Yes because people have no idea what Aegislash is like after playing in a meta with it for 8 months... Its been complained about for so long that there isn't in point in waiting for the meta to settle because things will still be exactly the same. It will still force 50/50s, all of its sets will still be intact. There is no point waiting whereas doing things now just makes us closer to an ideal metagame, which is what we are striving for.
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np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition
- Thread starter gr8astard
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Note: I made this account just so I may share my opinon on the matter. Take my opinions with a positive attitude in mind please.
I believe Aegislash should not be banned from the OU metagame. Aegis is a perfect example of what Game Freek is trying to do for competitive Pokemon. With its unique ability to change it from a defensive behemoth into either a physical or special attacker is incredible. Not to mention its incredible typing. Game Freek knew what this Pokemon would become one of the best Mons in the game. In order to counteract this, GF made some slight changes, like increaseing Knock Offs power and introducing Mega Gengar, who could hit Aegis for massive damage, even in shield form. When Mega Gengar got rightfully banned, I saw more use out of Aegislash. There was no clear one counter to it. Teams usually ran two Pokes to deal with it, or at least I did. Aegislash was also the main reason Bisharp increased in popularity. Aegislash singlehandly changed the Meta by influencing what was popular and what was not.
But if I'm for Aegis staying in the Meta, why am I bringing this up? It's because I see why Aegislash is being tested in the first place. This Sword and Shield tatic made people crazy.
And that is why I like it.
With Aegis ability to change its play style on the fly, it makes for the perfect guessing game. "Should I SD predicting the King Shield? Or should I hit him predicting the attack." This guessing game completely changes the flow of the battle, forcing players to adapt to their opponents play style. This is what Game Freak was looking for. They wanted the players to interact with one another, trying to figure out what the other is wanting to do.
However, Pokemon is actually based around this type of guessing game, even when Aegislash isn't involved. Players are ment to get into their opponents heads and predict what they are going to do next. The term "double switching" comes to mind when I think about this. When a player switches out to a Pokemon with an advantage, their opponent could predict that and switch to another Poke with an advantage over the new Poke. Now this can backfire really easily. The opponent could easily over predict and switch out when the Player stays in and attacks or sets up. This risk vs reward system is what makes Pokemon so competitive in my mind, and it is why I keep coming back to the game every so often.
So why should the embodiment of the Pokemon Metagame be banned? This Pokemon is amazing in the sense that it creates situations of prediction, and these situations teach the players how to respond with their own. Aegislash isn't just a great Pokemon, it is a great teaching lesson for new players.
In conclusion, Aegislash is a prediction based Pokemon in a prediction based Metagame. It forces the player to think about their options and respond with the right choice. If Aegislash is banded, then newer players may not adapt to this prediction based playstyle of Pokemon.
Final Notes: I first got started in competitive Pokemon this generation, and I believe I became a better player because of Aegislash. I don't have much proof of this, as I haven't been on Showdown or other simulators for the longest time. Take these opinons with an open mind. Also TFlame would have one less counter, just saying. :)
I believe Aegislash should not be banned from the OU metagame. Aegis is a perfect example of what Game Freek is trying to do for competitive Pokemon. With its unique ability to change it from a defensive behemoth into either a physical or special attacker is incredible. Not to mention its incredible typing. Game Freek knew what this Pokemon would become one of the best Mons in the game. In order to counteract this, GF made some slight changes, like increaseing Knock Offs power and introducing Mega Gengar, who could hit Aegis for massive damage, even in shield form. When Mega Gengar got rightfully banned, I saw more use out of Aegislash. There was no clear one counter to it. Teams usually ran two Pokes to deal with it, or at least I did. Aegislash was also the main reason Bisharp increased in popularity. Aegislash singlehandly changed the Meta by influencing what was popular and what was not.
But if I'm for Aegis staying in the Meta, why am I bringing this up? It's because I see why Aegislash is being tested in the first place. This Sword and Shield tatic made people crazy.
And that is why I like it.
With Aegis ability to change its play style on the fly, it makes for the perfect guessing game. "Should I SD predicting the King Shield? Or should I hit him predicting the attack." This guessing game completely changes the flow of the battle, forcing players to adapt to their opponents play style. This is what Game Freak was looking for. They wanted the players to interact with one another, trying to figure out what the other is wanting to do.
However, Pokemon is actually based around this type of guessing game, even when Aegislash isn't involved. Players are ment to get into their opponents heads and predict what they are going to do next. The term "double switching" comes to mind when I think about this. When a player switches out to a Pokemon with an advantage, their opponent could predict that and switch to another Poke with an advantage over the new Poke. Now this can backfire really easily. The opponent could easily over predict and switch out when the Player stays in and attacks or sets up. This risk vs reward system is what makes Pokemon so competitive in my mind, and it is why I keep coming back to the game every so often.
So why should the embodiment of the Pokemon Metagame be banned? This Pokemon is amazing in the sense that it creates situations of prediction, and these situations teach the players how to respond with their own. Aegislash isn't just a great Pokemon, it is a great teaching lesson for new players.
In conclusion, Aegislash is a prediction based Pokemon in a prediction based Metagame. It forces the player to think about their options and respond with the right choice. If Aegislash is banded, then newer players may not adapt to this prediction based playstyle of Pokemon.
Final Notes: I first got started in competitive Pokemon this generation, and I believe I became a better player because of Aegislash. I don't have much proof of this, as I haven't been on Showdown or other simulators for the longest time. Take these opinons with an open mind. Also TFlame would have one less counter, just saying. :)
So I've read a lot of posts saying that Aegislash, while powerful, is quite easy to handle.
But you have to realize the XY OU Metagame evolved around one thing: Swords Dance Aegislash.
From then on, a very sand-like metagame appeared, and out came various defensive Hippowdon, defensive Gliscor, Mandibuzz, Landorus-T sets.
Then someone realized that Aegislash actually gets Shadow Ball. Boom, suddenly SDef Hippo, SDef Gliscor, Amoonguss, pretty much anything with good sdef that isn't weak to ghost nor fighting appeared, including stuff like zapdos.
So yes, Aegislash can be dealt with, but look how centralizing this Pokemon has become.
See, my problem with Aegislash is that it can run many different sets. Sub-Toxic can be absolute hell, and wears down and/or beats common checks like Hippowdon and Mandibuzz. It can run Sub + Shadow Ball + Sacred Sword to lure bisharp. It can run Max Speed to outspeed and OHKO Bisharp. While not as consistent, it can still run Stance Dance for the surprise factor. It can run Lefties with 252 HP for survivability or Life Orb with 252 in both attacking stats. It can run Head Smash to beat common checks Mandibuzz and Zapdos. It can run Flash Cannon to 2HKO defensive Mandibuzz. It can run Iron Head to deal more damage to stuff like Landorus-T.
Speaking of which, the life orb set. At 150 spA + Life Orb, this is pretty much a nuke. With comparable power to LO Deo-S Psycho Boost, LO Latios Draco Meteor, etc.
But what's the difference? There is no drawback. In fact, shadow ball has an annoying 20% spD drop rate, which... by the way, lets it beat a lot of its checks. Both of the other ones force a situation in which the opponent can use the -2 SpA to set up. But with Aegislash? It has a continued nuke, not to mention it can just use King's Shield, take a hit, and launch another one (no need to switch out).
As for me, it's hard to say what a metagame without Aegislash would look like, but I can see a few things:
1. Starmie and Donphan (?) slightly more viable (Donphan may be 90% outclassed by Excadrill but not 100%).
2. A lot of Aegislash's checks not used as much.
Well that question is, what does Aegislash stop?
I can't really answer this question, because it has a crapton of things it switches in on and just launches a powerful Shadow Ball. Maybe we'll get to see creativity in some teams, like Hawlucha or Mega Medicham :D, or even Mega Heracross not having to run EQ anymore.
I won't even address the 50/50s here, but here's a thought, sometimes it's not really a 50/50, but it does let Aegislash win matchups it otherwise shouldn't.
