and while the rest of the metagame tries to adapt to it, BP just sits back and keeps accumulating it's defensive boosts without a care in the world. It has adapted to counter almost any threat, but the rest of the metagame hasn't caught up to it - although I've seen so many replays of Baton Pass teams getting demolished by fairly standard teams, or teams that chose to run multiple taunt users or Rain HO. Maybe the metagame is already evolving to counter it due to the increased popularity due to this discussion process. Do you guys think that BP will die down if/when it becomes less effective, or will it remain a dominant force?
 
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Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Right, and while the rest of the metagame tries to adapt to it, BP just sits back and keeps accumulating it's defensive boosts without a care in the world. It has adapted to counter almost any threat, but the rest of the metagame hasn't caught up to it - although I've seen so many replays of Baton Pass teams getting demolished by fairly standard teams, or teams that chose to run multiple taunt users or Rain HO. Maybe the metagame is already evolving to counter it due to the increased popularity due to this 'suspect process'. Do you guys think that BP will die down if/when it becomes less effective, or will it remain a dominant force?
BP will never die down, and it's not hard to see why. I mean, if you think about it, BP sees most of its use during suspect tests. Ever wonder why that is? It;s because it is a quick and easy way to score wins even against players much more skilled than you, making it the perfect laddering tool. Add on to this the fact that it is largely still a niche style and you'll realize that the metagame will never adapt to it. In turn, BP will never die down.
 

Andrew

beep boop
is a Top Artist Alumnus
BP will never die down, and it's not hard to see why. I mean, if you think about it, BP sees most of its use during suspect tests. Ever wonder why that is? It;s because it is a quick and easy way to score wins even against players much more skilled than you, making it the perfect laddering tool. Add on to this the fact that it is largely still a niche style and you'll realize that the metagame will never adapt to it. In turn, BP will never die down.
I agree that it's easy to win with lol, I went from 1000 to ~1780 on an alt using Baton Pass in about 24 hrs. I guess the fact that most people frown on it, and don't want to use it will relegate it to the 'outlier', so it will never become mainstream but that 10% of the time you'll just be auto-loosing to it because it's not reasonable to prepare for in the long run. It really angers me that when I was testing BP almost half my battles were forfeits within the first few turns. Also I feel a little bit brain dead now :V
 
Thanks for deleting my post Haunter. I was about to delete it anyway. Maybe GameFreak will nerf BP next gen. Anyway, I believe that BP will slowly lag behind. BP only has a certain number of users while those pokemon that don't learn BP are much more. That is why I believe that the metagame will adapt to BP
 

haunter

Banned deucer.
Those who say that the metagame will adapt to full Baton Pass teams should provide some concrete examples of how this is supposed to happen. Do you believe that every team will start running Haze Quagsire (and lol Murkrow)? Do you think Imprison Musharna is actually viable? Please elaborate. Saying that the metagame will adapt to Baton Pass means absolutely nothing if you're not explaining how that's going to happen.

Also, it should be noted that forcing the metagame to adapt to a given strategy/Pokémon is acceptable only until a certain degree. We could unban Kyogre and force the metagame to adapt to it by runnning subpar Pokémon like Ludiclolo, Parasect and Gastrodon. Does this mean that we should unban Kyogre? If adapting to a certain threat means being forced to run obscure/niche Pokémon, then that's a clue that that given threat is probably unhealthy for the metagame.

If you really think that adapting to Baton Pass is possible without having to completely twist a team, then please explain how.

EDIT: references to Quagsire/Musharna were merely illustrative.
 
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Rotosect

Banned deucer.
The problem is you're not even giving the metagame a chance to adapt.
Right now Vaporeon is barely in UU range, meaning full baton pass teams are not nearly as common as this thread might imply.
The "If I dedicate a full team slot to counter an entire playstyle then the rest of the ladder will roflstomp my team" argument is a slipperly slope that gets thrown around whenever a new dominant playstyle shows up. Can we at least wait until full BP teams are in OU range? At that point it will be obvious they can't be countered without having issues with other teams, but until then I see no reason to jump to conclusions so early.
 
