spd is speed, just to let u know
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Pokémon Greninja
- Thread starter Hypercut
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The Smogon community abbreviates speed as Spe, not Spd.
It gets cured since those types are immune to those status effects.
Actually it retains the status ailments, js.
Typing does not provide complete immunity to status. It stops the pokemon from getting those status inflicted to it, but it's not immune to the status itself. Abilities like Limber and Immunity do provide both effects, though.
A good example of this would be Ditto switching into a grounded Poison-type while Toxic Spikes is on the field. Ditto gets poisoned even though it then transforms into a Poison-type.
Could have sworn it removed it. Did you try this on Showdown or ingame? Showdown's been wrong before.
i was an idiot at the time and didnt realize it. i thought spd was speed and spD was sp. def
Someone get to the bottom of the fire/poison heal/burn poison fiasco! I don't think it would though. Shit would TSpikes even get absorbed if you change typing after the switch in?
But while were on the potential Protean abuse topic, after trying out Grass Knot over U-Turn since Greninja will usually go first which is basically the same as switching... (Really to gain momentum against the switch is UTurns best use, which is pretty fucking useful at the end of the day) Besides that slight redundancy I also wanted GKnot to counter Rotom-W since Greninja usually seems to be my WoW absorber not affect by the atk drop.
I found myself switching my attacks during the battle even during switches to either hit the switch in for neutral ex. Your lead Greninja vs Lead LandyT obviously they're gonna switch to an ice resist. Dark Pulse usually became the best option on average especially when Aegi was around. Protein also gives you the opportunity to stall walls by changing your type so you resist their attack. Good option if you toss poison/burn around or if you run TTar.
So basically, Greninja really IS a ninja!
But while were on the potential Protean abuse topic, after trying out Grass Knot over U-Turn since Greninja will usually go first which is basically the same as switching... (Really to gain momentum against the switch is UTurns best use, which is pretty fucking useful at the end of the day) Besides that slight redundancy I also wanted GKnot to counter Rotom-W since Greninja usually seems to be my WoW absorber not affect by the atk drop.
I found myself switching my attacks during the battle even during switches to either hit the switch in for neutral ex. Your lead Greninja vs Lead LandyT obviously they're gonna switch to an ice resist. Dark Pulse usually became the best option on average especially when Aegi was around. Protein also gives you the opportunity to stall walls by changing your type so you resist their attack. Good option if you toss poison/burn around or if you run TTar.
So basically, Greninja really IS a ninja!
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There is no fiasco. It is common knowledge that you cannot heal a status by changing type, only prevent the status by changing type before being affected.
Example: greninja vs rotom-w
Greninja uses Hidden Power
Greninja's Protean changes its type to Fire
Enemy Rotom-W uses Will-o-wisp!
It doesn't affect Greninja...
Greninja uses toxic spikes
Greninja is now poison
Rotom w uses toxic!
It as no effect..
He also does not suck up spikes. That happens on the switch in, which he is water/dark on the switch
Example: greninja vs rotom-w
Greninja uses Hidden Power
Greninja's Protean changes its type to Fire
Enemy Rotom-W uses Will-o-wisp!
It doesn't affect Greninja...
Greninja uses toxic spikes
Greninja is now poison
Rotom w uses toxic!
It as no effect..
He also does not suck up spikes. That happens on the switch in, which he is water/dark on the switch
So, I am considering trying something crazy, a sort of specially bulky Greninja spread.
Gamaballa (Greninja) (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Protean
EVs: 236 SpA / 20 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 25 Atk
- Scald
- Extrasensory
- Dark Pulse/ Something else because Aegislash is no longer a thing
- Ice Beam
So the build does some interesting things, mostly it survives against things like Lando and the mirror which would normally cause it problems. I am of the opinion that Timid is too much and that much speed really isn't too necessary, even with Keldeo running around because he out speeds everything else, and so long as a protean goes off first sacred sword doesn't do much.
Final array puts SPA at 301, SPD also at 301, and SPE at 343, which makes it able to survive against specially hitting things enough to get in those 2HKOs that you otherwise didn't last long enough to get in.
The main argument against this is whether or not Focus Sash and Modest is a better combo because reasons, any thoughts?
Gamaballa (Greninja) (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Protean
EVs: 236 SpA / 20 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 25 Atk
- Scald
- Extrasensory
- Dark Pulse/ Something else because Aegislash is no longer a thing
- Ice Beam
So the build does some interesting things, mostly it survives against things like Lando and the mirror which would normally cause it problems. I am of the opinion that Timid is too much and that much speed really isn't too necessary, even with Keldeo running around because he out speeds everything else, and so long as a protean goes off first sacred sword doesn't do much.
Final array puts SPA at 301, SPD also at 301, and SPE at 343, which makes it able to survive against specially hitting things enough to get in those 2HKOs that you otherwise didn't last long enough to get in.
The main argument against this is whether or not Focus Sash and Modest is a better combo because reasons, any thoughts?
Why run AV when Timid LO Greninja can just outspeed most of the unboosted tier. You say it survives hits from Lando and Keldeo but Timid LO Greninja can just outspeed and kill them.
What does Timid let you out speed that you actually see in the meta that you can't out speed with Modest?
It already out speeds most of the unboosted tier, that's the point. Why waste resources on speed when it's in excess at that point?
It already out speeds most of the unboosted tier, that's the point. Why waste resources on speed when it's in excess at that point?