But you have to realize the XY OU Metagame evolved around one thing: Swords Dance Aegislash.
From then on, a very sand-like metagame appeared, and out came various defensive Hippowdon, defensive Gliscor, Mandibuzz, Landorus-T sets.
Then someone realized that Aegislash actually gets Shadow Ball. Boom, suddenly SDef Hippo, SDef Gliscor, Amoonguss, pretty much anything with good sdef that isn't weak to ghost nor fighting appeared, including stuff like zapdos.
So yes, Aegislash can be dealt with, but look how centralizing this Pokemon has become.
See, my problem with Aegislash is that it can run many different sets. Sub-Toxic can be absolute hell, and wears down and/or beats common checks like Hippowdon and Mandibuzz. It can run Sub + Shadow Ball + Sacred Sword to lure bisharp. It can run Max Speed to outspeed and OHKO Bisharp. While not as consistent, it can still run Stance Dance for the surprise factor. It can run Lefties with 252 HP for survivability or Life Orb with 252 in both attacking stats. It can run Head Smash to beat common checks Mandibuzz and Zapdos. It can run Flash Cannon to 2HKO defensive Mandibuzz. It can run Iron Head to deal more damage to stuff like Landorus-T.
Speaking of which, the life orb set. At 150 spA + Life Orb, this is pretty much a nuke. With comparable power to LO Deo-S Psycho Boost, LO Latios Draco Meteor, etc.
But what's the difference? There is no drawback. In fact, shadow ball has an annoying 20% spD drop rate, which... by the way, lets it beat a lot of its checks. Both of the other ones force a situation in which the opponent can use the -2 SpA to set up. But with Aegislash? It has a continued nuke, not to mention it can just use King's Shield, take a hit, and launch another one (no need to switch out).
As for me, it's hard to say what a metagame without Aegislash would look like, but I can see a few things:
1. Starmie and Donphan (?) slightly more viable (Donphan may be 90% outclassed by Excadrill but not 100%).
2. A lot of Aegislash's checks not used as much.
Well that question is, what does Aegislash stop?
I can't really answer this question, because it has a crapton of things it switches in on and just launches a powerful Shadow Ball. Maybe we'll get to see creativity in some teams, like Hawlucha or Mega Medicham :D, or even Mega Heracross not having to run EQ anymore.
I won't even address the 50/50s here, but here's a thought, sometimes it's not really a 50/50, but it does let Aegislash win matchups it otherwise shouldn't.
It would be really stupid to ban Aegislash only because a few have trouble with it. Just put Gliscor, Charizard, Bisharp, or Sableye on the team. Heatran might give hitkill with Fire Blast before it can retaliate with Sacred Sword. There are so many possibilities.
There are so many overpower Pokemon in OU to worry about. Aegislash is not one of them, it is predictable and easy to counter. If you want to play competitive game, you need to deal with some things, and there is no ''perfect team'' that gives you 100% chance to beat anyone.
There are so many overpower Pokemon in OU to worry about. Aegislash is not one of them, it is predictable and easy to counter. If you want to play competitive game, you need to deal with some things, and there is no ''perfect team'' that gives you 100% chance to beat anyone.
Being forced to put one out of two or three Pokemon on a team just to deal with one specific threat is what these are trying to prevent. If a pokemon's so strong that every team has to run one of four specific Pokemon just in case the other guy is running it, then it's overcentralizing the meta; this is Baton Pass all over again in that case.
I'm not convinced by this whole "it centralizes this meta" arguments and "it can run many sets" points, the reason we use the first argument is when it puts severe limitations on team building (Aegislash has many common weaknesses (4), counters and checks) and denies a large group of pokemon from being used either because of lack of team slots (already discussed) or because its sole existence makes them useless where otherwise they would be perfectly OU (Starmie, Volcarona and the rest of the lot got destroyed by the Priority Meta, not Aegislash and will probably stay that way).
The second point, "having many sets" can be used whenever sending the wrong answer to a one set can mean your destruction without having any reliable way of knowing before hand what the Aegislash is running (if you see an Aegishield in a Stall team and can't figure out what it does, then I'm sorry), which is fine and all until we acknowledge that all Aegislash's are dealt with the same way, Super Effective attacks that are either non contact or are too powerful to not care about KS unboosted or otherwise:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 322-382 (99.3 - 117.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 260-308 (80.2 - 95%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 307-367 (94.7 - 113.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield in Sun: 440-522 (135.8 - 161.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 350-412 (108 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 270-318 (83.3 - 98.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 288-340 (88.8 - 104.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 84-99 (19.8 - 23.3%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 506-596 (156.1 - 183.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 136-162 (37.3 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(I'm not even going to list them all)
Note that the 50/50 KS argument also puts Aegislash user under intense pressure to predict correctly depending on his set, cause choosing to sub/attack/KS/toxicate incorrectly will most likely give the opponent chances to set up on it/weaken it/switch in a counter/check/pursuit trap or just plain kill it.
Voting to ban this thing not only doesn't make sense, it's being selective/biased where at least 3 known pokemon fufill these "ban arguments" way more convincingly and it's very bad for Smogon both competitively and reputation wise.
Edit: Apparently pokemon such as Rotom-W (to use with Mold Breaker) and Heatran do not exist so as to make EQ an Aegilash exclusive moveslot...
Edit2: Talonflame, CharX, Mega Pinsir, Mega Mawile, Bisharp and the rest of the lot do not exist, have 0 influence on the metagame and without Aegishield to bully the hood Hawlucha, Starmie, Volca, Medicham and the rest will find comfortable homes in OU and be number 1 again...
The second point, "having many sets" can be used whenever sending the wrong answer to a one set can mean your destruction without having any reliable way of knowing before hand what the Aegislash is running (if you see an Aegishield in a Stall team and can't figure out what it does, then I'm sorry), which is fine and all until we acknowledge that all Aegislash's are dealt with the same way, Super Effective attacks that are either non contact or are too powerful to not care about KS unboosted or otherwise:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 322-382 (99.3 - 117.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 260-308 (80.2 - 95%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 307-367 (94.7 - 113.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield in Sun: 440-522 (135.8 - 161.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 350-412 (108 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 270-318 (83.3 - 98.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 288-340 (88.8 - 104.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 84-99 (19.8 - 23.3%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 506-596 (156.1 - 183.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 136-162 (37.3 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(I'm not even going to list them all)
Note that the 50/50 KS argument also puts Aegislash user under intense pressure to predict correctly depending on his set, cause choosing to sub/attack/KS/toxicate incorrectly will most likely give the opponent chances to set up on it/weaken it/switch in a counter/check/pursuit trap or just plain kill it.
Voting to ban this thing not only doesn't make sense, it's being selective/biased where at least 3 known pokemon fufill these "ban arguments" way more convincingly and it's very bad for Smogon both competitively and reputation wise.
Edit: Apparently pokemon such as Rotom-W (to use with Mold Breaker) and Heatran do not exist so as to make EQ an Aegilash exclusive moveslot...
Edit2: Talonflame, CharX, Mega Pinsir, Mega Mawile, Bisharp and the rest of the lot do not exist, have 0 influence on the metagame and without Aegishield to bully the hood Hawlucha, Starmie, Volca, Medicham and the rest will find comfortable homes in OU and be number 1 again...
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There are a ton of things wrong with this post, but the biggest one is that you've clearly never read any suspect thread before. I'd highly suggest skimming some before you try posting again.
I want to bring up one aspect of Aegislash that's entirely separate from brokenness, but paramount to why it should be banned imo.
