Hi. Just going to pop in here and say that the vitriol and ad-hominems need to stop. I didn't infract anyone this time. If it happens again, I will hand out infractions. Keep it civil or don't post at all. Thanks.
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np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition
- Thread starter gr8astard
- Start date
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I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM
formerly Smog Frog
It's not directly bad for stall, its the fact that Aegislash dictates moveslots to a point where mons like Mega Heracross can't run SD lest they get boned by Aegislash. If Aegislash goes, pokemon like CC Mega Pinsir, Mega Medicham, SD Mega Heracross, Mega Gardevoir, and more I can't be bothered to list will utterly shit all over stall. Very sorry, should have been more clear.
It may have strong moves, and it's a good mixed attacker but it's very predictable, once it uses a move it basically gives away every sort of unpredictability it had.
It's also weak against common attack types such as Fire, Ground, Ghost & Dark meaning that Bisharp, Talonflame, Tyranitar, MegaZard X and many more Pokemon can at least 2HKO it. And what about the SubToxic set? Well, there are checks for that set with Sableye and other Prankster users with Taunt and WoW etc.
0- Atk Sableye Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 506-596 (156.1 - 183.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Sableye Night Shade vs. 252 HP Aegislash-Shield: 100-100 (30.8 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 230-272 (70.9 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch/Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 188-224 (58 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And of course Mandibuzz is a very good check as well.
So I've read the first 6 pages of the thread and after a lot of reflection, I have decided on a position. In my eyes, Aegislash has two problematic sets, and those are air-balloon crumbler and sub-toxic. Air balloon aegi is problematic because it gives aeigi a whopping four immunities (ground, normal, fighting, and poison), two of which are some of the game's best attack types. These immunities give aegi plenty of swap in opportunities, and he won't even pop the balloon. Once aegi is out safely, there is not a physical mon alive who can pop his balloon in a safe manner. The only non-contact phys moves I see in common use are EQ (immune due to balloon) and rock type attacks (do I need to even explain why this is a bad idea?). Therefore, the infamous 50/50 rears it's head. You can either try to hit aegi and hope he doesn't king shield, you can setup, or you can swap out, hoping that he does king shield. In each case, the advantage is quite badly in aegis favor regardless of outcome.
If you hit aegis as he king shields, you get your attack halved. At this point, you can either hit him again to pop the balloon, or give up and swap out. Regardless, something is taking a shadow ball to the face. In the former case, aegi takes a nominal amount of damage but loses his item, which is usually a bad trade for taking a shadow ball to the face (not to mention giving one of his allies a free swap in). In the latter case, aegi takes no damage, and escapes at full health with balloon intact. Obviously a bad trade. Now lets say you won the 50/50 and hit him as he shadow balls. Then you deal some damage to him, but if it wasn't SE, it's unlikely KO. He'll then shadow ball, which will almost certainly hit you much harder then you just hit him. You got the balloon and some damage, but now the phys attacker took just as much if not more. An even trade at best.
If you setup and he attacks, then you just took a very powerful attack for nothing. Not a great trade. But at least now you are in position to deal heavy damage back, unless he predicts that and King Shields... Basically setting up is trading your current 50/50 in hopes of getting a better 50/50. Probably the player's best move unless aegi can ohko. Obviously if you switch and he attacks, you will probably have a very unhappy swap in unless you are running mandi or chansey (chansey swaps into aegi quite nicely, though cannot do much more then setup rocks and pass wishes and other non-threatening chansey stuff).
Without air balloon, having your phys mon check aegi is as simple as running a very viable coverage moves. Arguments such as "pinsir needs to run EQ instead of CC just for aegi" hold no water for me. It's just that it is stupid difficult to pop the balloon without taking a shadow ball to the face, minimum.
As for sub-toxic, my argument is similar to air balloon crumbler. Basically, once subs are up (again, has a ton of immunities, this is not hard), it is darn near impossible to safely break. Defensive mons that would normally have a positive matchup get gliscor'd to death (toxic > alternate between subs and protect, dieing much slower then the enemy), while offensive mons will take a shadow ball to the face or just get kings shielded (then take a shadow ball to the face). Unlike gliscor, aegi has non-negligible offensive presence, even uninvested.
In both cases, physical mons of all stripes have a horridly lopsided matchup the vast majority of the time, even when they predict "correctly". The ability to provide support to the team as an incredibly powerful pivot while at the same time having the ability to almost negate an entire side of the attacking spectrum is simply too much in my opinion. If you are going to have positive matchups against the vast majority of offensive mons on one side of the attacking spectrum, then you cannot be providing other, very powerful and game winning support like that.
Because of these two sets, I am currently pro ban. Non-air balloon crumber sets are viable, but not broken imo because EQ. I have yet to see an SD or Atomonize set perform anything other then merely "decent" and are almost certainly not ban-worthy. If you see anything wrong with these arguments, feel free to say so. I have considerably less knowledge of aegi then say.... Scolipede, so I may be missing something important.
