Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

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want a few mons unranked like right now.

rotom-h: rotom-h's niche is long gone. it handled genesect and mawile, those are banned. the main issue is just that it's outclassed by rotom-w. it does boast a neat pool of resistances (to electric and grass which rotom-w lacks), allowing it to check a few different threats, but it becomes weak to rock and water. this means it's weak to rocks, which destroys its abilities as a pivot and means it can't deal with cb talonflame consistently enough, it can't beat azumarill, it can't beat landorus-t, it can't beat sand excadrill... it's pretty much impossible to justify rotom-h on a team because despite having a different pool of resistances/weaknesses, rotom-w or a better defensive fire-type such as heatran is pretty much always infinitely better. completely outclassed, practically no reason to use on an ou team, unranked.

hydreigon: this pokemon is just shit which aegislash gone. the whole point was an aegislash check as well as a nice way of checking mega mawile with lo fire blast and not being koed by +2 sucker punch, but that niche is gone. pretty much the reason that it's unviable is just how good the latis are. hydreigon is slow, too slow. hydreigon doesn't have the defensive typing to beat land or keld or zard y, or really much of anything. it's screwed by clefable even more, and screwed by av azumarill much more. sure it can 'wall/stallbreak' except for the fact that clefable exists (the steel moves are shitty options). it doesn't defog, it doesn't healing wish, it doesn't do any of that. it's just a pretty good wallbreaker, and one fucked up by clefable at that, in a metagame where the latis are ridiculously dominant. completely eclipsed, unranked.

diancie: i really hope i don't have to explain why this terrible, the only reason to use it is as a dumb tr lead which isn't enough to rank it, lol.

umbreon: garbage. it gives free switch-ins to terrakion and keldeo, nice. it's passive as shit, it's fucked up by fairies, it doesn't really wall that much...need i really say more? no one uses this on a serious ou team, unranked.

zygarde: this pokemon is terrible. it's supposed to sweep but when is it sweeping any competent team? never. almost dead weight against offense because although it can tank some hits, it's too weak to do much back, dead weight against pretty much every team with a clefable too and fucked by fairies in general. zygarde is outclassed and has a complete inability to sweep competently in the ou metagame. unranked.
I disagree to a few Pokemon.

Rotom-H: It is mostly outclassed by Rotom-W, I agree on that. It still has some kind of merits over Rotom-W, which is mainly the Pokemon it counters. It isn't scared out from Venusaur, Ferrothorn, Thundurus and Charizard Y, which is very good for a pivot. I would compare it to Heatran, because even if they check similar things, Rotom-H has Volt-Switch for momentum and doesn't have a ground-weakness, which is a coverage move on the mentioned Pokemon (bar Ferrothorn and Thundurus) to deal with Heatran. It got worse since the ban of Mawile, but it isn't unusable. Therefore I suggest to drop it to C-.

Hydreigon: The point in using Hydreigon over Lati@s is its movepool and its typing. While Dark/Dragon is definetly not the best typing, it is not Pursuit-weak nor does it fear Knock Off too much. If you don't want (or can) deal with all the Pursuit-trappers in the current metagame Hydreigon is a better option for your team.
The second point is its movepool. Let's be honest, Lati@s offensive movepool is good, but not too great. Without HP there are very common and safe Switch-ins like Tyranitar, Bisharp and Ferrothorn. If you are using Lati@s as a Defogger, you easily get 4MSS, because you can't run Thunderbolt, Surf, Roost and HP Fire/Fighting in one set. Hydreigon on the other hand has access to Earthpower, Fire Blast, Flash Cannon or even U-Turn for momentum to deal with its counters. It can even go mixed with Superpower, Earthquake and Outrage, while Lati@s only usable physical move is Earthquake for Heatran.
I wouldn't worry too much about the speed, since Choice Scarf Hydreigon is pretty much the best set anyways. I know, ScarfChomp is faster, but they have a different movepool and he attacks on the physical side, not special.

Diancie: I saw it once, and it did not really do more than Stealth Rock or HP Fire to catch Scizors off guard. As long as I don't hear good arguments I don't see a good reason to use it. I agree on this one for now, unrank it.

Zygarde: Heavily underestimated, a very good Pokemon in dragon-cores (coil over DD). They are not as good as in gen5, but still usable. D-rank seems fine to me, maybe C- -Rank, but I don't have too much experience with it to argue more about it.

edit: ninja'd xD
About Diancie: Didn't think of Trick Room teams. Agreeing with alexwolf.
 
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Albacore

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On the subject of not switching Shed Shell Skarm in on Knock Off users... That's easier said than done when a large number of threats Skarmory is supposed to switch into (AV Azmarill, Landorus-T, Bisharp...) Not to mention that it's very easy for Magnezone teams to pack a knock off user just to get that shed shell off Skarm, especially Lando-T who helps Magnezone trap Skarm beautifully. This isn't like Chansey who has no business staying in on Knock Off users. Skarmory is supposed to counter Knock Off users, and if it wants to actually beat a well-built Magnezone team, it needs to be backed up by a Knock Off absorber, which is really limiting.