50/50s
Pokemon is a game of chance, but XY OU is literally a tier of 50/50s, and it's so much because of Aegislash. King's Shield and the risk associated with staying in Sword stance or reverting to Shield stance exacerbate the amount of 50/50s on another level. Let's take Sub Kyurem-B. It comes in, goes for Sub on the attack and its Sub is broken. It can Sub on the KS and gain an advantage or EP on the attack and kill Aegi. Or Garchomp will SR vs Aegi and lose a crapload of its health for no cost or attack and bring it down to low health. Will Aegi Sacred Sword the Bisharp switch-in? Does Mega Mawile set up and lose a crapload of its health or does it attack and kill? Merely the presence of Aegislash forces 50/50s. Does Terrakion EQ the Aegislash switch or does it Stone Edge because Thundurus or Latios will come in? Not all of these are the best examples I'm sure but you get the point. I think a Pokemon that creates so many 50/50s tends to remove skill from the metagame and make it, for lack of a better word, "less fun".
If you're arguing against a ban due to collateral then your reasoning is fundamentally flawed. Keeping broken stuff to "tame" the meta doesn't really make sense. If it requires more bans afterwards, who honestly cares? We suspected for all of BW, and not once was a ban considered for collateral damage. Banning Genesect flipped the tier upside down in BW. This is irrelevant; the only factors relevant in a ban are the brokenness, unhealthyness, and/or uncompetitiveness of the testing subject.
People are downplaying Aegislash's versatility enormously. Please don't bring usage stats into this first of all. Aegislash has four good sets basically. The standard tank is one, where literally the only things guaranteed are Shadow Ball and King's Shield. Iron Head, Toxic, Shadow Sneak, Sacred Sword, Flash Cannon...even within variations on its standard set that DO NOT reduce its effectiveness against the majority of threats (think running Psychic > Focus Blast or HP Flying > HP Ice on Thundurus, or Sludge Wave/Rock Slide Lando) it can wreck its different counters. SubToxic turns the tables on Mandibuzz and is an enormously effective staller. Fast LO 4 attacks annihilates Mandibuzz as well, among things like Heatran non-full SDef Hippowdon Lando-T Chesnaught Bisharp etc. SD wrecks Amoon Mandi Heatran and is a dangerous as hell sweeper/breaker. All of these sets are extremely deadly and ridiculous to deal with. This is like Deo-S, except amplified five times. The fact is that when you see Aegislash, you have almost NO IDEA exactly what it's going to do is so different from anything else. I can see, say, Thundurus and immediately rule out a lot of things based on team comp alone. I can't do this with Aegislash; this makes its versatility even MORE of a concern, because it is so good that on many teams it can literally be running any of its sets. I know Deo-D is banned but let's just use this example. I look at a Deo-D team and Aegislash could be anything. Air Balloon? Maybe. What's the Air Balloon set running? Is it slower or is it faster? What moves is it running? Like what if it's SD instead of mixed? Or it ends up being Life Orb. Or the person wanted the defensive backbone/longevity for whatever and decided to run Lefties. So don't downplay Aegislash's versatility, it's absolutely an enormous factor.
On overcentralization: please name me one other Pokemon in the tier that is so prevalent that it forces every single Pokemon in the tier to account for it. Dragonite, Terrakion, Mega Pinsir, etc are all running EQ for one target - Aegislash. Damn Mega Gard is getting screwed by Aegislash, how worth it is it? To go to an extreme let's take Hawlucha. Obviously it has issues but you look at the tier and the first thing that pops to mind is Aegislash. How does this beat Aegislash? I guess it's not that good. Not ONE Pokemon in the tier other than Aegislash has this degree of influence. Diversity is not inherently good but Aegislash, as a Pokemon, places implicit limitations upon what's good and what isn't in OU. On the flip side, why is Bisharp so good? Obviously it has all these positive traits, but it is literally the only Pokemon able to Pursuit trap Aegislash -- albeit on a 50/50 and not even completely killing -- making it a million times better. Why is Dark Pulse Greninja even a thing? Just Aegislash, now that Deo-D is gone. I know this isn't really relevant to a ban at all, but thinking about what we'd have to do with OU Analyses after an Aegi ban...I can't even imagine how much would have to be changed. Aegi's impact and pull on the tier is just so large that XY OU is entirely different because of it. I can ban Mawile or Charizard or whatever, but none of these things will have that much of an impact. Even while the Deos which we just banned in the tier, they weren't ruling the roost - Aegislash was. Nothing compares to the overcentralization in OU around Aegislash.
There's a good reason most good players I have talked to are in favor of an Aegislash ban. It's literally the perfect Pokemon that limits teambuilding as it is so unpredictable and good at everything to the point where Aegislash IS the OU tier. This is unhealthy and makes it fully deserving of a ban.
50/50s
Pokemon is a game of chance, but XY OU is literally a tier of 50/50s, and it's so much because of Aegislash. King's Shield and the risk associated with staying in Sword stance or reverting to Shield stance exacerbate the amount of 50/50s on another level. Let's take Sub Kyurem-B. It comes in, goes for Sub on the attack and its Sub is broken. It can Sub on the KS and gain an advantage or EP on the attack and kill Aegi. Or Garchomp will SR vs Aegi and lose a crapload of its health for no cost or attack and bring it down to low health. Will Aegi Sacred Sword the Bisharp switch-in? Does Mega Mawile set up and lose a crapload of its health or does it attack and kill? Merely the presence of Aegislash forces 50/50s. Does Terrakion EQ the Aegislash switch or does it Stone Edge because Thundurus or Latios will come in? Not all of these are the best examples I'm sure but you get the point. I think a Pokemon that creates so many 50/50s tends to remove skill from the metagame and make it, for lack of a better word, "less fun".
50/50s are NOT skill-based. You're making a disconnect between good plays and a flat-out 50/50 where all you can do is guess. It's not even an educated guess, it is complete and utter guesswork.
If you're arguing against a ban due to collateral then your reasoning is fundamentally flawed. Keeping broken stuff to "tame" the meta doesn't really make sense. If it requires more bans afterwards, who honestly cares? We suspected for all of BW, and not once was a ban considered for collateral damage. Banning Genesect flipped the tier upside down in BW. This is irrelevant; the only factors relevant in a ban are the brokenness, unhealthyness, and/or uncompetitiveness of the testing subject.
People are downplaying Aegislash's versatility enormously. Please don't bring usage stats into this first of all. Aegislash has four good sets basically. The standard tank is one, where literally the only things guaranteed are Shadow Ball and King's Shield. Iron Head, Toxic, Shadow Sneak, Sacred Sword, Flash Cannon...even within variations on its standard set that DO NOT reduce its effectiveness against the majority of threats (think running Psychic > Focus Blast or HP Flying > HP Ice on Thundurus, or Sludge Wave/Rock Slide Lando) it can wreck its different counters. SubToxic turns the tables on Mandibuzz and is an enormously effective staller. Fast LO 4 attacks annihilates Mandibuzz as well, among things like Heatran non-full SDef Hippowdon Lando-T Chesnaught Bisharp etc. SD wrecks Amoon Mandi Heatran and is a dangerous as hell sweeper/breaker. All of these sets are extremely deadly and ridiculous to deal with. This is like Deo-S, except amplified five times. The fact is that when you see Aegislash, you have almost NO IDEA exactly what it's going to do is so different from anything else. I can see, say, Thundurus and immediately rule out a lot of things based on team comp alone. I can't do this with Aegislash; this makes its versatility even MORE of a concern, because it is so good that on many teams it can literally be running any of its sets. I know Deo-D is banned but let's just use this example. I look at a Deo-D team and Aegislash could be anything. Air Balloon? Maybe. What's the Air Balloon set running? Is it slower or is it faster? What moves is it running? Like what if it's SD instead of mixed? Or it ends up being Life Orb. Or the person wanted the defensive backbone/longevity for whatever and decided to run Lefties. So don't downplay Aegislash's versatility, it's absolutely an enormous factor.