*grumble grumble*
If you hit aegis as he king shields, you get your attack halved. At this point, you can either hit him again to pop the balloon, or give up and swap out. Regardless, something is taking a shadow ball to the face. In the former case, aegi takes a nominal amount of damage but loses his item, which is usually a bad trade for taking a shadow ball to the face (not to mention giving one of his allies a free swap in). In the latter case, aegi takes no damage, and escapes at full health with balloon intact. Obviously a bad trade. Now lets say you won the 50/50 and hit him as he shadow balls. Then you deal some damage to him, but if it wasn't SE, it's unlikely KO. He'll then shadow ball, which will almost certainly hit you much harder then you just hit him. You got the balloon and some damage, but now the phys attacker took just as much if not more. An even trade at best.
If you setup and he attacks, then you just took a very powerful attack for nothing. Not a great trade. But at least now you are in position to deal heavy damage back, unless he predicts that and King Shields... Basically setting up is trading your current 50/50 in hopes of getting a better 50/50. Probably the player's best move unless aegi can ohko. Obviously if you switch and he attacks, you will probably have a very unhappy swap in unless you are running mandi or chansey (chansey swaps into aegi quite nicely, though cannot do much more then setup rocks and pass wishes and other non-threatening chansey stuff).
Without air balloon, having your phys mon check aegi is as simple as running a very viable coverage moves. Arguments such as "pinsir needs to run EQ instead of CC just for aegi" hold no water for me. It's just that it is stupid difficult to pop the balloon without taking a shadow ball to the face, minimum.
As for sub-toxic, my argument is similar to air balloon crumbler. Basically, once subs are up (again, has a ton of immunities, this is not hard), it is darn near impossible to safely break. Defensive mons that would normally have a positive matchup get gliscor'd to death (toxic > alternate between subs and protect, dieing much slower then the enemy), while offensive mons will take a shadow ball to the face or just get kings shielded (then take a shadow ball to the face). Unlike gliscor, aegi has non-negligible offensive presence, even uninvested.
In both cases, physical mons of all stripes have a horridly lopsided matchup the vast majority of the time, even when they predict "correctly". The ability to provide support to the team as an incredibly powerful pivot while at the same time having the ability to almost negate an entire side of the attacking spectrum is simply too much in my opinion. If you are going to have positive matchups against the vast majority of offensive mons on one side of the attacking spectrum, then you cannot be providing other, very powerful and game winning support like that.
Because of these two sets, I am currently pro ban. Non-air balloon crumber sets are viable, but not broken imo because EQ. I have yet to see an SD or Atomonize set perform anything other then merely "decent" and are almost certainly not ban-worthy. If you see anything wrong with these arguments, feel free to say so. I have considerably less knowledge of aegi then say.... Scolipede, so I may be missing something important.
*grumble grumble*
I got your post, what I'm saying is that this won't make stall any worse. Stall teams already have ways to deal with the said threats, regardless of Aegislash's presence on the metagame. The team I used, for example, had Slowbro to stop Mega Medicham, Gliscor to stop Mega Heracross, Skarmory to stop Mega Pinsir and IT'S MEGA GARDEVOIR WEAK (oO), meanwhile I had nothing for Aegislash but my Gliscor, which can't even switch in safely if it was below 70% HP. Like I said, I think Aegislash is as problematic to stall as the threats people are listing, and if those start getting more use, then great! We'll have a metagame with more variety and more balanced playstyles. n_n
EDIT: Simply switch in on the Swords Dance, Toxic while he hits me then procede to Protect and Roost or let something die and stall it with Quagsire. Mega Heracross is good vs stall, but it's not invincible and certainly won't be more used than several other megas.
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I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM
formerly Smog Frog
Are you using SDef Gliscor? If I am correct, SD Mega Heracross should 2HKO it w/ rock blast.
CC Mega Pinsir: As compared to running EQ, its counters hardly change. Skarmory still usually wins against it, with Rocky Helm/Whirlwind+Rocks/Counter/Brave Bird (Def drop makes it a guaranteed OHKO) all as options for handling it. Zapdos still counters it. Aerodactyl counters. Furthermore, keeping SR up means Pinsir usually only has to be dealt with a handful of times.
Mega Medicham: Bulky Psychics, mainly Slowbro, and RestTalk Gyarados. Thunder Punch may become more common, as Fire Punch would become useless without Aegislash, however most will go for HJK/Zen/Ice/Fake Out|Sub|Bullet|Baton. Mew, Sableye and Cresselia are counters while Clefable can check. Also sometimes HJK misses :)
Mega Gardevoir: Mega Scizor can counter, and while it hates burn stall teams usually have Heal Bell/Aromatherapy. Also, if it's running Wisp, it's not running CM or Taunt which makes it easier to deal with for stall. Otherwise, Mega Scizor can avoid a 2HKO from Focus Blast (also it's Focus Blast) with some SDef investment, and always has the option to OHKO with uninvested Bullet Punch.
SD Mega Heracross: iunno that's pretty tough.