I wouldn't say Chansey necessarily deals with a bigger array of threats than Alomomola. Out of all the A and S-rank threats, Chansey deals with: Greninja, non-mixed Thundurus, Charizard-Y, non-Taunt Heatran, Latias, Latios, Venusaur (kinda), non-Stored Power Clefable, Rotom-W, MAlakazam and Slowbro. Alomomola, on the other hand, deals with Charizard-X, Azumarill, Keldeo, Excadrill, Talonflame, Landorus-T, Garchomp, Mamoswine, MTTar, MGyara, non-taunt MAerodactyl and MScizor and Bisharp depending on Scald burns. Overall, they deal with about the same number of threats. Of course, it doesn't deal with these threats as well as Chansey does, but it does deal with them quite well regardless, and when it comes to doing stuff other than walling things (ie wishpassing), it's actually better than Chansey. Also, the ability to gain health simply by switching out makes it very hard to wear down, unlike Chansey which is quite easy to wear down. I wouldn't hesitate to call Alomomola a better Pokemon than Chansey overral.

Quagsire dropping is something I fully endorse though, I've brought it up many times and I'm kinda tired of repeating myself, so please at least consider it.

I think it might be time to move Latios and Latias to S. These two are extremely dominant forces in the current metagame and nothing short of meta-defining, dealing with key threats such as Keldeo, Landorus-I, and YZard, and providing great utility in general. Latios is very powerful and, if he chooses, has the ability to lure the likes of Heatran and Ferrothorn (though HP Fire is more or less standard), while Latias is a fantastic supporter thanks to Healing Wish and has the bulk to survive quite a few hits from the likes of Thundurus. Their speed tier is fantastic, enabling them to outspeed most of the metagame. They also are the best defoggers in the tier by far, and are seen on almost every offensive team. Their only real flaw is Pursuit weakeness, which grated, is a problem, but it can somewhat be played around, and it's not too hard easy to fit one of the myriad of things that can take advantage of Tyranitar and Bisharp (read : fighting types). Latios and Latias are both very dominant forces in the current metagame, and I feel like the rankings should reflect that.

MPinsir for S is something I've been contemplating a lot recently, but I really don't feel comfortable straight-up nominating it since it's very much a risky Pokemon to use and can't just be slapped on a team, however its ability to seriously damage even its best switchins means it requires far less support than most people think. It's a hole-puncher first and and sweeper second, and can be a nightmare for any team that isn't either full stall or heavy offense. I've personally been having more success with it than any other Mega in this metagame, but I'd like to see what people think of it first before actively supporting a move up for it.

Supporting Umreaon for unranked, it just comes of as outclassed by Sylveon as a cleric, which is itself outclassed by Clefable as a cleric for the most part. Rotom-H moving down makes perfect sense since beating MMaw was its main niche, but it still has a few advantages of Rotom-W as alexwolf mentioned to C- seems fine.
 
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Chansey stayed in A- because it's superior to the rest of the defensive Pokemon found in B+, such as Alomomola, Mandibuzz, and Quagsire, because it handles a much bigger array of threats. Yes it's passive, but so are Quagsire and Alomomola to a degree. Of course one could argue that Quagsire and Alomomola should be dropped to B rank, which is definitely a possibility, but before this happens i can't see those Pokemon in the same rank as Chansey.
Chansey is not superior to Alomomola, the best wish passer in OU. Let me get into the reasons why this is.

Alom's Pros and Cons:
+ Scald
+ Knock Off access (in other words it really isn't passive)
+ Bulky Water thus fairly uncommon weaknesses (bar like Thundy and MVenu)
+ REGENERATOR
+ Can be bulky and still have gradual healing in leftovers.
- Not as big wishes as Chansey
- Takes hit slightly worse
- Does deal with around the same number of threats as Chansey, but just slightly worse.


Chansey's Pros and Cons:
+ BULK
+ HUGE wishes
+ Heal Bell
+ Stealth Rocks
+ Healing outside of wish
- Passive af
- Normal typing
- Is easily pushed aside by all of the Mega wallbreakers. Unlike with Alom, MMedi and MHera don't have to switch in on a Scald and risk everything
- KNOCK OFF SPAM
- Easy to wear down

In other words: I'd much rather run Alomomola as my wishpasser. It's less passive, has a godlike ability, doesn't have a bad defensive typing, Scald, ext. They're about as viable as each other, though, seeing as Chansey has those bigger wishes and bulk, and has other roles it can preform (like setting SR). However, if I was forced to pick one to be more viable then the other, I'd pick Alomomola

Second of all: Quag? Oh god it needs to drop. Mandibuzz? Same thing. But Alomomola? NO. Alomomola does not need to drop. Looking at it's pros, you can easily see it belongs in B+. It's certainly as viable as Victini and Crocune. But does Chansey fit in with the A- mons? With Pokemon like Hippowdon who don't have shitty typing and can still set SR/do their role correctly? Or with Pokemon like Diggersby who have a role that is supported by it's typing very well? Do Chansey's pros greatly outnumber it's flaws? Anyway, let's look at the description of A and B ranks. When talking about A rank, the bold is not true, but when talking about B, the bold is true.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential

It's the flaws part that's most notable. Chansey, if you ask me, does indeed have more notable flaws then some of the A- rank Pokemon that prevent it from being as viable as it could be, with the Mega Wallbreakers being around every corner and the knock off spam. Not to mention being as passive as Chansey is brings problems for a lot of stall teams nowadays. Chansey should be B+ im my opinion.
 