On overcentralization: please name me one other Pokemon in the tier that is so prevalent that it forces every single Pokemon in the tier to account for it. Dragonite, Terrakion, Mega Pinsir, etc are all running EQ for one target - Aegislash. Damn Mega Gard is getting screwed by Aegislash, how worth it is it? To go to an extreme let's take Hawlucha. Obviously it has issues but you look at the tier and the first thing that pops to mind is Aegislash. How does this beat Aegislash? I guess it's not that good. Not ONE Pokemon in the tier other than Aegislash has this degree of influence. Diversity is not inherently good but Aegislash, as a Pokemon, places implicit limitations upon what's good and what isn't in OU. On the flip side, why is Bisharp so good? Obviously it has all these positive traits, but it is literally the only Pokemon able to Pursuit trap Aegislash -- albeit on a 50/50 and not even completely killing -- making it a million times better. Why is Dark Pulse Greninja even a thing? Just Aegislash, now that Deo-D is gone. I know this isn't really relevant to a ban at all, but thinking about what we'd have to do with OU Analyses after an Aegi ban...I can't even imagine how much would have to be changed. Aegi's impact and pull on the tier is just so large that XY OU is entirely different because of it. I can ban Mawile or Charizard or whatever, but none of these things will have that much of an impact. Even while the Deos which we just banned in the tier, they weren't ruling the roost - Aegislash was. Nothing compares to the overcentralization in OU around Aegislash.
There's a good reason most good players I have talked to are in favor of an Aegislash ban. It's literally the perfect Pokemon that limits teambuilding as it is so unpredictable and good at everything to the point where Aegislash IS the OU tier. This is unhealthy and makes it fully deserving of a ban.
You're honestly ignoring everything else that made those Pokemon good. For one, Hippowdon is a seriously bulky Pokemon that has been good and used in OU ever since its introduction in DPP, and the SpDef set has been known to be pretty much the best set it has, it's overpopulation might have been due to Aegislash, but it's definitely also been to other Pokemon like Lati@s and Megaman for example. Aegislash just happens to be one of those Pokemon.
Mandibuzz's greatest niche might be as an Aegislash counter, but you didn't list the other things that made it OU: Steel nerf, Dark buff (relateable to steel nerf) and the defog buff. Aegislash just also happens to be one of those things that made it OU, and I honestly don't really think thats a reason for Aegislash to be overcentralizing.
Gliscor was also always good since its introduction in DPP, and so has Landorus-T since its introduction in BW2. The rise in usage isn't only just because of Aegislash.
As I said before, SpDef Hippo's rise in usage wasn't due to Aegislash's Shadow Ball set alone. And I thought SpDef Gliscor was popularized because its a Landorus-I counter first and foremost? And Amoonguss has also been good but people haven;t really been using it lol (and i hope they don't continue to because I want it in RU :c)
Tyranitar can run max speed Ice Beam for Landorus-T/Gliscor, Flamethrower/Fire Blast for Scizor, Skarmory, and Ferrothorn, and Thunder Punch for Azumarill. It has a Dragon Dance mega set, Choice Band, Choice Scarf, and bulky stealth rock and they can have different checks and counters.
Kyurem-B also has a number of sets and it kills pretty much most walls thanks to its tremendous power.
etc. etc. a lot of Pokemon can do that. That's not a reason a Pokemon is broken, there are pretty much countless situations in battle where you need to determine a Pokemon's moveset to properly counter it.
Pretty much a nuke.... that's easy to wear down. Life Orb + hazards damage + pivot switching and some residual damage can easily dispatch Aegislash with no problem at all.
I was just giving suggestions, I was not saying that those are the only ones who can win against Aegislash. Anyone with high attack and Earthquake, which have no weakness to Fighting and Ghost can easily handle against him. Not only these, but also special sweepers with moves of Fire or Dark, Ghost maybe. These types are quite common and at least I think every team should have at least one of these moves if you want to win, not only against Aegislash, but with any other team.
Aegi is an integral part of the meta and removing it could lead to future bans regarding former pokes who were otherwise kept in check by aegi. Banning aegi means more thing are viable but could there be things that are made to viable by banning aegi a lot of offensive teams use aegi to check or combat things like thundurus who is otherwise a pain to handle for certain sweepers like mega pinsir. Latios can now have a lot more fun now that one of his number one counters and opt to run surf or eq to handle heatran. The metagame will obviously shift for better or for worse but right now xy is a pretty good meta with a great variety of playstyles and aegi can be used on all of them banning aegi weakens certain playstyle specifically balance as it requires certain pokes to fill many roles. Stall benefits from aegi as he is one of the few things that can take on mega cham and mega garde. offense loves him as he is a great pivot and revenge killer. Aegi is used because of how versatile he is that versatility can be comparable to pokemon like thundurus who can beat common counters by using different coverage moves in its last slot such as hp flying, grass knot, and psychic. Thundurus can also go mixed with a defiant set using knock off and superpower to destroy chansey. Aegi is good but he is not some 50/50 monster everyone is worried about if we want to ban something because it is centralizing and versatile we can ban talonflame and megazard-x who can use a variety sets to harrass would be counters.
Banning aegi is going greatly change the xy meta. I do not know if it will be better or worse because of it aegi can be handled decently with a prepared team and not being stupid against when facing an aegi the 50/50s are annoying but what about sucker punch it forces 50/50's on things versing bisharp and mawile but they arent frowned upon many a times I have gotten swept by a mega maw due to predicting wrong.aegislash can't handle special attackers nearly as well with king's shield and earthquake is a great move not just for aegislash but heatran. Sure mega pinsir can run cc and terrak can run a move in a moveslot that really didnt matter in BW. Aegis keeps a lot of things in check without having to resort to talonflame or another priority abuser. Banning aegi will have collateral damage but that may not be too important as we can ban stuff later down the road as we see fit. I'm not too sure aegi deserves a ban but it will sure be interesting to see the meta if he leaves.
Banning aegi is going greatly change the xy meta. I do not know if it will be better or worse because of it aegi can be handled decently with a prepared team and not being stupid against when facing an aegi the 50/50s are annoying but what about sucker punch it forces 50/50's on things versing bisharp and mawile but they arent frowned upon many a times I have gotten swept by a mega maw due to predicting wrong.aegislash can't handle special attackers nearly as well with king's shield and earthquake is a great move not just for aegislash but heatran. Sure mega pinsir can run cc and terrak can run a move in a moveslot that really didnt matter in BW. Aegis keeps a lot of things in check without having to resort to talonflame or another priority abuser. Banning aegi will have collateral damage but that may not be too important as we can ban stuff later down the road as we see fit. I'm not too sure aegi deserves a ban but it will sure be interesting to see the meta if he leaves.
I don't think Aegislash is broken, but as someone who has a lot of experience with it, I can see why there would be grounds for ban. Aegislash is the reason that stuff like Terrakion, Mega Medicham, and Mega Gardevoir aren't used as much as they would because of the mere presence of this pokemon. Aegislash has literally shaped the OU metagame, and I can't even begin to think of what XY OU would look like without it. It would be like banning the weather inducers last gen.
I'm really excited to see what a ladder without Aegislash looks like, and I hope Talonflame's suspect is next on the chopping block.
I'm really excited to see what a ladder without Aegislash looks like, and I hope Talonflame's suspect is next on the chopping block.
I disagree in saying EQ is forced to be run, specifically for Aegislash, on those three examples you gave. I do think it should be run on them. I believe that EQ is common sense to be run as coverage for a lot of things out there. It's because ground is a great and prevalent offensive type, not because there are a select few annoyances that can be taken down only by it.
I do not think Pursuit Bisharp is a particularly effective way to counter Aegislash because of Kings Shield being a possibility. But if Bisharp came in on the turn it was in shield form, then yes it is much more threatening to Aegislash.
As you said, Deoxys being gone means Dark Pulse is less needed on Greninja, but I think it can provide decent enough coverage to a Greninja set to have more utility than just Gengar/Aegislash (It's only a 2HKO on Aegislash anyway, unless it had plenty of prior damage). I can see dissenting opinions though.
I disagree with Aegislash being banned. I do not believe it is a threat enough to the current metagame to warrant a ban, but I may have only battled predictable Aegislashes and not had a taste of the possible power it has. All that I've played were easy enough to handle.
