np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

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I've agreed with Smogon on every case except for this, and i usually never try to get into a forum discussion of any kind cause i hate conflict of any kind, but for aegislash i have decided to make an exception.

Aegislash is indeed a powerful Pokemon, it's amazing defense, and it's amazing offense is to be admired, but there's many Pokemon, and many techniques that can be used to stop an aegislash in it's tracks as i will say the following:

Defient Ability Bisharp: For king shield will only make him stronger.

Physical wall Foul Play mandibuzz, umbreon, Klefki: because after 1-3 foul plays will kill any aegislash

Breloom and amoonguss with spore, vivillion with compound eyes sleep powder : because putting it to sleep will crush it.

Bullet proof chestnaught: for shadow ball or any physical attacks from aegislash will barely harm him.

Flamebody volcarona: any aegislash will be afraid of fighting that, especially after a single quiver dance

prankster sableye: For a taunt along with foul play will hurt aegislash very much and maybe even with the use of will-o-wisp to cripple it.

life orbed max attack diggersby : cause i know from experience, and aegislash will not survive an earthquake from that thing.

Multiscale Dragonite: it can take hits from aegislash and in a fight, dragonite can win.

Trick or Switcheroo: cause if you give that thing a choice scarf, it'll be crippled very badly.

Intelligence: because if you want to be good at competitive, you really need a decent IQ to get far.

Aegislash is tough, yeah, duh, but do you honestly think aegislash can make it far in Ubers? no, that thing will be destroyed, and if you disagree with me, why don't you do a few battles in ubers with aegislash.

a few of these ideas may not be commonly used, but if you're going to continue on planning to use the same crappy old tactics that everyone else in OU uses, then you can't blame aegislash for your loss, but your own.

Thank you for reading and if they're are any grammatical errors i apologize.
A couple of flaws in your argument that I would like to point out, though I generally agree with you for the most part.
1) How a mon plays out in ubers has no effect on whether or not it gets booted from OU. If it's deemed broken or ban worthy in OU, it goes to Ubers simple as that.
2) The problem with bringing up counters in most cases is the fact that it doesn't always work like that in a practical sense. A lot of people do it to justify an argument and I don't blame them but it's for the most part a 6v6 game not a 1v1 game. There will always be other factors that come into play.

Mainly the reason I agree with you is simply a lot of people don't want to really deviate from the norm. You don't have to necessarily use terrible stuff to handle something but there are plenty of options to get around certain issues. I can see what people are saying on the pro ban side but some of it from what I've seen in battles and from discussion in general seems to be overhyped or catered to their own personal agenda more so than the agenda of a balanced meta game.
 
This is going to be a good suspect, likely a really close one. I am still unsure whether I want Aegislash gone or not, and I think I'll still have my doubts by the end of the suspect testing.

Aegislash hits really hard, with an excellent offensive STAB and good coverage options. He's dangerously unpredictable; by that, I mean you have to initially guess it's set, and getting it wrong can lead to bad results to varying degrees. He's very bulky also, with good defensive stats* and, more importantly, a really good defensive typing. King's Shield is just stupid.

None of those characteristics alone is even close to warrant a ban (and they can be seen separately on many other pokémon, except for the last one). However, when you add them together, it's clear why a suspect test is justifiable. When you add in the fact that he centralizes the metagame a lot, it gets really tough to decide.

* I've seen many people trying to justify a ban based on him being extremely strong both offensively and defensively. While this is true somewhat, it seems like people ignore the fact that his bulkiness is situational. I think the circumstances of his bulk is something that needs more discussion; if he had permanent 150s across offenses and defenses, he would be undoubtedly broken.

Really looking forward to see how this one plays out.
 
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Oml people are saying it shouldn't be banned because it has counters. Please enlighten the ou meta players as to what they are. Mandibuzz? LO flash cannon. Chansaught? Sub toxic. Bisharp? Secret sword. It's borked as, IMO it's
More borked than the deos were, so shut up about its counters because it has none for all it's sets.
ok you act like aegislash has more than 4 move slots it can use, an aegislash can't counter everything you know, don't be so one-sided <_<
 

Mew2

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You're taking this and trying to force it into an entirely different context to make it sound ridiculous, when quite honestly, you're just making yourself sound ridiculous. If you disagree, fine. I can respect that. I don't respect the so-called "logic" that you're attempting to use to make yourself sound smart. I'm talking about banning one move entirely from the metagame. Banning Sticky Web on Shuckle alone would be a complex ban which would be completely unnecessary. I'm not talking about a complex ban. Aegislash is the only one that can learn King's Shield, so banning King's Shield altogether is enough. Froslass is in no way OP. Not even close with or without Spikes. I can't emphasize enough that you just don't see how simple this would be.

Aegislash is the ONLY pokemon that can learn King's Shield. My proposal is NOT for a complex ban. Banning the move King's Shield is quite simple and I guess you just can't see that.