I think it might be time to move Latios and Latias to S. These two are extremely dominant forces in the current metagame and nothing short of meta-defining, deal with key threats such as Keldeo Landorus-I, and YZard. Latios is very powerful and has the ability to lure the likes of Heatran and Ferrothorn (though HP Fire is more or less standard), while Latias is a fantastic supporter thanks to Healing Wish. Their speed tier is fantastic, enabling them to outspeed most of the metagame. They also are the best defoggers in the tier by far, and are seen on almost every offensive team. Their only real flaw is Pursuit weakeness, which grated, is a problem, but it can somewhat be played around, and it's not too hard easy to fit one of the myriad of things that can take advantage of Tyranitar and Bisharp (read : fighting types). Latios and Latias are both very dominant forces in the current metagame, and I feel like the rankings should reflect that.
Only Latios should rise to S rank, because he's much more versatile than Latias (can support Geo/SmashPass teams, can run a surprise Choice Scarf set against rain sweepers and Choice Scarf Terrakion/Keldeo/Garchomp and is an excellent Heatran/Bisharp/Tyranitar lure). Besides that, i honestly think Healing Wish is overrated. If your opponent has a Pursuit trapper, an Azumarill or a Bisharp and is good at prediction games, you're basically playing 5 vs 6 because you can't lure said counter in with Latias. On top of that, Healing Wish is really the only reason you would use Latias over her brother.
 
want a few mons unranked like right now.

rotom-h: rotom-h's niche is long gone. it handled genesect and mawile, those are banned. the main issue is just that it's outclassed by rotom-w. it does boast a neat pool of resistances (to electric and grass which rotom-w lacks), allowing it to check a few different threats, but it becomes weak to rock and water. this means it's weak to rocks, which destroys its abilities as a pivot and means it can't deal with cb talonflame consistently enough, it can't beat azumarill, it can't beat landorus-t, it can't beat sand excadrill... it's pretty much impossible to justify rotom-h on a team because despite having a different pool of resistances/weaknesses, rotom-w or a better defensive fire-type such as heatran is pretty much always infinitely better. completely outclassed, practically no reason to use on an ou team, unranked.
Rotom-H has a few perks over both Rotom-W and Heatran:

It has a few resistances that Rotom-W doesn't, and has quite a few more resists overall, which lets it beat stuff like
  • Electric types: Thundurus, Manectric, Zapdos, Raikou, Magnezone
  • Some Grass types: Beats some of them like Ferrothorn, doesn't give a free Recover to stuff on low health like Venusaur
  • Fairies besides Azumarill: Well, it can take a hit from any of them, though sometimes all it can do back is pivot safely to a revenge killer.
  • Burn immunity: Helps vs things like standard Mew (anyone else find "standard Mew" really ironic?), Entei sometimes, etc
  • A few more wild cards: Charizard Y, Freeze Dry Mamoswine
  • Volt Turn resistance, which helps balance out with the Stealth Rock weakness.
Its Overheat also has its perks over Hydro Pump. Specifically, I found when I was using it that it hit a lot of the same targets I would have otherwise wisped. Like Scizor, Ferrothorn, Bisharp, SR Excadrill, Pinsir, and Breloom. That opens up the opportunity to drop Will-O-Wisp, for example to give it Thunder Wave. Cripples BOTH Charizards, and Lati@s who love to switch in a lot.
  • Its moves: Thunder Wave, Volt Switch, Pain Split, Trick are moves Heatran can't replace.
  • No Fighting or Ground Weakness, which is nice when so many Pokemon can fit that coverage on their moves if they have Heatran problems. Charizard Y, Thundurus, and Pinsir are a few examples.


So it should stay ranked. I don't really care where but it has reasons to be used on a serious team.
 

Clone

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Only Latios should rise to S rank, because he's much more versatile than Latias (can support Geo/SmashPass teams, can run a surprise Choice Scarf set against rain sweepers and Choice Scarf Terrakion/Keldeo/Garchomp and is an excellent Heatran/Bisharp/Tyranitar lure). Besides that, i honestly think Healing Wish is overrated. If your opponent has a Pursuit trapper, an Azumarill or a Bisharp and is good at prediction games, you're basically playing 5 vs 6 because you can't lure said counter in with Latias. On top of that, Healing Wish is really the only reason you would use Latias over her brother.
Gonna have to disagree with you here.

There are plenty of reasons to use Latias over Latios. Healing Wish is one of them, yes, but she also sports much better bulk. And that's the key. Latios can check Venu, Yazard, and Keldeo, but he also suffers from the fact that Sludge Bomb 2HKOes from Venu, and that he can really only switch into Keldeo once if he lacks Recover (YZard can also 2HKO after a bit of prior damage with Blast while being able to live a Draco if healthy enough). Latias doesn't have this problem, as she is free to invest in bulk while still sporting offensive presence. A simple EV spread of 72 HP / 184 SpAtk / 252 Spe Timid gives her additional bulk while still being able to nuke shit with Draco Meteor.

She is also better able to take on things like Medicham (who OHKOes Latios after rox w/ HJK), Thundurus, Megazam, Landorus, Manectric, Raikou, Rotom, and Terrakion simply because her base 130 SpDef allows her to do so. She also has more room to run Recover over a coverage move due to her more defensive nature.

Also there's a fun CM set that late game sweeps which is something Latios can't do.

If one of the twins moves up, so should the other. I support the Latis going to S.
 

alexwolf

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On the subject of not switching Shed Shell Skarm in on Knock Off users... That's easier said than done when a large number of threats Skarmory is supposed to switch into (AV Azmarill, Landorus-T, Landorus-I Bisharp...) Not to mention that it's very easy for Magnezone teams to pack a knock off user just to get that shed shell off Skarm, especially Lando-T who helps Magnezone trap Skarm beautifully. This isn't like Chansey who has no business staying in on Knock Off users. Skarmory is supposed to counter Knock Off users, and if it wants to actually beat a well-built Magnezone team, it needs to be backed up by a Knock Off absorber, which is really limiting.