That seems pretty reckless. The concept of banning things until a safe, unshifting meta occurs has inherent flaws, flaws that can't always be solved by banning more and more things. If you stick to this philosophy that a ban can't be undone within a generational meta, your only way of dealing with unforseen changes is more bans. It's like if you made a mistake in a digital painting and instead of pressing Ctrl+Z, you just painted over it and made it a bit worse. The mistakes start piling up.
I see your point, but you listed predominantly S rank pokemon that may be suspect tested in the future. I dont want to talk about any of them atm, but I could very well see thundurus or landorus getting banned for the same reason you just described. Especially thundurus, he learns:grass knot, incinerate, psychic, ALL HPs, knock off, superpower, all of these moves are able to hit pokemon that could potentially wall it. Almost all S rank pokemon share the same trait of being versatile, and right now we are just testing them, I am sure more pokemon will be tested for the same reason.
So yes exactly like that.
Because if a pokemon has a few viable counters that can consistently come in and beat it, it is generally not considered broken. I was showing that aegislash is able to handle all of his would be "counters" with different sets, and these sets are all viable against pokemon besides the counters they are meant to beat. Obviously if there were no poke that could kill aegislash he wouldve been quick banned at the start of the meta, it is generally more helpful to talk about counters when considering banning a pokemon.
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Ground, fire, dark and ghost are undeniably some of the most common attacking types in the meta. They are not hard to fit on teams at all, and I don't really see how you can give Aegislash all the blame for their popularity because EQ was the go to coverage move last gen, fire got 3 huge new abusers, knock off and sucker punch are immensely useful outside of Aegislash, and...ok, Aegislash is the main ghost abuser, but it were banned, I'd expect Gengar to carry on just fine with it's ghost/fighting coverage. I don't consider Aegislash over centralizing at all.
That said, I will definitely flip sides if the sub set turns it from a skill based prediction game to a luck based rock-paper-scissors type game.
That said, I will definitely flip sides if the sub set turns it from a skill based prediction game to a luck based rock-paper-scissors type game.
Checking potentially broken sets has never been a reason to keep a pokemon around. You saw that argument a lot with Genesect, and it didn't work then either.
Aegi is being suspected:
Anyways the arguments of overcentralization and versatility are legitimate but honestly Heatran is a really really good check if not counter to this guy now before any of you say LO SD STOP if you have to run SD to bypass tran I think you have a pretty solid counter. Aegi is a really good pokemon but is in no way banworthy for one it can be easily played around in the hands of an experienced player. For the making mandibuzz ou arguement it's about time people realized that the thing is a monster and defog is the icing on the make. Basically Aegi is easy to play around imho and is in no way broken.
You're taking this and trying to force it into an entirely different context to make it sound ridiculous, when quite honestly, you're just making yourself sound ridiculous. If you disagree, fine. I can respect that. I don't respect the so-called "logic" that you're attempting to use to make yourself sound smart. I'm talking about banning one move entirely from the metagame. Banning Sticky Web on Shuckle alone would be a complex ban which would be completely unnecessary. I'm not talking about a complex ban. Aegislash is the only one that can learn King's Shield, so banning King's Shield altogether is enough. Froslass is in no way OP. Not even close with or without Spikes. I can't emphasize enough that you just don't see how simple this would be.
Aegislash is the ONLY pokemon that can learn King's Shield. My proposal is NOT for a complex ban. Banning the move King's Shield is quite simple and I guess you just can't see that.
EDIT: Also, kid? Really? I'm probably older than you. Just being honest.
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honestly, it'd make more sense to ban stance change. That's undeniably the breaking element of Aegislash, King's shield is just important because it activates it. We aren't going to go out of our way to keep something from getting banned. The classic example is MewTwo without psystrike, but it applies to a lot of things. Basically, if a pokemon is broken, we ban it, not whatever we feel like just to keep from banning the pokemon.
More importantly, the thread is about banning Aegislash, not King's Shield. If you have an alternative ban idea, I'd suggest contacting a council member. They'll be a bit more receptive and be able to give a more definitive response.
banning stance change would be banning Aegislash. you can ban a singular ability without banning the pokemon
Thank you. I appreciate you actually telling me why you disagree in a respectful manner. I'll consider bringing it up with one of the council members.
Ok time for my first real suspect post since Mega Kangaskhan.
Let me describe a Pokemon to you. This Pokemon is one that can fit on just about every team. It is powerful, threatening, and versatile to the point where just about every team becomes better just by using it. In fact, it's almost good enough that you have to ask yourself why you aren't using it rather than why you are. It has access to a powerful and effective STAB attack, priority, the ability to switch in on many different Pokemon due to its fantastic typing and movepool to deal with the Pokemon that provide it free switches. Its versatility is also an issue in that the one or two Pokemon that people might consider "counters" to it can easily be taken out just by changing the set slightly. It forces a bunch of 50/50 scenarios that contribute to the unhealthy presence it brings to the metagame. It also forces Pokemon to alter their sets and spreads in ways that, while may not seem bad at first glance, are actually subpar and reference to how unhealthy this Pokemon is. What Pokemon do you think I'm describing? Aegislash? Nope. It's Genesect.
But that really could have been about Aegislash couldn't it? That's because they affect the metagame in a very similar (and imo, negative) way. Aegislash is an amalgamation of just about everything that can be "good" about a Pokemon. It has everything anything could possibly ask for to be successful. It has amazing typing both offensively and defensively. It has a movepool that suits it perfectly. It has the ultimate move for pivots in the game (King's Shield), which also creates unbelievably unhealthy 50/50s, which means that the winner of a game with aegislash can be decided with a coinflip. Its stats can change from the ultimate wall to the ultimate attacker in the middle of a turn, and its slow speed actually HELPS with this, because t can tank a hit with high defenses and then attack with massive power.
Are there Pokemon that can deal with individual sets for Aegislash? Of course. But there is nothing that beats all of its sets. None. Hippowdon and Mandibuzz can be dealt with using SubToxic. Bisharp can be killed with Sacred Sword on the switch or with a fast LO set, OR with a Sub Sacred Sword set. Heatran can be beaten by LO SD (Sword on switch, then Shadow Sneak). When you switch into Aegi, you better be damn sure that you know exactly what set it is because if you're wrong it can and WILL cost you one of your Pokemon.
And that's just considering how it is broken by the conventional sense. There are still more reasons why Aegislash is unhealthy: namely, that it forces most physical attackers to run sub-optimal moves just to beat it. Why do Mega Pinsir and Lucario and Terrakion and Dragonite and Tyranitar run Earthquake? It cannot be argued that Earthquake is a valuable move outside of Aegislash for any of these Pokemon bar Dragonite (which does get walled by Heatran without it). Every single one of those Pokemon have better moves to use besides EQ, but they are forced to run it anyway because of opportunity cost. It's worth running a sub-optimal move because losing to Aegislash is more detrimental than losing to other Pokemon. This doesn't count Pokemon like Medicham using Fire Punch, Gardevoir running Shadow Ball, and Greninja running Dark Pulse, all of which suck but people still use because Aegislash is centralizing
.
I really don't see how anyone can look at this Pokemon and think "yep, this is healthy for the metagame." It is broken and centralizing and it deserves to be banned. Somewhere out there, Gary2346 is cheering that we finally suspected this thing. This is for you bro ;__;
Let me describe a Pokemon to you. This Pokemon is one that can fit on just about every team. It is powerful, threatening, and versatile to the point where just about every team becomes better just by using it. In fact, it's almost good enough that you have to ask yourself why you aren't using it rather than why you are. It has access to a powerful and effective STAB attack, priority, the ability to switch in on many different Pokemon due to its fantastic typing and movepool to deal with the Pokemon that provide it free switches. Its versatility is also an issue in that the one or two Pokemon that people might consider "counters" to it can easily be taken out just by changing the set slightly. It forces a bunch of 50/50 scenarios that contribute to the unhealthy presence it brings to the metagame. It also forces Pokemon to alter their sets and spreads in ways that, while may not seem bad at first glance, are actually subpar and reference to how unhealthy this Pokemon is. What Pokemon do you think I'm describing? Aegislash? Nope. It's Genesect.