EDIT: Also, kid? Really? I'm probably older than you. Just being honest.
Lol salty guys are salty First the ball, Aegis isn't the ONLY pokemon who learns KS, Smeargle gets it and in STABmons every Steel type gets it so its not as simple as you think. Second, Smogon just bans moves that are luck relliant like Swagger or Minimize and KS doesn't rely on luck. Third, a lot of Aegislash this days don't even run KS so saying that KS is what makes Aegis good isn't true. Finally, banning KS on Aegis won't make him auto UU and he will still shape the metagame forcing M-Pinsir to run E-que instead of CC, Hawlucha being BL and so on.
 
Aegislash is good so are several mega pokes talonflame as well as the genies in ou. Mega maw forces 50/50s with sub SD and suckerpunch char has two megas which can be used and one of which char-x can run multiple sets to handle would be counters. We then have other megas like pinsir and gyarados whose megas can be devastating if they get a chance to setup. Thundurus can run a crazy number of sets to take on its defensive counters as well Insta stop any dd sweep from zard or tyranitar thanks to prankster twave it also checks mega pinsir due to its great typing. Next we have Lando who dismantles stall thanks to his sheer force life orb boosted attacks great coverage a and access to boosting moves. These pokemon can all be considered broken in a vacuum as they destroy a great deal of the meta but all of them can deal with each other decently and can get by would be checks and counters with appropriate move or set wisp on zard destroys common counters in Lando-t and azu grass knot thundy destroys hippo and quagsire switchins. Broken checking broken has never been argument for banning a poke but after the introduction of mega evolution as well as power creep we can see that it is kinda needed. Aegislash handles 90% of all thundy sets while being a decent answer to certain mega pokes as well that aren't considered completely broken as aegi and talonflame handle them rather well such as mega Hera mega Cham and Mega garde. Logically if aegi goes then thundy has a high chance of leaving as well. Then we have mega pokes like zard-x and mega Ttar that will ruin peoples lives once thundy is gone. Why should we go on what seems like a witch hunt when the meta is really diverse and one playstyle is not dominating compared to BW in which weather dominated and had to be prepped for. Overpowered sun and rain tactics had to be dealt with in teambuilding as well as cobble together a way to win a battle this made teambuilding awfully monotonous and boring.
Is aegislash on the same level as torn-t in bw I do not believe so. I also think banning aegis will be a gateway ban of sorts causing a dramatic shift away from what xy currently is. I do not want to lose a ton of pokemon over a ban happy group trying to find the right meta when it is pretty decent that way it is currently.

P.S. I usually don't get involved in these suspects as I just enjoy playing competitively and find the choices the community makes to be the right ones. This however I can see being the start of a slippery slope especially since ORAS is just around the corner as well as other potentially destructive megas such metagross and sableye who aegi could potentially help with.
 
Damn this thread has only been up a few hours and you guys are already on page 6!
Alright, let me briefly give my thoughts on this. I've wanted an Aegis suspect for a long time now. It's just too versatile and to figure out which of its many sets its running, you often have to let something take a big hit. It effectively has Base 150 Attack, Special Attack, Defense and Special Defense. It has a nice, unique typing. It has a large viable movepool, including solid boosting, STAB priority, and a signature move that simultaneously protects it from attacks, allows it to swap from its offensive to its defensive form, and cuts the Attack of those using contact moves in half, allowing Aegis to easily kill them or use them as set up bait, assuming they stay in. For this reason, I can't think of any physical sweeper lacking Earthquake that can even be considered a semi reliable check to Aegis (not to mention Air Balloon is a thing.)

In Shield Form, Aegis has great bulk allowing it to live even powerful super effective attacks. Using such attacks also carries the risk of activating Weakness Policy, doubling Aegislash's already massive attack stats. I'll use Aegislash's fellow OU Ghost, Gengar, with its massive base 130 Special Attack, for calcs.

252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 186-218 (57.4 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 186-218 (71.2 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 242-283 (92.7 - 108.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

^Even Timid, Life Orb Gengar has less than a 50% chance of OHKOing fully offensive Aegi when it's in Shield form.

Aegis forces switches like nobody's business, and yet nothing reliably switches in on it.

Mandibuzz is probably the best answer the meta has for it and it does its job pretty well, but even Mandi can have trouble switching in on Aegis:

252 SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 175-208 (41.3 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

SubToxic is also an issue, as Mandi can't switch in on it without risking poison, obviously.

Chesnaught is in a similar but slightly worse situation than Mandi. Subseed Ches (I may be the only one who uses that lol) laughs at all of Aegislash's physical attacks and is immune to Shadow Ball, allowing it to stall many Aegislash out with ease. However, it's cleanly 2HKOed by Flash Cannon and easily stalled out by the SubToxic set.

252 SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chesnaught: 239-282 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chesnaught: 202-238 (53.1 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Mandibuzz and Chesnaught are perhaps Aegislash's best "counters" (I use the term loosely in this case) and even they cannot switch in on Aegis without fearing Toxic or Flash Cannon.

TL;DR: AEGISLASH IS DAMN NEAR IMPOSSIBLE TO WALL RELIABLY DUE TO ITS VERSATILITY AND EVEN CHECKING/REVENGE KILLING IT IS OFTEN DIFFICULT THANKS TO ITS GREAT BULK, PRIORITY, AND KING'S SHIELD'S TURNING MANY MATCHUPS INTO A GUESSING GAME.