I wouldn't say Chansey necessarily deals with a bigger array of threats than Alomomola. Out of all the A and S-rank threats, Chansey deals with: Greninja, non-mixed Thundurus, Charizard-Y, non-Taunt Heatran, Latias, Latios, Venusaur (kinda), non-Stored Power Clefable, Rotom-W, MAlakazam and Slowbro. Alomomola, on the other hand, deals with Charizard-X, Azumarill, Keldeo, Excadrill, Talonflame, Landorus-T, Garchomp, Mamoswine, MTTar, MGyara, non-taunt MAerodactyl and MScizor and Bisharp depending on Scald burns. Overall, they deal with about the same number of threats. Of course, it doesn't deal with these threats as well as Chansey does, but it does deal with them quite well regardless. Also, the ability to gain health simply by switching out makes it very hard to wear down, unlike Chansey which is quite easy to wear down. I wouldn't hesitate to call Alomomola a better Pokemon than Chansey overral.
Skarmory is not supposed to deal with Landorus. Also, AV Azumarill is not hard at all to deal with in for defensive teams, so you are going to have other Pokemon to take care of it. Not being able to switch into Bisharp and Landorus-T reliably is a real concern though, so you are right about this. Still, Bisharp can be handled with quite a few other defensive Pokemon, such as Mega Charizard X, Quagsire, and Gliscor.

As for Chansey, the difference is as you said that it deals with stuff much more reliably. Alomomola can fail to deal with many of those threats, such as BD Azumarill, CM Keldeo, Taunt Talonflame, SD Garchomp, SubDD Mega Gyara, SD Bisharp, and SD Mega Scizor. It can beat some of them if Scald burns, and it outright loses to some others, such as Taunt Talonflame and SubDD Mega Gyarados. Also, you left out some important threats that Chansey deals with, such as Taunt-less Mega Gardevoir, LO Outrage-less Kyurem-B, and TG + 3 attacks Manaphy. I agree that Alomomola gives more room for aggressive play thanks to Regenerator, but Chansey more than makes up for it with her ability to handle more threats and more reliably, as well as provide Heal Bell and SR support. Ultimately, i think that Chansey is a better defensive Pokemon than Alomomola, but maybe that's just me.

Don't worry though, it's still very possible that those two will drop, i just wanted a little more elaborate discussion about them.
 
Hate to be that guy but I don't think Latios or Latias should move up to S Rank. For one, the most important flaw, is they're walked on by Pursuit / Sucker Punch. Sure you can create some mindgames, but it's not likely for either to be taking on a Bisharp without running Hidden Power Fighting (which you shouldn't). Plus, they're type coverage is shitty, Dragon / Psychic is resisted by all Steel-types in OU (iirc) and Draco Meteor forces them to switch while Dragon Pulse is too weak. I'll probs add more later but that's just something to think about.
 
Crawdaunt: Stays in C+
Ok so I'd like an explanation for this. Crawdaunt might be slow and frail, but it's just about the only Pokemon in OU that doesn't have a single switch in. Not one. If you switch this in safely just one or two times in one game it'll do it's job, which is to smash things. Not to mention its Aqua Jet is easily taking at least 40-50% off almost any offensive mon. So yeah, it's a pretty neat Pokemon that imo deserves to rise and I haven't seen any arguments against moving it up a rank.
 
Skarmory is not supposed to deal with Landorus. Also, AV Azumarill is not hard at all to deal with in for defensive teams, so you are going to have other Pokemon to take care of it. Not being able to switch into Bisharp and Landorus-T reliably is a real concern though, so you are right about this. Still, Bisharp can be handled with quite a few other defensive Pokemon, such as Mega Charizard X, Quagsire, and Gliscor.

As for Chansey, the difference is as you said that it deals with stuff much more reliably. Alomomola can fail to deal with many of those threats, such as BD Azumarill, CM Keldeo, Taunt Talonflame, SD Garchomp, SubDD Mega Gyara, SD Bisharp, and SD Mega Scizor. It can beat some of them if Scald burns, and it outright loses to some others, such as Taunt Talonflame and SubDD Mega Gyarados. Also, you left out some important threats that Chansey deals with, such as Taunt-less Mega Gardevoir, LO Outrage-less Kyurem-B, and TG + 3 attacks Manaphy. I agree that Alomomola gives more room for aggressive play thanks to Regenerator, but Chansey more than makes up for it with her ability to handle more threats and more reliably, as well as provide Heal Bell and SR support. Ultimately, i think that Chansey is a better defensive Pokemon than Alomomola, but maybe that's just me.

Don't worry though, it's still very possible that those two will drop, i just wanted a little more elaborate discussion about them.
I'm quite sure Chansey ALSO loses to CM Keldeo, Taunt Talonflame, SD Garchomp, SubDD Mega Gyara, SD Bisharp, and SD Mega Scizor, or at least most of them. Js. Chansey is so passive to half of the things here as some of them can't even be poisoned/can't even be para'd/can Roost off the damage from Seismic Toss. At least Alomomola has a shot at it with Scald. Alom does deal with threats Chansey strait up can't as well, like Excadrill.