Neutral Greninja is outsped by Timid Keldeo. That means everything of equal / greater speed, such as Terrakion, Lati@s, Gengar, Thundurus, neutral Talonflame, Tornadus-T, Raikou, Alakazam, Azelf, etc... can all outspeed you. And what Greninja wants is speed & power, not bulk. The bulk gained by AV is so extremely situational, but knowing what it can or cannot outspeed is life or death for Greninja. You talk about goddamn AV Calm Greninja (ugh) surviving OHKOes to be able to land crucial 2HKOes, but LO Timid Greninja can and should be OHKOing the aforementioned frail speedy attackers anyway, while bulky Pokemon such as Clefable and what not will still get the upper hand against Ninja (especially yours since it is much weaker). The only kinds of attacks Greninja usually has to worry about are priority attacks, which your Greninja doesn't even offer any extra protection against. Even Shadow Sneak Greninja can at least fend off Mach Punchers, and that is still gimmicky as hell. AV Greninja yields very little benefits at all.
Then is LO the only way to go? Does he gain anything decent for sustain?
Saying Greninja is good for sustain is like saying, for example, that Rock Polish Ferrothorn is an efficient sweeper (or some other analogy along those lines) :P. Do you expect something like Weavile or Staraptor to have good staying power either?
Some Pokemon just aren't meant to fulfill certain roles. Recognize a Pokemon's traits and determine what they can excel in. Greninja is all about the KOing foes in one attack (which Protean makes it extremely easy to do) and taking no damage in return.
Okay, well I just bred up and trained one that has:
Greninja @ [item not yet decided]
31/x/31/31/31/31
Timid Nature
252 Speed, 252 SpAttack, 6 SpDefense
Scald
Ice Beam
Extrasensory
Dark Pulse
Still not sure how I feel about that Life Orb idea, on a poke that has no regeneration, I feel it becomes a liability.
Greninja @ [item not yet decided]
31/x/31/31/31/31
Timid Nature
252 Speed, 252 SpAttack, 6 SpDefense
Scald
Ice Beam
Extrasensory
Dark Pulse
Still not sure how I feel about that Life Orb idea, on a poke that has no regeneration, I feel it becomes a liability.
Replace Scald with Hydro Pump or Surf; you need the power and can't afford to fish for burns due to how bad your bulk is.
Also see the post directly above yours for why Life Orb recoil isn't an issue.
Well if Greninja doesn't manage to KO the opponent, taking too much damage from almost any direct attack would render it a liability anyways, if Greninja isn't KOed outright :/. It is also why people go for Hydro Pump on Greninja. That's pretty much the basis on how most Life Orb attackers work, especially on one as frail as Greninja. And yes, multiple people (myself included) have said that the best way to keep Greninja alive is to KO opponents before they can strike back, which Life Orb and powerful attacks help with. I mean, what else are you going to use with it, Specs? (Hint: that wastes its huge advantage of Protean, which you really do not want.)
Running both Extrasensory and Dark Pulse is a waste in my opinion, you are better off choosing only one(depending if you fear more Venusaur or Mew, afaik there isn't really anything else common hit by either move) and then choosing one beetween Hidden Power [Fire] and Grass Knot; one hits Steel types such as Ferrothorn, but requires specific IVs so it's quite hard to obtain and has measly base power, the other is really powerful against heavy weights(outdamages Hydro Pump against everything that weights more than 200 KG, assuming both do SE/NVE/neutral damage) and ensures you do not lose against bulky waters bar extremely light ones such as Rotom(which is 2HKOed by Extrasensory/Dark Pulse anyway).
Surf / Ice Beam / Grass Knot / Extrasensory / Dark Pulse are the only 5 moves I would consider on Greninja. Hidden Power Fire is acceptable
Scald is too weak and Greninja needs all the power to insure the OHKO. And ... Hydro Miss
The choice between GK/ES/DP depends on your team.
Scald is too weak and Greninja needs all the power to insure the OHKO. And ... Hydro Miss
The choice between GK/ES/DP depends on your team.
Spikes can be situationally useful, hydro pump is the strongest move in ninjas arsenal and is needed for certain ohkoes and 2hkos and shadow sneak is useful if your team gets destroyed by Mach punch.
For what it's worth, IIRC Expert belt is a viable Greninja item for folks who don't like LO recoil (it can matter on u-turn sets, LO + hazards can sometimes kill a u-turn greninja before anything even touches him). He usually needs to hit SE to do real damage anyway.
But yeah, in general life orb is the way to go, that versatility is too good to waste by slapping a choice item on him.
But yeah, in general life orb is the way to go, that versatility is too good to waste by slapping a choice item on him.
Scald is only 10 BP weaker than Surf, but burn hax imo is too good not to use Scald for.
There's also that whole freeze thing.
Dark Pule/Extrasensory is an interesting issue, in OU at least because Aegislash is no longer a thing, but you can definitely still encounter it quite frequently on Wifi.
If I had to pick only one of those moves, Extrasensory wins outright because it counters a lot of those fighters that they throw in to try and wreck Greninja, hits Mega Venusaur, [also, compared to Dark Pulse] hits Gengar, as well as also having flinch hax, though Dark Pulse's is better.
There's also that whole freeze thing.
Dark Pule/Extrasensory is an interesting issue, in OU at least because Aegislash is no longer a thing, but you can definitely still encounter it quite frequently on Wifi.
If I had to pick only one of those moves, Extrasensory wins outright because it counters a lot of those fighters that they throw in to try and wreck Greninja, hits Mega Venusaur, [also, compared to Dark Pulse] hits Gengar, as well as also having flinch hax, though Dark Pulse's is better.
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