I certainly try to keep an open mind during suspect tests but I doubt my opinion will change drastically enough that I will not vote "ban" when the time comes, assuming I bother to get reqs.
 
I'm strongly against this suspect test. People have been saying Aegislash will eventually be banned since before XY was even released and I honestly never saw why. Yes, it does have a rather big number of sets and some of them have different checks and counters, but so do a lot of Pokemon and that never meant something is broken. You could argue the "number" of sets is the thing that got Genesect banned, but it wasn't the only thing. Aegislash is indeed meta-defining, and one could argue that it's also overcentralizing, but then again so were a lot of other things in the past, and so are a lot of things right now other than Aegislash. Why did Assault Vest Azumarill spike up in usage? Keldeo. Why did Excadrill suddenly start running Mold Breaker earlier in the metagame over like, Sand Rush to abuse opponent's sand or one's own sand? Rotom-W and other Levitating mons. Why does Garchomp sometimes have Fire Blast? Why does Latios use Psyshock over Psychic? etc. Every Pokemon in the metagame can force something else to use a certain move, item, or moveset to have a way to counter said Pokemon; and as far as I know, that's the definition of overcentralizing, to make Pokemon [People] feel like they're forced to run something specific just because a certain other Pokemon exists. It's true that some Pokemon can be more overcentralizing than other Pokemon and some of them can restrict teambuilding like Shuckle did in RU, or like Mega Kangaskhan did in OU before it got banned, but I don't think that's the case for Aegislash. You could argue that it's the only reason for Scizor to be running Knock Off (I've heard quite a few people say that on PS), and while it's probably a big reason its not the only one. Knock Off is one of the best moves in general and really great to have, and Aegislash is definitely not the only reason one would run Knock Off on their Scizor.

Right now, Aegislash is holding many Pokemon back from their full potential; Mega Gardevoir and Mega Medicham are two examples. But so is Talonflame, who is pretty much the reason Volcarona dropped this generation and the reason so many other Pokemon aren't seen, isn't that overcentralizing in the same way that Aegislash is?

I haven't read much of the thread so I don't know the reasoning behind some people's opinions about wanting Aegislash gone, but I'll say it anyway. I guess the reason why Aegislassh can be identified as broken is the amazing defensive and offensive typing, good movepool, King's Shield, and the amazing stat spread. Those combined don't necessarily make Aegislash broken. The typing still gives it weaknesses to Ground- and Fire-type moves, two of which are common in OU from my experience, and with strong users in Excadrill and Charizard, as two examples. Its movepool is good however, and I guess I can't really argue about that, and so is its stat spread. But again, those are never a reason for a Pokemon to be broken. King's Shield on the other hand, can cause some mind-games, but mind-games is Pokemon anyway, since it all comes down to prediction and prediction can go both ways.

Aegislash is a metagame defining Pokemon, and as overcentralizing as any other Pokemon in the metagame, and I would compare it to 4th gen Scizor really, who was also #1 in usage all the time and was centralizing in possibly the same way, and it also created mindgames with U-turn.
What are some of these other pokemon that can run numerous sets to beat all of its counters? Sure other pokemon can run other sets, but none of them can beat all of its counters by just switching a few moves.

Its literally holding back so many pokemon: Hawlucha, Starmie, Megacham, Terrakion, basically any psychic type, etc... Literally the thing has killed fighting spam, destroys most psychic types viability. It forces pokemon such as Mega Pinsir to run EQ. OU runs around Aegis. If its not overcenteralizing then I don't know what is?

Talonflame is somewhat centralizing, but it usually can only switch in once or twice per match. Get locked into a bravebird vs something that resists it then switch out. Aegis can come in numerous times throughout a match and is almost always guaranteed to do massive damage to the opposing team.

If you build a team that is Aegis weak you will lose a lot of games. You basically have to build your team to stop him.

Aegis laughs at Excadrill with air baloon and spinners in general (par Mega Blastoise). Even without it can nail Zard and Drill hard on switch in with shadow ball. Then it can possibly kill them with shadow sneak.

I do think this is coming rather soon, but whats done is done and its time for this thing to be banned.

Also please people read the thread, i'm already seeing several arguments repeated.
 
Honestly, I think most of the ban arguments are kind of a stretch. The burden of proof lies on the pro-ban party, and so far I just haven't seen anything to make me confident it's worth a ban.

50/50 - Pokemon is full of risk/reward scenarios, this just forcing both players to get better at it. It's absolutely nothing like swagplay, which was literally a coin flip, so I don't see the problem.

Centralizing - Heatran is much more at fault than aegislash imo for the prevalence of EQ. Ghost and dark are hugely viable types regardless of Aegislash's omnipresense, and fire is usually used as coverage for things like ferrothorn, not Aegislash. Do you need a check, or maybe even two? Sure, but I have rehearsed plans and back up plans for every pokemon on the ranking board, and you'd be lying to me if you claimed you didn't too.