If you look at my post, you'll be able to see just how Chansey comes under the description of a B+ Pokemon and not an A- one. In your post you've mentioned what Chansey has over Alom in detail, and I find it unfair that you haven't done the opposite as well, so I will do it for you.

It's not just Regenerator. A combination of better typing, access to Knock Off and Scald to make it less passive and an amazing ability for stall in the current metagame ultimately balances out the disadvantages Alom has over Chansey. In other words, they are about as viable as each other and should be the same rank. As I've already gone to say how Chansey fits B+ and not A-, we can assume it's Chansey who has to move down and not Alom who has to move up.
 
ok yeah its been really hard for me to adjust to the new lower standards of S rank, but I am going to put my foot down with both of the latis, obviously I am not saying they arent good, but they both dont have a move nearly as spammable as keldeos scald(which is imo the only reason its S rank), they usually give free switchins to many steel/fairy types,they have pretty poor stab coverage and are forced to pick one coverage move that is usually only able to hit one of their counters, and especially with latias I just find it hard to pick 4 moves because defog and healing wish are big reasons to use it, but then draco meteor is a must and you are only left with one move for coverage. I mean I could go on but I would like to here a better argument for why they should go S rank before I waste my (figurative) breath.

And besides as we have mentioned I would like to focus on the lower tiers, Ill address a few of the mons Jukain mentioned, I agree with all of his assessments except for zygarde and hydreigon. Ill start with hydry

so the only reason I think unranking hydreigon is a little harsh is because it can run an effective scarf set that outspeeds damn near everything in the tier and has access to u-turn, and as most of us have seen, using volt-turn is very effective at getting mons like megacham, cross, gardevoir etc... into battle safely and hydreigon can also help with mew to an extent being the best special dark attacker we have access to (I think). I mean yes it only has this one set that can be useful but I think it still deserves a spot in OU and can find a niche on volt-turn teams, or just a team that needs a unique/specific scarfer

Zygarde...oh zygarde I use to be on the same page in regards to him, I use to think he was just a really shitty version of garchomp that had access to a weak-ass extremespeed but I have since found it to be a viabel-enough bulky sweeper and it has enough bulk and good enough typing to setup on a decent amount of popular mons in the tier, I think its merits allow it to remain ranked.
 

alexwolf

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Ok so I'd like an explanation for this. Crawdaunt might be slow and frail, but it's just about the only Pokemon in OU that doesn't have a single switch in. Not one. If you switch this in safely just one or two times in one game it'll do it's job, which is to smash things. Not to mention its Aqua Jet is easily taking at least 40-50% off almost any offensive mon. So yeah, it's a pretty neat Pokemon that imo deserves to rise and I haven't seen any arguments against moving it up a rank.
Mega Venusaur with some Speed and Keldeo are two very common Pokemon that are able to switch into Crawdaunt at least once. In general i didn't see really good arguments about raising it, which is why it didn't happen.
I'm quite sure Chansey ALSO loses to CM Keldeo, Taunt Talonflame, SD Garchomp, SubDD Mega Gyara, SD Bisharp, and SD Mega Scizor, or at least most of them. Js. Chansey is so passive to half of the things here as some of them can't even be poisoned/can't even be para'd/can Roost off the damage from Seismic Toss. At least Alomomola has a shot at it with Scald. Alom does deal with threats Chansey strait up can't as well, like Excadrill.

If you look at my post, you'll be able to see just how Chansey comes under the description of a B+ Pokemon and not an A- one. In your post you've mentioned what Chansey has over Alom in detail, and I find it unfair that you haven't done the opposite as well, so I will do it for you.

It's not just Regenerator. A combination of better typing, access to Knock Off and Scald to make it less passive and an amazing ability for stall in the current metagame ultimately balances out the disadvantages Alom has over Chansey. In other words, they are about as viable as each other and should be the same rank. As I've already gone to say how Chansey fits B+ and not A-, we can assume it's Chansey who has to move down and not Alom who has to move up.
The point is that Chansey deals with the Pokemon it checks much more reliably than Alomomola, which loses to many Sub users or Pokemon that can boost if Scald doesn't burn. Also, Knock Off or Scald doesn't matter, both are weak as fuck and don't prevent Alomomola from becoming set up bait for set up sweepers, unlike Chansey which at least has a 100 BP move to break Subs and 3HKO most offensive Pokemon. Anyway, not interested in further debating this because it's a pretty subjective matter: If you thing Scald is enough to deal with set up sweepers and don't find it unreliable then good for you, but for me it's a huge downside whenever i consider using Alomomola.
 
I'm quite sure Chansey ALSO loses to CM Keldeo, Taunt Talonflame, SD Garchomp, SubDD Mega Gyara, SD Bisharp, and SD Mega Scizor, or at least most of them. Js. Chansey is so passive to half of the things here as some of them can't even be poisoned/can't even be para'd/can Roost off the damage from Seismic Toss. At least Alomomola has a shot at it with Scald. Alom does deal with threats Chansey strait up can't as well, like Excadrill.

If you look at my post, you'll be able to see just how Chansey comes under the description of a B+ Pokemon and not an A- one. In your post you've mentioned what Chansey has over Alom in detail, and I find it unfair that you haven't done the opposite as well, so I will do it for you.