At any rate, a large number of stall teams do not use Aegislash. There's other ways of dealing with Garde/Cham, plus a lot of chams use Fire Punch because of Aegislash. Aegislash going away would mean offensive teams wouldn't have a safe switch in for them, but I don't see the issue with offensive teams not having a safe switch in for a wall breaker, aka something that is supposed to have next to zero counters.
You greatly underestimate the power of mega Hera he has a great chance to hit ok physically defensive gliscor with pin missle and 2hko quagsire. Sure u can get a toxic off on him but then he goes on an angry rampage through half your team and lets something else finish the job.
Also aegi has a ton of usable counters on a stall team every stall team I have ever used has had something to handle Aegi whether it be mandibuzz, chesnaught, amoongus, heatran, spdef gliscor, assault vest tangrowth, umbreon (yes I used umbreon on a stall team), spdef hippo, and bulky dnite. Sylveon can even handle subtoxic variants 1v1. Any good stall team has at least one if not two pokemon to handle aegis while only a few pokes can handle SD mega Hera or taunt garde on stall.
Edit spooky talked about these stall counters while I was typing.
While I use aegis extensively on my teams, I am on the fence about its ban. Its power level is absurd and shadow ball spam is mindless (Though I admit I abuse it often). However, I feel aegislash is this generation's scizor: Very strong offensively and defensively and stopping many threats but easy to wear down and check. Just like bandzor of last gen, aegis's standard mixed set is predictable though harder to play around. Subtoxic and other lure sets leave aegis vulnerable to RK and are supposed to force a kill at high cost of durability. I do not believe arguments about variability or centralization when aegis is easily read and does not force attackers into sacrificing significant coverage.
The real problem, as Aldaron pointed out is the extremely low opportunity cost to bring it in. For comparison, hydreigon fulfills a similar role of having a spammable stab move in dark pulse and coverage moves to nail switch-ins hard and resistances to key types, but is much harder to use as a pivot. The easy use of aegis and the sheer power and deadly spam of its ghost stab might be what push it over the edge.
I believe this suspect is unprecedented in that a slow bulky attacker is being tested rather than speedy ones like keldeo or genesect or even kyube. We won't know the outcome of an aegis ban until long after the event, but I am concerned about the fate of stall especially with the ridiculous offensive presence already present. While I do not enjoy facing stall, I respect it due to the skill needed to build and pilot it effectively. Aegislash is the epitome of bulky offense and its fall could lead to a meta of insane hyper offense.
The real problem, as Aldaron pointed out is the extremely low opportunity cost to bring it in. For comparison, hydreigon fulfills a similar role of having a spammable stab move in dark pulse and coverage moves to nail switch-ins hard and resistances to key types, but is much harder to use as a pivot. The easy use of aegis and the sheer power and deadly spam of its ghost stab might be what push it over the edge.
I believe this suspect is unprecedented in that a slow bulky attacker is being tested rather than speedy ones like keldeo or genesect or even kyube. We won't know the outcome of an aegis ban until long after the event, but I am concerned about the fate of stall especially with the ridiculous offensive presence already present. While I do not enjoy facing stall, I respect it due to the skill needed to build and pilot it effectively. Aegislash is the epitome of bulky offense and its fall could lead to a meta of insane hyper offense.
Ok, let me make something clear: Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Gardevoir and Mega Mawile are stallbreakers. Their function is breaking stall. It's obvious that stall doesn't deal with these strong powerhouses as well as it deals with something like Mega Tyranitar, but a good stall team has ways to deal with them with or without Aegislash's presence on the metagame. This, together with the fact that Aegislash is as troublesome as they are to stall, makes the "don't ban Aegislash because it'll make stall suck" invalid. Almost every Pokémon on your list can't switch into SubToxic Aegislash (Mandibuzz, Chesnaught, Tangrowth, Hippowdon, Umbreon), and Heatran, Amoonguss and Gliscor are good counters against it, just like Gliscor and Landorus-T are good counters to Mega Heracross and Slowbro is a good counter to Mega Medicham. I'm not saying that they can be handled easily, because they're not supposed to, but a good stall team can deal with them. If Aegislash gets banned people won't start spamming these stallbreakers, because stall is not the only playstyle there is. Even if Aegislash gets banned Mega Gyarados is still going to be better than all of these megas. Also, there's something called ~team matchup~. If you're facing a Mega Gardevoir with a stall team it's obvious that you have a poor matchup, but that doesn't mean we need Aegislash to stop it, otherwise every stall team would have to have one.
Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't those megas considered wallbreakers not stallbreakers because their goal is to smash anything by high offensive stats rather than by making the wall useless by taunt or tricking a choice item. The difference is that a wallbreaker can painfully hurt offensive teams as well as stall if it gets in, while dedicated stallbreakers are for utility to remove specific counters.