Versatility - If Aegislash is banned, it better be for this reason. Right now however the alternate sets are just especially effective lures that could potentially turn into a problem, but it's too soon after deoxys to know. I'm going to wait til the suspect test gets underway to make judgements. Who knows, I might even actually put the time in to qualify this time.

Edit, sorry -Clone- , basically what you said, but I kept it in more general terms.
 
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Why is a Aegislash's suspect test being implemented before a Talonflame's one? A freaking 120 base power priority move IS meta breaking.
Anyway. While it's probably my favorite 6th gen mon, I do have to admit that it's too good; a pokémon with 150 BP in Atk and SAtk is never something healthy. And, to be honest, when Starmie went down to UU kind of made me doubt the reason. But then I remembered: Aegislash.
Its amazing versatility (remember those 150 BP on Atk and SAtk?) makes it sort of unpredictable (not as much as Charizard, though, because, although you can sort of predict the Mega that it's gonna be at team preview, you'll probably be wrong), although Mandi can deal with it unless it's the sub/toxic moveset, but that set is, in my opinion, not as threatening as the offensive one with Shadow Ball and Sacred Sword. So you can say that the answers are very limited for that mon. So, yeah, that's another reason to call it "very good", even "broken", but there are so many things already that centralizes the metagame (Zard Y, X, Talonfuckingflame) that it's just... whatever.
On the other hand, I've seen some comments about Mega Cross not being as good or even good if Aegislash is around. I mean, that's straight up wrong. Mega Cross destroys 8 out of 10 teams that you'll face while laddering, and Aegislash won't appreciate a knock off. Sure, King Shield shenanigans are a thing, but there is where a good player comes into play.
Oh, by the way: Spdef Gliscor is probably the full counter to this thing. So, yeah, it does have a counter. The thing is that there's just one to use.
With that being said, I do agree that very many things would shine on if Aegislash leaves the OU grounds, therefore, again, I vote yes to that possible ban.
PS: Suspect test Talonflame. Please.
 

Clone

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Damn. Within the span of thirty minutes theres 5 pages of posts that Im not gonna read (probs more once Im done typing but w/e). Anyways, to continue on what I said earlier Ill lay down what everyone is saying: overcentralization. Is Aegis overcentralizing? Yeah, pretty much. If you argue against it youre a dumbass. An Aegis check is necessary on any competent team. Aside from that is its versatility and its 50-50s. Ill be focusing on these three things.

Overcentralization:

Aegis is the best Pokemon in the meta. Simple as that. On the higher ladder you see it everywhere (tho never on the lower ladder :/). That basically means that you have to keep it in mind when youre teambuilding. Im hard pressed to say that this is restrictive, simply because EQ and Fire Blast is a thing, and are easy to fit on a multitude of mons. They dont trigger KS and are reliable (fuck FB Hax) moves that have a consistent damage output and hit other things aside from Aegis. The problem most people have with this though is that the 60 / 150 / 150 defenses when switching in and while in shield forme, which means that it takes things like LO Mamos EQ or ScarfTrans FB to OHKO, which is understandable. Coupled with his low speed, hes one of the few pokes that are truly able to utilize this to their advantage (the closest thing is a slow VoltTurn for momentum), which is also understandable. However, this comes with a drawback: no reliable recovery outside of leftovers, which leads to somewhat of a reliance on KS. Please note that I am not referring to the LO 4 Attacks or any set that uses speed to surprise things. Im referring to the crumbler, which is the most common set Ive run into and probably top 3 overall. Anyways, this KS reliance leads into my next point which is 50-50s.

50-50s:

In general, these happen all the time in every game. Its why prediction is a thing in mons. Is he gonna switch? Does he have a coverage move that can put me in a disadvantageous position? So on and so forth. Now lets get to Aegis in itself. There are two types of 50-50s I see in him: Figuring out the set, and KS. Ill start off with figuring out the set. Team preview is a thing, and that can be a way to tell what set hes running. This isnt 100% accurate, and I know that. However, thats not always the case. Sometimes you have to figure that out in battle, which can put you at a disadvantage if you predict wrong. Maybe you send in Mandi and it turns out that its SubToxic. Maybe you send out Bisharp and its the Crumbler with SS. These scenarios happen all the time. However, these scenarios happen with other things too. For example, You might send in TTar against Thundy because he usually walls him decently well. he then reveals that he has Superpower and is a mixed set. You have now lost TTar and learned your opponents set. Another example: You have, say, a Tyranitar out that has just KOed a mon. Your opponent then sends out Garchomp (we'll assume no flying type for the sake of this example). You have Keldeo waiting in the wings, and you know you can take a hit from Chomp and force him out. You switch to Keldeo and Chomp EQs. Okay, youre good, right? Wrong. Turns out its Scarfchomp brought in mid game and you have a dead Keldeo after the second EQ. You lose a mon and in return gain knowledge of your opponents set. This goes for other things, so Ill get back to Aegis. Its the same concept, but he has a few more tricks up his sleeve than most others. Im not 100% convinced thats a problem. Just like other pokes, his set determines his counters. Not sure if thats a big deal. I feel that the meta has adapted to his presence well enough to it to be second nature to have something that can handle him.