But that really could have been about Aegislash couldn't it? That's because they affect the metagame in a very similar (and imo, negative) way. Aegislash is an amalgamation of just about everything that can be "good" about a Pokemon. It has everything anything could possibly ask for to be successful. It has amazing typing both offensively and defensively. It has a movepool that suits it perfectly. It has the ultimate move for pivots in the game (King's Shield), which also creates unbelievably unhealthy 50/50s, which means that the winner of a game with aegislash can be decided with a coinflip. Its stats can change from the ultimate wall to the ultimate attacker in the middle of a turn, and its slow speed actually HELPS with this, because t can tank a hit with high defenses and then attack with massive power.
Are there Pokemon that can deal with individual sets for Aegislash? Of course. But there is nothing that beats all of its sets. None. Hippowdon and Mandibuzz can be dealt with using SubToxic. Bisharp can be killed with Sacred Sword on the switch or with a fast LO set, OR with a Sub Sacred Sword set. Heatran can be beaten by LO SD (Sword on switch, then Shadow Sneak). When you switch into Aegi, you better be damn sure that you know exactly what set it is because if you're wrong it can and WILL cost you one of your Pokemon.
And that's just considering how it is broken by the conventional sense. There are still more reasons why Aegislash is unhealthy: namely, that it forces most physical attackers to run sub-optimal moves just to beat it. Why do Mega Pinsir and Lucario and Terrakion and Dragonite and Tyranitar run Earthquake? It cannot be argued that Earthquake is a valuable move outside of Aegislash for any of these Pokemon bar Dragonite (which does get walled by Heatran without it). Every single one of those Pokemon have better moves to use besides EQ, but they are forced to run it anyway because of opportunity cost. It's worth running a sub-optimal move because losing to Aegislash is more detrimental than losing to other Pokemon. This doesn't count Pokemon like Medicham using Fire Punch, Gardevoir running Shadow Ball, and Greninja running Dark Pulse, all of which suck but people still use because Aegislash is centralizing
.I really don't see how anyone can look at this Pokemon and think "yep, this is healthy for the metagame." It is broken and centralizing and it deserves to be banned. Somewhere out there, Gary2346 is cheering that we finally suspected this thing. This is for you bro ;__;
I've agreed with Smogon on every case except for this, and i usually never try to get into a forum discussion of any kind cause i hate conflict of any kind, but for aegislash i have decided to make an exception.
Aegislash is indeed a powerful Pokemon, it's amazing defense, and it's amazing offense is to be admired, but there's many Pokemon, and many techniques that can be used to stop an aegislash in it's tracks as i will say the following:
Defient Ability Bisharp: For king shield will only make him stronger.
Physical wall Foul Play mandibuzz, umbreon, Klefki: because after 1-3 foul plays will kill any aegislash
Breloom and amoonguss with spore, vivillion with compound eyes sleep powder : because putting it to sleep will crush it.
Bullet proof chestnaught: for shadow ball or any physical attacks from aegislash will barely harm him.
Flamebody volcarona: any aegislash will be afraid of fighting that, especially after a single quiver dance
prankster sableye: For a taunt along with foul play will hurt aegislash very much and maybe even with the use of will-o-wisp to cripple it.
life orbed max attack diggersby : cause i know from experience, and aegislash will not survive an earthquake from that thing.
Multiscale Dragonite: it can take hits from aegislash and in a fight, dragonite can win.
Trick or Switcheroo: cause if you give that thing a choice scarf, it'll be crippled very badly.
Intelligence: because if you want to be good at competitive, you really need a decent IQ to get far.
Aegislash is tough, yeah, duh, but do you honestly think aegislash can make it far in Ubers? no, that thing will be destroyed, and if you disagree with me, why don't you do a few battles in ubers with aegislash.
a few of these ideas may not be commonly used, but if you're going to continue on planning to use the same crappy old tactics that everyone else in OU uses, then you can't blame aegislash for your loss, but your own.
Thank you for reading and if they're are any grammatical errors i apologize.
Aegislash is indeed a powerful Pokemon, it's amazing defense, and it's amazing offense is to be admired, but there's many Pokemon, and many techniques that can be used to stop an aegislash in it's tracks as i will say the following:
Defient Ability Bisharp: For king shield will only make him stronger.
Physical wall Foul Play mandibuzz, umbreon, Klefki: because after 1-3 foul plays will kill any aegislash
Breloom and amoonguss with spore, vivillion with compound eyes sleep powder : because putting it to sleep will crush it.
Bullet proof chestnaught: for shadow ball or any physical attacks from aegislash will barely harm him.
Flamebody volcarona: any aegislash will be afraid of fighting that, especially after a single quiver dance
prankster sableye: For a taunt along with foul play will hurt aegislash very much and maybe even with the use of will-o-wisp to cripple it.
life orbed max attack diggersby : cause i know from experience, and aegislash will not survive an earthquake from that thing.
Multiscale Dragonite: it can take hits from aegislash and in a fight, dragonite can win.
Trick or Switcheroo: cause if you give that thing a choice scarf, it'll be crippled very badly.
Intelligence: because if you want to be good at competitive, you really need a decent IQ to get far.
Aegislash is tough, yeah, duh, but do you honestly think aegislash can make it far in Ubers? no, that thing will be destroyed, and if you disagree with me, why don't you do a few battles in ubers with aegislash.
a few of these ideas may not be commonly used, but if you're going to continue on planning to use the same crappy old tactics that everyone else in OU uses, then you can't blame aegislash for your loss, but your own.
Thank you for reading and if they're are any grammatical errors i apologize.
Aegislash is surely a powerful mon and its ability makes it one of the most powerful pokèmon ever created but at the same time one of the most frail
King's Shield... ok the drop, but it's not so reliable. What to do when facing a statup sweeper? Shielding and let it dance? Or attack on statup with the risk of being killed so easily? Good stalls haven't big problems with this mon due to the fact it isn't "uncounterable" neither with its mixed set (the most dangerous set imho but also the most predictable).. SDef Amoonguss (w/ Foul Play), Mandibuzz, Chesnaught, SDef Hippowdon, AV Azumarill, AV Conkeldurr, Heatran, also Ferrothorn (lol) or SubToxic, walled by Chansey/Blissey, MagicGuard Clefable, Taunt Mandibuzz, HB Umbreon, Amoonguss, also MVenu w/HP Fire or EQ tanks n kills. Also Altaria does, lol. And every Dark Pokèmon walls it, Bisharp as first. And I forgot a lot of threats.
I have to say also SubToxic really needs a Wish support, its lack of recoveries doesnt make it an excellent wall in the long time as many other pokèmon (w/recover moves or traits) can do
I honestly think that if you have serious troubles with Aegislash is not a problem to be solved by banning the monster but improving your teambuilding (and battling?) skills.
I'll reach the requirements to vote No Ban. Of course.
Aegislash: Aegi can't check Aegi itself so easily: SD set can be Shielded that sneaked but it will become a 50/50 mindgame. Aegi can enter on Iron Head/SSword of Mixed Pivot set but absolutely not on SBall. Not a check, not a counter. It can just "revengekill" if winning Shield/Sneak/SBall mindgame.
Azumarill: Azu can enter on "every" move and kill but it has to be careful of Shield. Just Knock Off at can actually kill Aegislash even if it get the -2 Shield drop. Av Azumarill got high chances to be 3hko. It has more problems in takin off SubToxic set tho. Still a good check.
Bisharp: It just have to be careful to Sacred Sword. It walls every other move and thanks to Defiant it doesn't give a single fuck of KShield, Knock Off still OHKOes it. It can trap it with Pursuit. Sucker Punch (if Adamant) helps vs max speed set, Jolly still outspeeds it. SubToxic is totally walled. A check, sometimes a counter.
Breloom: It's definitely not a check, neither a counter. But it can Spore it (and Shield doesn't protect against status, another reason to not define KShield "op")
Chansey: It walls it, SSword is 3HKO after SR. The only problem is that Chansey can't do nothing to stop Aegislash. SD set wins, Mixed loses PPwar unless crits, SubToxic can waste Bell's PPs or force the switch but nothing more. Counter? Surely more check that not.