As a stall player, I feel obliged to throw in my two cents. First, however, I'd like to draw a comparison for people who seem to have forgotten that Smogon tiering operates in a similar manner to Keynesian economics: it requires regulation in order to function in a safe and efficient manner. For those of you familiar with macroeconomics, the major argument is against this theory is that it is essentially a series of short-term fixes; however, in the words of Keynes, "In the long run, we are all dead." This applies to Smogon beautifully, as in the long run, a new generation will come, and everything we've done in this generation will be nothing more than a precedent by which we can continue to make decisions. In the long run, all that matters is what we do now.
Now--on to Aegislash. I'll briefly recap what I believe to be the essence of the "stall argument".
-Aegislash deters some massively problematic stall breakers: Mega-Heracross, Mega-Medicham (sort of deterred), and Mega-Gardevoir
Stall players seem to believe that a ban would hurt stall as a play style. I agree with this, but only from a vacuum-oriented viewpoint. You forget that stall is built around the principle of "Countering the Meta". When the meta adapts, so do we. Yes--things like Mega-Gardevoir will be a thorn in our sides, but we will deal with it, and if it becomes centralizing, it'll likely get a ban too.
Obviously, the suspect ladder will provide a much more accurate depiction of an Aegi-less meta than the conjecture in this thread, so time is going to tell. I will say this--some of the more respected voices in this community have made their views clear, and I would be surprised to see them change their minds.
All in all, in the name of progress, I vote Ban Aegislash. It is with heavy heart I say this, as Aegislash has truly defined the XY metagame to date.
Now--on to Aegislash. I'll briefly recap what I believe to be the essence of the "stall argument".
-Aegislash deters some massively problematic stall breakers: Mega-Heracross, Mega-Medicham (sort of deterred), and Mega-Gardevoir
Stall players seem to believe that a ban would hurt stall as a play style. I agree with this, but only from a vacuum-oriented viewpoint. You forget that stall is built around the principle of "Countering the Meta". When the meta adapts, so do we. Yes--things like Mega-Gardevoir will be a thorn in our sides, but we will deal with it, and if it becomes centralizing, it'll likely get a ban too.
Obviously, the suspect ladder will provide a much more accurate depiction of an Aegi-less meta than the conjecture in this thread, so time is going to tell. I will say this--some of the more respected voices in this community have made their views clear, and I would be surprised to see them change their minds.
All in all, in the name of progress, I vote Ban Aegislash. It is with heavy heart I say this, as Aegislash has truly defined the XY metagame to date.
Gliscor does not counter mega Hera as Hera can sd and wreck his life. Also unbreon 99% of the time should be running heal bell and can beat sub toxic by himself. This brings me to my next point almost all full stall teams have a cleric and this makes dealing with sub toxic aegi a lot easier than something like LO aegi. I'm not saying everyone one will run these stall breakers I'm just saying greater viability ok these pokemon once kept in check by aegis means more people can afford to use them. Why shouldn't someone be running sd cross on an offensive team. It can ALMOST singlehandedly dismantle most stall teams outside of a few checks like weezing or unaware clef (which aren't that common right now).
This brings me to your next point which is these are only used as stall-breakers mega Cham, mega Hera, and mega garde. Although they are generally nukes or stall dealer they have the capacity to deal with other playstyles such as offence or balance as well due to the few switch ins offensive teams have for them. Mega Hera is bulky as hell and at worst should trade with one of your opponents pokes. Garde has great special defence and can also threaten offensive teams if it finds an opportunity to switch into a pivot or certain choice locked pokes as it's typing gives it an immunity to dragon and 4x resist to fighting which a lot of choice mons carry ie. keldeo, chomp dnite etc. Mega Cham although pretty frail can deal chip damage to most faster pokes with fake out or bullet punch as well as threaten any pivot or support mon these teams may carry. Against more balance teams all three of these truly shine being able to be sent in against a slower defensive mon and threaten to deal a ton of damage to whatever switches in. Mega Hera and mega garde can also take hits against some the offensive pokes on balance teams and nuke them as well.
This greater viability means we will see them way more often. This now means stall needs to either cope with all of these more viable wallbreakers and the current metagame threats. It is extremely difficult to wall these new nukes as well as handle previous threats to stall like Lando and mega dos. This is why I think stall will ultimately die out as the greater number of wallbreakers makes anyone question why they should use stall in the first place. I do not wanna see an entire playstyle nerfed by banning a single pokemon.
Edit to the post above mine
The meta without aegi has way to many wallbreakers for stall to handle them all as each mega Hera, mega Cham, mega garde, have very few counters. For example Cham needs a bulky psychic to wall it which isn't the greatest with all the knock off spam. Next Hera is even worse requiring weezing or unaware clef which further limits teambuilding and last but not least mega garde needs mega scizor with a good amount sdef to be a soft counter as will I wisp screws it over. The selectiveness of each of their counters plus something that can deal with the plethora of powerful setup sweepers and Lando means stall will always have gaps and weaknesses to a certain wallbreakers which really sucks and is unfortunate. I agree with you in saying that banning some of these wallbreakers in the future is a great idea to at least give stall a fighting chance. That is if aegis is banned tho.
Sorry if I am being an alarmist I just don't wanna see one of favourite playstyles disappear.