Now Ill touch on the other 50-50s in regards to KS. Like what I said in my previous post, Kings Shield requires prediction on both sides of the field. However, the only time Aegis has a distinct advantage is against a non sucker punch reliant physical attacker not named Bisharp (cuz of dat Defiant). When that is the case, it is truly 50-50 scenarios (ill refer to Aegis in Blade Forme for this. Do I attack and resist the drop? Do I risk using a move hes immune to? Or do I switch out entirely to a much better match up? These are all things that are running through the mind of the person who isnt using Aegislash. On the opposite side of the spectrum, the Aegis user has arguably a harder decision to make. If he predicts correctly, he has a distinct advantage against his opponent. When he doesnt, hes most likely gonna be losing Aegislash entirely. When the non Aegis user mispredicts, hes pretty much forced to switch. Ill admit that loses a lot of momentum, but honestly, that player has an easier time than if the Aegis loses the prediction battle. The only other situation thats similar to this is set up sweepers who opt to set up on a mispredict, which may or may not be a problem depending on the Pokemon (ex: MegaDos lives a SS + Sneak and can proceed to sweep, while say, something like SD Chomp loses a lot of his health and is crippled for the match). Any other scenario doesnt matter, because its either KS vs EQ, or KS vs. a special attack. Of course there are sets that forgo this move entirely, which is where his versatility comes into play.

Versatility:

Aegis has many sets, ranging from lolStance Dance to SubToxic. Each has its own checks and counters. For example, Stance Dance is shut down by Mandi and a burn. Not a great example cuz that set is utter shit, but this is the case for all of his other sets. 4 Attack LO is beaten by anything faster than it as more often than not Aegis will have attacked already. He either dies to the incoming hit or switches, which loses momentum. The Crumbler set (KS, Sneak, Iron Head/Sword, Shadow Ball) is walled by bulky grounds suck as Hippo and Garchomp (more of a hard check for chomp tho), as well as Mandibuzz. Other than that, it does its job, which is to break walls. The last set that Ill touch on is SubToxic, which is an interesting set. It forgoes his offensive potential almost completely asde from Shadow Ball and utilizes a Sub and Kings Shield to Toxic stall. This beats Aegis's normal counters, but is left helpless against Bisharp (the drop from S Ball favors Bisharp btw), TTar running speed, and pretty much any steel type that doesnt mind taking a Shadow Ball). There are more set out there that I wont touch on due to a lack of experience with them, but its in favor of the versatility argument for the pro ban side. However, with all this versatility comes with its drawbacks. Once youre opponent figures out the set, theyll be prepared for it for the rest of the match. You might argue that it gives the Aegis player an advantage in the match, but Aegis isnt the only mon that does that like I mentioned earlier in this post.

tl;dr (yeah, didnt expect to write an essay on this) Aegis may be overcentralizing in that he requires a check/counter to him on /viable/ teams, but I dont find it restrictive to teambuilding nor do I feel that hes OP like Mega Luke, Mega Mom, or BP were. Im still on the side of Do Not Ban, but like I said earlier, that may change.

PS: If anyone typed something like this while I was away, shoot me in the face right now.
 
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MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
Tbh, I think that Aegislash fits more in the description of an "unliked" mon that it does in that of a "broken" mon. We all are aware that it is a top-tier threat; that is why I am focusing on the relatively overlooked "bad" side of Aegislash. Nobody needs an argument as to why it should be in S-Rank (note, though, that S-Rank is not directly indicative of ban-worthy). While strong, the base power of its moves lets it down. For reference, a Timid Life Orb Keldeo Hydro Pump does 10% more damage to a neutral target than a Modest Life Orb Aegislash Shadow Ball. It will always struggle against typical stallish components such as Mandibuzz and Chansey, and its lack of recovery combined with the relative lack of opportunity cost associated with sacking a member of an offensive team means that offensive teams can typically dispose of it with about the same amount of trouble as any other top-tier mon. Aegislash is versatile, but each set is specialized. Max speed Head Smash disposes of Mandibuzz and Skarm, but it decreases its bulk significantly against offensive teams. Sub Toxic is great for dealing with typical trouble mons like Hippowdon and Mandibuzz, but it also struggles to do much to offense, or even a team with a pink-blob cleric. Life Orb is great for dismantling offensive and balanced teams, but it decreases its longevity against stall achetypes. Its typing is lovely, but the numerous ground types put a damper on things. It does have a psuedo-720 BST, but it is just that: pseudo. After it attacks, it is forced to King's Shield, which is certainly easy to abuse. King's Shield is definitely a primary factor contributing to the community's annoyance towards it.