Mega Charizard X: Offensive set is just a Revengekiller if it got EQ but can win anyway 50/50 KShield using FBlitz/Fire Punch on an Aegi that tries to stop the possible DDance. Bulky Dancer set takes big damages too, but it got more possibilities to win 50/50 thanks to Roost. SDefensive set can be 2HKOed only with SR up and kills with EQ.
SD set, missing the 2HKO w/ SSneak at Adamant +2 and being killed by every move in Blade Form. It can check and sometimes "counter", revengekiller.
Mega Charizard Y: It can enter on a Shadow Ball and kill with Fire STAB (screw Blast miss) or Roosting on Shield; Char Y should win anyway the 1v1 being faster. SD set at Adamant +2 doesn't kill with SSneak and get killed. Revengekiller and check w/out SR up.
Clefable: Mixed pivot set gotta run Iron Head to be dangerous, losing the priority or the important SSword. SBall fails the 2HKO if Clef still got lefties. Quiet Aegi is slower so Clefable can Wish or Calm Mind in front of the ghost, plus it can Protect to scout moveset. MagicGuard lols at SubToxic and kills w/fire move (or Stored Power/Moonblast in the long way). Also SD set gotta run Iron Head to be dangerous. Unaware Clefable does same things with the exception to 100% win the 1v1 with SubToxic unless it got Heal Bell. Counter, at least check.
Conkeldurr: Its only good OU set is AVest that wins vs every Aegi's set (SubToxic is more dangerous, and Iron Head +2 Adamant miss the OHKO). Knock Off kills Aegi even with -2 drop, thanks to being slower, but using a fight move on Shield can bypass drop (worthy? I think not but w/e). Counter, at least check.
Diancie: I honestly don't know right now but it got really high defences. Rip x4 Steel weakness but without steel STAB it can surely threat it.
Dragonite: It takes around 25-30% from SBall with Scale, and it outspeeds and kill with EQ if Band or it can dance so Aegi can't Shield without being punished. Rkiller, check.
Espeon: It can't do anything useful versus it, just bpass away. HP Fire misses OHKO on Blade Form. Such a garbage mon.
Excadrill: It can be killed by Mixed SBall + Sneak (Ssword does like 90%). It can just enter on SBall if AV and killing, but AV set is so rare. It can enter on SD set but SSword at +0 Adamant got high chances to OHKO. One positive note: EQ is always OHKO. Not a check, just a revengekiller.
Ferrothorn: There's not a single move that can OHKO max def+ Ferrothorn, neither SSword at +2 Adamant (80%). It can Seed on Aegi bypassing Shield (just be careful with Sub set, but PWhip breaks the sub if it's in Blade Form). It can set up hazards on the ghost, not useful for its owner. Check.
Garchomp: Mixed fails to KO w/SBall + Sneak and get killed by EQ in Blade form. 50/50 with SD or EQ on Shield still exists. A sort of check and revengekiller.
Mega Garchomp: Like Garchomp but a bit bulkier.
Mega Gardevoir: It can't enter on stabs, SSneak kills it. It can just win w/mixed set in dumb situations like lack of Sneak, entering on SSword and kill with Shadow Ball on Blade Form but that's dumb lmao.
Gengar: It can just enter on SSword and pray that Mixed Aegi doesn't run enough Atk EVS investment to kill w/SSneak. It can't threat subtoxic and SD set, unless it's sashed.
Gliscor: It can enter on every move at full life and kills back with EQ or Subbing on Shield. It always wins vs SD set and have a good matchup vs SubToxic. Check.
Greninja: It can enter on every move but SSword. Fails the OHKO on Shield Form with Dark Pulse. It can revengekill.
/
Gyarados(Mega): Situation is strange. Gyara can enter on every Aegi's move, but does Gyara mega evolve or just attack or just dancin? Gyara got advantage but Aegi can win in some way. "Check", it uses Aegi as statup fodder or just kills it.
Heatran: Heatran can enter on every move of mixed set, though SSword 2HKOes it w/SR up. Heatran outspeeds Aegi and kill, even though Aegi can survive to a Lava Plume if Shielded but it risks the burn. SD set OHKOes it w/SSword but it gonna pass through a Lava Plume too (and its burn rate). SubToxic is quite walled cuz SBall is a 4HKO on SDef Heatran. Check, SubToxic "counter".
Hippowdon: this mon gotta run some SDef investment to win the 1v1 vs Aegi. Max SDef Hippo (lol?) takes around 40% and kills back w/EQ so it can be a sort of check yeah. SD set is completely walled, SubToxic can work around stalling it. "Check".
Keldeo: It can just enter on one SBall and kill but Specs Pump doesn't OHKO Shield Aegi so it's pretty hard to realize this. It can just win 1v1 if sent to revengekill but Aegi won't stay in
Kyurem-B: This mon can enter basically on every move that's not Iron Head/Flash Cannon and win the 50/50 with sub + Earth power. Not that safe check but it got ways to win vs Aegi so why the fuck not. AV takes less than 40% by SBall, SD set can take an EP and kill w/SSword or Iron Head, SubToxic got a real bad matchup vs KyuB. A sort of check.
Landorus-I: SBall does huge damage on Lando so it's not a safe check lol but it always OHKOes Aegi w/Earth Power. SD set loses the 1v1, SubToxic can Toxic/SBall under sub and KShield but it's forced to switch after this. Revengekiller
Landorus-T: Lando-T is easily 2HKOed by SBall but it can kill back with EQ obviously. The only problem is that Aegi can survive to one EQ if shielded and kill with SBall+SSneak in this scenario. SD Set is completely walled and SubToxic can win in some way. Bad Check.
Latias: Aegi is a Latias's counter so it's logical that Latias can't do pretty much vs it. Ghost stabs are really dangeous.
Latios: Same for Latias, it can't do big damage to Aegi even with EQ LO Mixed set. One reason why Aegi is so used is to stop Latwin duo.
Mamoswine: Mamo get killed by SBall + SSneak (or just Iron Head), it can just have chances to OHKO Shield form with LO. Sort of revengekiller.
Mandibuzz: Mandi is one of the best counter of Mixed and SD set (with the exception of Head Smash lol but it's p rare man u gotta be cteammed to get that done). Fast version w/Taunt can enter on SubToxic set even if it risks to get a Toxic on switch-in. Fplay always breaks sub. Counter.
Mega Manectric: Mane can't survive to a SBall + -1SSneak so it's not a check/counter. It can just do big damage with fire move but Overheat doesn't OHKO Shield form. SD set can kill it w/+2 Adamant SSword + SSneak takin an hit from Mane. Sub is usually broken by every move but HP Ice.
Mega Mawile: It can enter on SBall and win 50/50 by SD on KShield and Sucker Punch back (also SPunch avoids -2drop) or Fire Fang at least. +2 Sucker Punch OHKOes Shield form. SubToxic got a better matchup vs MegaMawile due to the fact it can sub on SuckerPunch. A bad check, but it can revengekill.
Mega Medicham: Aegi scares it, it can't HJK when Aegi's around and its only move that 2HKOes Shield Form (Fire Punch) can get KShield drop. Also, SSneak does big damages (it OHKOes Cham at +2) and also SBall OHKOes it. Aegi is one of the reasons why this incredibly strong mon is not so used in OU.
Mega Pinsir: not a check tho, but Aegi gotta be careful cuz +2 EQ kills shield form so it can be rkilled so ez by Pinsir that can enter on Blade form and Dance on Shield or just EQ and kill it. A sort of revengekiller
Quagsire: 2HKOed by Mixed's SBall, it can't do pretty much also vs SubToxic but it can take one SBall and kill back w/EQ due to the fact it's slower than Aegi. Thanks to Unaware, it completely walls SD set. SD set's counter, not a check of other sets.