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I thought we were not supposed to use the whole if Aegi is banned these threats will become broken argument, but if both of our posts get deleted, so be it. It is true that Aegi discourages the use of these Pokemon, but if you are using a stall team without Aegi and you run into one of these stallbreakers, it doesn't help you that Aegi checks these stallbreakers because you are still going to get destroyed by these stallbreakers. To be honest, Aegi is not that great on stall because it has no reliable recovery and provides no utility outside of doing damage. It does not set or clear hazards or provide Wish or cleric support. It does not have Unaware and cannot phaze, so it doesn't do that well at stopping set-up sweepers. If Mega Medicham, Mega Heracross, and Mega Gardevoir make stall an unviable play style and that is considered a problem, then they need to go. Keeping Aegislash in OU just means that if you use Aegi on your stall team, you beat these threats, and if you don't use Aegi you lose. This just means more battles being decided as soon as Team Preview shows the teams which is unhealthy for the meta.
I'm not talking about using aegi on stall I'm talking about because of aegi these stall breakers aren't as viable meaning they aren't seen all the time. Why would someone run mega Hera over mega zard? Aegi is one of the reasons as well as many others. Without aegi these wallbreakers will become more viable and stall will have a harder time.
Next I did not say banning aegi will make these things get banned I just said if aegis does in fact get banned stall will get a significant nerf and depending if the meta shifts one way or another it may be a good thing to unnerf stall by removing a wallbreaker or two to help balance the meta. This of course depends on what happens in the future meta and where the community wants stall to stand.
Next Aegi does play a significant role into several megas viabilities but that does not mean these megas are broken. No aegis means these megas are more viable. More viable should mean that we see them more often. We will see how this no aegi meta is in the future as the suspect does give us enough time to figure this out and the community can go from there depending on how the meta changes.
Just popping in with an aside to note that Aegi cares more about Will-o-Wisp than one would think, especially given that it has no way to block it. Yes, it's main moves are special, but it's two top answers, Bisharp and Mandibuzz, block those moves handily. The moves that Aegislash tends to use to get around them (if it chooses to) are both physical, and therefore nerfed badly by a burn. Also worth noting that it makes King's Shield less attractive as you're basically committing yourself to a 12.5% health drop.
4 Atk burned Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 184-218 (67.6 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Bisharp (and other Dark-types like Umbreon) get quite a bit of breathing room facing a burned Aegislash with which to hurt it (and it's team) however it wants with Pursuit trapping and Knock Off spam. It outspeeds unless it's a Jolly max variant which is usually fairly easy to detect, so it can switch in at least once without fear.
The better option is Mandibuzz, which still only fears Head Smash and maaaaybe SubToxic if it switches in on the wrong move.
252+ Atk Choice Band burned Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 209-246 (49.2 - 58%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This is the strongest possible Head Smash, and with a burn Aegi isn't even guaranteed a 2HKO. Lure sets are only guaranteed a 3HKO with a boosting item. This pretty much cements Mandibuzz as a hard counter to almost everything Aegi can run (except, as mentioned, SubToxic, which it can just Taunt if it gets the opportunity). Now what does this say about Aegi? First of all, it does care far more about burn than some people have been saying, despite being largely a special attacker. Secondly, Mandibuzz is a far more solid answer to Aegislash than a lot of pro-banners have been implying, and Bisharp can threaten it pretty hard as well. All it needs is to be burned, which isn't as difficult as it sounds thanks to users such as Gengar, Rotom-W, Mega Garde and the rare Sableye, most of which actually lure Aegi in quite well. Just a thought that I had :)
tl;dr Burn still hurts Aegislash, even if it doesn't effect it's nuke STAB: The moves it normally uses to answer it's main checks - Bisharp and Mandibuzz - are physical. The chip damage can also discourage use of King's Shield.
"I can't find it's weak point!"
"Oh, there it is"
4 Atk burned Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 184-218 (67.6 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Bisharp (and other Dark-types like Umbreon) get quite a bit of breathing room facing a burned Aegislash with which to hurt it (and it's team) however it wants with Pursuit trapping and Knock Off spam. It outspeeds unless it's a Jolly max variant which is usually fairly easy to detect, so it can switch in at least once without fear.
The better option is Mandibuzz, which still only fears Head Smash and maaaaybe SubToxic if it switches in on the wrong move.
252+ Atk Choice Band burned Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 209-246 (49.2 - 58%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This is the strongest possible Head Smash, and with a burn Aegi isn't even guaranteed a 2HKO. Lure sets are only guaranteed a 3HKO with a boosting item. This pretty much cements Mandibuzz as a hard counter to almost everything Aegi can run (except, as mentioned, SubToxic, which it can just Taunt if it gets the opportunity). Now what does this say about Aegi? First of all, it does care far more about burn than some people have been saying, despite being largely a special attacker. Secondly, Mandibuzz is a far more solid answer to Aegislash than a lot of pro-banners have been implying, and Bisharp can threaten it pretty hard as well. All it needs is to be burned, which isn't as difficult as it sounds thanks to users such as Gengar, Rotom-W, Mega Garde and the rare Sableye, most of which actually lure Aegi in quite well. Just a thought that I had :)
tl;dr Burn still hurts Aegislash, even if it doesn't effect it's nuke STAB: The moves it normally uses to answer it's main checks - Bisharp and Mandibuzz - are physical. The chip damage can also discourage use of King's Shield.