It's not just Regenerator. A combination of better typing, access to Knock Off and Scald to make it less passive and an amazing ability for stall in the current metagame ultimately balances out the disadvantages Alom has over Chansey. In other words, they are about as viable as each other and should be the same rank. As I've already gone to say how Chansey fits B+ and not A-, we can assume it's Chansey who has to move down and not Alom who has to move up.
Alomomola is just as passive as Chansey lol. Your first argument is invalid because Chansey =/= Alomomola as they deal with entirely different threats. The argument was that Alomomola relies on Scald burns to beat half the threats its supposed to beat 1v1, and if it doesn't get it (which until further notice is still 70% of the time) then Alomomola just loses. Observe:

0 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 50-60 (14.6 - 17.5%) -- possible 6HKO

Yeah that's a STAB super-effective hit. You're pretty much banking on hax everytime you use Scald, which is not very good on a Stall team where you need to defeat certain threats as reliable as possible. Chansey does a pretty good job at this because it doesn't rely on hax to wall stuff. Also Momo is setup fodder for pretty much everything with Substitute, even frail stuff like Mega Medicham while Chansey at least breaks the Sub of anything below fully invested base 100's (read: most of the metagame).

You also say that Alomomola is hard to wear down which is true to an extent due to Regenerator, but its also vulnerable to Toxic unlike Chansey who has Natural Cure. Toxic means you really can't stay in for long because Momo relies on Wish+Protect to be able to stay in and take hits, so the damage racks up quickly. Alomomola also turns out to be Knock Off fodder frequently which limits its recovery quite a lot especially with residual damage like SR and Sand, which are very common.

Alomomola is a pretty cool mon, but Chansey kind of defines Stall. Without Chansey stuff like Greninja, Thundurus, Zard Y become a pain to deal with which is kind of dumb when Chansey provides so much support and is pretty much a full stop to the common sets of those pokemon (and many others as well). On that note, when I see Momo on Stall it's usually with Chansey because double Wish-Passing is good and Momo appreciates Cleric support. I don't think any changes are needed as far as rankings go personally.

EDIT: semi-ninja by alexwolf :[
 
A small thing to remind: Scald is nice, but it's not Will-o-Wisp, especially on a pokemon with base 40 Special Attack. If it somehow fails to score a burn in an entire match...
 
Alomomola is just as passive as Chansey lol. Your first argument is invalid because Chansey =/= Alomomola as they deal with entirely different threats. The argument was that Alomomola relies on Scald burns to beat half the threats its supposed to beat 1v1, and if it doesn't get it (which until further notice is still 70% of the time) then Alomomola just loses. Observe:

0 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 50-60 (14.6 - 17.5%) -- possible 6HKO

Yeah that's a STAB super-effective hit. You're pretty much banking on hax everytime you use Scald, which is not very good on a Stall team where you need to defeat certain threats as reliable as possible. Chansey does a pretty good job at this because it doesn't rely on hax to wall stuff. Also Momo is setup fodder for pretty much everything with Substitute, even frail stuff like Mega Medicham while Chansey at least breaks the Sub of anything below fully invested base 100's (read: most of the metagame).

You also say that Alomomola is hard to wear down which is true to an extent due to Regenerator, but its also vulnerable to Toxic unlike Chansey who has Natural Cure. Toxic means you really can't stay in for long because Momo relies on Wish+Protect to be able to stay in and take hits, so the damage racks up quickly. Alomomola also turns out to be Knock Off fodder frequently which limits its recovery quite a lot especially with residual damage like SR and Sand, which are very common.

Alomomola is a pretty cool mon, but Chansey kind of defines Stall. Without Chansey stuff like Greninja, Thundurus, Zard Y become a pain to deal with which is kind of dumb when Chansey provides so much support and is pretty much a full stop to the common sets of those pokemon (and many others as well). On that note, when I see Momo on Stall it's usually with Chansey because double Wish-Passing is good and Momo appreciates Cleric support. I don't think any changes are needed as far as rankings go personally.

EDIT: semi-ninja by alexwolf :[
The problem with saying that any stall Pokemon is easily worn down by status and not residual damage like rocks and sand (which goes for Chansey as well seeing as it doesn't have leftovers in the first place lol) is the fact that every single stall team has to have some sort of Heal Bell user, or it just doesn't work. Before you say that's team support for Alomomola and thus it should be lowered for needing more support, the exact same thing goes for every single stall man bar Chansey who uses the move anyway, or Magic Guard Clefable, who ALSO uses the move anyway.

Chansey is useful on stall. I can't stress that enough. But I merely wanted to point out that Chansey is not any more VIABLE then Alomomola, and viability is comparable. I get it that Scald is banking on hax, but then you could argue that goes for every single defensive scald user. It's not exactly meant to do damage, if it were we'd opt out for Surf. It is on there FOR the burn chance. You can say it's bad to rely on Scald, but it's better to have it then to not have it, as defensive Pokemon love the burn chance to make stalling easier. Also bear in mind Alomomola has access to the ever so useful Knock Off. Also, ofc Scald is going to 6HKO a 100/120 specially bulky Pokemon in sand. IT'S SO BULKY AND ALOM IS WEAK AF. If you wanted to prove your point you'd use a calc like this: 0 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Garchomp: 55-66 (15.4 - 18.4%) -- possible 6HKO.

Chansey does not define stall. Sure, it's good on stall, in fact it's great (options are quite limited on stall tbh) but it has no way to beat any of the mega wallbreakers 1v1 (assuming MGarde runs Taunt), which, as I've said, very bad news for a Pokemon on stall these days. I'd rather have a 30% chance to cripple 2 of them than a 0% to beat 2 of them 1v1 and a slight chance to beat 1 of them depending on the set. Chansey has it's pros, Alomomola has it's pros, and I'm still yet to see something that proves me Chansey's pros greatly outweigh it's cons, which is what it needs to be A-.
 