Rotom-W: 2HKOed by Mixed's SBall, it can just burn Aegi but it's not so useful for mixed and subtoxic set. It walls SD set. SD set's counter, a bad Mixed set check if full SDefensive (>SDef Rotom-W in XY OU).
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Scizor(mega): CBZor is 2HKOed by SBall and Aegi can also shield on every move and drop the bug. Mega Scizor is bulkier so it's 2HKOed just w/SR up but it can roost and kill back w/Knock Off. It can also Roost/SD on KShield so there's the 50/50 fact. MegaScizor can check Aegi.
Scolipede: lol. It can just have chances to OHKO Shield form at +2 Adamant w/EQ. It takes huge damage by SBall and any other set. How is this thing OU ?.?
Skarmory: Mixed set does huge damages to Skarm (around 75% max roll), it can just wall SD set (but that's uncommon right now).
Smeargle: lol. It can Spore it!!!!!
Sylveon: Aegi gotta run Iron Head to be dangerous, SBall misses the 4HKO. Wish Protect can scout Aegi's moveset, Heal Bell allows Sylveon to don't lose 1v1 vs SubToxic (plus Hyper Voice hits under sub). It loses 1v1 vs SD set. It's a mixed/subtoxic counter.
Talonflame: it dies to SBall + Sneak (plus KShield drops BBird). CB set is stopped by KShield itself. SD set can take advantage to fake CB set and Dance on KShield. Aegis that try to attack on boost can get huge damages by FlareBlitz.
Terrakion: Aegi walls its STABS but it can SD + EQ (high chances to OHKO w/out LO on Shield form), usual 50/50 condition that makes it a sort of rkiller. (even if Aegi is a reason why Terrakion is not so used)
Thundurus-I: we gotta be grateful to Aegi if this thing got a check in offense teams. Thundurus is killed by SBall+SSneak. Thundurus itself goes close to 2hko w/LO Tbolt, Aegi is one of the few mons that are not at least 2HKOed by its neutral STAB (and that can do something back). Aegi's ban will result in a loss of one of its most important checks. EDIT: Defiant set can win the 1v1 vs Aegi thx to KnockOff
Togekiss: it's walled by Aegi (with exception of Fire move ok), but Aegi itself can't do much without Steel STAB.
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Tyranitar(mega): BulkyTar is killed by SSword (unless Chople berry but it misses OHKO on Aegi because it's faster). Mega Tyranitar can dance on KShield and kill w/Crunch or EQ. SSword doesnt OHKO Mega Tyranitar. TTar can always enter on SBall and try to pursuit but it gotta be careful by KShield. Check, it uses Aegi as setup fodder if mega or just kills it.
Vaporeon: Vaporeon is 3HKOed by SBall, it can Wish+Protect and attack w/Scald. +2 SD Aegi set can just 2HKO w/SSword but it can be burned by Scald so it's not worthy yeah. SubToxic can win 1v1 due to the fact Vaporeon doesn't break sub with a single Scald. Check.
Mega Venusaur: MegaVenu can be 3HKOed by SBall and +2 SSneak and it can do several damages w/EQ or at least HP Fire. It can also Sleep Powder or Seed on Aegislash. Venusaur also doesn't fear SubToxic set. Something similar to a counter.
Zapdos: Defensive set is 2HKOed by SBall, SDefensive got 3HKOed by it. It can do several damages w/Heat Wave or just spam TBolt + Roost if SDefensive. Both sets can threat SD set and sub is always broken by just TBolt. Check/Counter.
Other tiers' mon that can do something vs Aegi:
(It enters on every move bar SSword and OHKOes Shield Form w/EQ. Only Balloon Aegi totally walls it if it ain't got WCharge or U-Turn)
(SDefensive is 3HKOed by SBall and Foul Play does damage. Immune to Toxic)
(AV set is 3HKOed by SBall and it does damage w/Knock Off - Regenerator helps)
(3HKOed by SBall, EQ OHKOes Blade form and does huge damage to Shield)
(3HKOed by SBall, Restalker wins 1v1)
(3HKOed by SBall, Dark Pulse 2HKOes Shield Form)
(It can enter on special moves but SSword can 2HKO it)
(Its ability let it wall entirely Aegislash bar Flash Cannon or Toxic. It can seed it bypassing Shield)
(I laughed but lookin at calcs, it checks Aegi and kills it)
(Take an hit and kill back. Sacred Fire doesn't get drop by KS; AV Entei is 3hkoed by every Aegi's move, CB Sacred Fire OHKOes Shield form)
(It walls Aegi bar Iron Head)
(SDef is 3hkoed and kills back w/EPower or EQ. It also got Recover)
(Ssword doesn't OHKO and it kills back with stabs, though missing OHKO on Shield Form with every move)
(Good check, Specs Dark Pulse is very close to OHKO Aegi's Shield form)
(Checks SBall and trap Aegi or KO it with stabs; it gotta be careful to shield tho)
(3HKOed by SBall, it can recover on Aegi and do several damage with Scald and maybe burn it)
(3HKOed by SSword, it can win 1v1 thanks to Recover. It loses to SD set but w/e)
(Defensive is 3HKOed by SSword and it's so close to OHKO w/EQ)
(SDef get 3HKOed and kills back w/EQ or Knock Off)
(3HKOed by SBall, it CM/Rests on Aegi and win 1v1)
(SSword 3HKOes w/lefties recovery, Wish+Protect+Foul play let it win 1v1)
(Yeah this AV thing takes hits and kills back w/Drill Run or Knock Off)
(It walls Aegi bar SSword/Iron Head and does good damages w/SBall)
(It can wall Aegi, Spore it and break its sub or do big damage on it w/Foul Play)
King's Shield... ok the drop, but it's not so reliable. What to do when facing a statup sweeper? Shielding and let it dance? Or attack on statup with the risk of being killed so easily? Good stalls haven't big problems with this mon due to the fact it isn't "uncounterable" neither with its mixed set (the most dangerous set imho but also the most predictable).. SDef Amoonguss (w/ Foul Play), Mandibuzz, Chesnaught, SDef Hippowdon, AV Azumarill, AV Conkeldurr, Heatran, also Ferrothorn (lol) or SubToxic, walled by Chansey/Blissey, MagicGuard Clefable, Taunt Mandibuzz, HB Umbreon, Amoonguss, also MVenu w/HP Fire or EQ tanks n kills. Also Altaria does, lol. And every Dark Pokèmon walls it, Bisharp as first. And I forgot a lot of threats.
I have to say also SubToxic really needs a Wish support, its lack of recoveries doesnt make it an excellent wall in the long time as many other pokèmon (w/recover moves or traits) can do
I honestly think that if you have serious troubles with Aegislash is not a problem to be solved by banning the monster but improving your teambuilding (and battling?) skills.
Ok Aegislash is one of the mon you have always to think to threat when building, but what mon doesn't? Mega Mawile? Mega Pinsir? Mega Charizards? Keldeo? Landorus? The mighty every used Thundurus? The unbreakable Mega Venusaur? Azumarill? Mega Gardevoir? Mega Medicham? What's the threatening Smogon wants to do to all these mons? Banning? If I want to play BW I just play BW lol I think this thing should go in a wrong way and that should make the tier less likeable to play but that's just my stupid opinion
I'll reach the requirements to vote No Ban. Of course.
SD set, missing the 2HKO w/ SSneak at Adamant +2 and being killed by every move in Blade Form. It can check and sometimes "counter", revengekiller.
Other tiers' mon that can do something vs Aegi:
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Erm, what is this? Did the Deo suspect even conclude yet? And if it did it couldnt have been more than a week why are we suspecting so soon? And can someone please tell me what makes Aegislash banworthy? I've never once felt this thing was overpowered or "overcenteralizing" or anything.
I'll make a more productice post when my computer stops being broken. (I still brought up valid points despite the lack of content so please dont delete my post srsly im on my phone cut me a little slack.)
I'll make a more productice post when my computer stops being broken. (I still brought up valid points despite the lack of content so please dont delete my post srsly im on my phone cut me a little slack.)
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