Aegislash is certainly more annoying than it is outright overpowered in my opinion. However, simple "annoyance," in this case, is certainly grounds for a potential ban, because the cause of that annoyance is 50/50's. Ideally, Aegislash would be forced to King's Shield after attacking, allowing a sweeper a setup opportunity or a wall a chance to status Aegislash or recover. Who would risk halving their damage output by attacking Aegislash? But what if the Aegislash user predicts the obvious set up or heal, and decides to attack instead? Typically, that will result in yet another dead or crippled mon. Thus, both users have two options: attack or don't attack. If they both choose attack or they both choose don't attack, Aegislash loses. If one attacks and the other doesn't, Aegislash wins.

These 50/50s are unique compared to something like Gen 5 Landorus-I (who was banned). The user without a Landorus carried the bulk of the pressure. If Landorus U-Turned as the opponent switched out, the Landorus player gained a huge amount of momentum. If Landorus used Earth Power and the opponent didn't switch out, predicting the U-Turn, the opposing pokemon was KOed. These were the instances in which Landorus "won." However, Landorus' losses were much less devastating to the Landorus user than its wins were to the opponent. If Landorus U-Turned and the opponent stayed in, Landorus lost 10% of its health, 22% if Stealth Rocks are in play, and the Landorus user could switch to a pokemon who can handle the opposing mon. If Landorus used Earth Power and the opponent switched to a ground resist/immunity, the opponent either took some or no damage, and Landorus was forced to switch out, again to a mon that could handle the opposing mon. To recap: if Landorus wins the 50/50, it either gains an incredible amount of momentum or KOes an opposing mon. If Landorus loses the 50/50, the Landorus takes a bit of recoil or the opponent gains a small amount of momentum. Almost every time, Landorus would come out on top. For this reason, Landorus was banned.

Returning to Aegislash, the 50/50s caused by it are relatively pure. Both the Aegislash user and the opponent face an almost equal risk of either losing momentum or getting KOed. This suggests that Aegislash will be winning far less on average than a mon like Landorus, making it less outright broken by these standards. However, it also means that these 50/50s are literally a guessing game. They cannot be predicted. They are simply left up to chance with either side having an equal opportunity to lose completely as a result of luck. While Aegislash may not be overpowered, the fact that it has the potential to create such a luck-based occurrence makes it toxic to the metagame. Added to the fact that it is an incredibly competent pokemon even without King's Shield, Aegislash, in my opinion, deserves to be banned.

tl;dr:
Aegislash is not outright overpowered. However, it creates scenarios that are almost 100% luck-based. This makes it unhealthy to the meta, warranting a ban.
 
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King Shield is ridiculous, and IMO what pushes Aegislash over the edge. Not only does Aegislash dictating what pokemon you can run on your team, it dictates what moves you are allowed to kill it with. It makes Aegislash a scout, pivot, and wall all on the same set, in addition to being the best spinblocker in the game. It screws over its "counters" like Deo-S, requiring you to run multiple pokemon that can kill it with moves it allows you to kill it with, which makes playing around its opponent that much easier. You can't even reliably pursuit trap this damn thing.

I'm sorry about not writing much else but I don't think there's anything else to say that hasn't already been said. I honestly haven't seen a pokemon like this since Gen2 Snorlax.
 
I am gona drop my simple opinion on this:

I find that Aegislash is somewhat healthy to the meta due of its verstality opening up a lot of room to the mind game factor of the game.
With aegislash being able to run so many sets, making it a wildcard of the team, gives it a fine touch.
If a pokemon would just run same old same old predictable sets, it really makes the risk vs reward factor really dull, you know? When you're against aegislash, this really spikes the risk vs reward factor up to eleven.
If every aegislash ran the start of meta's SD, king's + 2 cover perfect neutral attacks, sure, it wouldn't have this factor. But now that it has a plenty of options as metagame has moved on and on, it will make you ask "what do I send against this when I see it the first time?"

Infact, I find it that the meta could do with more pokemon like aegislash that are able to run wild variety of sets to keep the mental games fresh than just making it a calculation math match. Mons that can be working in many areas, allowing player to bluff and make the other player actually think how to react.

It is a bit of a shame that it's typing does make it a bit too good at this job tho.

I hope people take this into factor rather than thinking "bluh bluh, match up, luck based, it wasn't the set i thought"
 
Can somebody update the first post with links to "IMPORTANT MUST READ ENTRIES HERE" such as "Why 4MSS actually is a sign of brokenness", that way we won't have this repeat with people asking the same things every 3 pages the way the BP threads did?

As for Aegislash - I can't believe that after being the top, most used pokemon in OU since the start of XY, we're still discovering new sets for it. And we still haven't found a surefire way to counter it. It is, literally, a pokemon that doesn't have counters, thanks to its multiple viable sets. The fact that there isn't even consensus on what the BEST set is for Aegislash has to be a sign - I've seen people post in this thread about how King's Shield and Stance Change is the only thing making it broken, but I've seen people argue that KS is the worst move to run on Aegislash, and you should instead run Sub+Toxic, or 4 attacks... and their arguments all work. But what's even more complex is that all of those different, viable sets can wreck havoc not only because they have entirely different counters, but also because they all could mostly run on the same team. It's not a matter of "Oh, this is a stall team, therefore this Aegislash is probably Sub+Toxic" because you could then get mangled by a KS Aegi, or a win-condition attacking Aegislash, or a Bisharp lure Aegislash.