BP will never die down, and it's not hard to see why. I mean, if you think about it, BP sees most of its use during suspect tests. Ever wonder why that is? It;s because it is a quick and easy way to score wins even against players much more skilled than you, making it the perfect laddering tool. Add on to this the fact that it is largely still a niche style and you'll realize that the metagame will never adapt to it. In turn, BP will never die down.
Bp is only a niche style because people refuse to accept it as a legit style. That's not bp's fault, that is the community's.

You are already deciding what you want the metagame to be and then banning stuff to make the metagame go in the direction you want. It's like you are biased against bp before even trying to discuss it.

That's just wrong.
 
@Haunter:Strong special attackers that can deal with sylveon will appear. As well as powerful mixed attackers that will attack you based on which stat is weaker. Everything has flaws. If we use Pokemon to take advantage if them we will beat Baton Pass. For example last generation Gastrodon was only used for its ability to beat rain teams. And Quagsire is used only to beat set-up sweepers even though it's defensive stats are sub-par.
 

haunter

Banned deucer.
Rotosect, for the last time: we aren't banning anything right now. We're just discussing possible future ways to make full Baton Pass teams more manageable. Emphasis on "possible" and "future".
 
The problem is you're not even giving the metagame a chance to adapt.
Right now Vaporeon is barely in UU range, meaning full baton pass teams are not nearly as common as this thread might imply.
The "If I dedicate a full team slot to counter an entire playstyle then the rest of the ladder will roflstomp my team" argument is a slipperly slope that gets thrown around whenever a new dominant playstyle shows up. Can we at least wait until full BP teams are in OU range? At that point it will be obvious they can't be countered without having issues with other teams, but until then I see no reason to jump to conclusions so early.
BP has been around in full force since BW (some argue even way before that, from ADV) and has been used in gen 6 both to gain suspect reqs, top the ladder and in official tournaments (poor Valentine got all his cards cancelled after that).

I believe that qualifies BP to be in OU range and beyond. I would really like and others as well to see how would teams of other playstyles comfortably win against BP without going out of their way and as we say, play with 5 pokemon in all other matches.

Edit: Here you go, some team styles to contemplate about:

Stall
Balance
Bulky Offense
HO
Weather
Trick Room
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Bp is only a niche style because people refuse to accept it as a legit style. That's not bp's fault, that is the community's.

You are already deciding what you want the metagame to be and then banning stuff to make the metagame go in the direction you want. It's like you are biased against bp before even trying to discuss it.

That's just wrong.
I'm not going to let you pretend like I haven't already explained exactly why I (and every other seriously player since gen 3) has dismissed BP as niche, cheap, and uncompetitive strategy. Read the post before the one you quoted. Read my post around page 20. And in case it's too much for you to understand, I'll break it down for you: it is more matchup reliant than any other playstyle (even weather last gen wasn't this bad, and weather was broken as fuck), there are no true counters to BP that it can't stop with teambuilding choices, and the best checks to BP do not naturally fit into the metagame. If you disagree with this, that's fine. Prove to me through concrete evidence that these statements are not true, not your useless, lower-ladder theorymonning.
 
What¡s the difference between Gen V and Gen VI Baton Pass? Fairy types and Scolipede. The former aren't a problem: Mr. Mime is as frail as fuck, specially physically and it's only inmune to Roar and Sylveon is great but unstoppable. This means with Scolipede with Speed Boosts.

Speed Boost has been an ability that has buffed the viaility of a lot of pokemon and caused the ban of Blaziken in the first place.

In Baton Pass teams, the presence of Speed Boost makes those teams an edge because they get a way to give boosts. Use protect on turn 1 and Substitute on turn 2 and the majority of the time you are at 82% o health and almost nothing can't stop you (talonflame is one of the few exceptions).

Without Spped Boost you need Rock Polish or Agility in your team to pass speed making Protect Suyb passing useless and having to active pass (meanign you take damage in the process).

