So explain to me what's required to be broken. I've been arguing that scolipede and espeon ARE broken for the support they give.
Blaziken, Mega Gengar, and Genesect were all banned, at least partially, for elements not purely offensive (and certainly not defensive).
Blaziken obviously could, but the other two couldn't sweep teams or break unbeatable walls. They were banned for making situations that were uncompetitive (the momentum genesect gives, and clearing the way for a win the condition).
So, is it the lack of offensive element? Is it the fact that only this one specific team is made OP by it? Or do we just not understand support yet (because the second two bans took a lot of convincing to get the majority behind)?
I'm glad you brought this point up, because I actually bought into it for a while. If Scoliopede and Espeon are broken as BP supporters, is the same way as, say, Mega-Lucario is broken as a sweeper, should we not ban them? Of course, you cold use them outside of BP, with a different set, and they wouldn't be broken, but couldn't you use Mega-Lucario as a phyical wall and have that not be broken?
After thinking about it, I think there are two main reasons for this :
- There is only one BP team. Some Pokemon are broken on Stall without being broken on Hyper Offense and vice-versa. But it's difficult to treat Baton Pass as an entire playstyle when there's only one viable Baton Pass team. Banning Espeon and Scoliopede solely for there role on a team that is broken in its entirety seems like a waste of a Pokemon, especially since that team is radically diffeent form any other team. I'm not sure if we would have banned Mega-Lucario if it was only broken as part of a single broken team, as opposed to the many, many broken teams it was a part of (which were turned broken solely because of it.
- WalLuke is unvaible. Only a moron would use Mega-Lucario as a physical wall, simply because it is completely outclassed. In fact, every possible Mega-Lucario set was either broken or unviable. Scoliopede and Espeon, however, have decent niches outside of Baton Pass teams. Scoliopede is a good cleaner that pretty much can't be outsped without priority, while Espeon is a dual screener that bounces back hazards and status. By banning Espeon and Scoliopede, will will lose something of value. This was not the case for Mega-Lucario. except this point is incorrect
These are the two main arguments I can think of, but I may be missing some.
Also, what on earth happened to this thread? Last time I checked, we pretty much all silently agreed that BP was broken and were debating how to nerf it, it not whether or not to nerf it! Could we please go back to the "BP cap vs banning/nerfing of Espeon and Scoliopede" debate? Both sides had very valid arguments and made you think about how the approach BP, while this whole "just deal with it" nonsense is... ugh.
On a side note, I've actually tried out a semi BP team with 3 BP users to test whether or not it is broken. I'm still near the bottom of the ladder, so it's a bit hard to tell, but the team I'm using (which is of Scoliopede+Espeon+Sylveon+Victini as a reciever+2 fillers) seems a tad broken to me, even though I really wish I had Vaporeon. The only things I lost to so far were Talonflame, Volcarona, a combination of Mega Charizard-X and Blissey, and some random stuff BP auto-loses to such as CritDra and Curse. But as I said, it's still the low ladder and I haven't spotted any attempts at phazing so far.
I have never found it so easy and effortless to ladder. I do wish that a more experienced player, preferably one that has also tried out full BP, would use this kind of team on the higher ladder and tell us if the experience of using full BP and semi-BP with 3 users is the same. The only major difference for me is that when passing to your main sweeper, you can't actually pass back, and therefore, you can mess up your chain. Then again, you can use Sylveon to sweep, but Victini is ridiculously powerful after 8-10 boosts, far more so than Sylveon. You really only pass to Victini once you're 100% sure you can completely sweep without getting phazed out. I guess you could use Vaporeon over Sylveon, if you want to gain bulk but don't bind losing offensive presence. The last 2 slots are pretty much filler to deal with common BP checks : at the moment, I use Scarf Hearan with Ancientpower and Landorus, though Thundurus is probably better for Pinsir, and the team does need something to deal with Mega Charizard-X.