Rotom-H - C - Rotom-H is great on balance. Use it's Scarf set. With Scarf and Trick, Overheat and Thunder Wave you have a tool for crippling walling and threatening Steels (Wish Jirachi, Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor) and paralyze fast sweepers. Overheat is a clear OHKO to Thundurus with Stealth Rock and if it wastes a turn to Taunt or Nasty Plot its dead. It also easily revenges Ice Greninja. It's also the perfect counter to Magnezone since you'll outspeed scarf variants too. Trick screws defensive Heatran, Chansey and Slowbro. While stealth rock makes it a poor bulky pivot like Rotom-W, Rotom's STAB threatens so much more and it has a definable niche. It can very reliably cripple/revenge two members of the enemy's team, and if the enemy has no Ground types than Volt Change is always a safe bet. Use it in this manner and you'll be pleased with the results rather than trying the bulky pivot route. Being immune to WoW and Thunder Wave at the same time is also a boon.
 
While I'm not sure Mega Pinsir is S-Rank, I do think it has a legit shot at moving up. Either Ground/Flying or Fighting/Flying is fantastic two moves coverage, and once it gets to +2 it really wrecks everything. I mean at +2, Return 2HKOs defensive Zapdos (not even counting SR), Close Combat 2HKOs Skarm, Lando-T really can't stop it, even Mega Manectric can't survive with enough to not get picked off by Quick Attack the next turn. Now, this sounds very similar to his wall-breaking Mega friends in the A and A+ rank. The difference is that Mega Pinsir reps 105 base speed, which is enough to consistently outspeed Garchomp, Landorus-I and a few others. It also has access to what is essentially a 78 BP Quick Attack, allowing him to get by Greninja and some other similar fast-and-frail types. It does have drawbacks, namely it needs a Talonflame check and hazard support, but other S-Rank threats have those issues. Also, pretty much every decent OU team has those two things regardless of whether it is running Mega Pinsir or not. So I can see the case for Mega Pinsir moving up even if it may not be the right time for it.

I'm fine with keeping Crwdaunt in C+ even though I'm an avid user of it, but Mega Venu has to speed creep quite a bit to outspeed Craw. I think it's 60 EVs or so to outpseed Adamant Craw, which isn't exactly peanuts. That's quite a bit of HP or SpA you're losing.

Also, I believe that the Latis are equal in terms of ranking, regardless of where that ranking is. Latios is the more offense of the two, and is the better one to use a LO, Scarf or Specs set. Memento can can provide niche support on Smeargle passing teams, although I really don't think that contributes viability at an A/S Rank level. Latias isn't really a whole lot different offensively as it's being made out to be. Latias is also the go to one if you want to use a Lati in a checking/defensive capacity. If I want to use a Lati to check Char-Y, Keldeo, Mega Manectric or Thundurus, you want to use Latias. Fast Healing Wish is also an outstanding niche, allowing you to essentially play 7 on 6 in some matches, especially against Stall teams that can't hit Latias hard and fast. Maybe I'm exaggerating a little, but the ability to fully heal a weakened, burned or paralyzed Mega Gyara/Mega Heracross/Mega Tyranitar/Char-X/Keldeo/Terrakion etc. to full health mid-battle is amazing. Even if nothing needs the Wish when Latias is about to go, it can eliminate some RKers and checks that come with the disclaimer "if it has some chip damage or is below 75% health." I mean if your opponent sacks something to get Mega Gyarados 60%, and then brings in something that forces it out under those conditions, healing said Mega-Gyara later can win the battle from there. I think they should be tied together in their respective rankings.

tl;dr, Mega Pinsir is really good, and Latias as a defense and support threat is equal to Latios as an offensive threat imo.
 
Ok what the fuck is Zapdos doing in B? It needs to drop ASAP. B-/C+ please.

First off, the only rock setter it beats is Ferrothorn. That's it. Second of all, its rock weak, so that also makes it bad at defogging. The real kicker is the fact that Keldeo is bulkier than this thing. It relies on its typing to beat anything. If you run a physical defensive spread, all it beats is Mega Pinsir and Mega Scizor. While they are big threats, those alone don't cut it. Specially defensive only beats Landorus afaik, and its not even the best Lando counter available. And lastly, it can only run 2 coverage moves. It desperately wants Heat Wave and HP Ice with its Electric STAB, because then it could actually beat a rock setter or two. But NOPE. Drop this bird down please, better Electric- types, defoggers, and Pinsir answers exist.
 
I'd like to nominate Metagross to the viability rankings. After the Gen shift, Metagross was expelled to UU because of its new weaknesses to Dark and Ghost, as well as some new threats like both Mega Charizard and Talonflame. However, OU just banned two of the Pokémon with which it faced competition, namely Aegislash and Mega Mawile, both which ran moves that could KO it easily. After these bans, I feel like Metagross can return to OU and use its albeit small Assault Vest niche. I haven't used it much since before its demotion, so feel free to take this with a grain of salt; however, I feel like there is just enough room to squeeze the quad core supercomputer into C- or D rank, if at all possible.
 