"I can't find it's weak point!"
"Oh, there it is"
As a stall player, I want the ability for my team to win to depend on what I use on my team, not what other players use on theirs. If my ability to win using stall depends entirely on whether my opponent is running Mega Heracross or not, that is unhealthy for the meta. Aegislash may reduce the number of times I run into Mega Heracross, but it doesn't change the fact that Mega Heracross completely destroys my team when I run into it.
If someone chooses to run Zard-X instead of Mega Heracross to beat Aegislash, then I have a much better chance of beating his team, but I have no control over whether my opponent wants to run Zard-X to beat Aegislash or Mega Heracross to beat stall. Keeping Aegislash in OU to check Mega Heracross just causes more games to be decided by team match-up. If Mega Heracross completely beats stall with no way to get around it, then I would rather see it get banned than see Aegislash stay and reduce Mega Heracross's usage and change its sets, because there will still be matches I lose just because Mega Heracross in on my opponent's team.
I know some of the arguments have already been hashed out on this one, so I'll just keep it simple by pointing out the various checks/counters to Aegislash that I've experienced as a user of it and having fought against it on numerous occasions. For the record, I'm not in favor of banning Aegislash.
Prankster+Taunt anything will stop KS or SD usage and either force a switch or make it come out in Blade form making it vulnerable. Got a Malamar w/ Topsy-Turvy? Let Aegi get a SD in and then invert the stats forcing Aegi to switch or get canned by Foul Play.
Most Dark types resist Ghost attacks and Normal-types are immune to them, so the "Aegislash's Ghost moves are powerful" line is out.
Pokes like Meloetta w/Shadow Ball, Diggersby with EQ, or Pyroar with Flamethrower or Fire Blast counter Aegi's Ghost moves nice and easy thanks to type immunity and can return fire with little trouble.
Azumarill only takes half damage because of its Water/Fighting resistance to SacSword, Iron Head, or Flash Cannon. Huge Power helps Azu land nice hard hits against it, especially with Belly Drum.
Everyone wants to NOT talk about DefiantSharp being a good counter when it actually is (and they know it) as it won't be affected by KS (hellur, Defiant?) and can Sucker Punch Aegi the next turn.
Any poke with Drought (Char-Y, Ninetales, etc.) turns it into a melted spoon in two turns, plus resistance to Iron Head and Flash Cannon because of typing.
Water pokes like Gastrodon or Greninja take less damage from Aegi's Steel moves because of type resistance and can give them a nice Earth Power to lower Sp. Def. or Scald which can leave a Burn halving Aegi's attack power.
Ground Pokes like Gliscor will easily withstand Aegi's attacks (High Def.)and return two EQs to plant Aegi back in the rock from which it came.
Got an IB Ferrothorn? Good, because Aegi will take damage for using SacSword or ShadSneak against it! And let's not forget about the pokes with Static, Flame Body, Cursed Body, or any other poke that will affect Aegi's attack capability AND that TWave and "WOW" seems to get past KS without fuss!
I could go on and on with the list of counters/checks, but I'll stop there. From what I'm seeing in this discussion, the main people talking about banning it to make other pokemon like Mega Gardevoir more viable are those looking to use those Megas without a real counter/check against them. That is probably why they really want Aegislash banned, but they've hashed out their reasons here and I'll leave it be.
*Drops Mic*
Prankster+Taunt anything will stop KS or SD usage and either force a switch or make it come out in Blade form making it vulnerable. Got a Malamar w/ Topsy-Turvy? Let Aegi get a SD in and then invert the stats forcing Aegi to switch or get canned by Foul Play.
Most Dark types resist Ghost attacks and Normal-types are immune to them, so the "Aegislash's Ghost moves are powerful" line is out.
Pokes like Meloetta w/Shadow Ball, Diggersby with EQ, or Pyroar with Flamethrower or Fire Blast counter Aegi's Ghost moves nice and easy thanks to type immunity and can return fire with little trouble.
Azumarill only takes half damage because of its Water/Fighting resistance to SacSword, Iron Head, or Flash Cannon. Huge Power helps Azu land nice hard hits against it, especially with Belly Drum.
Everyone wants to NOT talk about DefiantSharp being a good counter when it actually is (and they know it) as it won't be affected by KS (hellur, Defiant?) and can Sucker Punch Aegi the next turn.
Any poke with Drought (Char-Y, Ninetales, etc.) turns it into a melted spoon in two turns, plus resistance to Iron Head and Flash Cannon because of typing.
Water pokes like Gastrodon or Greninja take less damage from Aegi's Steel moves because of type resistance and can give them a nice Earth Power to lower Sp. Def. or Scald which can leave a Burn halving Aegi's attack power.