I'd argue that Aegislash's best move is Shadowball, not King's Shield. The threat of that move coming from that Special Attack puts so much pressure, and by the time you realize that the Aegislash isn't even running Shadowball you're probably too late.
 

Jukain

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If you're saying a 50/50 involves skill, then please stop posting because you obviously don't understand what skill is. A 50/50 is literally pure guesswork, not indicative of skill whatsoever. Excessive 50/50s as created by Aegislash lead to the meta we have now which is dominated by such guesswork. This is not 'mind games' this is 'mindless garbage'.
 
Please don't bring usage stats into this first of all.
Why not? The 1825 usage stats show exactly what good players are using. The players that are at 1825 on the ladder are the people who will be able to make reqs, so you can't just pretend like they're bad because they don't play tournaments. Theorymon of Aegislash being too unpredictable is all well and good, but in practise the majority of people don't vary from the standard Kings Shield/Shadow Ball/Sacred Sword/Shadow Sneak by more than 1 move. Swords Dance is run only 20% of the time, SubToxic 14% of the time, head smash less than 10%, etc. This is because the standard set is the best set in general. Things like Head Smash and SubToxic are lures, designed to beat specific counters but in the process open themselves up to other counters, or making them worse in general. This is not to say that I think Aegislash has 4mss. 4mss is when a pokemon needs more than 4 moves to work well, which isn't like Aegislash at all because it operates amazingly with shadow ball+anything basically. My point is that people should stop saying it's uncounterable, because it can't run 10 moves at once. I bet this argument will come up again if we test thundurus: "It can run knock off+superpower so chansey doesn't counter it" "It can run psychic/HP Flying so Venusaur/Amoonguss doesn't counter it" etc. It's silly, because while in theory it is this unpredictable pokemon, in practise most people run the standard set with maybe 1 variation, because that is the set that works best against the most things.

Please refer to this post. I addressed why this 4mss argument is garbage and doesn't prove that something shouldn't be banned.
Pretty sure what he means is what I'm saying: people should stop saying there are no counters to Aegislash because of flash cannon, substitute, toxic, head smash etc; there are, it just depends on the set and that people should stop acting like Aegislash is uncounterable.


Not directed at the above posts obviously, but I think a lot of people are just hopping on the bandwagon here. Aegislash is powerful, versatile, centralizing, and forces 50/50s, but I haven't seen a good argument for it actually being broken in this thread.
 
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Can we make this quick and ban the fuck out of Aegislash?

Basically 150 defenses + offenses... the thing had a win rate of like 75% in SPL. I think that says enough. Aegislash limits team building like no tomorrow, you need to start from square 1 if you don't have an Aegislash switch in... which happens often.
Congrats on post #1000, but I strongly disagree. You treat it as if it a BST of 720, but that simply isn't a realistic portrayal.
 
Aegislash was always a Pokemon I felt that, if it was a little more powerful and a little more defensive it would go straight to Ubers. I've used Aegislash quite a lot and I think it can be checked by a lot of Pokemon including Garchomp-M (and Scarfedchomp too), Bisharp (cliche I know), Tyranitar, Charizard X/Y and Talonflame, all common Pokemon to find in OU. It's basically a Deoxys-A and Deoxys-D depending on the form you have with it's signature ability "Stance Change", but in it's attack form both of his base stats for Atk & Sp. Atk are 30 points less than Deoxys-A and in Defense Form it's 10 points less than Deoxys-D, as well as not having the speed as Deoxys-A & Deoxys-D. If it were to be banned the OU metagame, some Pokemon such as Gardevoir, Mew, Celebi and Medicham would be more viable. Aegislash is a very good Pokemon, but not quite so good it's Uber-worthy, Some Pokemon can kill it even when it's in the Defense Form and with Swords Dance it can sweep at times but there are many Pokemon it has to watch out for. As well as no reliable recovery outside of Leftovers, and it's very predictable since once it uses a move you can pretty much know what set it's using.

DON'T BAN
 
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Can we make this quick and ban the fuck out of Aegislash?

Basically 150 defenses + offenses... the thing had a win rate of like 75% in SPL. I think that says enough. Aegislash limits team building like no tomorrow, you need to start from square 1 if you don't have an Aegislash switch in... which happens often.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I just checked because I was interested and:
2 | Aegislash | 52 | 30% | 54%
54% win rate.
 
Well, I went into this discussion believing that I was gonna vote against the banning of Aegislash. However, due to the very good arguments presented by many users, I realize now that the main problem with Aegislash is not that it is extremely versatile, powerful, or bulky. It is that the combination of these things coupled with its great typing cause it to be very overcentralizing. I used to believe that that was a good thing, but I realize that Aegislash was almost single-handedly keeping the Deos from going to Ubers and stopping MegaCham and MegaGarde from becoming top-tier threats. Now that the Deos are gone, there is no reason for Aegi to be in OU.

I'm sorry Aegislash, I love you, but I will vote for your ban.