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Hate to be that guy but I don't think Latios or Latias should move up to S Rank. For one, the most important flaw, is they're walked on by Pursuit / Sucker Punch. Sure you can create some mindgames, but it's not likely for either to be taking on a Bisharp without running Hidden Power Fighting (which you shouldn't). Plus, they're type coverage is shitty, Dragon / Psychic is resisted by all Steel-types in OU (iirc) and Draco Meteor forces them to switch while Dragon Pulse is too weak. I'll probs add more later but that's just something to think about.
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 185-218 (68 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

you're pretty much forced to sucker punch if you switch in or risk dying.
 
Ok what the fuck is Zapdos doing in B? It needs to drop ASAP. B-/C+ please.

First off, the only rock setter it beats is Ferrothorn. That's it. Second of all, its rock weak, so that also makes it bad at defogging. The real kicker is the fact that Keldeo is bulkier than this thing. It relies on its typing to beat anything. If you run a physical defensive spread, all it beats is Mega Pinsir and Mega Scizor. While they are big threats, those alone don't cut it. Specially defensive only beats Landorus afaik, and its not even the best Lando counter available. And lastly, it can only run 2 coverage moves. It desperately wants Heat Wave and HP Ice with its Electric STAB, because then it could actually beat a rock setter or two. But NOPE. Drop this bird down please, better Electric- types, defoggers, and Pinsir answers exist.
Uhh, i think Zapdos' position is pretty just as it is, since it pretty much stops bird spam in its tracks without getting trapped by mag.
'Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.'
I don't think there is another mon which defensively checks bird spam like zapdos does, which is higher ranking wise. Skarm isn't exactly a mon of note with mag being a pretty popular mon in bird spam cores atm. Yes, zapdos does have an SR weakness, but i think you are also overlooking the fact that it has a base 100 speed, reliable recovery in roost, the option of defogging, extremely good SpAtk for a wall, access to discharge/heat wave, double status and a pretty solid typing. All in all, i think zapdos deserves its B ranking as it certainly has its uses in the meta
 
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252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 185-218 (68 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

you're pretty much forced to sucker punch if you switch in or risk dying.
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Bisharp: 123-146 (45.2 - 53.6%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO

Don't forget AV Bisharp is a legit set as well, and it does perfectly counter it. And from my experience it'll go like this:
  • Bisharp v Latios
  • Latios will use Draco Meteor to avoid Pursuit
  • Latios will switch predicting a Sucker Punch
It's not like it's uncommon for this to happen anyways. Also, Pursuit is a solid 2HKO anyways and after SR + 1 round of LO then Pursuit has a chance to KO regardless if Latios switches or not. And if you use Draco Meteor twice then you're at -4 and p much anything can setup in Latios' face at this point.
 
Mega Venusaur with some Speed and Keldeo are two very common Pokemon that are able to switch into Crawdaunt at least once. In general i didn't see really good arguments about raising it, which is why it didn't happen.
Keldeo can only switch in one time, but I guess that point is valid. As @Celticpride034 says, Venusaur needs 60 speed EV's to outspeed, which is compromising its bulk to deal with one quite uncommon Pokemon. I've posted about a Crawdaunt raise several times with much support and no opposition from other users due to it being a stellar wallbreaker that can also hold its own against offense by one-shotting Exca with Aqua Jet and so on. It has a good matchup vs. sand in general, works great on rain, and is the best TR abuser in the tier.
 

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Keldeo can only switch in one time, but I guess that point is valid. As @Celticpride034 says, Venusaur needs 60 speed EV's to outspeed, which is compromising its bulk to deal with one quite uncommon Pokemon. I've posted about a Crawdaunt raise several times with much support and no opposition from other users due to it being a stellar wallbreaker that can also hold its own against offense by one-shotting Exca with Aqua Jet and so on. It has a good matchup vs. sand in general, works great on rain, and is the best TR abuser in the tier.
60 evs is standard on offensive megasaur to outspeed most crocunes

the problem in general with crawdaunt is that while it has great power, there is simply so little reason to use it over azumarill even with that. yeah, it's strong, but it doesn't have the typing or the bulk that make azumarill such a good pokemon, and outside of trick room it is usually an opportunity cost to use crawdaunt over azumarill.

'has a good matchup vs sand' so does azumarill, except it has a better one because it can actually tank hits and beat a lot of the mons 1v1.

'works great on rain' except for the fact that i could be using a swift swimmer or keldeo that has a better matchup vs offense/isn't revenge killed by so many things

'best tr abuser' hardly a point to rise it, all of the tr abusers are in lower ranks so by that logic crawdaunt should drop (which it actually should, down to c or so)
 
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Bisharp: 123-146 (45.2 - 53.6%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO

Don't forget AV Bisharp is a legit set as well, and it does perfectly counter it. And from my experience it'll go like this:
  • Bisharp v Latios
  • Latios will use Draco Meteor to avoid Pursuit
  • Latios will switch predicting a Sucker Punch
It's not like it's uncommon for this to happen anyways. Also, Pursuit is a solid 2HKO anyways and after SR + 1 round of LO then Pursuit has a chance to KO regardless if Latios switches or not. And if you use Draco Meteor twice then you're at -4 and p much anything can setup in Latios' face at this point.
what if the Latios user predicts the Bisharp & uses HP fire instead? It still 2HKO's AV variants. and if you try to predict the switch out you risk dying, again.

Tyranitar is pretty much the only "safe" switch into Latios. He has the ability to eliminate every other one of his "counters" with the appropriate coverage move or Trick.
 
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