Without Speed Boost I don't think BP are uncompetitive anymore. The funny part is that we can have Eeveelution teams (I consider those with 5 or even 4) that are OU viable.
 
So explain to me what's required to be broken. I've been arguing that scolipede and espeon ARE broken for the support they give.

Blaziken, Mega Gengar, and Genesect were all banned, at least partially, for elements not purely offensive (and certainly not defensive).

Blaziken obviously could, but the other two couldn't sweep teams or break unbeatable walls. They were banned for making situations that were uncompetitive (the momentum genesect gives, and clearing the way for a win the condition).

So, is it the lack of offensive element? Is it the fact that only this one specific team is made OP by it? Or do we just not understand support yet (because the second two bans took a lot of convincing to get the majority behind)?
Scoliopede and Espeon themselves do not create a unhealthy meta or they do not make it uncomopetitive they are a part of a certain playstyle that makes them so called 'Broken' .Scoliopede and Espeon are not only limited to BP teams they are used in other playstyles as well.
I agree with the fact that they are "broken" when used on baton pass teams,but banning them like Mega Gengar,Blaziken & Genesect would not be just as Espeon and Scoliopede do not wreak havoc outside of baton pass teams a potential nerf would work but not a ban.
 
I love how the argument is that because baton pass cannot be entirely annihilated by every poke with any strategy it should be banned. No one seems to want to actually admit that there are counters because they don't give a guaranteed win against baton pass. Everyone in the thread wants some god Pokemon to come down and completely stop baton pass in every way. The top player on the ladder doesn't have many counters either to their team, should we ban that team too? There's no surefire counter so it must be OP and should be banned.
The top team on the ladder is BP

What I have noticed after 40+ pages is that the general consensus on beating BP is to win in the first 5 turns, or its auto-lose. This almost goes against the ebb and flow of a pokemon match, bringing a counter in and taking it out in response to a new threat (or y'know, predicting if your prediction game is stronk). If all matches had to be finished in ~5 turns, doesn't that imply that BP is not only heavily matchup reliant and only requires "skill" (I am using this term very, and I mean very, lightly) in the beginning turns? This in turn reflects that BP, by nature, is uncompetetive.

EDIT: Another point i want to make is that BP restricts teambuilding, one of the defining reasons mons have been suspected in the past. There are ~10 possible mons for use on BP and there are ~5 "counters" (again, using this term very lightly) to BP. in total there are ~15 "viable" mons in a BP metagame, food for thought.
 
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In my opinion Baton Pass teams are to be allowed to remain as is: by now it has been proven that there are multiple ways to keep offensive pressure on the team, under which it will break. It is unfair to argue that a Baton Pass team cannot be defeated without a specific counter once it sets up, for this applies to any tactic that relies on setup. The counterside to this is that the Pokémon on a full Baton Pass team are very vulnerable during the first few turns of the match.

As for defensive teams, I do realize that those lack the immediate offensive capabilities to stop a full defensive Baton Pass team from setting up, but I believe that answers will be found, for if the team can play around Espeon and Ingrain, it can hinder its opponent severely.

4 Atk Mandibuzz Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 224-266 (82.3 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.

Just an idea: Mandibuzz. Obviously it will not win the match against Baton Pass by itself, but it can use Taunt to stop the usual Scolipede lead, and will make an opponent think twice before they send in Espeon. Mandibuzz has access to U-Turn, which not only inflicts decent damage to Espeon if it comes in, but allows for a instant switch to a more appropriate counter when Sylveon is brought out.

I won't deny that a defensive playstyle like stall always has a disadvantage against full Baton Pass teams, but this is no reason to nerf Baton Pass: what leads us to decide that stall is to remain viable at the cost of full Baton Pass teams? As I said I think that both balanced and offensive teams have the tools to defeat Baton Pass without much issue.
 
4 Atk Mandibuzz Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 224-266 (82.3 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.