Ground Pokes like Gliscor will easily withstand Aegi's attacks (High Def.)and return two EQs to plant Aegi back in the rock from which it came.
Got an IB Ferrothorn? Good, because Aegi will take damage for using SacSword or ShadSneak against it! And let's not forget about the pokes with Static, Flame Body, Cursed Body, or any other poke that will affect Aegi's attack capability AND that TWave and "WOW" seems to get past KS without fuss!
I could go on and on with the list of counters/checks, but I'll stop there. From what I'm seeing in this discussion, the main people talking about banning it to make other pokemon like Mega Gardevoir more viable are those looking to use those Megas without a real counter/check against them. That is probably why they really want Aegislash banned, but they've hashed out their reasons here and I'll leave it be.
*Drops Mic*
Obviously Ghost moves have types that resist or are immune to them. Every single type attack has types that resist them. The point is that those types aren't terribly common, and when they are present, they can be hit hard by Aegislash's coverage moves.metrolinerxlz said:
The problem here is that Azumarill's attacks all trigger King's Shield. Azu's typing does not resist Iron Head or Flash Cannon for the record, and even though it is able to resist Sacred Sword, this isn't relevant past the switchin, because the main move Aegislash will be spamming is an unresisted STAB Shadow Ball.metrolinerxlz said:
Bisharp does happen to be one of the better answers to Aegislash, but it still has its problems. Bisharp switchins can easily be taken out with a Sacred Sword on a good prediction. Even in the case of a Bisharp safely switching in, Aegislash has the ability to outspeed even 252 Speed Bisharps as long as the Bisharp is running Adamant, which nearly all are, allowing Aegislash to outrun a Pursuit or Knock Off. Sucker Punch remedies this, but then it becomes a huge guessing game which people are trying to avoid. Will Aegislash switch, or try to Sacred Sword? Will Bisharp Knock Off/Pursuit or Sucker Punch? King's Shield helps scout and somewhat ease this prediction.metrolinerxlz said:
These pokemon are able to hit Aegislash hard, but have trouble switching in on Aegislash. Ninetales is hardly relevant at all in OU, and while YZard can destroy Aegislash 1 on 1, this situation will nearly always end in Aegislash just switching out into one of the many relevant YZard counters in OU. Most likely this will happen after a King's Shield to stall out sun and perhaps gain Leftovers recovery. YZard will not be able to threaten Aegislash many times if it keeps switching out, as Stealth Rock neuters it.metrolinerxlz said:
As for other answers to Aegislash you mentioned, usually the answer will be switching Aegislash back out, as it has a team of 5 other strong pokemon to support it. Nobody is arguing that Aegislash can't be dealt with. The problem lies in that it finds switching in very easy with many, many relevant resistances and immunities including a resistance to SR, and that it hits nearly any switch-in hard.
1. Being forced to run Topsy-Turvy Malamar in OU solely for Aegislash is the definition of overcentralization.
2. Sacred Sword.
3. These are a few obscure mons, and Meloetta would have to run Shadow ball to counter Aegi.
4. Shadow Ball / Shadow Sneak kill Azu, and even then Aegi has King's Shield and takes neutral damage from Azumarill's Water moves.
5. In it's Shield Forme, Sucker Punch won't be doing that much, and Bisharp's usage has gone way down since the Deo-D ban. Bisharp also gets OHKO'd by Sacred Sword.
6. Again, few obscure mons. While Char Y isn't obscure, few run it as a dedicated Aegi counter.
7. Gastrodon is a nice Aegi counter, but Greninja dies to Ghost moves if it changes from Dark-type with Protean. Pretty much the only reason Gren runs Dark Pulse is Aegislash.
8. Gliscor is just 1 Aegi check. Clearly if it has a few checks/counters, it's not broken /saracasm.
9. Status does cripple Aegi, but Ferro doesn't resist Shadow Ball, and Shadow Ball doesn't trigger Iron Barbs.
Also, point, switching Pokemon exists.
EDIT: Sniped by above user.
Wow, some of you are mentioning nonexistant or rare movesets in order to counter anti-ban retorts. Lets stop pretending that Aegislash has 7 move slots and that every set has a 252 / 252 / 252 Ev spread when in reality almost every Aegislash has moveset that utilizes a variation of the moves: King's Shield, Shadow Sneak, Shadow Ball, Sacred Sword, Swords Dance, Flash Cannon, Iron Head, Substitute, or Toxic. Per .usage that's readily available to everyone. To be fair I can't really argue over its Ev spreads despite the top spreads having a negative or neutral speed nature (with 0 speed investment), because there's still over 60% of Ev spreads that aren't specified and are grouped under "Other." But I highly doubt the average ladder player is going run 252Spe Evs on Aegislash because of it's horrid base 60Spe. This means that almost every Aegislash check will outspeed it (Heatran, Garchomp, Mega-Char X/Y, Excadrill, Lando-I/T, Mandibuzz, Talonflame, Gliscor, Greninja, Tyranitar, Mega-Tyranitar, even Meleotta.) Please don't mention Autotomize because no self respecting player runs that set. Kings Shield may be problematic but it's not hard to guess when Aegislash is going to use it when facing any of the Pokemon previously mentioned. Using King Shield also gives the opponent an opportunity to setup with any offensive Aegislash check. Its poor speed makes it very vulnerable to revenge KOed or forced out, and lets be real, there aren't many Pokemon who enjoy switching into Sun Boosted Fire Blast or a LO + Sheer Force boosted Earth Power. Aegislash's ability and poor Speed are easily exploitable. There's also an even bigger underlying problem with banning Aegislash and that's the limiting of offensive Pokemon in OU. All of the previous test resulted in the removal of offensive Pokemon or Pokemon that supported offensive playstyles. I also agree with most of them. I've read something along the lines of "idc if bans limit playstyles, as long as its healthy and fun", that's true but stall is not fun to play against .. at all.