The next best spinblocker: Air Balloon Gengar
 

Karxrida

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Honestly people, true counters have been a dead concept for a while now. The game has introduced so many Mons with so many moves that "true" countering is pretty hard if not impossible. Also, is it really that hard to throw the best attack in the game on your team to deal with something like this? People seem to forget that all of Aegislash's checks are completely viable and not niche since they can fulfill other roles. I don't see how this thing is overcentrallizing when you should probably have an Earthquake spammer on your team anyway.
 
If you're saying a 50/50 involves skill, then please stop posting because you obviously don't understand what skill is. A 50/50 is literally pure guesswork, not indicative of skill whatsoever. Excessive 50/50s as created by Aegislash lead to the meta we have now which is dominated by such guesswork. This is not 'mind games' this is 'mindless garbage'.
Is it really aegislash who causes excessive 50/50s anything with a strong suckerpunch can cause a 50/50 like mega maw or bisharp. Volturn can cause 50s as often the opponent has to guess whether the opponent will voltswitch or go for the appropriate move. For example heatran is facing a diggersby they can switch into a flying poke like skarm or Lando but the threat of them or predict the u-turn and stay in either way both players our in 50/50 situation that causes issues. Pokemon has a ton of 50/50's as players often face the threat of something setting up like dd zard and can stay in with bisharp to hit it hard on the predicted dd or lose to a flareblitz. Prediction is needed in a game of pokemon if a few mons need to be predicted more than others due to move pool or threat of setup or ability to volt turn then we as players make what we think our the right plays and live with the consequences we can't just eliminate prediction from the game or ease it by banning certain pokes we need to play the game and continue on out day. If you do not like 50/50s or annoying hax pokemon is not the game for u.
 
Can somebody update the first post with links to "IMPORTANT MUST READ ENTRIES HERE" such as "Why 4MSS actually is a sign of brokenness", that way we won't have this repeat with people asking the same things every 3 pages the way the BP threads did?

As for Aegislash - I can't believe that after being the top, most used pokemon in OU since the start of XY, we're still discovering new sets for it. And we still haven't found a surefire way to counter it. It is, literally, a pokemon that doesn't have counters, thanks to its multiple viable sets. The fact that there isn't even consensus on what the BEST set is for Aegislash has to be a sign - I've seen people post in this thread about how King's Shield and Stance Change is the only thing making it broken, but I've seen people argue that KS is the worst move to run on Aegislash, and you should instead run Sub+Toxic, or 4 attacks... and their arguments all work. But what's even more complex is that all of those different, viable sets can wreck havoc not only because they have entirely different counters, but also because they all could mostly run on the same team. It's not a matter of "Oh, this is a stall team, therefore this Aegislash is probably Sub+Toxic" because you could then get mangled by a KS Aegi, or a win-condition attacking Aegislash, or a Bisharp lure Aegislash.

I'd argue that Aegislash's best move is Shadowball, not King's Shield. The threat of that move coming from that Special Attack puts so much pressure, and by the time you realize that the Aegislash isn't even running Shadowball you're probably too late.
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 173-204 (40 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Amoonguss: 195-230 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
(That's an azum counter amoongus, too)
Foul Play OHKO in offense. Obviously subtoxic doesn't win... What are you going to do?

252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gliscor: 199-234 (56.2 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
In WCS, coming in and nailed with this, it roosts next turn, continues doing so until Aegi leaves. You can threaten an EQ which OHKOs at any point. Non-life orb can't break to 2hko.

These two are almost sure-fire full counters. Chesnaught is probably third-best as even sub toxic ought to fear subChesnaught and his own EQ which outspeeds aegi. Not to mention Chesnaught is generally run on stall so cleric support for sub toxic and chansey doesn't fear subtoxic at all. As said before, Mandibuzz is a very good option outside of subtoxic. Hippo is only bothered by toxic. Mega Venusaur can take it as long as it isn't running low on synthesis. Even checking down on stall isn't that bad with options like heatran around. For crying out loud, AV tornadus-T avoids an LO aegi 2hko threatening his own OHKO. I don't see stall having an issue with counters.

Yes, Aegi has multiple sets... most which aren't used. Learning the set generally takes only Aegi's first move, much like another OU pokemon, Charizard. However, especially for stall which runs long battles, once you learn it, aegi is generally easy to take care of. If suddenly, I had a breloom reveal HP Flying on my Chesnaught, I might be a little worried. I think the threat level is comparable... to me, he has two very viable sets and then multiple lure sets.

On offense, if you're bothering with discussing counters, I don't know what you're doing: I've always been told offense doesn't need counters. As far as I know, I'm not alone in stall having very few issues with him because of the plethora of defensive options to take Aegi.

Can we make this quick and ban the fuck out of Aegislash?

Basically 150 defenses + offenses... the thing had a win rate of like 75% in SPL. I think that says enough. Aegislash limits team building like no tomorrow, you need to start from square 1 if you don't have an Aegislash switch in... which happens often.
Alomomola with 10 uses had an 80% win rate in WCOP week 1. In 50 uses of aegi, his win rate was roughly over 50%. I doubt this is indicative of much.
 
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