Just an idea: Mandibuzz. Obviously it will not win the match against Baton Pass by itself, but it can use Taunt to stop the usual Scolipede lead, and will make an opponent think twice before they send in Espeon. Mandibuzz has access to U-Turn, which not only inflicts decent damage to Espeon if it comes in, but allows for a instant switch to a more appropriate counter when Sylveon is brought out.
Espeon in BP will most likely have 252, 252+ stat spread and most likely have +2 Def so

4 Atk Mandibuzz Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Espeon: 146-174 (43.7 - 52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Espeon: 74-90 (22.1 - 26.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Check? I think not.
 
Espeon in BP will most likely have 252, 252+ stat spread and most likely have +2 Def so

4 Atk Mandibuzz Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Espeon: 146-174 (43.7 - 52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Espeon: 74-90 (22.1 - 26.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Check? I think not.
If Espeon has the 56 speed EVs needed to outspeed standard Whimsicott, there is a chance that standard Mandibuzz will 2HKO (Foul Play will inflict similar damage); furthermore I don't see why Mandibuzz wouldn't just use a little attack investment to bring down a giant threat to a defensive team, or to at least have a good chance to break Espeon's substitute with U-Turn.

I am aware that the alternative I gave is not the best solution to the problem, but Mandibuzz is an example of a common Pokémon that will make the match against a Baton Pass team easier with only a slight alteration to its standard set/spread: the anti-ban side hopes for the metagame to adapt to the new threat of Baton Pass, and this is just one example of the many possible outcomes.
 

Albacore

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So explain to me what's required to be broken. I've been arguing that scolipede and espeon ARE broken for the support they give.

Blaziken, Mega Gengar, and Genesect were all banned, at least partially, for elements not purely offensive (and certainly not defensive).

Blaziken obviously could, but the other two couldn't sweep teams or break unbeatable walls. They were banned for making situations that were uncompetitive (the momentum genesect gives, and clearing the way for a win the condition).

So, is it the lack of offensive element? Is it the fact that only this one specific team is made OP by it? Or do we just not understand support yet (because the second two bans took a lot of convincing to get the majority behind)?
I'm glad you brought this point up, because I actually bought into it for a while. If Scoliopede and Espeon are broken as BP supporters, is the same way as, say, Mega-Lucario is broken as a sweeper, should we not ban them? Of course, you cold use them outside of BP, with a different set, and they wouldn't be broken, but couldn't you use Mega-Lucario as a phyical wall and have that not be broken?
After thinking about it, I think there are two main reasons for this :

- There is only one BP team. Some Pokemon are broken on Stall without being broken on Hyper Offense and vice-versa. But it's difficult to treat Baton Pass as an entire playstyle when there's only one viable Baton Pass team. Banning Espeon and Scoliopede solely for there role on a team that is broken in its entirety seems like a waste of a Pokemon, especially since that team is radically diffeent form any other team. I'm not sure if we would have banned Mega-Lucario if it was only broken as part of a single broken team, as opposed to the many, many broken teams it was a part of (which were turned broken solely because of it.
- WalLuke is unvaible. Only a moron would use Mega-Lucario as a physical wall, simply because it is completely outclassed. In fact, every possible Mega-Lucario set was either broken or unviable. Scoliopede and Espeon, however, have decent niches outside of Baton Pass teams. Scoliopede is a good cleaner that pretty much can't be outsped without priority, while Espeon is a dual screener that bounces back hazards and status. By banning Espeon and Scoliopede, will will lose something of value. This was not the case for Mega-Lucario. except this point is incorrect

These are the two main arguments I can think of, but I may be missing some.

Also, what on earth happened to this thread? Last time I checked, we pretty much all silently agreed that BP was broken and were debating how to nerf it, it not whether or not to nerf it! Could we please go back to the "BP cap vs banning/nerfing of Espeon and Scoliopede" debate? Both sides had very valid arguments and made you think about how the approach BP, while this whole "just deal with it" nonsense is... ugh.

On a side note, I've actually tried out a semi BP team with 3 BP users to test whether or not it is broken. I'm still near the bottom of the ladder, so it's a bit hard to tell, but the team I'm using (which is of Scoliopede+Espeon+Sylveon+Victini as a reciever+2 fillers) seems a tad broken to me, even though I really wish I had Vaporeon. The only things I lost to so far were Talonflame, Volcarona, a combination of Mega Charizard-X and Blissey, and some random stuff BP auto-loses to such as CritDra and Curse. But as I said, it's still the low ladder and I haven't spotted any attempts at phazing so far.