You do realize that SubToxic is one of the more recent sets that popped up during the later stages of the meta; no one even thought of using a set like that in Stage 0 or 1 (or w/e) of OU. The point is that almost everything Aegislash does is good, and viable to an extent (bar Choice items). Some Aegislash responses such as Heatran, Assault Vest Conkeldurr, Mandibuzz, and even Bisharp get absolutely destroyed by a fast Swords Dance set, and it certainly has merit on its own since it is strong enough to blast Skarmory hard with +2 Head Smash and avoid Counter (yet another innovative set). Between SubToxic, standard tank, and fast Swords Dance alone, you need at least two good Aegislash switch-ins per team, and you still have a good chance to lose one of them should you predict incorrectly. Aegislash is so versatile, bulky, and powerful that Aegislash does not adapt to the meta so much as the meta is trying to adapt to it. No other Pokemon can check/switch into like half the damn meta and threaten the majority of it back, and its reliable checks and counters vary greatly from each viable moveset. For example, Balloon Aegislash renders your Ground checks useless without putting one of your mons at risk, and Aegislash threatens a shitton of Pokemon. Aegislash's ability to simply adapt to situations does put it a notch above other Pokemon, though I am still undetermined whether this immediately constitutes 'brokenness'. Probably leaning toward it though considering the arguments put forth here.
Hey, I made a sub/toxic set way back in early November, and it didn't catch on because its other set was so effective with deosharp.
He has a point about the usage stats too. At this point, its hard to know how much of a threat these extra sets will be, and the meta has had 0 realistic time to adapt after the deoxys ban, so we don't really know how pokes will adapt to take on these sets. I've been doing some testing on my own, and haven't had much success (closest to a counter is good old sub coil Zygarde, but I've accepted this will never be an OU staple), so I'm right there with you on the "undetermined" side, but people insist on using arguments centered around how the meta would benefit from a ban, and that's an argument I can't help but disagree with.
My one condolence is; let's face it, counter is an outdated term. If a pokemon has a common counter, it'll need support and we'd laugh at the idea of a suspect test for it. Heck, if a pokemon is easily revenge killed by common OU mons, it doesn't succeed very often. A lack of counters on its own isn't a ban worthy offense.
Really, if we could make a reasonable conclusion on if its versatility is unreasonable, then this test would be easy, let me know if you make a decision and how you came to it, because that would help me out big time
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Yeah usage stats are notorious for being key components in any well-thought out argument on these forums. I'm just glad that the dude on the last page opened my eyes to the true Aegislash counter: Bisharp when Aegislash is burned. Damn I never realized how good of a counter to Aegislash Bisharp is when Aegi is burned. That is simply meta defining.
The fact of the matter is that Aegi can and DOES run many different sets at high levels of play (and no, I'm not talking about the ladder for christsake, I'm talking about tours and high level players). You can tell me Aegi doesn't run Head Smash all you want, but I've run it and it's clutch as fuck with LO and SD to lure Skarm and Amoonguss. You can tell me that specific sets have counetrs, and they do, but until you know what it is, you better pray to God that it's not SD Head Smash when you switch in your Amoonguss or Mandibuzz. And the whole 4MSS thing is also complete bull because until you know exactly what its set is, it IS running all of those moves. That's the whole fucking point.
The fact of the matter is that Aegi can and DOES run many different sets at high levels of play (and no, I'm not talking about the ladder for christsake, I'm talking about tours and high level players). You can tell me Aegi doesn't run Head Smash all you want, but I've run it and it's clutch as fuck with LO and SD to lure Skarm and Amoonguss. You can tell me that specific sets have counetrs, and they do, but until you know what it is, you better pray to God that it's not SD Head Smash when you switch in your Amoonguss or Mandibuzz. And the whole 4MSS thing is also complete bull because until you know exactly what its set is, it IS running all of those moves. That's the whole fucking point.
Very little stall? Through my first few games on the ladder, I had 5 straight matches where I had to face a team of Chansey, Heatran, Skarmory, Gothitelle, Quagsire, and Amoonguss/Mega Venusaur (as much as I hated facing it, I won't deny it was a DAMN good team).
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