I have never found it so easy and effortless to ladder. I do wish that a more experienced player, preferably one that has also tried out full BP, would use this kind of team on the higher ladder and tell us if the experience of using full BP and semi-BP with 3 users is the same. The only major difference for me is that when passing to your main sweeper, you can't actually pass back, and therefore, you can mess up your chain. Then again, you can use Sylveon to sweep, but Victini is ridiculously powerful after 8-10 boosts, far more so than Sylveon. You really only pass to Victini once you're 100% sure you can completely sweep without getting phazed out. I guess you could use Vaporeon over Sylveon, if you want to gain bulk but don't bind losing offensive presence. The last 2 slots are pretty much filler to deal with common BP checks : at the moment, I use Scarf Hearan with Ancientpower and Landorus, though Thundurus is probably better for Pinsir, and the team does need something to deal with Mega Charizard-X.
 
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I am currently running this to help me against BP and general setup sweepers , it works to an extent , only problem is belly drum azumarill

Crobat @ Black Sludge
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Defog/Taunt
- Haze
- Cross Poison
 
If Espeon has the 56 speed EVs needed to outspeed standard Whimsicott, there is a chance that standard Mandibuzz will 2HKO (Foul Play will inflict similar damage); furthermore I don't see why Mandibuzz wouldn't just use a little attack investment to bring down a giant threat to a defensive team, or to at least have a good chance to break Espeon's substitute with U-Turn.

I am aware that the alternative I gave is not the best solution to the problem, but Mandibuzz is an example of a common Pokémon that will make the match against a Baton Pass team easier with only a slight alteration to its standard set/spread: the anti-ban side hopes for the metagame to adapt to the new threat of Baton Pass, and this is just one example of the many possible outcomes.
Your argument is invalid, Whimsi has no business against Espeon and Espeon with more thank likely have speed boosts in any case. Mandi has no chance against Full BP and can barely do anything to Espeon, even with STAB SE moves. While the whole purpose of a metagame is for evolution, ones that reduce the overall diversity are not healthy for said metagame, ie Full Baton Pass.
 
Depending on how save you want to be against BP you have a range of options. Taunt Thundurus is probably the best, then there are Taunt Mega Gyarados (also nice against stall) or Haxorous, Mega Guardevoir/Mega Alakazam (stop mentioning Mr Mime, he gets fucked over by Shadowball big time) or simply use strong setup sweepers like Pinsir or a combination of physical priority (Talonflame, Scizor) and special sweepers (Lando-I, Specs Gengar, Deoxys S). Its always said here that these offensive mons are stoped by def boosts and yes they are, but the whole freaking point in using them is TO NOT LET THEM GET THOSE BOOSTS!!! 90% of the BP Teams out there, especially those used by bad players crumble under early game pressure. This might not win you every game against Denisss but would that be right if a top player looses all the time because 1 single mon destroys his whole team?

Once again, yes those things will not win against BP 100% of the time, you can still get outplayed by the BP player if he knows his stuff but even with just basic things like Lando-I and Talonflame on your team you dont have an autoloss against BP anymore. Considering that basicly every non stall team runs mons like that i dont even know where this "90% of the teams have autoloss against BP" comes from. I suspect that most people using that argument simply dont know how to play against BP or just make wrong claimes on purpose to get BP banned.

The whole argumentation of the pro ban side is that you need obscure counters to have a 100% win against BP. If its desired to have a meta where 1 playstyle loses 100% of the time because of 1 pokemon thats also good against everything else, yes then go and ban it because there is no such thing, for 100% you will have to use obscure stuff.
But for 50+% basic things like those mentioned above will suffice given you played them right.

EDIT by Haunter: if you can't make civil posts, then refrain from posting. Force me to edit one more of your posts and you'll be banned.
 
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